N-Trig Tablet Not Recognized

[nick_...@adobeforums.com]

A few other HP and Dell tablet PC users and I have noticed that photoshop does not recognize the pressure sensitivity of the N-trig tablets. I bought this laptop thinking that it was Wacom because I knew it was pressure sensitive (which it is on a couple other programs) so I was a little surprised when I found out that there was more than one type of digitizer pen.

Is there a work around, patch or some other way to get Photoshop and Elements to recognize it?

I contacted N-Trig already and they basically said it's the software's issue.

[Don_Mc...@adobeforums.com]

It's not the software's issue, if Wacom works and their's doesn't. Tell the company you want your money back, because their product doesn't work effectively with the number one tool for graphics production.

(Not saying you will get the refund, but they might start paying attention to making their product work.)

[nick_...@adobeforums.com]

Unfortunately, as it's a tablet PC from HP I don't really have any leverage with N-Trig. The tablet functionality cannot really be separated from the laptop. I agree that it would be helpful if N-Trig's drivers were written in a way that were recognized by photoshop. I don't know if that would be even possible given that the two technologies are inherently different. Photoshop's tablet recognition was written for Wacom, as wacom is the most popular tablet maker and the one most used for professional design. That's why I'm not surprised that photoshop doesn't recognize this entirely different driver. I just want to get it to work.

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Photoshop's tablet support is generic - supporting any tablet that writes to Windows standards.

You'll have to talk to HP or N-Trig about why their drivers do not work.

[Don_Mc...@adobeforums.com]

Dunno if you will get it to work. As Chris said, Photoshop wrote generic links, and Wacom made their device work with them. (Not Adobe working to the Wacom standard). If N-Trig is not interested in doing the same, then you are out of luck.

[Smartweb...@adobeforums.com]

Hi. I just recently purchased this same laptop as well and feel let down by N-trig. Since hearing from other users in the same situation that N-trig believes it is an Adobe issue, I have started looking into developing a workaround to allow N-trig users to still use pen pressure in Photoshop. Hypothetically, do you believe it would be possible to develop a .net application to read the x/y coordinates of the digitizer and the pen pressure value, and then somehow communicate them to Photoshop? I have looked into the Tablet PC SDK examples and pen pressure works fine on these, so it seems that as long as I could find a way to have the program run in the background, and have Photoshop interpret these values, it should hypothetically be possible. What are your thoughts? Thanks!

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Not easily - you'd have to patch into the Windows tablet drivers to supply the pressure and other information correctly. (location comes from that API or just mouse coordinates)

If N-trig published documentation on their hardware, it would be possible for someone else to write a driver that correctly communicates with the Windows tablet and mouse APIs.

Of course, it would be fastest if N-trig fixed their own driver.

[Smartweb...@adobeforums.com]

I have downloaded the latest version of the Windows SDK and am looking over the various tablet examples that are available. I am not the most skilled programmer, but I believe that I am capable of eventually getting a program running that can generate x/y values for the pen locations, and a reading of the pressure sensitivity. If I am able to get this program running, how would I go about feeding this information into Photoshop so that is is compliant with the pen pressure brush settings? I appreciate all of the help you have provided so far. You guys are much more helpful than the N-Trig support staff. Thanks!

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

You can't feed it directly to Photoshop - you have to implement the tablet driver code that feeds the values to the Windows tablet APIs, which Photoshop then uses to get the information.

[Smartweb...@adobeforums.com]

In the Windows SDK tablet examples the N-Trig digitizer is able to produce varying line thickness based on sensitivity. Do you think these Windows SDK tablet examples are using the API you are talking about or are these two completely different things? I'm sorry if I am way off here, it just seems like it shouldn't be that hard to come up with a way to get the pressure sensitivity to work in Photoshop if pressure sensitivity works in the Windows SDK examples and in the different Microsoft applications. Thanks for being so patient. I am very new to this type of application work.

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

I suspect the SDK example is using the more limited pressure API, not the "kitchen sink and more" API designed to deal with things like pen angle, rotation, etc. Yes, Microsoft has multiple API hooks for tablets.

[pt...@adobeforums.com]

N-trig in Alias Sketchbook is workable and support pressure sensitivity:

maybe, it working with basic function now,

maybe, photoshop needs requirement too much to do same thing

[ha...@adobeforums.com]

Yeah, this is such a thorn in the flesh. Do refer to this post as well <http://www.touchsmartcommunity.com/forum/thread/423/TouchSmart-tx2-1020-with-Photoshop-Corel-ARRRGH-PLEASE-HELP/;jsessionid=61705C16D82F34EF17E25FB8AA2713C0?page=2>. We should really get the manufacturers to stand up and take notice, and add a patch do the drivers would work!

[nick_...@adobeforums.com]

N-Trig will supposedly put the SDK for the DuoSense on their website at <http://www.n-trig.com/Usa/Content.aspx?Page=SupportSDK>. But it has been several weeks with the same message so I'm not too hopeful. Also, the DuoSense SDK probably won't be the same for everyone - does the Latitude XT use Duosense? Not sure.

I would LOVE to get Photoshop up and running with this sensitivity bit. It's pretty hilarious as HP offers Photoshop Elements as a software bundle with the computer and it doesn't even work properly!

[Smartweb...@adobeforums.com]

I just got an e-mail from the people at N-Trig after I tried posting a comment in the n-trig.com support section regarding the lack of pressure sensitivity in Photoshop. They didn't end up posting it to the site to be viewed publicly. I am guessing this is because in the comment I suggested people buy Wacom enabled tablet PC's until N-Trig fixed their pressure issues in Photoshop.

Here is the e-mail I received:

* ****************************************

Dear Tim,

Thank you for your email.

Regarding your issues concerning pressure, please note that the pressure data is publically available and used by most applications, including Windows Office, Windows Journal, ArtRage and so on. It can therefore easily be extracted and used.

For any further issues with your computer, it would probably be worth contacting HP.

Debbie Gold Hadar
Business Development
N-trig Ltd.

* ****************************************

She says the pressure data is available for most applications, and then proceeds to only list Microsoft applications and an obscure graphics program that no one has ever heard of. Instead of then offering a helpful suggestion on how to fix my problem, she directs me to contact HP with any issues.

[nick_...@adobeforums.com]

Very similar to the email I got, though mine was longer. I contacted them a week or so ago in the same way that Tim did: through the support section of their website in the comment area. I have replied and sent emails to n-trig, but the only one that has received a response is the one to the comments area. I recommend that everyone here send N-trig comments about the problems they are having. I'm sure people at N-trig use Adobe so it's pretty odd that this issue hasn't been worked out.

* ***************************************** Dear Nick,

Thank you for your mail. We’re very glad to hear that you enjoy working with DuoSense.

DuoSense does support full pressure-sensitivity. For example, if you open Microsoft Journal, and select Tools => Options => Pen Settings, there is a Pressure Sensitivity checkbox which can be selected, and doing so enables full pressure sensitivity in all supported applications.

Other examples of applications that support pressure sensitivity with DuoSense, are the Windows Office applications, the ArtRage graphical application to name but two.

Regarding your issue concerning specific software that does not support DuoSense pressure sensitivity, such as Adobe, we recommend that you consult with the Customer Support department of that software’s manufacturer.

Thank you for visiting our website and taking the trouble to contact us.

Kind regards,

[ste...@adobeforums.com]

"Windows Office" maybe she meant Microsoft Office?

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

This sounds a lot like they didn't test their drivers with professional applications. I'll bet they only did the simple (incomplete) API and not the full information API.

If Photoshop isn't seeing pressure from their device, it's because their device isn't providing pressure information to all the Windows APIs correctly.

[nick_...@adobeforums.com]

It looks as if Wintab API has been involved in some sort of legal entangles (http://www.pointing.com/Wintab.html) and it isn't clear that N-trig is even using Wintab. If they were, pressure sensitivity would work in GIMP and Inkscape, as these two programs use GTK+ which is written for Wintab API.

In fact, though N-trig hasn't gotten back to me, I suspect that it's drivers are written with TabletPC InkCanvas API

(http://download.microsoft.com/download/2/e/1/2e169763-03fc-4822-a7a4-abe753e526e3/pdc_2005_windowsvista%20-%20tabletenabledapplications.ppt)

If that were the case, does anyone know if that would prevent Adobe from recognizing the presence of the tablet?

[Ja...@adobeforums.com]

This is the only thing keeping from purchasing Dell's new XT2 :(

[dave_...@adobeforums.com]

tell dell that jarem! i'm sure they'd love that information.

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Nick - I think you've got the right idea.

[Smartweb...@adobeforums.com]

Chris - What is the exact API hook called that Photoshop looks to for input from a stylus? Do you know of any documentation that is available from Adobe for companies looking to make their products fully supported by Photoshop in the area of pressure sensitivity? Thanks.

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

No, Adobe has no documentation on the tablet APIs we use. We shouldn't have to document that - the tablet maker should just implement the platform APIs for tablets. (but it sounds like this company may not realize that Windows has more than one API)

[boobies...@adobeforums.com]

ok, so what api is adobe listening for? this would be the class or events that n-trig would have to dispatch events for, correct? if we know what ps is looking for then we can contact n-trig and have them support that api. tell us what to tell n-trig and everybody can mass email them and hp with this letter. thanks

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Tell them to support the full Windows tablet APIs, including Wintab.

[Håvard_Øygård@adobeforums.com]

I found an interview from last March with a VP in N-Trig, where he has this to say:

"Our digitizers are pressure sensitive. Any apps that accept pressure sensitivity will show up. We are happy to work with developers to ensure compatibility to WinTab. For Windows pressure messages, WinTab is out of date and is a legacy. ISV’s should work with N-trig and MS to make sure pressure is implemented."

That's a somewhat mixed message, but that bit about WinTab being out of date and legacy makes it look a little like their response might be a WONTFIX.

[Chri...@adobeforums.com]

Well, we did work with Microsoft. But it sounds like N-Trig didn't. WinTab is currently the only way to get all the pressure/rotation/angle/other bits from tablets. The newer tablet API is very minimal, and doesn't supply all the needed information (it has other holes as well, but they're on the list to be fixed).

[d...@adobeforums.com]

I was seriously considering buying a Dell Latitude XT2 to replace my current laptop (we are an all Dell outfit). If N-Trig's position is that they will not support WinTab then my response to their WONTFIX is WONTBUY (I'm not sure that's a reason code, but still)! A tablet with no pressure sensitivity in Adobe applications is useless to me. Is it worth me trying to put pressure on via my Dell account rep, or has anyone got any other suggestions?

Ideally I'd want a tablet PC with a 100% Adobe RGB panel, a non-integrated GPU (though still low power) and Wacom Intuos 3 compatible (or Wacom equivalent) tablet features - which means tilt, rotation and airbrush wheel support. Surely I'm not the only one after the designer's / photographer's tablet PC?

[Håvard_Øygård@adobeforums.com]

Chris, I agree - this is entirely N-Trig's issue, not Adobe's. FWIW, I've now sent my tx2z back to HP (thank heavens for European consumer protection laws and their no-questions-asked return periods). I've also written to them complaining about this issue.

It's a real pity that no reviews of the tx2z or XT2 have picked up on this point. It's an important point which IMO would be a serious deal-breaker for many people if it were more widely known. Also, negative reviews may be the only way to spur N-Trig into action.

[Ja...@adobeforums.com]

@djw: I completely agree. I simply can't recommend Dell's XT2 to any of my graphic design buddies if it doesn't support the basic pen features we're used to. Especially given the price.

I also question N-Trig's support... they don't seem to even recognize that a problem exist or at least state they're working on a solution in the future.

Oh well, looks like I'm going with the Lenovo's ThinkPad X Tablet for now.

[d...@adobeforums.com]

Jarem - thanks for mentioning the Lenovo - that's maybe something I should be looking into.

I've posted on the Dell forums at <http://en.community.dell.com/forums/p/19262038/19441981.aspx#19441981> - I wait to see if that brings anything constructive.