Photoshop CS4 is a disaster

[ProA...@adobeforums.com]

I'm am just at a loss of words.

The performance has gone so out the window that i cant even begin to imagine why Photoshop CS4 is considered a "FINAL" version.

On a Vista 64, quadcore system with 8 gigs of ram and a Geforce 8800 GTX... I can not effectively run photoshop CS4 smoothly. It is useless.

Color curves interactivity - Extremely slow interaction.
Levels interactivity - Extremely slow interaction
Brush drawing speed - Lagged and SLOW. (Its faster in software mode but still slow)

Maybe its because i'm on a 30inch monitor at 2560x1600?

DL the demo... check this out for yourself, because this is just ridiculous.

WOW.. simply WOW.. What were you thinking? I'm glad i tried the demo because if you thought CS3 was slow.... hahahahahaha get ready to be very pissed off.

[John Joslin]

Photoshop CS4 is a disaster

No it's not!

Loads and runs fast; wonderful new features. A photographer's dream!

(No affiliation with Adobe other than as a satisfied user.)

[Free...@adobeforums.com]

Same here. A few startup glitches that quickly got sorted out, and now I wouldn't dream of going back to CS3. It's faster than CS3, and it handles everything I throw at it without blinking. Another great workhorse.

ProArtist: This is bad timing. We've just had our fill with two other posters who refused to even look at their own systems, and just automatically blamed everything on Adobe. That sort of attitude doesn't go down well here. Tell us your exact problems, and we'll try to help out.

[ProA...@adobeforums.com]

I'm running a QX7600 Vista 64 system, 8GB ram, Nvidia 8800GTX. Its not my system.

I've tried all of the drivers etc etc. There are too many complaints for it to be user error. The problem is with the hack job Adobe did on the PS code. I'm sure it wasnt pretty. You dont get GPU support into a mature code base such as photoshop without ripping it apart hard.

Its just not right. CS3 ran a lot better. The GPU is not supposed to bottleneck or hurt performance. Its supposed to ADD performance. It does not in photoshops case.

I like the new features, but something is seriously messy with the CS4 code.

The sad thing is... they added all of this 3D object painting support and in the end... its worthless. Its not feature rich to support texture map painting on a professional level, nor is it fast enough. So why bother Adobe? WHY?

Body Paint 3D is still far superior and CS4 inst production ready for Interactive 3D Object texture mapping.

Hell right now, its not even production ready for 2D painting.

[ProA...@adobeforums.com]

I want to add that even on that system i mentioned... In software mode, CS4 is only using 35% of the CPU and its STILL SLOW.

That certainly suggests that CS4 is programmed poorly. CS3 is a hell of a lot faster.

[Free...@adobeforums.com]

I'm not denying that some people have problems with GPU acceleration. I don't see them myself, so I can't offer anything more than what's been covered in the other threads.

But what's fairly obvious, is that they're pretty busy both at Adobe and NVidia, and postings here by Adobe engineers Chris Cox, Adam Jerugim and Steve Guilhamet leaves no doubt that they are taking this very seriously.

[CR_Hen...@adobeforums.com]

ProArtist, I do not doubt your word that you are having problems and I've read threads from others who are having problems, too. However, there are many who are not having problems or have only minor problems. I am one of those not having major problems. My system:

Windows Vista Ultimate x64 on an Intel DG965WH motherboard, 8GB RAM, 1TB+ free diskspace, nVidia 9800 GTX+ video card, Wacom Intuos3 6x8 tablet. All of my PS CS3 plugins work fine in Photoshop CS4 Extended 32 bit. I've almost forgotten what the PS CS3 interface looks like for I never use it.

[Stefan...@adobeforums.com]

ProArtist,
just a little thing you can try:
Set up the cache level to 6-8.
On my system when the cache level is at 1 for example, Photoshop gets extremely slow! Even turning a layer on or off takes 2 seconds.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

Dont tell me its graphic drivers.

ok then.

[Robert_...@adobeforums.com]

No problems here.

Robert

[Robert_...@adobeforums.com]

It is interesting that looking at the people having problems I see two
reoccuring themes here.

1. AMD processors.
2. Nvidia graphics cards.

Having been burnt by AMD once before I now always go Intel. As for video I
used to be a diehard Matrox user, but they haven't kept up with the
technology so now it is ATI and I have had my share of problems with them.
But, finally have stable drivers.

One word of advice. If you get stable drivers don't update unless you have
to. On several ocassions I have done this only for the drivers to break
things that worked fine before the update. The trick is getting a stable set
of drivers.

Good luck to all,

Robert

[Phos�four dots]

"If you get stable drivers don't update unless you have to."

I think this is excellent advice, and applicable to updates of ANY kind�OS, drivers, apps, or anything else.

I ALWAYS read the tech-news sites and look for early-adopter feedback when new versions of things are released.

I NEVER let anything update automatically if I can find a way to turn of that feature in the app, utility, whatever...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[chris_...@adobeforums.com]

like stefan states - up the cache. mine is set on 8 and CS4 is smoooooth.

[Rob_K...@adobeforums.com]

What helped me (XP pro SP3, Q6600, NVIDEA 8400GT+512 MB) was turn on GPU in preferences, but then click on Advanced, and switch off everything there.

Result: smooth canvas rotation, smooth panning (swithed off flick panning, don't like that kind of ballistics) and smooth odd zoom factor image.

One negative result: Smooting in the Brushes Panel doesn't work any more (after these settings, that is) but I still use an ancient wacom graphire with old driver.

I ordered a wacom Intuos, and when it arrives I'll dive into that.

All in all I'm satisfied with CS4.

Rob

[Jeff_...@adobeforums.com]

Runs like it was custom designed for my system. I've never been more amazed with a piece of software. It may be that higher end systems are happier with this release (if you can even call it that - it's more like a brand new application).

For once, hardware has to catch up to the software. It's elegant and if I could I'd marry it. I'd give it anything it wants and even take out the garbage without being asked.

Asus Maximus II Formula
8GB OCZ Reaper 1066 ram
Intel Q9550 OC'd
Vista Ultimate x64

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

One word of advice. If you get stable drivers don't update unless you
have to.

amen!

and applicable to updates of ANY kind

not so. os and other app updates are usually for fixing security flaws. these shouldn't be ignored in today's wild west interweb.

I NEVER let anything update automatically if I can find a way to turn
of that feature in the app, utility, whatever...

that's true.

[Russell...@adobeforums.com]

C R Henderson Wrote:

Windows Vista Ultimate x64 on an Intel DG965WH motherboard, 8GB RAM

I'm surprised that system is working properly. I had an Intel 975BX2 motherboard that could not use any brand of 8GB RAM with Vista64 let alone CS4. Intel even RMA'd me a newer revision of the board and it also could not run stable. So I replaced it with an Asus P5E WS-PRO which works fine. I was left with the impression that only x38 and newer chipsets that support "Memory Remappng" will work. The 975 chipset did not so I'm very surprised the 965 chipset does.

see: <http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929605>

Russell

[Daryl_P...@adobeforums.com]

Russell,

It's odd that your 975 chipset didn't support memory remapping. I had an ASUS P5W DH Deluxe motherboard, also based upon the 975 chipset, which DID support memory remap. In fact, I only learned what that was about after finding my PC was only indicated slightly over 3GB of RAM during the POST. This sounds more like the Intel BIOS simply didn't support that option; similarly, I do not see it in the AWARD BIOS of my Gigabyte P45-based motherboard, yet it still detects the 8GB of memory I'm running with now.

I miss my ASUS board...seems it actually outperforms this newer Gigabyte board with my Core 2 Extreme processor, but the ASUS decided to throw up a puff of smoke when I plugged in my headset microphone recently...after years of using an Audigy 2 sound card but troubleshooting an audio issue and thus reverting to the on-board sound. I still need to contact ASUS about a possible RMA under warranty, given I've got 1 year left on it. Oddly too, the ASUS would boot fine with external USB drives plugged in, whereas the Gigabyte does not.

Regards,

Daryl

[Ray_M...@adobeforums.com]

Hey everyone,

I'm hoping to get some help as well. I feel exactly like ProArtist - I feel like CS4 is an absolute disaster (because I am experiencing this ridiculous slowness). That said, for fear of being counter-productive and negative, I'm just hoping that Adobe and NVidia can get this problem worked about sooner than later. I am running a brand new Dell Latitude D830 on Vista 32 with 4GB of RAM. CS3 works amazing, but CS4 is a major bog (with or without GPU). The card (that is built into my laptop) is a Quadro NVS 140M. Any help from other users that have solved this on a Dell laptop would be appreciated. (Regarding the AMD comment noted by Robert - my system is running Intel Core2.)

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Ray

[John Joslin]

It's beginning to look as if CS4 is not a laptop application.

[J_Ma...@adobeforums.com]

JJ just got fired. Ouch. ;)

[mcdanielnc89]

I hve no problems with CS4. i have the master collection and love it!

[CR_Hen...@adobeforums.com]

Russell Proulx:C R Henderson Wrote: Windows Vista Ultimate x64 on an Intel

DG965WH motherboard, 8GB RAM
I'm surprised that system is working properly.

It didn't for quite some time. Intel had a problem in the BIOS that caused any 64 bit system with over 4GB RAM to run about as well as a TRS-80. If an old version of the BIOS was installed all worked OK. After about 2 years they finally came out with a BIOS version in June that fixed all the x64 problems for the 965 series of boards when used with a 64 bit OS and >4GB RAM.

The problem was discussed here:

<http://forums.microsoft.com/TechNet/showpost.aspx?postid=4018443&siteid=17>

[Adam_J...@adobeforums.com]

Another offer to those experiencing CS4 performance problems...

If you're located anywhere near the S.F. bay area, please let me know. Having a system to debug on that's actually showing this problem is essential for us to be able to get a better understanding of why this is happening.

thanks,
-Adam

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Most of these problems really are driver issues (though some seem to be card firmware) -- please make sure that your video card manufacturer is aware of the problems, including the specifics of your system.

[David_E_...@adobeforums.com]

I have a amd processor running on vista ultimate 64 and I don't have big issues. I did have some lag like others reported but I set my cache to 8, as stated above, and it runs smooth now. May not make problems go away for others but it helped me out.

Also there is a new directx out 11/5/2008 (today) for those who might be interested.

[Mark_Joh...@adobeforums.com]

Add my CS4 installation to the DISASTER column. Very disappointing. I work with large images and usually have many open at once. There is a painful drag lag, redraw lag, whatever you want to call it. I do not wish to deal with it.

Moving images around the screen leaves a copy of the image where it used to be for a second. Very distracting. When I zoom in on a 20 MB image, in CS3 I can click the hand tool, drag the image around at will and it moves as smoothly as if I were moving a paper image around on a smooth surface. Cs4 is another story. As I click and drag I see a bunch of squares getting redrawn all over the screen. Very distracting.

On my Dell 1330 Laptop there is the additional problem of a disappearing brush outline above a certain brush size. On the laptop there is no hope because Dell will not release another video driver for this machine for XP in my lifetime.

On both the desktop and the laptop there is a gray line bisecting the menu at the top of the screen.

I have downloaded the latest nvidia driver to my dell vostro 400 desktop intel core 2 duo 6850 3ghz 3gb ram Nvidia geforce8600gts driver version 6.14.11.7824.

I have tried all of the turn off open gl and change cache level suggestions.

Something is amiss with CS4. If you have not purchased, don't. You should get the trial version and see if it works with your hardware.

CS3 works great on both my desktop and laptop - both about a year old.

I like Adobe & Photoshop, and I am a stockholder, but I am returning CS4 because it doesn't work on my machines. What disappoints me as a stockholder is that there are millions of others out there with machines like mine. I will be happy to purchase CS4 again, or CS5?, once Adobe fixes the problem with my machines.

And Adobe pointing to nvidia does not cut it. Adobe can't throw software out there and then point to, lets say, Epson as the reason why your printouts are all of a sudden screwed up, or to nvidia as the reason that CS4 is not displaying things correctly. They have to work out these problems with the manufacturers PRIOR to releasing a new version of CS, I don't care what the marketing folks say!

I would be glad to hang on to CS4 for free and work with Adobe to fix their problem (and I do mean their problem)..... but I am not going to hang around on my dime. I am getting my money back.

[Russell...@adobeforums.com]

It's odd that your 975 chipset didn't support memory remapping. I had
an ASUS P5W DH Deluxe motherboard, also based upon the 975 chipset, which
DID support memory remap.

I read CR Henderson's response and wished that I had not sold that board if it could indeed run stable with 8GB RAM. I just ran out of patience with Intel who wore me down with long distance $$ tech support calls and inept suggestions. Seems like Asus, who I was a long time fan of since the old P2B and P4T days, are better at getting their bios' right. Intel really left me thinking that they had nothing to offer...

Russell

[Paul_...@adobeforums.com]

Mark,

Those are pretty much my feelings and I returned my copy as well. I would have loved to keep it, but as I'm watching this unfold, there's no telling when it might get fixed and the problems are too pervasive.

One thing, Adobe makes it very easy to return it.

Paul

[John_...@adobeforums.com]

QUOTING MJ Murphy above:

"Moving images around the screen leaves a copy of the image where it used to be for a second. Very distracting. When I zoom in on a 20 MB image, in CS3 I can click the hand tool, drag the image around at will and it moves as smoothly as if I were moving a paper image around on a smooth surface. Cs4 is another story. As I click and drag I see a bunch of squares getting redrawn all over the screen. Very distracting."

SAME HERE!

AND: CS4 renders picture packages much more slowly than even 6.0 which is what I was running before we bought the full version of CS4.
CS4 does not take advantage of CPU power because it rarely uses more than 60% when rendering. (XP32, P4 HT 3.0GHz, 2GB RAM, dedicated scratch drive). Very disappointing...

[John_...@adobeforums.com]

P.S. DOES ADOBE HAVE A RETURN/EXCHANGE POLICY?

I would be happy to go to CS3 instead, even for the same money.

[ProA...@adobeforums.com]

The ironic thing is... if you go into the liquify tool, its FASTER at panning, redrawing, brush responsiveness and it liquifize smooth as silk...

BUT when you go back into CS4 with or without GPU opengl enabled... Its so slow in comparison.

Perhaps its the fact that my desktop resolution is 2560x1600 (since i'm using a 30 inch monitor...

But i dont think thats it, especially when you factor in that with opengl off, CS4 is still far slower than CS3.

GPU on and off in CS4 is roughly the same slow performance. The GPU slows down the performance a bit more... but overall, the program runs nothing like CS3 did.

[John Joslin]

Is that 2560x1600 the native resolution of the monitor?

[David...@adobeforums.com]

I have the lagging problem (and I have an Intel processor), but I wouldn't call CS4 a disaster. The rotating canvas (something Painter already had 10 years ago) removes my number one complaint about Photoshop as a pure drawing application.

I'm really surprised that in their beta testing, Adobe never encountered the lag problem, considering how many others like myself experience it now. Maybe their list of beta testers is too narrow. They should have done a public beta release like they did with Dreamweaver, and have thousands of testers.

I trust that Adobe has put top priority on solving this. Once it's solved, then I'll be delighted with CS4. Annoying, should have been tested more before relase, but not by any means a disaster.

[Kwan_...@adobeforums.com]

Like others, I experienced lagging and momentary ghosting when moving images.

On average my images are 2 -3 megs and seldom larger than 5 megs.

Windows XP SP3
Nvidia 7900GS 256 (latest driver)
4 megs memory (3.5 useable)

For my purposes, slow response or lagging and ghosting was resolved by increasing the cache to 6, enabling OpenGL Drawing but unchecking everything in the Advanced Settings window except Advanced Drawing.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

P.S. DOES ADOBE HAVE A RETURN/EXCHANGE POLICY?

return for 30 days. call customer support.

[Paul_...@adobeforums.com]

John,

Adobe makes it very easy to return CS4. However, they won't sell anything CS3 since CS4 has been released. If you want CS4 you need to check with Amazon or some other third party vendor.

Paul

[J_Ma...@adobeforums.com]

If you want CS4 you need to check with Amazon or some other third party
vendor.

CS3

[Paul_...@adobeforums.com]

Thanks J
I fixed it.

[PECour...@adobeforums.com]

For troubleshooting, all users affected should maybe give more info:
Screen Resolution; for each screen if there are several.
Videocard type; brand; firmware version; Driver version
CPU type, speed; motherboard; amount of memory
Windows version, peculiarities (window blinds, anti-virus)
Photoshop settings: Cache, amount of ram allocated, what Open Gl settings etc.
How does the issue appear, when (immediately?)

[ProA...@adobeforums.com]

yes, the native resolution of 30inch LCD's is 2560x1600

[ProA...@adobeforums.com]

David Nicol,

I agree with you, the rotate canvas tool is awesome... as are all of the new features. I'm not saying the features are a disaster, but the quality of programming and performance of photoshop CS4... that is the disaster. With GPU, this program should be lighting quick... Without GPU it should be lighting quick. :) Its neither... However CS3 is lightning quick without GPU! So CS4 introduced GPU support but the performance is worse than the old display code they were using in CS3!!! Whats the point ?

And its not the GPU, because in software display mode in CS4... its almost as slow as with GPU... and its still far slower than CS3 was.

Do i think they can fix this? Sure... When? I dont know. But why was it released this way? And what is the real cause for this severe problem?

I'm glad there are trial versions.

Please dont tell me its because us 30inch guys run at 2560x1600 because that would be an entire industry of graphic artists.

The system i tested on...

Intel QX6700 (quadcore extreme)
Intel D975XBX2 motherboard
Nvidia 8800GTX
8GB Ram
Latest Nvidia drivers (I also tried running the newest beta drivers)
HP 30inch monitor - Native resolution 2560x1600
Wacom Intous 3
Local Raid 0 (sata)
Vista 64bit.

[Adam_J...@adobeforums.com]

Ok, here's another data point I need: are people who are experiencing the lag using a tablet?

If so, do you have the latest drivers?

Also, do the performance problems continue if you use a mouse instead of a tablet to drive the PS UI?

This information would be very helpful for those of us investigating this problem.

Thanks again,
-Adam

[Paul_...@adobeforums.com]

No tablet installed

[David...@adobeforums.com]

I'm using a Wacom Intuos 2 with the latest driver. But I get identical performance problems whether I use the mouse or the tablet. On my second computer, I use an Intuos 3. Same thing, identical whether using mouse or tablet. Both systems are Win XP SP3. One is single monitor 1920x1200, the other is dual monitor 1600x1200.

[PECour...@adobeforums.com]

Pro Artist, "Latest" is almost meaningless, please state the exact version, maybe also the firmware version of your videocard.
Some other users reported a big bost when updating directX, don't know if it is related.

Please give all info that Adam requests.

[John Joslin]

Adam/Chris

Another factor in some aspects of the lag may be file size and number of layers. I know some users use huge files and dozens (or hundreds) of layers.

I know some symptoms of the lag also occur independently of these factors but everything needs to be taken into account.

[Mike_D...@adobeforums.com]

Not using tablet on my MSI m670.Never had troubles with CS3, but in ver4 met:

1) slow working
2) already mentioned, brush round disappears, leaving small part - no way to define where you're painting >(
3) in PNG "Save for web" dither and color masks disappeared
4) interface got worse and tabs names take more space, and there's no way (tick) to stop menus from hiding some

Btw, InDesign isn't better also ;)
God bless I've tried the trial first. Will be looking for CS3 again.

[Rick Moore]

No tablet here.
Adam, have you guys not been able to reproduce the lag at Adobe?

[Adam_J...@adobeforums.com]

Not yet. Just spent the morning setting up a fresh XP Sp3 box. I'll spend the day cycling video cards in and out of the box to see if I can repro (starting with the cards people have reported as problematic).

[Wayne_G....@adobeforums.com]

Disaster? I'm of two minds:

The retired system engineer in me is delighted that there are so many defects on which to do problem determination. What's delightful is the complete unreliability of the PS (and Windows) code. Sometimes you do A, B, & C and X happens; sometimes not. The two areas I have in mind are the new GPU 'support' and the old as the hills but still unreliable pen pressure support. Adobe can't make the new functionality right and can get the old functionality to work reliably. A techie's dream - a complete mess.

The professional photographer in me is completely appalled. I'm spending so much time with the tools that I'm getting very little real work done.

I do wish that Adobe & Microsoft (among many) were less interested in speed and ever so much more interested in quality. Any bug in a shipping product that can be completely described in ONE simple, short sentence means that they just don't care (or aren't up to the work at all).

How about more engineers and many, many fewer pieces of suited overhead.

[Daniel_...@adobeforums.com]

Greetings all,

If those of you that have the lag problem could run "dxdiag" and then email that text file to danielatadobedotcom I would like to run through some of the data.

- In the taskbar at the bottom of your screen, click Start, and then click Run.
- In the Run dialog box, type: dxdiag ( Click OK to run)
- A dialog box displays System and display info
- Save All information (or at least System and display information)

Thanks for your feed back...

[Rick Moore]

Thanks for the prompt replies, Adam.
I installed CS4 on another machine today and get the same zoom and text
lag - Quadro NVS 280

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Mike - the round brush cursor and SFW are both due to known driver bugs (probably an Nvidia card). Please update your drivers. If updating the drivers does not solve the problem, then contact the video card maker.

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Wayne - we are interested in quality, and we do more testing than any other product I know of. But, especially with the GPUs, there are too many variables.

And just because a bug description is short, does not mean it is accurate, or simple, or that it could have been caught in testing. "Processors with Pentium4 mask revision 3 and unpatched BIOS versions lock up for several seconds when running threaded code."

And right now, we have absolutely no idea why the nonGPU case is running slow or showing problems -- it should be the same as CS3, and was in all our tests.

[Nick_...@adobeforums.com]

Daniel, I've just emailed you my dxdiag info.

Nick

[Nick_...@adobeforums.com]

Well, Chris, if getting CS4 to run properly will require me to turn off the OpenGL features, then I might as well have not upgraded. And had I known this, I would not have done so.

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Nick - one more time: if your card and driver work correctly, you shouldn't have to turn it off.

We are slowly gathering information and reproducing some of the problems. Some are still drivers, a few might be bugs, and a few look like issues with XP and window ordering.

[Joann...@adobeforums.com]

CS4 is far from a disaster. I have some graphics issues with both desktop and laptop, but even without the GPU features active, CS4 is a definite improvement over previous versions. We all have an infinite combination of motherboards, graphics cards and such like, such that it really is impossible for the software to run without a hitch on every machine.

The software has only been shipping for about three weeks, it's early days. Okay, quite a few people are posting to this forum, but there are probably a big majority of users who have had minimal problems and who are reaping the benefits.

My graphics card meets the minimum requirements for Open GL and Shader, but the computer restarted if I switched on the GPU features. I have updated the driver and it now freezes up if I use the lasso tool, but no restart. I suspect there's some other requirement for this to work. My PC is only 20 months old and reasonably well spec'd. Asus PB5 motherboard with the P965 chipset, an ATI Radeon 1950 XTX graphics card with 512MB graphics memory and 3GB normal ddr2 RAM, Core Duo E7500 processor.

I'm sure some fixes will come and an update released to improve things.

Joanne

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Hmm, restarts and whole system freezes are bad - usually hardware, firmware or driver issues. You definitely need to talk to ATI about that.

[John Joslin]

I installed CS4 the day it arrived. Everything has worked as advertised. What am I doing wrong?

Intel 5400 chipset
Intel Xeon E5410 (2.33GHZ, 1333Mhz, 2x6MB, Quad Core)
8GB DDR2 667 Quad Channel Memory 667MHz
512MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 3700
160GB (7,200 rpm) SATA
Two 500GB (7,200 rpm) SATA
DC power supply 875 Watt
Windows Vista Business (64-bit)

[Nick_...@adobeforums.com]

We are slowly gathering information and reproducing some of the problems.
Some are still drivers, a few might be bugs, and a few look like issues
with XP and window ordering.

Thank you, Chris. Finally, an admission that there might be bugs. As I have said before, I'm more than willing to help you work on this. But, I do Have The Most Recent Drivers. (Caps are in response to what you said to me.)

[Joann...@adobeforums.com]

I am indeed talking to ATI about this. Trouble is that I've had issues with this card since day one and never managed to get it resolved while my warranty was valid. I'm just being patient and negotiating as best I can.

I can still benefit from many of the features while I'm resolving my graphics issues with ATI. My laptop has an nVidia card (8600M GT) and while this is one of the cards Adobe tested, there's the problem with the cursor. No updated drivers available either, I'm a bit stuck with that one! I haven't tried to turn on the GPU features on that.

Thank you Chris.

Joanne

[Ho]

It is interesting that looking at the people having problems I see two
reoccuring themes here.

1. AMD processors.
2. Nvidia graphics cards.

Having been burnt by AMD once before I now always go Intel

Robert, you've been hammering on this for what&#8212;about 3 years? Maybe you should give it a rest.

[Stefan...@adobeforums.com]

Most people that have problems have nvidia cards, because the majority of PS users simply seems to use nvidia.

[Free...@adobeforums.com]

I'm a little curious about one thing. I've noticed that very few - if any at all - of the forum regulars seem to have any major problems.

What do most of the regulars have in common? We build our own systems (or so it seems to me).

So here's what I'm thinking: Can any of the OEM/third-party utilities and applications that come with most off-the-shelf computers be interfering in any way?

Another thing - and I'll probably get a sh*tload of angry answers for even suggesting this - could it be that the forum regulars are above average interested in technical stuff, and so tend to have less "dirty", more regularly maintained and updated systems?

[Rob_K...@adobeforums.com]

As stated in another thread, I had lag problems too (panning and rotating), but the lag dissapeared when I went to PS preferences, Performance, leave "Enable OpenGL Drawing" on, but under Advanced Settings turn off eeverything.

And yes, I maintain a separate pc for PS and such, no cr*p comes near that one.

Rob

[Bart_...@adobeforums.com]

My system (which I built) works fine:

Intel P35 chipset
Intel Q6600 (2.4GHZ, 800Mhz, 2x6MB, Quad Core)
8GB DDR2 800 Mushkin 4-3-3-10 RAM
BFG nVidia 8600GT OC 512 Mb
Four 500GB (7,200 rpm) SATA II
DC power supply 850 Watt
Windows Vista Ultimate (64-bit)
Two Dell Ultrasharps ( 1920 x 1200, 1680 x 1050)
Two LG DVD/CD drives.

Running Adobe Master Collection (full load), Quark 6.5 (for compatibility), CorelDraw X3, Pagemaker 7 (for compatibility), Office Professional 2007 (full load) & Maya 4.5. I also run SystemSuite 9 for maintainence. Don't do games on this machine.

[Rick Moore]

The problem I have is with zooming and the text tool. Panning and rotating
aren't a problem. Turning off advanced OpenGL settings doesn't make a
difference. There seems to be a lot of people with the lag problems that
have the nVidia 8800 series card, and a lot of people who have the 8600
series are working fine, but it's hard to believe that there wasn't an 8800
card in one of the tester's machines.

[Free...@adobeforums.com]

there wasn't an 8800 card in one of the tester's machines.

Of course there was, but the rest of the configuration may not have matched...

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

could it be that the forum regulars are above average interested in technical
stuff, and so tend to have less "dirty", more regularly maintained and
updated systems?

100% true. those who care enough about photoshop and their systems to peruse this forum every day pick up all kinds of tips and tricks from the natural sharing and learning that comes from reading problems and helping solve them.

[David...@adobeforums.com]

Someone else mentioned DirectX. Adam, have you considered this? I'm not at all knowledgeable about DirectX. But I checked my system and it shows I have directX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904), with numerous dll files dated between February 2006 and April 2008. A search of Microsoft's website shows an August 2008 installer for 9.24.1400 and November 2008 installer for 9.25.1476. These do not show up, even as optional updates, on the Microsoft Update page. Which leads me to question whether there are different versions of DirectX installed on different Windows XP installations, depending on when Windows was installed.

Just a thought, since DirectX version was a major issue in a non-Adobe animation program I use.

And to those who speculate that the lag is happening on "dirty" systems... I am not a regular Photoshop forum user, but I work hard to keep my system clean and lean, avoid spyware-laden resource-hungry programs like Real Media, never install anything I don't need or never use (like Adobe Drive and Version Cue), don't visit dodgy websites, and so on. When I work in Photoshop, usually no other program is open except sometimes Bridge and/or Premiere. Yet I experience huge lag in Photoshop CS4, even with a new file with a single blank layer that I try drawing in. The problem is within Photoshop CS4.

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

And to those who speculate that the lag is happening on "dirty" systems...

of course there are people like you who take the time to do the work to keep their systems running optimally. the point freeagent made and i agreed with is that in general, those who hang out here are almost all of that group, where as outside the percent who care to keep their systems running smooth if it goes beyong an occasional virus or spyware scan is very small indeed.

no disparagement intended, david. just an observation.

this is not to say that there aren't problems with certain configurations. bugs in inside code, outside code and plugins and drivers, etc. and problems with interactions of the multitude of components that go into making up the windows market.

they're being worked on, as in past releases. and this care is shown by the influx of adobe engineers and support staff that have been flooding this forum recently with offers to help track down problems and offering explanations. i know it sucks to keep hearing things like "update the video driver", and "write the card manufacturer", but if the past is any indication (and i've been here from version 5.5 and every release since then) most of these problems WILL work out sooner rather than later.

pax,
dave

[Free...@adobeforums.com]

I was talking statistics, not particulars. Anyway, Dave explained it better than I did.

[David_E_...@adobeforums.com]

Freeagent:

Yes, companies put a lot of bloatware in their computers (as it is sometimes called) that may not mesh with other software that is installed later. I have seen it with patches to make their software work with on board sound or even video.
When you process a laptop or computer for repair the first thing the company tells you, that if need be to get your computer running, they will wipe your hard drive, and restore it to factory specs. It even reads that in the paperwork you receive with the system. They have no obligation what so ever.

I build my own systems because I upgrade. It is alot cheaper, in the long run, for me to do so. Everything I have learned is from reading books and visiting forums like this one. Computers are like a hobby for me. What I learned is to research before I buy so that I know before hand that what is bought will work with my system.

I take care of my systems. Keep them warm and clean. Yes I keep my system updated but I also do system restore points because some updates just break things that worked before.

Yup, lots of software that will not run on my vista 64 bit machine correctly (Or at all). Ran on the 32 bit version. But I knew this before I went 64 bit.

Yes, I am a technical type of person who wants to know why something works. It is in my blood and I enjoy the heck out of it.

Yes, store bought systems can be upgraded to a point. But a lot of vendors will put a fix on their systems to make things run. I bought a Dell computer years ago. The on board sound would not work without their little fix to their software. That was a mess when a new sound driver came up. Also the RAM that I ordered and paid for was not in the motherboard. Dell had put in cheaper, slower running ram. I found this out when a stick went bad. Dell refused to give me the ram that I ordered. I was past the one year point. That was enough for me.

So that day forward I have built and upgraded my own systems. I know what is in the case!!

There is just so much to learn and do.

[Phosąfour dots]

When Chris keeps saying something like "update the drivers" he's just suggesting good, standard troubleshooting procedure. The types of problems many are citing point toward outdated or corrupt drivers as a possible cause, and may likely be something Adam J and the other members of the QA team noticed as they were testing. Eliminate problems one-by-one so that the playing field becomes more level, and so that one can methodically work toward zeroing in on a qualifiable cause.

[Joann...@adobeforums.com]

David

I think there may be a grain of truth in what you say in that many of us are Photoshop users with regards to digital photography, but aren't power users of the software. Up until CS4 came out - a decent spec PC with a good dose of RAM and a decent processor/graphics card would run the software without drama. Regulars are probably more power users and much more gemmed up on the properties of various motherboards and graphics set ups.

My PC is just over 18 months old, and was spec'd to run CS2/CS3 which it did without a fuss. It wasn't an off-the-shelf system, but was built by a company that allowed customers to specify much of what went into the box. My laptop is just coming up to a year old and had the best laptop graphics available at that time, which just happened to be nVidia.

My system is 'clean' in that it's kept fully patched, cleaned and defragged regularly and has the minimum of superfluous software on there. So those of us who are users rather than very computer savvy do our best to spec our PC with a bit of future proofing built in, but occasionally we will get caught out.

Joanne

[Free...@adobeforums.com]

Yup, David, that's about it.

Laptops are a whole other can of worms here. I consider myself lucky that my hp laptop runs CS4 well, because if it didn't there wouldn't be much I could do about it. The graphics card is a NVidia 8600, but hp has modified it to the point that NVidias driver won't work. I have to feed it hps own driver - the latest being 6 months old and counting.

When I bought it, that laptop had well over twenty "helpful" little gadgets that would autostart on boot-up. It's now down to four.

[David_E_...@adobeforums.com]

Joanne,

18 month old computer should run CS4 just fine. Glad you had input on what went in it when you had it built. CS4 has not been all fun and games with me. However, reading the boards and trying things out helped a lot. Just minor stuff now that I live with but with new drivers it may help out in the future. I am not even close a CS4 power user. Just part of my hobby.

I used to have a ASUS G1S laptop and that company was the same about updating the 8600M gt. Might be the same card as in yours. I never installed CS4 on it. I went as far as CS3 on it and it was working perfect. I ended up giving it to my son for college. He needed it more then I did and it was working perfect.

I have been lucky with ATI card's and bought only one that refused to work. I bought it at Compusa, when they were still alive, and they gave me a new one that worked. So I agree with you on the bad card and they, whoever they are, should honor the warrenty.

Freeagent,
Before you upgrade to 64 bit, please make sure the laptop will allow it. I wanted to update my Asus laptop to 64 bit. However, reading the boards people were having problems with that laptop running 64 bit. Besides the motherboard would only take and accept 4 gigs of ram no matter what. Plus there were hardly any drivers for that laptop for 64 bit. There was well documented issues with the motherboard and vista 64 bit.

Yes, pretty funny how all them helpful things boot up at the same time dragging things down with it.

[David...@adobeforums.com]

I'm not sure what the point of the previous 20 or so posts are. There is still a problem many people are having with the lag. By the way, I also built my own computer (with help of a major techno-geek) to spec it for 2D animation production. It is just over a year old. Absolutely every driver is up-to-date. I have a second computer, three years old, full of junk and running lots of unnecessary bells and whistles (since my teenage son uses it), which doesn't have the lag problem!

So the idea that "clean" systems experience the problem less would seem to be untrue. The opposite, in fact.

May I make a suggestion to the Adobe engineers who have been so eager to fix this issue? They are unable to reproduce the problem. Adam keeps calling on anyone in the Bay Area with this problem to contact him, but obviously there have been no takers. Would it be asking too much to suggest Adobe choose one of us with this problem and invest a couple hundred bucks into sending one of their engineers for a visit to try to track down the problem? Then they can go back to San Jose and work on a fix. It sure isn't going to happen by guesswork.

[Ho]

My guess is that they would prefer to invest that money to pay for round trip shipping to get a computer into their labs for analysis.

Are you willing to volunteer yours?

[David...@adobeforums.com]

Are you willing to volunteer yours?

I'll give them mine in return for a new quad core.

[Ho]

:)

[Adam_J...@adobeforums.com]

See post #48. No need for any of us to fly anywhere...

On Friday I set up an older box (3GHz Pentium D, dual-core) with a clean XP Sp3 and can now reproduce many of the issues reported. We're in the process of investigating and I will provide more information when I have it.

-Adam

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

you're a gem adam. thank you for all the help and support you've provided for the last several releases.

[CR_Hen...@adobeforums.com]

dave milbut:you're a gem adam. thank you for all the help and support

you've provided for the last several releases

Ditto...

There is also the fact that he is online providing useful information on Sunday. That shows either dedication or he has no life. I suspect the former for him while for me it's probably the latter :)

[ProA...@adobeforums.com]

Adam, make sure you test in vista as well (64-bit especially). These performance issues do not only apply to XP3.

Thanks for being on top of things.

[dp...@adobeforums.com]

I'm using vista x64 with a Nvidia 8800 vid card, and it works great.

[chris_...@adobeforums.com]

same...

vista x64
Asus P5Q deluxe
16gb ram
nVidia 8800 gts 640mb
q9650 3ghz
loads of drives
This system only goes online to activate software / download updates.

CS4 runs really well.

There are so many variables.....hard drives / ram / drivers /etc... any bad combination could cause issues.

For those having problems, I'm wondering if it's an OpenGL and Direct X conflict, in some cases, as they're two separate systems that are trying to achieve the same thing. Maybe a Microsoft DirectX update has interfered with OpenGL in some way.

[Bill...@adobeforums.com]

Adam Jerugim,

I will be following this thread to see what you find.

It sure is an improvement over M-soft's "trouble shooting" which blames BitDefender running under Vista for every problem I have had. That includes those with the cable un-plugged and BitDefender not having been started.

Thanks,
Bill

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Actually, Chris keeps saying "update the drivers" because people are mentioning known driver bugs that the video card makers are supposed to be fixing (but obviously haven't yet fixed for every model and OS combination). We need to get past the known driver bugs so we can find any as-of-yet unidentified bugs.

[Nick_...@adobeforums.com]

Chris Cox, I go to the ATI site Every Day to check for new drivers. So far, no luck. I have contacted them three times, via email, and they have nothing to say about the issues I'm seeing with CS4. They tell me to re-install the driver package, which I've done about four times.

I read that Adam J. has reproduced the lag problems on a machine there at Adobe. Do you or Adam have any info on that? Are you two on speaking terms? Sounds to me like there might be identified bugs.

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Adam's office is next door to me - we talk, well, a lot. There are several "lag" problems being discussed.

But things like "incomplete redraws" and "incomplete brush cursors" are known driver bugs, and updated drivers are the only thing that will fix them. Again, we have to get those known issues out of the way first before we can start looking for other problems.

[Nick_...@adobeforums.com]

updated drivers are the only thing that will fix them.

OK, thanks. Does me no good, though, because ATI won't admit to any problems with their drivers. They care about gamers, not PS users.

If I knew what ATI drivers you used for testing CS4, I would roll back to them. Then maybe CS4 wouldn't be a problem for me.

[Lawrenc...@adobeforums.com]

Bugs.

Team A develops a program or an app. They are the basic engineering team. Their work becomes the core for Team B. Team B has been created or enabled by marketing to take A's work and put a skin on it, and wouldn't it be nice to ad this feature, make that feature more useful or glitzy, etc. B develops what marketing wants. Now, the design begins to be buggier than the early alpha version of Team A. In fact, when the remaining bugs for A's product gets resolved, team B's product generates evenmore bugs. So they talk. Team B files a bug report that starts out in the setup description with "Install the Team B app". "Hold on!", says A. "We didn't create that. You did." "Yeah", says B, "but when you fixed big number XYZ, we have another problem show up." A says that's not our problem. But in the spirit of cooperation, A takes a look, and, with it's core running fine they cannot generate the bug. Bickering starts. Team A issues a final release, whereby Team B rejects that ....

You know the story, I'm sure. Now, Team A and Team B are separate companies, and the battle is more like a marriage gone bad.

Could it be that Adobe is asking the video card and driver to do things the card vendors haven't anticipated, and in fixing things for Adobe users, it fouls the nest for other users, causing a cascade of bugs and fixes? On both sides?

[Adam_J...@adobeforums.com]

As promised, here's more info:

On the system in my office that I'm seeing the problem on (Pentium D 3GHz, 4GB RAM, XP Sp3), using a combination of the AllowOldGPUS_ON.reg and then using the following settings in the GPU advanced settings:

Vertical Sync: enabled
3D Interaction Acceleration: enabled
Force Bilinear Interpolation: disabled

Advanced Drawing: enabled
Use for Image Display: disabled
Color Matching: disabled

The brush lag, in my case, is mitigated with these settings. Disabling Open GL Drawing altogether brings the brush performance nearly in-line with CS3.

Still investigating...

-Adam

[Nick_...@adobeforums.com]

Adam, no joy over here. There's still about the same amount of lag, and if I drag a window the content disappears.

I would add, though, that with AllowOldGPUS_ON.reg in place, 3D Interaction Acceleration is grayed out in the Advanced GPU Settings.

What video card are you using?

[Adam_J...@adobeforums.com]

In my case, I'm using the nVidia 8800 GT (512MB VRAM). It is worth noting that the same card runs CS4 without any issue on three other systems in my office (one XP SP3, two Vista64).

[David...@adobeforums.com]

Adam,

As stated in previous posts, my experience is quite different than what you're experiencing. Disabling OpenGL makes performance worse. Using the settings you listed above also makes it worse. Again, the only way I get decent (but not great) performance is:

AllOldGPUS_ON.reg in place
Enable Open GL
Disable all Advanced settings

Any other combination of settings brings the problem back.

It seems the problem is very hard to pinpoint.

Maybe you should give some us a phone call, ask us to try different settings, and give you instant feedback. I'm ready and willing to spend the time to help you get to the bottom of this.

[Dave_E...@adobeforums.com]

Adam,
When you say “the same card” is it physically the same card tried in different PCs or do the other PCs just have the same model of card?

I wonder if it could be related to the card bios or even the manufacturing date of the card, perhaps some un-documented changes were made to the card hardware for different production runs.