A Lump Of Coal In An Otherwise Well Filled Stocking...

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

Congratulations have been poured (quite rightly so) on the fantastic achievments that the zombies have made in getting 1.0 coded, packaged, and released. This is not to negate these praises in any way whatsoever, but I don't think I am alone (certainly won't be now that 1.0 is on the street, and new users start pouring into these forums) in not just wanting, but really NEEDING some straight answers to some straight questions.

I, and I am sure others, started working seriously with Atmosphere in the belief that it would in time become a standard in regards to the display of online and offline dynamic content. As such we have, and have had for some time, an intention to make Atmopshere our tool of choice in new or existing commercial ventures. We have, and will continue to, be spending great deals of time, effort, and probably money on building, coding, texturing, and everything else that goes into engineering Atmosphere scenes and applications. Just as we expect Adobe to answer our questions regarding development and use of the Builder and Plugin, so our customers will expect us to answer their questions and address their needs, and to be able to do this, some critical information needs to be forthcoming from Adobe.

1.) Will the Atmosphere Plugin be made cross-browser and cross-platform? Meaning, full and parallel support for not only Internet Explorer, but also at least Netscape, if not Safari, Opera, and the few other less popular but equally valid and important browsers out there such as AOL and Lynx, and not just on PC's, but also Macintosh and LINUX?

2.) Will there be a full, parallel Atmosphere Builder available for Macintosh and LINUX machines as it is for PC's?

3.) Will there be any guarantees in regard to continued YACP capacity, support & uptime?

Speaking for myself, I need these answers sooner rather than later - if Atmosphere does not develop beyond an IE/PC only application, I cannot justify it's use as a complete solution for all customers - and I really, really want to be able to do that.

It is not my intention to nag about this, or seem ungrateful for the wonderful tool that we have had the priviledge to play with free of charge for the last few years - I just need to know if it is worth continuing to use Atmosphere as a product commercially, or simply keep it for fun whilst moving to some other (less interesting, less easy-to-use, more expensive, but more widely supported) product for professional purposes.

[Lauren...@adobeforums.com]

addressing points 1 and 2 hows about this
Grab a group of Penguins/Daemons and plunk them down with two things

1 A copy of the current source code tree( ie a CVS login/password)

2 An NDA/Contract

Then walk away
Basically the Contract would say shut up and code for "nonsupported" platforms. Since a POSIX port would do LINUX ppc, LINUX Intel and OSX
the Flock/Horde woudl satisfy the "other" platforms and provide for an escape when Bill Gates decides that His Platform will no longer support
this Inferior (meaning not our) Product.
Me i think that MOZAtmo would ROCK

[Atmosp...@adobeforums.com]

It will take a long time but Microsoft's dominance although vicelike appears to be in line to falter. For Atmosphere IE naturally gets priority when most use it but those creating a next generation product expecting long life and wide use will be anticipating the trends. With more government departments and large organizations signing up to trial LINUX and the neverending news reports of internet newbies disgruntled with the inherent insecurity of Windows off-the-shelf, is there a more diverse future ahead? There aren't many serious graphics programs around that aren't for the mac, are there? Most of Adobe's products even on the tryout page appear to have a mac version.

[alien...@adobeforums.com]

is bill gates going to do something like u said...I thiink he would better make the player a default option in Win XXL :P

[Lauren...@adobeforums.com]

is bill gates going to do something like u said...I thiink he would better make the player a default option in Win XXL

-----------------
Any Tech He sees chooses from the following 1 gets bought 2 gets "acquired" 3 gets killed
The one reason that he made MSIE was he wanted to make sure that Netscape didn't kill Windows
Windows Media Player was because of Real Player
Office got him into offices
Its the Borg/Python way of life

[Ingrid...@adobeforums.com]

Sticking with the subject...

As a designer, I would LOVE to offer Atmo services to my customers. I plan to, but unfortunately, I will have to explain the limitations of the format. That isn't going to be a fabulous selling point as most clients won't shell out their very hard earned moola for something that isn't going to reach all of their potential market.

Waiting for an Adobe response. Our hopes are up, what have you got to say zombies?

[Ro...@adobeforums.com]

<Pre...@adobeforums.com> wrote in message
news:2ccf1...@webx.la2eafNXanI...

> 1.) Will the Atmosphere Plugin be made cross-browser and cross-platform?
Meaning, full and parallel support for not only Internet Explorer, but also
at least Netscape, if not Safari, Opera, and the few other less popular but
equally valid and important browsers out there such as AOL and Lynx, and not
just on PC's, but also Macintosh and LINUX?
>

With the plugin currently being an ActiveX kind of plugin it's going to work
on windows/IE and possibly windows/(netscape/mozilla/similar). Opera does
not support ActiveX plugins, so it's not going to work there without some
serious changes. As for macs, viewpoint recently made their plugin available
on the mac platform, and since the Atmo plugin plugs into that there is at
least a possibility that the Atmo plugin will be ported too. Porting to
other platforms would depend on what the team wants to do. It is in Adobe's
interest to have the plugin be available in as many places as possible, so I
wouldn't rule it out - but I can't give a certain answer either.

> 2.) Will there be a full, parallel Atmosphere Builder available for
Macintosh and LINUX machines as it is for PC's?
>

Maybe, maybe not...

> 3.) Will there be any guarantees in regard to continued YACP capacity,
support & uptime?
>

YACP, as in, the protocol itself, or as in the server Adobe provides?
Considering you ask for uptime, I assume you mean the server they have
running. For any serious commercial project you can't and shouldn't rely on
this server. Adobe has it running so they have a place to test it and so we
have a server for small projects and testing purposes. They have said they
don't plan to pull it any time soon, but considering they provide it for
free they don't have any obligation to keep it up. The solution for large
projects would be to run your own server (the code is sorta available if you
ask nice, and should be available for real sometime in the future :-), or to
get your customers a server, or to find a hosting service that wants to run
one for you.

Rolu

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

Thanks Rolu for your input...

I was referring to YACP as a protocol - we already have a copy running on our own servers, it just stopped working about the time the 1.0 plugin and/or builder was released, so I am just concerned about reliability there of the protocol in general.

Whilst I would like to see a builder version for Mac, it is in and of itself not nearly as important as a plugin for other browsers/platforms - as I stated before, it is one thing to make demands of developers as to what hardware and software they use, but we can never do that of our clients!

[mich...@adobeforums.com]

I m looking forward, think, there will be a link to the download of the colaborationserver in the fullversion of Atmosphere 1, its an important part of it, so... it will be on the CD, I m sure :)

[Ro...@adobeforums.com]

<Pre...@adobeforums.com> wrote in message
news:2ccf1...@webx.la2eafNXanI...

> I was referring to YACP as a protocol - we already have a copy running on
our own servers, it just stopped working about the time the 1.0 plugin
and/or builder was released, so I am just concerned about reliability there
of the protocol in general.
>

You might have a too old copy now. Stuff has been added all the way along so
unless you have updated close before, or after the 1.0 release, you would
still have an old beta version. Best get a new copy, or wait for the
official release of the server.

Rolu

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

Aha, that would explain some things - although not why I have seen absolutely no post from Adobe explaining that YACP was beta software, and subject to upgrades...you'd think that for the few people who went to the trouble of signing contracts, etc. and installing the server, that they could have been kept up to date with upgrade information :D

[Frances...@adobeforums.com]

I agree with Preach (by the way, Preach, why don't u answer mails?! :-))...I'd like to have an explanation...for many of us this is a very important thing!

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

At any given time, my inbox is clogged with at least 80 or 90 mails. I have written a special formula to help people know when they can expect replies...

response.time=(free.time-((backlog+total.new)-spam))*typing.speed

In my defence, I only have one outstanding mail from you, unless you have just sent a bunch of others :P

[_minger_]

Your formula omits the fact that you'll probably accidentally open one piece of spam in 100, and that'll waste a few seconds. :P

[Frances...@adobeforums.com]

Outstanidng bunch of mails! ;-)

[alien...@adobeforums.com]

Sunny Mixed by Jono Fernandez
bmw:sorri for notepaddin'

[A Davey]

What are you on about? :|

[alien...@adobeforums.com]

Sunny Mixed by Jono Fernandez
bmw:sorri for notepaddin'

bmw2:just cant upload that (101mb/73:45min)

[staffan...@hampa.net]

lol, I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by alien angels posts. Sorry alien, but sometimes you're just too confusing for me :)

[alien...@adobeforums.com]

I know ...thats just the music I play here..so sorry cant share :(

[staffan...@hampa.net]

Why don't you build a world with your music so everyone can listen? You can convert the mp3's into streaming windows media files, that way it'll be easy for us to listen.

[Ingrid...@adobeforums.com]

Back to the subject...

With the plugin currently being an ActiveX kind of plugin it's going to work
on windows/IE and possibly windows/(netscape/mozilla/similar). Opera does
not support ActiveX plugins, so it's not going to work there without some
serious changes. As for macs, viewpoint recently made their plugin available
on the mac platform, and since the Atmo plugin plugs into that there is at
least a possibility that the Atmo plugin will be ported too. Porting to
other platforms would depend on what the team wants to do. It is in Adobe's
interest to have the plugin be available in as many places as possible, so I
wouldn't rule it out - but I can't give a certain answer either.

Why not?

2.) Will there be a full, parallel Atmosphere Builder available for Macintosh
and LINUX machines as it is for PC's?

Maybe, maybe not...

Why not?

[aNdYmAtTeR]

yup, and we can argue til the cows come home with no difference in the end. But sometimes it helps to be alive and kickin' so don't give up. Anything that will shorten the dominance of the Microsoft empire is actually worth concidering :)

[aNdYmAtTeR]

So the questions are answered with a unanimous roaring "MAYBE"!!! Good to know :)

[Jim...@adobeforums.com]

My guess:
If version 1.0 for Windows is judged "successful", it will be extended to other platforms. Otherwise no.
Might not be a Zombie decision, but higher up in Adobe.

Therefore no one would know yet.
Therefore "maybe".

Just a guess.

[Ingrid...@adobeforums.com]

But Jim! How can you have a feasibility study if you don't reach all (or most) users? I can't sell Atmosphere to my clients in its limited format, although I will be doing my best to showcase it out of loyalty.

The price for Atmo1 is too high for a test run. I would think that Adobe would offer it at a price at least under $75 to get it out there and being used. I hope that the higher ups aren't putting pressure on the team to be an income producing department, yet.

With these things in the way, I don't see that Atmo will have enough advantages if that is in fact the plan. Perhaps Adobe WANTS to shelve this project. What a shame if they do. A little patience would be a better investment on the part of Adobe.

This is all speculation of course. Perhaps the vague answers we have gotten are the result of the team not knowing what is going to happen next.

[Jim...@adobeforums.com]

Aren't 85% of users (more?) using Windows and MSIE?
Isn't that enough of a market to get going with?

I'd say lack of Windows AOL user access is the first problem to tackle, then cross-platform.

[Frances...@adobeforums.com]

Actually it's 93% of the home market...that, more or less it's the target the 3D has right now.As for the other points, I agree with Joe.
BTW, Preach ANSWER!!! :-))))))

[mich...@adobeforums.com]

That the builder is working only on WinXP is ok for me. That the plugin is working with IE5 or 6 ... donno, Netscape would be also nice, were also working time ago. But something is making me nervous: time ago, I was told, the normal builder and the collaborationserver will stay free and a probuilder will come for a price at maybe $300, but no one knows the price exactly. Now we have one builder for $400 in the USA or $760 in Germany. Thats also ok, we have to deal with that, helps nothing. But where is the collaborationserver? When I pay $760 for Atmo here, after that, I have to ask for a copy for this server? Maybe, I will get it? Or do I have to buy this server also?
Maybe here <http://www.pelicancrossing.com/IWPricing.htm>
Would be nice to know more, also more about the bug in the collaborationserver. The Beta is finished. Think, some people will wonder, when they buy Atmosphere and after that they have no clue, how to connect the worlds.
Otherwise, Atmosphere is a cool software. Would be nice to see, that it is successful.

[Lauren...@adobeforums.com]

Zombies only please answer

1 Contents of the CD ie Builder /Plugin/ Server /Extra Content?
2 correct address to request server download link?
3 The Free Version is a Pre Keyed copy of the actual product?

[A Davey]

Can I piggyback on your post, Laurence, with the question.......

given that we won't be entitled (naturally!) to free upgrades, will we be entitled to download any patches that are issued for Version 1?

[Micha...@adobeforums.com]

<http://www.pelicancrossing.com/IWPricing.htm>

errrr, is it April the first or something???

[aNdYmAtTeR]

Michael, read what Clive Jackson wrote here! <http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?128@@.2ccf1d78>

[Micha...@adobeforums.com]

Thanks Andy.

[Ingrid...@adobeforums.com]

Okay Jim, given the above statistics, I still can't justify the cost without being able to reach mac users or people using Netscape. It seems that Rolu has answered this question already and I can look forward to a patch or a player that will accommodate these users.

[_minger_]

A. Davey wrote <http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?14@@.2ccf13e2/29>:

given that we won't be entitled (naturally!) to free upgrades, will we
be entitled to download any patches that are issued for Version 1?

Well, if I remember correctly, the Acrobat team has offered patches as free downloads before. I sure hope they would, because I'm still stuck on Win98SE, and I'd rush to d/l any patch that's going to allow Atmo to install on my system. :)

[Eri...@adobeforums.com]

I am sorry to say this but if you check in the forum Michael Kaplan (from memory) said it would be a once only deal for testers ie no updates.

[_minger_]

But by updates, do you think he meant new versions, or new anything? If he meant that we won't get anything free after the package they're (hopefully) mailing to each of us, then I'm stuck - I might have to sell my copy when I get it. :(

[Ra...@adobeforums.com]

I don't think the free version will be saleable. It's given freely to the beta testers and isn't intended to be sold.
I think Erik is correct tho, I don't think there will be any updates/upgrades allowed with the free version.

[A Davey]

Ummmnnnnnn........I dunno, not being techie-minded, I always understood 'patches' to be a different type of animal to 'updates'. 'Patches', I thought, were downloadable bits to plug the inevitable holes that show up once a full working version goes on general release.

*eternal optimist*

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

Just to complicate matters (or perhaps simplify them)...

<http://news.com.com/2100-1045-1017126.html>

and

<http://news.com.com/2100-1032-1011859.html?tag=nl>

Viewpoint have released the VMP for Safari :)

[Jim...@adobeforums.com]

Adobe's other products that i have (Photoshop, Photo Album and GoLive) have automatic download of patches whenever you start them up. But the annual or so updates always have a substantial cost and represent new versions of the product.

[Ingrid...@adobeforums.com]

Read those articles they are very important!

[Ger...@adobeforums.com]

Hi! It has been my understanding that "updates," which usually include the patches, are free downloads. "Upgrades," which usually are reflected by a change in one of the major version numbers, include (hopefully) significant advancements or features. Upgrades tend to mean get out the check book. At least this is my experience with other softwares.

Happy New Year to all!

Gerardy

[Ra...@adobeforums.com]

<http://news.com.com/2100-1045-1017126.html>

and

<http://news.com.com/2100-1032-1011859.html?tag=nl>

It's just another way for microslop to become the Dominant/only operating system.

[Eri...@adobeforums.com]

Agnes, updates and patches. Often companies deliberately confuse the two so they don't spook their customers ('patch? does that mean the best of breed product we bought was faulty'?) ('update? gee it sounds critical, i better download it'!)

[Eri...@adobeforums.com]

here is a press release on their current attitude to Macs:
<http://www.zdnet.com.au/builder/webdesign/graphics/story/0,2000039740,20280074,00.htm>

[Ma...@adobeforums.com]

Attitude towards Macs: Clear as Mud.

A lot of content that we view regularly on PC is created on Macs. They have always had stronger multimedia programs because the hardware is better engineered for that sort of thing. As I understand it Adobe has a commitment to provide Mac versions of everything in their product line (unless that has been retracted). I don't buy the concept that there isn't enough demand for Atmosphere on the Mac.

On the other hand, there is no Mac version of Viewpoint, and I'm not sure about Havoc. Ditto for Linux.

Look at the financials for Viewpoint and you will get the shivers. IPO at $30+ now at less than a buck, with real income close to zero. I doubt they are doing any serious product development at this time and are (according to their 4th quarter financial statement), just hustling sales to AOL and a couple of others (I didn't see Adobe listed as a customer).

Maybe Adobe should try and acquire Viewpoint, or absent that move toward a version of Atmosphere not so closely tied to Windows.

I hope Atmosphere DOES become a standard along the same level as Flash (which works fine on my Linux and OS X boxes). But I don't see such standardization happening with it serving only as a plug-in for IE (and fairly specific version of IE at that).

I'd even be interested in seeing Linux and OS X versions of Atmo WITHOUT Havoc or Viewpoint support. I have no idea how hard it would be to split those out at this point though. Something simple that could present simple 3D content is what was envisioned by VRML, which has failed to become commonplace. I'd like to see Atmo succeed where VRML failed. The people at Adobe need to WANT that to happen too, and at the moment I'm not sure they are thinking about it.

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

MacB, Adobe actually owns a large chunk of Viewpoint. The Viewpoint Media Player is available for Mac OSX (Safari and IE), as of a few weeks ago, so we are just waiting for Mozilla, and then Scenebuilder of course, which is in the works. So all good news there...Viewpoint seem to have the right idea, which is - to become a standard, you need full cross platform cross browser support. Sure it takes time, but at least we know Viewpoint have that goal. We don't yet know that about Atmosphere unfortunately.
Otherwise, I agree with you - Mac's remain the professional's content creation tool of choice, and Atmosphere, as a content creation tool, will reach a larger Mac market than Adobe anticipate.

[A Davey]

Mac's remain the professional's content creation tool of choice

poisonally I think Mac is losing the race :P

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

It depends how you look at it - Apples biggest section of it's market IS content creation professionals, and they are safe in that market - people pay premium because they want Mac hardware and software. The flip side to that coin is that Apple cannot increase market share in a sector of the market which is already Mac saturated.
Overall PC market share covers large market segments where Apple isn’t competing — including markets where Apple doesn’t want to compete...so quoting Apple's market share as a percentage of overall PC's in the world just cannot be done. Apple simply doesn’t make machines that would be good choices for the extremely low-end tasks that Windows machines oft-quoted "95% market share" makes up such a large part of...

[aNdYmAtTeR]

with risking to open a pandoras box by asking I feel the need need to ask anyway and I have no idea what Mac is about so you don't have to kill me if I ask, please :)

the Question: Why is Mac such a good computer for multimedia and what ever???

* running as fast as possible and his behind a big tree*

[A Davey]

.........but then you're just biased ROTFL

I wouldn't take a Mac as a gift, because so few programs are made for it. It doesn't matter how much scorn Mac-users pour on Windoze, people will buy PCs that allow them to have a large choice of software. I like the fact that I can get so many free/cheap programs for Windows. I don't want to belong to the select few, I want to belong to the happy masses with lots of choices.

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

Which is fair enough A Davey, that's everyone's own choice. But in this environment for example - what software do you have that I don't, or can't get?

APART FROM ATMOSPHERE I MEAN!!! :P

A couple of specific 3D apps maybe, but then there are others that are fine for Mac. And is all that choice, that few really take advantage of - gamers is the one (major) group I can think of - worth the amount of general hassle and expense you personally have had to endure in making sure your machine actually runs properly? In the time I have known you, there have been at least 3 MAJOR upgrades, motherboard and all, stripping machines down to get parts to make another run, new Hard drives, etc, etc. My own sad PC here is also defunct and needs serious overhauls, which I just cannot justify the expense for when the ONLY thing I need it for is Atmosphere. Everything else, software and hardware, I have a perfectly good, reliable, Mac for. I wouldn't change for the world. Choices :)

Edit to add : lol Martin!

[aNdYmAtTeR]

I jumped on a some sort of education program a few years ago,around 2000. everything was done on iMac computers and they where a pain!

Then from that i made Flash animations and some coding at a small business for a while at an iMac and we hated each other!!!

Now I've been engineering around in a recording studio since last summer running Digidesign Pro Tools (no, not atmo pro tools :)) and Mac is still a riddle to me. It's like working with your hands tied to you back.

to be honest I've never gotten under the hood of a Mac and really tried to understand it. It just keeps fighting back so there is just no point, I feel. I just use mac if i have to and maybe that's wrong?

PC is just no problem for my way of thinking. But then again the problem with PC starts with M and ends with icrosoft. If it wasn't for their arrogant, lazy, unimagintive, powerhungry, monopolistic way of thinking that they own all computers and have the right to do whatever they want "on behalf of the consumers" everything would be just fine :)

[Marti...@adobeforums.com]

What's the best way to speed up a Mac?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|

|
Drop it out of a higher window :)

Just a joke, no offence intended lol

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

That's another side of it - my girlfriend is a producer, swears by Mac as well, and from what I can tell, her entire (considerable) circle of contacts - musicians and producers - all use Mac. You are just not taken seriously without one in that world. (Although that might say more about musicians than computers!)
Mac has never really had a hood to get under, not until OSX, where you can now get your hands as dirty as you like if you are a *NIX person, which I happen to be.
iMac's were (are) horrible things, my daughter has one, but that's more to keep her away from mine than in any belief that it'll do her any good, lol. That's real anti-computing in a plastic technicoloured case!
I have no particular problem with PC's at all - like you, my problem is with MS. I just don't wanna live in a world of security patches and updates.

[Jim...@adobeforums.com]

Back when windows was unreliable and Mac was reliable, i could see content creation people paying the extra $ for a Mac. They didn't have to learn to keep Windows running.

Now Macs seem to be more complex/less reliable than previously (just my impression) and Windows 2K and XP are pretty darn reliable. I just don't see a reason to get a Mac now.

For example:
1. I don't ONLY create content, i run a biz, play games and do everyting else compute-wize on the same machine. And i use an older networked PC for storing media assetts and for long renders. Don't see any need for a seperate, expensive Mac just for content creation.

2. All programs i need are available in Windows versions. I don't see that i'm missing anything, except paying more.

3. Most new software is now developed for Windows first (like Atmo), so being on that platform gives me the advantage of being involved in those.

I see most Mac folks now feel they must have a PC as well (or an emulator). But the reverse is not true.

Seems to me the only really compelling reason to buy Macs now is to "join the club", so that other content creators won't "look down on you". In other words as a "defacto standard", it has momentum. Happily, i don't have to impress anyone with my hardware or join any clubs (other than Windows) to do biz.

And, since i assemble my own PCs (i think that's not possible with Mac) the price differential is really large. And i get the added flexibility and reliability and power from selecting the best components from a large field of competing hardware vendors.

I'm glad the Mac is still there, because competition is good for everyone (just look at that great Windows/Intel hardware selection for an example).

[A Davey]

Yeah, what he said LOL

[mich...@adobeforums.com]

Think, allsytems have their advantages and their disadvatages.
A Mac has a cool look and feel, when you desire it and the progs are fine for you, why not?
A PC is not so expensive and you can drive it with different OS`s.
Whith a bootmanager, maybe.
On a PC, you can use
Windows
Linux
BeOS
Solarisx86
Os2
donno, what else
All of this operating systems have their advantages and disadvanteges, what I think. Everyone should do, what is making her or him happy.
When in summertime the new AMD64 cpus are going on market, when also XPpro64AMD is out of beta and on market, when PCIexpress is on market with a new generation of grafikcards, for what I cannt wait...
maybe, that will change then my mind, but so far....donno :)

[Eri...@adobeforums.com]

I learnt on a Mac in the late 80s (unless you count a programmable calculator)but now I don't have a Mac, they have less software, they are far better than PCS -ie OsX is great-but more expensive. .then again it should not take much to convert between UNIX and OsX...

Another example, until recently, only Macs could drive several monitors at once (like really large screens) compared to PCs.
Very useful in visualisation departments.

I applied for a job last year in a Computer Department, multimedia and 3D stuff. The only workstations for students were Macs.

Conclusion: you guys are biased. I am not ROTL

[Chris_A...@adobeforums.com]

RE: multi-platform support...
We have chosen to support the MS platform for our 1.0 release for several valid reasons. As noted, this support covers about 90% of the market and is a reasonable undertaking for a 1.0 product. Of course we'd like to support as many platforms as possible...

RE: patches/updates/upgrades...
If it is necessary to fix any problems in the 1.0 release, we will release a free patch/update. Any new features would be in a 1.5 or 2.0 paid upgrade.

Finally, the free trial download of Atmosphere 1.0 should is fully functional and should be more than enough for someone to get a feel for the app and decide if they wish to purchase.

Chris Arkenberg
Atmosphere QE Lead

[Andrew...@adobeforums.com]

Welcome back Chris.

Andrew

[Ra...@adobeforums.com]

Nice one Chris. :)

That's called "getting back on the subject" :D

[Apk...@adobeforums.com]

Internet belongs to PCs, just google and search something for mac.

For me the best workstation in the media industry its the SGI silicon graphics, not a mac, the industry cant be wrong.

check here: <http://www.sgi.com/>

BTW: with the money of a mac i can buy a "monster PC" to work with media and whatever i want, and.....easy upgradable...easy to get support.

[Lauren...@adobeforums.com]

what would really be a mindblower is having a LFSCD that could boot a machine and then (after configuring net access) load a world

[hmmm there are several LINUX based Live FileSystem CDs but no Windows ones]

Chris i still say that the easy way to get POSIX platforms is to buy a flock of penguins and throw the source code into the pool (note did not say ocean)

[Ma...@adobeforums.com]

--------------------------------------------
aNdYmAtTeR - 06:27am Jan 6, 2004 Pacific (#51 of 65)

with risking to open a pandoras box by asking I feel the need need to ask anyway and I have no idea what Mac is about so you don't have to kill me if I ask, please

the Question: Why is Mac such a good computer for multimedia and what ever???

--------------------------------------------

A Davey - 06:29am Jan 6, 2004 Pacific (#52 of 65)

I wouldn't take a Mac as a gift, because so few programs are made for it. It doesn't matter how much scorn Mac-users pour on Windoze, people will buy PCs that allow them to have a large choice of software. I like the fact that I can get so many free/cheap programs for Windows. I don't want to belong to the select few, I want to belong to the happy masses with lots of choices.

----------------------------------------------

There are three or four factors that distinguish Apple computers right now.

While clock speeds between Power PC and Intel processors are debated endlessly, the Power PC as its name implies was designed from scratch to work like a big kick-ass mainframe computer from the beginning. All Intel processors (so far) inherit instruction sets from the earliest machines which had a 1 Meg maximum address space. The Intel architecture in fact layers larger and larger address space rules so that binary programs from 8086, 80286, 80486 and pentiums continue to work. At no point did Intel want to take a chance in having customers have to do a binary upgrade (recompile every single program) because such an upgrade cycle might cause them to consider other architectures. There are in fact a few components of Windows (as of 2000 at least) that are still based on the old 16-bit architecture of the 486. If you have ever programmed in assembler you will know that in such an environment you have to code about twice as many instructions just to control (for example) looping through an array of numbers and adding them up.

The PowerPC in fact has array instruction built in which allow you to point the processor at arrays of number and have them added without loop controls at all (this is generally referred to as array processing). To take advantage of this, of course you have to change your program. Programs written for the PC and ported to PowerPC often don't take advantage of the hardware in this way, but some programs, like graphics and animation programs used by Hollywood have been written especially for array processing systems and generally run circles around the PC equivalents.

One thing that helped "save Intels ass" so to speak was that in the late 90's more and more graphics processing was moved off the motherboard and onto the graphics processors from nVidea etc. This essentially made the processing power differences between Pentium and PowerPC undetectable by the average home user. Hollywood also abandoned Apple for the most part when ore of there work was moved to large clusters of PCs where the rendering work could be done in the background rather than on a single PC. These are generally Linux machines these days. Windows never got a foothold there.

The other factors that distinguish the Apple computers are: (1) hardware and software are designed to work together, by the same people, (2) hardware design is conservative, no burning out the process by running it too long at full speeds as is possible with Pentiums, (3) most importantly these days, OS X is a REAL operating system based on Unix whereas Windows is the child of a shotgun wedding between the DEC VMS operating system and Windows 95. OS X is almost un-crashable, and the sub components tend to be more stable too. The finger pointing that goes one between applications, hardware and operating systems that goes on in the Windows world is almost (but not completely) absent in the Apple world.

Davey: I find that the shareware/freeware world that existed in the 80's for Windows is largely gone. The closest thing I can find to that now is the Open Source world of Linux. I do all my "work" related activities on either Linux or OS X and only run Windows these days for (1) Second Life, and (2) Atmosphere. There is a beta version of SL for the Apple computers now and a Linux version on the way. My goal is to eliminate my remaining Windows dependencies and Atmo may be the last issue I have to deal with.

Anyone who want to compare costs alone should clearly be running Linux. Apple has the best commercial operating system, Linux the best free one, and Windows is the worst of both. Anyone who doesn't see the tide changing hasn't been watching the ocean long enough. :)

[alien...@adobeforums.com]

hey who the fock is Mac? and whats his connection with Firewire?
(dunno whos firewire either!?@@)

[A Davey]

LOL, I see your lips moving, but understand none of it :D

What you (and Preach) say makes perfect sense - in a world where people are computer-savvy. But most people (like me) just want something that works an acceptable amount of time, so commercial pressure will be to service that market. Macs look complicated, and my head starts hurting when the words Linux or Solaris are mentioned. I can understand how aggravating it is when you know one product is superior to another, but (to quote Cecil B. DeMille) "No-one ever lost a fortune by underestimating the taste of the public". We want what's easy, we don't want to pay too much for it, and if it crashes all the time....so be it.

[A Davey]

At last, the voice of reason enters the discussion ROTFL

I rest my case ;)

[alien...@adobeforums.com]

and what about "firewire"? who is she? and whats her purpose?
Im serious asking that 'cause there is a psytrance track ...mmm not sure by whom it was (99% bet on sweedish or no no may be Electrick uNIVERSE ..DOESNT MATTER REALLY)...well it was called that way and i want to know what it was meant to be ...i guess a port or somthing that should deal with externals - >????

and bmw: I understand that Mac is a powerful but narrowminded personel with some very sophisticated manners of expression ...dont wanna know him - from what Ive read up here :p

[alien...@adobeforums.com]

??>?

[aNdYmAtTeR]

mmm

I wouldn't use a dragster car to the grossery store to get the food home. Maybe an ignorant thing to say, but I just need a tool that I can use.

The thing wiht the Mac is that I can't use it! Why?

In a nearby room to the studio we had a G4 that wasn't used at the moment and since the G3 in the studio running Pro Tools is OK but other tasks take "forever" we thought we should swap the two. Just take the three ProTools cards + graphix card + SCSI card = 5 cards out of the G3 and put it ... oooops!!! Just 3 PCI places in in the G4! Is there some way round that problem by the way???

Another day I had some files on a CD I tried to use. All I had to do was to open the CD-dri...v...e...! Nope, sorry no CD-drive!!! But you could get an external SCSI CD-drive. Brilliant solution! Of course we had one of those, but someone had borrowed it and not put it back and that's why I noticed, so no problem for me. Not so if I'd bought a Mac at home with less cash left after the purchase. SCSI stuff aint cheap.

And no floppy drive ... I know, it's 2004 but anyway ...

Talking about mouse manouvering, most of the time I could do without the mouse, and be extremely happy with it. The mouse is sometimes a good tool but most of the time it's just a dumb, slow, tedious way of doing somthing that should be done by smacking a few keys.

One day the mouse decided to go belly up. What do you do on a Mac when the mouse stops responding.

So Mac won't get any extrapoints from me for relying so much on the mouse :)

And one mouse button???

mmm seems like we're not talking of the same machine as we have different perspective on what's important. The Mac is propably well built, and works nicely for people that can afford it and are used to it. At the same time my PC with XP on it does just what I want and has so far not crashed once (some strange program has, but then it's just to shut them down and restart them. the whole PC don't go down anymore, which gets us to another OS). I also have a win98 partiotion and win98 does ... crash!!! But I'm used to it and it's not that bad and it too does what I ask it to :)

Now we all know at least something more, and that could be a good thing. Maybe there is no point in a PC/Mac debate and maybe that is off topic but we have to use computers to use Atmosphere som sometimes maybe we should say someting about them :)

[staffan...@hampa.net]

sorry for interrupting this interesting discussion but I need to answer the alien. Firewire is "a very fast external bus standard that supports data transfer rates of up to 400Mbps (in 1394a) and 800Mbps (in 1394b)."
<http://peripherals.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwebopedia.internet.com%2FTERM%2FI%2FIEEE_1394.html>

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

*jumps back a few posts*

quote : "We have chosen to support the MS platform for our 1.0 release for several valid reasons. As noted, this support covers about 90% of the market and is a reasonable undertaking for a 1.0 product. Of course we'd like to support as many platforms as possible..."

Fully understandable Chris, wouldn't expect anything else. Now, if you would be so kind as to actually answer the question as well as responding to it?! ;)

-------

*jumps forward a few posts*

A friend of mine told me that if you take the Windows Install CD's, and try playing them backwards, you get satanic messages of doom. That's nothing I said, play them forwards and it installs Windows..

Anyway - the point for all this is NOT to spark a war between Macs and Windows. We Mac users will be sitting giggling insanely to ourselves in dark corners while Windows tries dragging itself into the 21st century OS market with Longhorn a few years from now (takes a while to reverse engineer what the competition did 3 years ago) and deal with all the associated problems with that :P

The point is simply that Macs and LINUX machines are as much a part of this market as any other market, more so every day. And as such it IS important to support them - understandably maybe not from Beta versions, but as soon after v1.0 as possible. Adobe should know this better than anyone else, and so some indication of internal policy here would be a useful guide...I understand this is more likely an Adobe decision than a zombie one, but there must be something on the grapevine worth sharing? :)

[Jim...@adobeforums.com]

Thanks MacB, i learned stuff from your post.

[Ma...@adobeforums.com]

"No-one ever lost a fortune by underestimating the taste of the public". We want what's easy, we don't want to pay too much for it, and if it crashes all the time....so be it.

----------

And I think it was PT Barnum who said: "There's a sucker born every minute". :)

I don't get too emotionally attached to Operating Systems. Having used many at this point I can change my preferences pretty quickly. I don't use Windows because I don't like it, but I don't mind if other people like it. No need to argue over it, use what you like.

Its a safe prediction though that Windows will diminish in importance from here on out. Computers will (and have) become commodities, like TV sets, and as consumers (as opposed to computer geeks) start treating their computers like TV sets you will find that your statement above no longer holds true.

If your TV set regularly turned itself off in the middle of a show you would call a repair person and if the problem continued you would probably demand a refund. Computers should be no different than that for the average user. Computers have been granted an exception to ordinary standards of usefulness by the public. We can speculate about why, but I think that time is coming to an end. The Apple computers are already more like an appliance (it just works) than any PC, but the average PC for the average user in the future (I think) will have certain capabilities built in and you will just use it without needing to know what OS you are using. If you have a modern DVD player there is a pretty good chance you have Linux running in your home already. A computer should boot as fast, work as reliably and cost as little as todays DVD players. Once that is the case it simply won't be profitable enough for Microsoft (or Apple for that matter) to be involved. I'm sure they will find something else to do.

[mich...@adobeforums.com]

Donnt think, that a Mac is allways working fine:
<http://www.petitiononline.com/applelcd/>
<http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?7@@.5999d784/165>
<http://www.carrel.org/dhcp-vuln.html>
sometimes, its loking for me like:
on place 1: Buhdism
on place 2: Hinduism
on place 3: Moslems
on place "have no clue": christs
on place "far away": Mac-community
I DONNT want to offend someone!
Since I have WinXPpro, I had no crash.
Why should it be wrong or pitiable, when a student, working at nighttime for staying alive, or a woman, just devorced, with 3 kids, are buying such offers for school or studying:
<http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2437904&cat=3951&type=19&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A3951#long_descr>
Has WinXP and some progs and for an other §20, they get there also a HP-printer.
Why should I make kiddings about them, only because I have more money and can spend $5.000 for a computer with a screen?

[aNdYmAtTeR]

something like that, MacB! :)

[Ma...@adobeforums.com]

I thought that this was interesting news. (click quote below for link)

"Internal memo confirms IBM move to Linux desktop" <http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=13485> (by 2005) will probably lead to further developments... At minimum I would expect to see a lot more pre-installed Linux laptops.

Nobody at IBM will be able to use Atmo?

[Eri...@adobeforums.com]

encouraging senior execs at Big Blue to switch to a Linux desktop by the end of 2005.

end of 2005 is a while away--that is a good long 2 week stretch!

[mich...@adobeforums.com]

Maybe, they can do that. Was able in former times with the stand alone on Linux with Wine. One of the Betatesters were checking it out. Only the VP-avatars are not working :)

[aNdYmAtTeR]

I thought that this was interesting news. (click quote below for link)

"Internal memo confirms IBM move to Linux desktop" (by 2005) will probably lead to further developments... At minimum I would expect to see a lot more pre-installed Linux laptops.

!!!!!!! 8o !!!!!!!

...

Hey! Good vibrations as the earth is shaking! :)

Read also the links at the botom of the page!

Nobody at IBM will be able to use Atmo?

Oh well, maybe that has changed by then?

[Frances...@adobeforums.com]

Ok, I read the whole messaging story of this topic...
I think that we're going a little off-topic, however:

MacB, I think I am in the ocean long enough to see that microsoft base PCs are the ruling market. FULL STOP.
If they win there's a way. It could be only a marketing strategy but it's a winning one and it works for lots of people.

As for the migration of mac users to PC platform due to the graphic chips innovations:
actually on the PC the most of the time video cards have always existed (I had a 486 DX33 mhz with a trident videocard of 512kb of memory!). The fashion of having chips integrated on the M/B it's quite recent thing. Moreover Nvidia (not Nvidea!) wasn't the first to move the chips onto accelerator videocards. Before it there are at least 4 manufacturers, including S3, Ati (which brought its graphic knowledge FIRST on PC THEN on MAcs) and 3DFX (the Voodoos Chipset and Voodoo Rush for professionals), and all of this videocard increased drammatically PC performance and WERE and ARE absolutely noticed by the public. Think that with an old 200mhz processor (not even intel but AMD) and a 3d accelerator like Voodoo 2, you could run P266 mhz applicatioons at 20 FPS.

And, since you're in ocean since so long, I suppose you know that the major private Apple's shareolder is.... guess who!? MICROSOFT! Yes ladies and gentlemen, with the 40% of Apple's shares.
So please stop saying that Microsoft makes orrible stuff and so on. Lots of your software has been realized in co.op with Redmond and you guys use Office as we do.

[aNdYmAtTeR]

What would you prefer, ebola or anthrax?

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

I dont use Office. Word was designed by Microsoft for the Mac before it was designed for the PC - PC's didn't have GUI's at the time.

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

Anthrax, every time. I have studied the way ebola kills. :P

[Eri...@adobeforums.com]

(and the nation that wins the number of off-topic replies goes to..Sweden! )

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

It's my topic, MINE I tell you, and I'll take it where I want to!! :P

[aNdYmAtTeR]

hahaha

it's preach's topic, no doubt!

...and it's right on the money as far as anthrax, ebola and topicness is concerned, since it's just a figure of speach. To tell you the truth I'm not very impressed by any of the companies or platforms that I've tried so far. Give the chance to either Microsoft or Apple to dominate the computer industry and you will see some true ugliness. From Microsoft it comes from within, and from the Mac world it coms from their userbase that ... well, let's just say that they are a little loud! Just because one thing is wrong aonther thing won't have to be right. Everything can be dead wrong hahaha!

A Lump Of Coal In An Otherwise Well Filled Stocking...

How do we get back?

[Jim...@adobeforums.com]

Aha! Now i know why their is less chatting going on inworld.

Everyone is using the forum like it was chat!

[Pre...@adobeforums.com]

Actually, I am just anticipating superted's "Longest Thread" awards :)

But seriously - I would still like some straight answers to the very first post :|

[aNdYmAtTeR]

yeah, Sorry ... just bored beyond my senses! Uou don't wanna know more. I'll try to be a better human being!

Just forget this post and begin by reading at the top of this topic. Preach wamts some answers about some vital parts in the functionality of Atmosphere so now when the zombies are back and the hollidays are over, maybe he can get some answers???

[karen jacobs]

Re some of the discussion above, I continue to have doubts about the policy of having Atmosphere dependent on microsoft's IE. It seems enough to be dependent as a plugin to the Viewpoint plugin without adding browser dependency as well. If the objective is to be accessible to as many viewers of content as possible, it is very puzzling to eliminate the 30 million customers of AOL -- currently the largest provider of internet service in the United States that supports Viewpoint media.

Two articles re the future of the internet:

Is Big Media Bad? <http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3606172/>

"The consolidation wars are starting to spread to the Internet as the media oligarchs try to set themselves up as online toll collectors, warns Barry Diller
Newsweek International Issues 2004"
. . . . . "The Internet--that wonderful self-publishing medium--hasn’t in any way become consolidated yet. But cable, DSL [digital subscriber lines provided by telecom companies] and direct-broadcast satellite in the end will emerge as the dominant broadband-distribution pipeline. Then the same thing is going to happen in the Internet that has happened essentially to our other mass-communications pipelines."

A Net of Control <http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3606168/>

"Picture, if you will, an information infrastructure that encourages censorship, surveillance and suppression of the creative impulse. Where anonymity is outlawed and every penny spent is accounted for."
. . . . . "huge effort to transform the Net from an arena where anyone can anonymously participate to a sign-in affair where tamperproof 'digital certificates' identify who you are." . . . . .
"The best-known implementation of this scheme is the work in progress at Microsoft known as Next Generation Secure Computing Base (formerly called Palladium). It will be part of Longhorn, the next big Windows version, out in 2006. Intel and AMD are onboard . . . . " . . . . . . "secure system to make sure that no one can access or, potentially, even post anything without permission."

And, Saturday, 10 January 2004 <http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040110/D8006CL00.html>

"WASHINGTON (AP) - Adobe Systems (ADBE) Inc. acknowledged Friday it quietly added technology to the world's best-known graphics software at the request of government regulators and international bankers to prevent consumers from making copies of the world's major currencies."

. . . . . . "Adobe said the technology slows its software's performance 'just a fraction of a second' and urged customers to report unexpected glitches. It said there may be room for improvement."

{end of article} " 'If I were the paranoid-conspiracy type, I would speculate that since it's not Adobe's software, what else is it doing?' Spafford said."

--kj^..^

[Lauren...@adobeforums.com]

Me if i was the Project Manager i would think VERY HARD about having a Penguin Pond hidden on some Adobe Campus, since it might happen that M$ does some sort of "3d environment" thing and tells Palladium to break
the now "untrusted" non-Microsoft product (yeah the dark side of Palladium M$ can remote destruct anything on your computer).
besides an AtmoLive! cd/dvd would rock

[mich...@adobeforums.com]

Donno, if that is off topic, but Microsoft is also not trusting their own products here in Germany. Some weeks ago, they started msn.de with dsl offers. How some people found out, all their servers are apaches on linux. Also the company, doing that, were configurating it badly, so that the people were doing kiddings with their page like showing on top of the msn-dsl page: "Now we support 8 bit and 16 bit"
Anyway, will take a time, until Paladium is coming and you must not buy it.

[Eri...@adobeforums.com]

is Paladium a Microsoft OS? Laurence saying M$ might be funny but it is a.slanderous and b.confusing. Please keep to rational arguments and not namecalling/baiting/ad hominem even if deserved (and no I don't work for Microsoft even if they part-own Apple).

[A Davey]

Ultra-right-wing-conservative observation very early in the morning before my brain is properly awake.........coming originally from a very small country town, and seeing the rampant crime in cities, I can't help feeling that anonymity not only allows people to get away with stuff, it actually encourages it. If you're an invisible person among millions, with no identity, why not do whatever you want, with no responsibility, and no repercussions? One of the huge prices that we pay for anonymity on the net is the access that paedophiles have to children. I know three pople in my immediate circle who found that husbands/boyfriends had started downloading child porn. Generations of young people are sprayed daily with links to extreme perversion, when their sexual preferences, and what they identify as 'sexually exciting', are being set.

Not normally conservative, but I'd be willing to give up some anonymity in order to make the net safer for children and vulnerable women and boys.

End of rant......

[aNdYmAtTeR]

I got a little inspered to find an alternative to M$ last night, so I googled around and found this <http://seamusphan.com/blog/C830470947/E349977459>. I have no idea if it's any good but you might wanna know :)

"Lycoris Desktop/LX
Running Windows Software without Emulation

Lycoris Desktop/LX
Lycoris Desktop/LX (www.lycoris.com) is yet another Windows work-alike operating system based on the open source Linux, but uses the KDE Desktop window manager.

It is slightly more affordable than LindowsOS, being US$40 per boxed set, and already includes a simplified office suite.

Running Windows Software without Emulation
Both Lycoris and LindowsOS can work with WINE (www.winehq.com), which is a Windows API sitting on top of X and Unix.

WINE is different from running operating systems on top of virtual hardware, such as how VirtualPC (now owned by Microsoft) works. WINE does not require Microsoft Windows at all, and software meant for Windows - at least the usual ones such as Microsoft Office - can work on it. If your Windows application makes plenty of illegal DLL calls, then maybe WINE doesn't work for you.

Since WINE is not an emulator, software works rather efficiently, with none of the slowdowns experienced when using emulated hardware. Software does not need recompilation, unlike Winelib, and can work with certain certified or compliant Windows software right out of the box."

[alien...@adobeforums.com]

Do we smell a forthcoming battlejuice or its just some naphthaline?