If we supposed that any systems with more than 400 concurrent users and more than 80 pages + 80(TF) is an Enterprise system then: I want to get your suggestions for the installation, configuration and deployment of this enterprise system in WLS. Have do you deployed such an Enterprise scale system with ADF(ADF Faces + ADF BC)? How Many concurrent user do you have? How many cluster you have and how much RAM you specified for each cluster? What is you infrastructure (JVM + WLS version + ADF version + OS version + RAM )?
Last, why I am asking such questions? because I have deployed several enterprise systems with ADF and I see lack of performance in run-time ( I have this problem in SOA/BPM Suite11g also) I am trying to get help from a brainstorming here.
What is the reality? is ADF suitable for such an enterprise level or it is very heavy-weight for Enterprise systems?
we have done several migration from Form Builder to ADF the good-> people are satisfied with functionality, design of page and capability in page component the bad-> in the past they only has database to configure, now they have very huge RAM consumption from WLS.
one of company that I knew has 15 clusters (each cluster has around 4 GIG RAM)! to support 10000 concurrent users, is this normal?is it because ADF needs lots of resources compare to other frameworks? or it is because they do not know how to configure the system? but I am sure that they know the basic ADF performance hints (APP Pool, Connection Pool,debug=false,....). I hope at the end of this brainstorming I found my answer to what is the best configuration for Cluster+WLS+ ADF..
To my experience, for each 150 user we need 3 gig for an Enterprise system in ADF Faces, if it is true, suppose how much RAM needed if the Facebook/Gmail/Oracle Website... was supposed to be written with ADF ;) ...
If you already code applications using only 3Gb for 150 concurrent users, which is 20Mb per user, then you're already doing pretty good and I don't think I can come up with many potential optimizations. You could use full client state saving (not token), but there are some potential security risks associated with that and it's going to increase the network load. Dropping the ADF Databinding layer and using POJOs as return values from your application module methods can also yield some interesting RAM gains. Other than that there isn't much really as JSF is a bit memory hungry by design because of the said state saving.
I don't think Facebook could have been coded in ADF, it just not the right framework model for that kind of application, it's really more intranet oriented imho. I did work on some general public applications that ended up pretty well, we still had to twist the framework around every corners to resolve that kind of issues.
Regards,
~ Simon
On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:30 AM, amir hosein khanof <amir.kha...@gmail.com>wrote:
> If we supposed that any systems with more than 400 concurrent users and > more than 80 pages + 80(TF) is an Enterprise system then: > I want to get your suggestions for the installation, configuration and > deployment of this enterprise system in WLS. > Have do you deployed such an Enterprise scale system with ADF(ADF Faces + > ADF BC)? > How Many concurrent user do you have? > How many cluster you have and how much RAM you specified for each cluster? > What is you infrastructure (JVM + WLS version + ADF version + OS version + > RAM )?
> Last, why I am asking such questions? because I have deployed several > enterprise systems with ADF and I see lack of performance in run-time ( I > have this problem in SOA/BPM Suite11g also) I am trying to get help from a > brainstorming here.
> What is the reality? is ADF suitable for such an enterprise level or it is > very heavy-weight for Enterprise systems?
> we have done several migration from Form Builder to ADF the good-> people > are satisfied with functionality, design of page and capability in page > component the bad-> in the past they only has database to configure, now > they have very huge RAM consumption from WLS.
> one of company that I knew has 15 clusters (each cluster has around 4 GIG > RAM)! to support 10000 concurrent users, is this normal?is it because ADF > needs lots of resources compare to other frameworks? or it is because they > do not know how to configure the system? but I am sure that they know the > basic ADF performance hints (APP Pool, Connection Pool,debug=false,....). > I hope at the end of this brainstorming I found my answer to what is the > best configuration for Cluster+WLS+ ADF..
> To my experience, for each 150 user we need 3 gig for an Enterprise system > in ADF Faces, if it is true, suppose how much RAM needed if the > Facebook/Gmail/Oracle Website... was supposed to be written with ADF ;) ...
> Thanks > Amir
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Thanks for your sympathy, I completely came up with your idea regarding ADF but my problem is that when we say ADF is for Enterprise level applications it is antithesis, during the past 3 years of improving of ADF from Oracle, what I see is that in every version we see new feature and lack of improvement in performance issue. blieve me that even the AM Pooling in high load is not as good as must be. in OOW I heard that Oracle is going to use ADF for all the future applications that is going to be develope in Oracle, I wonder how it could be with this performance!!!
Even the built-in application that Oracle himself has wrote that is not good in performance i.e take a look over Oracle Workspace or Oracle Worklist!!! when you try to login in, you feel that you are loading 1,000,000 records from db!!!
what is the future? in case of Oracle Technologies which technology we must really use for Enterprise Level?
When Oracle talks about Cloud how it could be possible with lack of performance?
I really advocate ADF but the future is vague for me...
Thanks,
On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Simon Lessard <simon.lessar...@gmail.com>wrote:
> If you already code applications using only 3Gb for 150 concurrent users, > which is 20Mb per user, then you're already doing pretty good and I don't > think I can come up with many potential optimizations. You could use full > client state saving (not token), but there are some potential security > risks associated with that and it's going to increase the network load. > Dropping the ADF Databinding layer and using POJOs as return values from > your application module methods can also yield some interesting RAM gains. > Other than that there isn't much really as JSF is a bit memory hungry by > design because of the said state saving.
> I don't think Facebook could have been coded in ADF, it just not the right > framework model for that kind of application, it's really more intranet > oriented imho. I did work on some general public applications that ended up > pretty well, we still had to twist the framework around every corners to > resolve that kind of issues.
> Regards,
> ~ Simon
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:30 AM, amir hosein khanof < > amir.kha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> If we supposed that any systems with more than 400 concurrent users and >> more than 80 pages + 80(TF) is an Enterprise system then: >> I want to get your suggestions for the installation, configuration and >> deployment of this enterprise system in WLS. >> Have do you deployed such an Enterprise scale system with ADF(ADF Faces + >> ADF BC)? >> How Many concurrent user do you have? >> How many cluster you have and how much RAM you specified for each cluster? >> What is you infrastructure (JVM + WLS version + ADF version + OS version >> + RAM )?
>> Last, why I am asking such questions? because I have deployed several >> enterprise systems with ADF and I see lack of performance in run-time ( I >> have this problem in SOA/BPM Suite11g also) I am trying to get help from a >> brainstorming here.
>> What is the reality? is ADF suitable for such an enterprise level or it >> is very heavy-weight for Enterprise systems?
>> we have done several migration from Form Builder to ADF the good-> people >> are satisfied with functionality, design of page and capability in page >> component the bad-> in the past they only has database to configure, now >> they have very huge RAM consumption from WLS.
>> one of company that I knew has 15 clusters (each cluster has around 4 GIG >> RAM)! to support 10000 concurrent users, is this normal?is it because ADF >> needs lots of resources compare to other frameworks? or it is because they >> do not know how to configure the system? but I am sure that they know the >> basic ADF performance hints (APP Pool, Connection Pool,debug=false,....). >> I hope at the end of this brainstorming I found my answer to what is the >> best configuration for Cluster+WLS+ ADF..
>> To my experience, for each 150 user we need 3 gig for an Enterprise >> system in ADF Faces, if it is true, suppose how much RAM needed if the >> Facebook/Gmail/Oracle Website... was supposed to be written with ADF ;) ...
>> Thanks >> Amir
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF >> Enterprise Methodology Group ( >> http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To unsubscribe send >> email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Well, to be honest. If you want that many concurrent users, don't go for ADF ADF is centered on easy of development and reducing the required knowledge to build enterprise applications. Performance will never be as good as other JEE framework.
ADF can execute several more queries than required for a lot of operations. I have had several SR request with Oracle concerning duplicate or even triple query firing of queries. ADF has sacrificed a lot in order to fully support drag and drop and generic components.
Just create a simple application and start using it. See the memory usage and CPU goes insane for a single user. In my opinion Weblogic is the best JEE application server, but it is a heavy weight server supporting a lot of features. Features of which ADF uses almost nothing, features intended for JEE frameworks.
The concurrent users you descibe I have had to deal with in only 1 project. ADF was never an option there, we quickly moved to EJB 3.0 with a thin Java layer and WFD (Microsoft) gui in order to support the load. JEE can scale horizontal and vertical. ADF will not, simple due to the application module being so heavy and the concept of a statefull session facade.
If you check other JEE frameworks you see they quickly moved away from state full session facades, EJB state full beans etc. ADF has not. This type of programming paradigm just doesn't allow for scalability under high concurrent. users. Yet ADF keeps its application module, which is even heavier then any other state full session facade out there.
ADF works, but the use in my opinion is limited. ADF works in back end data entry application working mainly directly on database tables. It reduces the complexity of JEE application but imposes certain drawbacks, one of them being performance and scalability. And yes, I use ADF, but for exactly the type of application I mentioned above, Back end application working 85% directly on tables, 10% with PL/SQL procedures and 5% with rest/soap services.
-Anton
On Dec 18, 3:02 pm, amir hosein khanof <amir.kha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for your sympathy, I completely came up with your idea regarding ADF > but my problem is that when we say ADF is for Enterprise level > applications it is antithesis, during the past 3 years of improving of ADF > from Oracle, what I see is that in every version we see new feature and > lack of improvement in performance issue. blieve me that even the AM > Pooling in high load is not as good as must be. > in OOW I heard that Oracle is going to use ADF for all the > future applications that is going to be develope in Oracle, I wonder how it > could be with this performance!!!
> Even the built-in application that Oracle himself has wrote that is not > good in performance i.e take a look over Oracle Workspace or Oracle > Worklist!!! when you try to login in, you feel that you are loading > 1,000,000 records from db!!!
> what is the future? in case of Oracle Technologies which technology we must > really use for Enterprise Level?
> When Oracle talks about Cloud how it could be possible with lack of > performance?
> I really advocate ADF but the future is vague for me...
> Thanks,
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Simon Lessard <simon.lessar...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > Hi Amir,
> > If you already code applications using only 3Gb for 150 concurrent users, > > which is 20Mb per user, then you're already doing pretty good and I don't > > think I can come up with many potential optimizations. You could use full > > client state saving (not token), but there are some potential security > > risks associated with that and it's going to increase the network load. > > Dropping the ADF Databinding layer and using POJOs as return values from > > your application module methods can also yield some interesting RAM gains. > > Other than that there isn't much really as JSF is a bit memory hungry by > > design because of the said state saving.
> > I don't think Facebook could have been coded in ADF, it just not the right > > framework model for that kind of application, it's really more intranet > > oriented imho. I did work on some general public applications that ended up > > pretty well, we still had to twist the framework around every corners to > > resolve that kind of issues.
> > Regards,
> > ~ Simon
> > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:30 AM, amir hosein khanof < > > amir.kha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> If we supposed that any systems with more than 400 concurrent users and > >> more than 80 pages + 80(TF) is an Enterprise system then: > >> I want to get your suggestions for the installation, configuration and > >> deployment of this enterprise system in WLS. > >> Have do you deployed such an Enterprise scale system with ADF(ADF Faces + > >> ADF BC)? > >> How Many concurrent user do you have? > >> How many cluster you have and how much RAM you specified for each cluster? > >> What is you infrastructure (JVM + WLS version + ADF version + OS version > >> + RAM )?
> >> Last, why I am asking such questions? because I have deployed several > >> enterprise systems with ADF and I see lack of performance in run-time ( I > >> have this problem in SOA/BPM Suite11g also) I am trying to get help from a > >> brainstorming here.
> >> What is the reality? is ADF suitable for such an enterprise level or it > >> is very heavy-weight for Enterprise systems?
> >> we have done several migration from Form Builder to ADF the good-> people > >> are satisfied with functionality, design of page and capability in page > >> component the bad-> in the past they only has database to configure, now > >> they have very huge RAM consumption from WLS.
> >> one of company that I knew has 15 clusters (each cluster has around 4 GIG > >> RAM)! to support 10000 concurrent users, is this normal?is it because ADF > >> needs lots of resources compare to other frameworks? or it is because they > >> do not know how to configure the system? but I am sure that they know the > >> basic ADF performance hints (APP Pool, Connection Pool,debug=false,....). > >> I hope at the end of this brainstorming I found my answer to what is the > >> best configuration for Cluster+WLS+ ADF..
> >> To my experience, for each 150 user we need 3 gig for an Enterprise > >> system in ADF Faces, if it is true, suppose how much RAM needed if the > >> Facebook/Gmail/Oracle Website... was supposed to be written with ADF ;) ...
> >> Thanks > >> Amir
> >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF > >> Enterprise Methodology Group ( > >>http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To unsubscribe send > >> email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
What I understand with ADF is, an application that uses all ADF layers, is not to be recommended for more than 500 concurrent users. Reason: Business will always expect itself to grow in future and ADF is inherently a heavy n/w framework.
But it will be interesting to see a ADF BC and Struts integrated application, if it can support 500+ concurrent users. Gut feeling is yes, b'coz ADF faces (UI part) is what makes it real heavy.
On 19 December 2011 01:56, Anton Gerdessen <a.gerdes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, to be honest. > If you want that many concurrent users, don't go for ADF > ADF is centered on easy of development and reducing the required > knowledge to build enterprise applications. > Performance will never be as good as other JEE framework.
> ADF can execute several more queries than required for a lot of > operations. > I have had several SR request with Oracle concerning duplicate or even > triple query firing of queries. > ADF has sacrificed a lot in order to fully support drag and drop and > generic components.
> Just create a simple application and start using it. See the memory > usage and CPU goes insane for a single user. > In my opinion Weblogic is the best JEE application server, but it is a > heavy weight server supporting a lot of features. > Features of which ADF uses almost nothing, features intended for JEE > frameworks.
> The concurrent users you descibe I have had to deal with in only 1 > project. > ADF was never an option there, we quickly moved to EJB 3.0 with a thin > Java layer and WFD (Microsoft) gui in order to support the load. > JEE can scale horizontal and vertical. ADF will not, simple due to the > application module being so heavy and the concept of a statefull > session facade.
> If you check other JEE frameworks you see they quickly moved away from > state full session facades, EJB state full beans etc. ADF has not. > This type of programming paradigm just doesn't allow for scalability > under high concurrent. > users. Yet ADF keeps its application module, which is even heavier > then any other state full session facade out there.
> ADF works, but the use in my opinion is limited. > ADF works in back end data entry application working mainly directly > on database tables. > It reduces the complexity of JEE application but imposes certain > drawbacks, one of them being performance and scalability. > And yes, I use ADF, but for exactly the type of application I > mentioned above, Back end application working 85% directly on tables, > 10% with PL/SQL procedures and 5% with rest/soap services.
> -Anton
> On Dec 18, 3:02 pm, amir hosein khanof <amir.kha...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Sempon,
> > Thanks for your sympathy, I completely came up with your idea regarding > ADF > > but my problem is that when we say ADF is for Enterprise level > > applications it is antithesis, during the past 3 years of improving of > ADF > > from Oracle, what I see is that in every version we see new feature and > > lack of improvement in performance issue. blieve me that even the AM > > Pooling in high load is not as good as must be. > > in OOW I heard that Oracle is going to use ADF for all the > > future applications that is going to be develope in Oracle, I wonder how > it > > could be with this performance!!!
> > Even the built-in application that Oracle himself has wrote that is not > > good in performance i.e take a look over Oracle Workspace or Oracle > > Worklist!!! when you try to login in, you feel that you are loading > > 1,000,000 records from db!!!
> > what is the future? in case of Oracle Technologies which technology we > must > > really use for Enterprise Level?
> > When Oracle talks about Cloud how it could be possible with lack of > > performance?
> > I really advocate ADF but the future is vague for me...
> > Thanks,
> > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Simon Lessard < > simon.lessar...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > Hi Amir,
> > > If you already code applications using only 3Gb for 150 concurrent > users, > > > which is 20Mb per user, then you're already doing pretty good and I > don't > > > think I can come up with many potential optimizations. You could use > full > > > client state saving (not token), but there are some potential security > > > risks associated with that and it's going to increase the network load. > > > Dropping the ADF Databinding layer and using POJOs as return values > from > > > your application module methods can also yield some interesting RAM > gains. > > > Other than that there isn't much really as JSF is a bit memory hungry > by > > > design because of the said state saving.
> > > I don't think Facebook could have been coded in ADF, it just not the > right > > > framework model for that kind of application, it's really more intranet > > > oriented imho. I did work on some general public applications that > ended up > > > pretty well, we still had to twist the framework around every corners > to > > > resolve that kind of issues.
> > > Regards,
> > > ~ Simon
> > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:30 AM, amir hosein khanof < > > > amir.kha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Hi,
> > >> If we supposed that any systems with more than 400 concurrent users > and > > >> more than 80 pages + 80(TF) is an Enterprise system then: > > >> I want to get your suggestions for the installation, configuration and > > >> deployment of this enterprise system in WLS. > > >> Have do you deployed such an Enterprise scale system with ADF(ADF > Faces + > > >> ADF BC)? > > >> How Many concurrent user do you have? > > >> How many cluster you have and how much RAM you specified for each > cluster? > > >> What is you infrastructure (JVM + WLS version + ADF version + OS > version > > >> + RAM )?
> > >> Last, why I am asking such questions? because I have deployed several > > >> enterprise systems with ADF and I see lack of performance in run-time > ( I > > >> have this problem in SOA/BPM Suite11g also) I am trying to get help > from a > > >> brainstorming here.
> > >> What is the reality? is ADF suitable for such an enterprise level or > it > > >> is very heavy-weight for Enterprise systems?
> > >> we have done several migration from Form Builder to ADF the good-> > people > > >> are satisfied with functionality, design of page and capability in > page > > >> component the bad-> in the past they only has database to configure, > now > > >> they have very huge RAM consumption from WLS.
> > >> one of company that I knew has 15 clusters (each cluster has around 4 > GIG > > >> RAM)! to support 10000 concurrent users, is this normal?is it because > ADF > > >> needs lots of resources compare to other frameworks? or it is because > they > > >> do not know how to configure the system? but I am sure that they know > the > > >> basic ADF performance hints (APP Pool, Connection > Pool,debug=false,....). > > >> I hope at the end of this brainstorming I found my answer to what is > the > > >> best configuration for Cluster+WLS+ ADF..
> > >> To my experience, for each 150 user we need 3 gig for an Enterprise > > >> system in ADF Faces, if it is true, suppose how much RAM needed if the > > >> Facebook/Gmail/Oracle Website... was supposed to be written with ADF > ;) ...
> > >> Thanks > > >> Amir
> > >> -- > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF > > >> Enterprise Methodology Group ( > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To unsubscribe send > > >> email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF > Enterprise > > > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > > > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Hi Amir, One thing I'm sure with, is that ADF can be designed for Enterprise and Big Applications, you only need to do one thing to rapidly enhance performance, that one thing is *Don't use Data Binding Layer aka Drag and Drop *as you get rid of it, you end up not having a big Page Definition file, sometime no page definition at all, you decreasing the loading of reading and parsing XMLs back and forth with the framework, you need to return back to the backing beans and manage beans, this will boost your performance by 200% That was testes, and trust me its working well, but you will lose most of the cool stuff JDeveloper does for you, and ofcourse increase the time so much, I'd rather also not use so much TF for that matter
> Well, to be honest. > If you want that many concurrent users, don't go for ADF > ADF is centered on easy of development and reducing the required > knowledge to build enterprise applications. > Performance will never be as good as other JEE framework.
> ADF can execute several more queries than required for a lot of > operations. > I have had several SR request with Oracle concerning duplicate or even > triple query firing of queries. > ADF has sacrificed a lot in order to fully support drag and drop and > generic components.
> Just create a simple application and start using it. See the memory > usage and CPU goes insane for a single user. > In my opinion Weblogic is the best JEE application server, but it is a > heavy weight server supporting a lot of features. > Features of which ADF uses almost nothing, features intended for JEE > frameworks.
> The concurrent users you descibe I have had to deal with in only 1 > project. > ADF was never an option there, we quickly moved to EJB 3.0 with a thin > Java layer and WFD (Microsoft) gui in order to support the load. > JEE can scale horizontal and vertical. ADF will not, simple due to the > application module being so heavy and the concept of a statefull > session facade.
> If you check other JEE frameworks you see they quickly moved away from > state full session facades, EJB state full beans etc. ADF has not. > This type of programming paradigm just doesn't allow for scalability > under high concurrent. > users. Yet ADF keeps its application module, which is even heavier > then any other state full session facade out there.
> ADF works, but the use in my opinion is limited. > ADF works in back end data entry application working mainly directly > on database tables. > It reduces the complexity of JEE application but imposes certain > drawbacks, one of them being performance and scalability. > And yes, I use ADF, but for exactly the type of application I > mentioned above, Back end application working 85% directly on tables, > 10% with PL/SQL procedures and 5% with rest/soap services.
> -Anton
> On Dec 18, 3:02 pm, amir hosein khanof <amir.kha...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Sempon,
> > Thanks for your sympathy, I completely came up with your idea regarding > ADF > > but my problem is that when we say ADF is for Enterprise level > > applications it is antithesis, during the past 3 years of improving of > ADF > > from Oracle, what I see is that in every version we see new feature and > > lack of improvement in performance issue. blieve me that even the AM > > Pooling in high load is not as good as must be. > > in OOW I heard that Oracle is going to use ADF for all the > > future applications that is going to be develope in Oracle, I wonder how > it > > could be with this performance!!!
> > Even the built-in application that Oracle himself has wrote that is not > > good in performance i.e take a look over Oracle Workspace or Oracle > > Worklist!!! when you try to login in, you feel that you are loading > > 1,000,000 records from db!!!
> > what is the future? in case of Oracle Technologies which technology we > must > > really use for Enterprise Level?
> > When Oracle talks about Cloud how it could be possible with lack of > > performance?
> > I really advocate ADF but the future is vague for me...
> > Thanks,
> > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Simon Lessard < > simon.lessar...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > Hi Amir,
> > > If you already code applications using only 3Gb for 150 concurrent > users, > > > which is 20Mb per user, then you're already doing pretty good and I > don't > > > think I can come up with many potential optimizations. You could use > full > > > client state saving (not token), but there are some potential security > > > risks associated with that and it's going to increase the network load. > > > Dropping the ADF Databinding layer and using POJOs as return values > from > > > your application module methods can also yield some interesting RAM > gains. > > > Other than that there isn't much really as JSF is a bit memory hungry > by > > > design because of the said state saving.
> > > I don't think Facebook could have been coded in ADF, it just not the > right > > > framework model for that kind of application, it's really more intranet > > > oriented imho. I did work on some general public applications that > ended up > > > pretty well, we still had to twist the framework around every corners > to > > > resolve that kind of issues.
> > > Regards,
> > > ~ Simon
> > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:30 AM, amir hosein khanof < > > > amir.kha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Hi,
> > >> If we supposed that any systems with more than 400 concurrent users > and > > >> more than 80 pages + 80(TF) is an Enterprise system then: > > >> I want to get your suggestions for the installation, configuration and > > >> deployment of this enterprise system in WLS. > > >> Have do you deployed such an Enterprise scale system with ADF(ADF > Faces + > > >> ADF BC)? > > >> How Many concurrent user do you have? > > >> How many cluster you have and how much RAM you specified for each > cluster? > > >> What is you infrastructure (JVM + WLS version + ADF version + OS > version > > >> + RAM )?
> > >> Last, why I am asking such questions? because I have deployed several > > >> enterprise systems with ADF and I see lack of performance in run-time > ( I > > >> have this problem in SOA/BPM Suite11g also) I am trying to get help > from a > > >> brainstorming here.
> > >> What is the reality? is ADF suitable for such an enterprise level or > it > > >> is very heavy-weight for Enterprise systems?
> > >> we have done several migration from Form Builder to ADF the good-> > people > > >> are satisfied with functionality, design of page and capability in > page > > >> component the bad-> in the past they only has database to configure, > now > > >> they have very huge RAM consumption from WLS.
> > >> one of company that I knew has 15 clusters (each cluster has around 4 > GIG > > >> RAM)! to support 10000 concurrent users, is this normal?is it because > ADF > > >> needs lots of resources compare to other frameworks? or it is because > they > > >> do not know how to configure the system? but I am sure that they know > the > > >> basic ADF performance hints (APP Pool, Connection > Pool,debug=false,....). > > >> I hope at the end of this brainstorming I found my answer to what is > the > > >> best configuration for Cluster+WLS+ ADF..
> > >> To my experience, for each 150 user we need 3 gig for an Enterprise > > >> system in ADF Faces, if it is true, suppose how much RAM needed if the > > >> Facebook/Gmail/Oracle Website... was supposed to be written with ADF > ;) ...
> > >> Thanks > > >> Amir
> > >> -- > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF > > >> Enterprise Methodology Group ( > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To unsubscribe send > > >> email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF > Enterprise > > > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > > > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
I believe the choice of a framework as a long term strategic tool should not be avoided because of a performance issue related to an hardware resource constraint as long as it can be sorted out at an affordable cost. If I go for a better performing Framework choice (non 100% ADF) how my constraints (translating to less productivity mainly) are going to persist or even increase compared to my current hardware constraint which has many chances to vanish in the future ?
Taking into account that ADF is not meant for Google scale apps but that it is for 10,000 users Enterprises, is it possible or not today to sort out the performance issue with more CPUs & RAM ?
If Amir's figures are good, 15 machines of 3G to support 10,000 users is not bad in term of machine cost per user. Amr says that a 200% perf boost can be achieved by "avoiding" data binding layer, TFs etc.... The Maths can be : Non 100% ADF with approx 7 machines or 15 machines with 100% ADF for 10,000 users. 1 machine at 3000$ => 24,000$ for 8 => 2.40$/user one-off cost to pay for ADF productivity is a good deal. Am I wrong ? Or is the performance problem more complex than that ?
All the concerns raised seem valid. However, before getting to solutions, let's break down the 'performance' issues by addressing the following questions:
1) Does ADF as a framework require relatively more RAM and hardware resources than other frameworks to function at an acceptable level?
OR
2) Do you observe other serious issues such as memory leaks that are impossible to resolve after adequate tuning and sizing?
I read some unofficial blog post that suggests the whole Fusion applications suite could need 120 GB of memory.
As Jean's math suggests, if, after that is just the price one pays to use all the productivity and usability features. Of course, we do recognise that different frameworks/patterns/technology platform suit different problems - 'one size doesn't fit all' Historically, hardware (RAM, processing power, storage) has only become cheaper and better so it should hardly constrain one from using the framework 'where appropriate' .
Regards, JV
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Jean-Marc Desvaux <jm.desv...@gcc.mu>wrote:
> I believe the choice of a framework as a long term strategic tool should > not be avoided because of a performance issue related to an hardware > resource constraint as long as it can be sorted out at an affordable cost. > If I go for a better performing Framework choice (non 100% ADF) how my > constraints (translating to less productivity mainly) are going to persist > or even increase compared to my current hardware constraint which has many > chances to vanish in the future ?
> Taking into account that ADF is not meant for Google scale apps but that > it is for 10,000 users Enterprises, is it possible or not today to sort out > the performance issue with more CPUs & RAM ?
> If Amir's figures are good, 15 machines of 3G to support 10,000 users is > not bad in term of machine cost per user. > Amr says that a 200% perf boost can be achieved by "avoiding" data binding > layer, TFs etc.... > The Maths can be : Non 100% ADF with approx 7 machines or 15 machines with > 100% ADF for 10,000 users. 1 machine at 3000$ => 24,000$ for 8 => > 2.40$/user one-off cost to pay for ADF productivity is a good deal. > Am I wrong ? Or is the performance problem more complex than that ?
> Jean-Marc
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Hi Jean, What about the web logic cost which is most likely to be used with ADF? As far as I know, Oracle made ADF to sell web logic. And productivity? What about some competing frameworks? Or is it productivity with relatively cheap resources? I can't understand this equation actually. Oracle made a tool/ framework which will end up selling something expensive [web logic] to end customer - but that tool is targeted for quick development with less scalability option - so, who are those end customers who don't need a scalable app but ready to pay a huge amount for infrastructure cost [app server, hardware, etc.] ? And why these end customers won't have better options to choose from? And who are those ISVs who do not want or can't invest a good amount for skilled developers [who will be apt at using something productive and scalable] to make something which will be bought by some rich end clients? I don't see how this equation is going to work, in the long run..! Making everything declarative is may be a way to attract some forms developers, but I don't see why it is not possible to make this declarations into something compiled in first build..[reducing the need of xml parsing] just wondering!
Thanks Mashrur
On Dec 19, 6:39 pm, Jean-Marc Desvaux <jm.desv...@gcc.mu> wrote:
> I believe the choice of a framework as a long term strategic tool should > not be avoided because of a performance issue related to an hardware > resource constraint as long as it can be sorted out at an affordable cost. > If I go for a better performing Framework choice (non 100% ADF) how my > constraints (translating to less productivity mainly) are going to persist > or even increase compared to my current hardware constraint which has many > chances to vanish in the future ?
> Taking into account that ADF is not meant for Google scale apps but that it > is for 10,000 users Enterprises, is it possible or not today to sort out > the performance issue with more CPUs & RAM ?
> If Amir's figures are good, 15 machines of 3G to support 10,000 users is > not bad in term of machine cost per user. > Amr says that a 200% perf boost can be achieved by "avoiding" data binding > layer, TFs etc.... > The Maths can be : Non 100% ADF with approx 7 machines or 15 machines with > 100% ADF for 10,000 users. 1 machine at 3000$ => 24,000$ for 8 => > 2.40$/user one-off cost to pay for ADF productivity is a good deal. > Am I wrong ? Or is the performance problem more complex than that ?
Make sure that your application server is patched to the latest, including patches to the ADF libraries. We don't have much experience with JDev 11g and Weblogic, but the memory use on a 10g application on OC4J was significantly reduced when we installed a fairly minor patch to the ADF libraries.
Read up on the performance tuning parameters for your Application Modules - we got a bit of a bump by fine tuning these.
Simon, while the long-time users of Oracle tools (like Forms) in my shop (including me) are using ADF BC, we have two developers who knew Hibernate, so they did the Model for their projects in JPA. Their applications simply don't perform as well as mine. For that reason, and so that any of our developers can maintain them, the next versions of these will be switched to ADF BC.
From: adf-methodology@googlegroups.com [mailto:adf-methodology@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Simon Lessard Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:50 AM To: adf-methodology@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [ADF EMG] ADF RAM/Performance Problem for enterprise system
Hi Amir,
If you already code applications using only 3Gb for 150 concurrent users, which is 20Mb per user, then you're already doing pretty good and I don't think I can come up with many potential optimizations. You could use full client state saving (not token), but there are some potential security risks associated with that and it's going to increase the network load. Dropping the ADF Databinding layer and using POJOs as return values from your application module methods can also yield some interesting RAM gains. Other than that there isn't much really as JSF is a bit memory hungry by design because of the said state saving.
I don't think Facebook could have been coded in ADF, it just not the right framework model for that kind of application, it's really more intranet oriented imho. I did work on some general public applications that ended up pretty well, we still had to twist the framework around every corners to resolve that kind of issues.
Regards,
~ Simon
On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:30 AM, amir hosein khanof
If we supposed that any systems with more than 400 concurrent users and more than 80 pages + 80(TF) is an Enterprise system then: I want to get your suggestions for the installation, configuration and deployment of this enterprise system in WLS. Have do you deployed such an Enterprise scale system with ADF(ADF Faces + ADF BC)? How Many concurrent user do you have? How many cluster you have and how much RAM you specified for each cluster? What is you infrastructure (JVM + WLS version + ADF version + OS version + RAM )?
Last, why I am asking such questions? because I have deployed several enterprise systems with ADF and I see lack of performance in run-time ( I have this problem in SOA/BPM Suite11g also) I am trying to get help from a brainstorming here.
What is the reality? is ADF suitable for such an enterprise level or it is very heavy-weight for Enterprise systems?
we have done several migration from Form Builder to ADF the good-> people are satisfied with functionality, design of page and capability in page component the bad-> in the past they only has database to configure, now they have very huge RAM consumption from WLS.
one of company that I knew has 15 clusters (each cluster has around 4 GIG RAM)! to support 10000 concurrent users, is this normal?is it because ADF needs lots of resources compare to other frameworks? or it is because they do not know how to configure the system? but I am sure that they know the basic ADF performance hints (APP Pool, Connection Pool,debug=false,....). I hope at the end of this brainstorming I found my answer to what is the best configuration for Cluster+WLS+ ADF..
To my experience, for each 150 user we need 3 gig for an Enterprise system in ADF Faces, if it is true, suppose how much RAM needed if the Facebook/Gmail/Oracle Website... was supposed to be written with ADF ;) ...
Thanks Amir
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Hibernate can also be a costly framework. Also note that I didn't name the BC in my post, only the data bindings and using POJO instead of rows since storing rows in the page flow scope won't work well since the row keeps a reference to its VO which keep a ref to its app module. What we currently use is disconnected app modules and interface contract using simple POJOs. We also use the databinding layer only a little (without any pageDef) simply to declare our data control and retrieve them through a common locator method. This allow us to leverage the task flow transaction sharing management (and auto root AM creation). It does requires more code as well have to manually map the POJO with the row objects, but the speed and memory gain is impressive, not to mention the passivation is no longer an issue, ever. As a side note, a POJO's getter method is about 200 times faster than a Row object's. This many look like a micro optimization, but in one of our very heavy task, using POJO resulted in a 2 second boost for the end user.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:21 PM, John Flack <Jo...@smdi.com> wrote: > Just a few thoughts:****
> Make sure that your application server is patched to the latest, including > patches to the ADF libraries. We don’t have much experience with JDev 11g > and Weblogic, but the memory use on a 10g application on OC4J was > significantly reduced when we installed a fairly minor patch to the ADF > libraries.****
> Read up on the performance tuning parameters for your Application Modules > – we got a bit of a bump by fine tuning these.****
> Simon, while the long-time users of Oracle tools (like Forms) in my shop > (including me) are using ADF BC, we have two developers who knew Hibernate, > so they did the Model for their projects in JPA. Their applications simply > don’t perform as well as mine. For that reason, and so that any of our > developers can maintain them, the next versions of these will be switched > to ADF BC.****
> ** **
> *From:* adf-methodology@googlegroups.com [mailto: > adf-methodology@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Simon Lessard > *Sent:* Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:50 AM > *To:* adf-methodology@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [ADF EMG] ADF RAM/Performance Problem for enterprise system > ****
> ** **
> Hi Amir,****
> ** **
> If you already code applications using only 3Gb for 150 concurrent users, > which is 20Mb per user, then you're already doing pretty good and I don't > think I can come up with many potential optimizations. You could use full > client state saving (not token), but there are some potential security > risks associated with that and it's going to increase the network load. > Dropping the ADF Databinding layer and using POJOs as return values from > your application module methods can also yield some interesting RAM gains. > Other than that there isn't much really as JSF is a bit memory hungry by > design because of the said state saving.****
> ** **
> I don't think Facebook could have been coded in ADF, it just not the right > framework model for that kind of application, it's really more intranet > oriented imho. I did work on some general public applications that ended up > pretty well, we still had to twist the framework around every corners to > resolve that kind of issues.****
> ** **
> ** **
> Regards,****
> ** **
> ~ Simon****
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:30 AM, amir hosein khanof < > amir.kha...@gmail.com> wrote:****
> Hi,
> If we supposed that any systems with more than 400 concurrent users and > more than 80 pages + 80(TF) is an Enterprise system then: > I want to get your suggestions for the installation, configuration and > deployment of this enterprise system in WLS. > Have do you deployed such an Enterprise scale system with ADF(ADF Faces + > ADF BC)? > How Many concurrent user do you have? > How many cluster you have and how much RAM you specified for each cluster? > What is you infrastructure (JVM + WLS version + ADF version + OS version + > RAM )?
> Last, why I am asking such questions? because I have deployed several > enterprise systems with ADF and I see lack of performance in run-time ( I > have this problem in SOA/BPM Suite11g also) I am trying to get help from a > brainstorming here.
> What is the reality? is ADF suitable for such an enterprise level or it is > very heavy-weight for Enterprise systems?
> we have done several migration from Form Builder to ADF the good-> people > are satisfied with functionality, design of page and capability in page > component the bad-> in the past they only has database to configure, now > they have very huge RAM consumption from WLS.
> one of company that I knew has 15 clusters (each cluster has around 4 GIG > RAM)! to support 10000 concurrent users, is this normal?is it because ADF > needs lots of resources compare to other frameworks? or it is because they > do not know how to configure the system? but I am sure that they know the > basic ADF performance hints (APP Pool, Connection Pool,debug=false,....). > I hope at the end of this brainstorming I found my answer to what is the > best configuration for Cluster+WLS+ ADF..
> To my experience, for each 150 user we need 3 gig for an Enterprise system > in ADF Faces, if it is true, suppose how much RAM needed if the > Facebook/Gmail/Oracle Website... was supposed to be written with ADF ;) ...
> Thanks > Amir > ****
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> -- > Simon Lessard, ADF Architect > *CMA** **CGM SYSTeMS > **4, quai d’Arenc, 13235 Marseille cedex 02, France*****
> *(** **+33 6 79 37 39 85 (France)*****
> *(** **+1.418.930.0279 (Canada)*****
> ** **
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
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*What about the web logic cost which is most likely to be used with ADF?* Of course. But you are missing my main point which was to show the things to consider when making a Framework choice. RDBMS for example took years to run on cheap hardware it does not mean Cobol was the best choice to take. With Oracle Forms or Reports you sometimes had to use Pro*C or Pro*Cobol for performance but it was always preferable to avoid when possible. If you have no choice and need that performance you always have a way to do it. Simon's approach in using POJO instead of Rows is a great example of it. But I believe there is a cost to it and once need to weight this cost and the cost of adding resources when possible.
One note - A default ADF application that you just built with the wizards may not be optimized for your usage both in terms of performance and memory consumption. Luckily ADF has a lot of tuning capabilities in each one of the layers. I would highly recommend that you invest some time and investigate what exactly is causing your heaviness. Is it that you are getting too much data onto the middletier in the ADF BC layer? Did you look into the VO tuning parameters? Is it too much memory per user? did you look into the scope you are using for saving data in your JSF application? (for example too much session scope when a shorter scope will be good enough). and there are many other tuning parameters that can influence your application performance and memory consumption. Some good reading is in the ADF section of the *Oracle® Fusion Middleware Performance and Tuning Guide*: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E21764_01/core.1111/e10108/adf.htm#CIHHGADG
And of course there is a bunch of other tunings you can do outside of ADF in your environment.
On Dec 19, 2011, at 07:12 AM, Mashrur <mash...@mislbd.com> wrote:
> I can't understand this equation actually. Oracle made a tool/ > framework which will end up selling something expensive [web logic] to > end customer - but that tool is targeted for quick development with > less scalability option - so, who are those end customers who don't > need a scalable app but ready to pay a huge amount for infrastructure > cost [app server, hardware, etc.] ?
When I think of where ADF really 'shines', it's not so much as a massively scalable app (after all, when pursuing 'web scale', you might be jettisoning the notions of JEE, middleware servers and relational databases altogether in the way that Facebook, Evernote, etc. do.) - but it's really in having the tools that allow end users to both manage and analyze large amounts of data.
It's in data management (working with large data sets) where traditional web application development struggles - where dealing with even 5,000 records is easy in 'native' apps (such as Forms, or even Excel), it's difficult to do this with web apps, both from a usability standpoint as well as support for data handling in the browser.
What I reallly, really like about ADF: it abstracts away the hoops you need to jump through (like AJAX calls, etc.) to make a web app feel more like a native app when it comes to these data-centric types of applications. (It takes away that need to write those little applets for data handling purposes.)
The tradeoff, of course, is application scalability. Some of this can be handled with hardware, better clustering, etc. - some can't.
There are some things coming in the HTML5 spec that I'm curious to see eventually be added to things like ADF - for example, will the AJAX-heavy items in ADF be eventually replaced with WebSocket techniques?
ADF(ADFm, ADFc and ADFv) is clearly a more complex framework compared to the other more lightweight J2EE frameworks. This complexity is borne out of the multitudes of abstractions the framework has to do in order to support a very broad set of use cases. There is not wrong per se(it is a logical design decision) but as consumers of this framework we have to be always mindful of this limitation.
For example, we've recently come across a performance problem arising from the use of the ViewRow's setters when populating programmatic VOs(half of our applications model stack is composed of programmatic VOs - long story). The ViewRow's setters ultimately call setAttributeInternal() which causes events to be fired at the ViewObject's EntityCache. So in essence, merely setting an attribute in a row is causing a lot of code to be executed. Advice from Oracle Support is to find a way to bypass those when possible(e.g. for our search result screens, we don't really need to fire the EntityCache events as the ViewObjects are serving only as data holders). This seems to be possible using populateAttribute(a protected ViewRow method).
I've been developing using ADF for only about a year but my conclusion so far is that ADF is not design with performance as a primary consideration. The cynic in me tells me that this is because oracle wants us to buy more WebLogic licenses... :D Kidding aside, there are other frameworks out there that can easily handle 10-100 times more load than ADF. And if you are bold enough to venture outside of the J2EE ecosystem, stacks like node.js can easily handle even more (concurrent) load. Of course those kinds of frameworks have their drawbacks in lesser ease of development(which IMO is just a euphemism for losing the ability to hire mediocre developers and still expect functional software).
Additionally, ADF is only half the equation. WebLogic is also a problem by itself. I will not argue about its features. Its feature set is massive(heck I don't even know all of the features). But features are not free. In comparison to bare Java containers like Tomcat, WebLogic is a giant, complicated, resource hungry chainsaw(whereas Tomcat is *just* a good 'old handheld saw). Depending on the situation, this may be a good or bad thing.
Even the Integrated WebLogic server is a resource hog. Start it up without any deployed application and it still consumes a good 1GB of memory. Combine this with Jdeveloper's 1GB and you are easily consuming more than half of a typical developer's machine(typical in the developing/third world at least). Put this in contrast to the lightweight(comparatively) Eclipse/Tomcat combination and you will see how some developers find the ADF tech stack to be a giant vat of sticky, heavy molasses.
ADF is more Application Framework ,not realistically Web Application Framework. It is more web oriented to convert Oracle Forms , Portal application to ADF.
ADF is very good framework for RAD for building custom intranet based ERP , SCM , Business application. I am sure no other framework can do faster than ADF.
I would not suggest ADF for half a million user or even few thousands because after each ADF application deployment with webcenter we have to restart server which is OK with small number of users using application build on ADF , but not with 24/7 kind of application.
Hope to see some massive changes from Oracle about ADF or i would suggest oracle to move to light weight EJB which they have bought and recognized in Market.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Hyangelo Hao <hyang...@gmail.com> wrote: > ADF(ADFm, ADFc and ADFv) is clearly a more complex framework compared > to the other more lightweight J2EE frameworks. This complexity is > borne out of the multitudes of abstractions the framework has to do in > order to support a very broad set of use cases. There is not wrong per > se(it is a logical design decision) but as consumers of this framework > we have to be always mindful of this limitation.
> For example, we've recently come across a performance problem arising > from the use of the ViewRow's setters when populating programmatic > VOs(half of our applications model stack is composed of programmatic > VOs - long story). The ViewRow's setters ultimately call > setAttributeInternal() which causes events to be fired at the > ViewObject's EntityCache. So in essence, merely setting an attribute > in a row is causing a lot of code to be executed. Advice from Oracle > Support is to find a way to bypass those when possible(e.g. for our > search result screens, we don't really need to fire the EntityCache > events as the ViewObjects are serving only as data holders). This > seems to be possible using populateAttribute(a protected ViewRow > method).
> I've been developing using ADF for only about a year but my conclusion > so far is that ADF is not design with performance as a primary > consideration. The cynic in me tells me that this is because oracle > wants us to buy more WebLogic licenses... :D Kidding aside, there are > other frameworks out there that can easily handle 10-100 times more > load than ADF. And if you are bold enough to venture outside of the > J2EE ecosystem, stacks like node.js can easily handle even more > (concurrent) load. Of course those kinds of frameworks have their > drawbacks in lesser ease of development(which IMO is just a euphemism > for losing the ability to hire mediocre developers and still expect > functional software).
> Additionally, ADF is only half the equation. WebLogic is also a > problem by itself. I will not argue about its features. Its feature > set is massive(heck I don't even know all of the features). But > features are not free. In comparison to bare Java containers like > Tomcat, WebLogic is a giant, complicated, resource hungry > chainsaw(whereas Tomcat is *just* a good 'old handheld saw). Depending > on the situation, this may be a good or bad thing.
> Even the Integrated WebLogic server is a resource hog. Start it up > without any deployed application and it still consumes a good 1GB of > memory. Combine this with Jdeveloper's 1GB and you are easily > consuming more than half of a typical developer's machine(typical in > the developing/third world at least). Put this in contrast to the > lightweight(comparatively) Eclipse/Tomcat combination and you will see > how some developers find the ADF tech stack to be a giant vat of > sticky, heavy molasses.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
I've said this before but I think it bears repeating.
The ADF tool support is lame. Specifically, it doesn't really reach the needs of the advanced developer. Maven support is broken, as of today, and JDeveloper is really tooled around helping a single developer work versus helping a team work.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. In JDev, I can push out a new deployment to my producation WLS server with a simple right click (ಠ_ಠ). Great for a single guy to help a business unit, awful idea for more structured group that needs to maintain things like repeatability. Conversely, there is no Hudson/Jenkins plugin to say "Build and test *this* version. If it passes label it as ok and push to test".
JDev devs, here is my Christmas wish. I want a maven plugin which can generate an ADF-enabled EAR file as easily as I can generate a vanilla EAR file.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:22 PM, hasim <hsai...@gmail.com> wrote: > ADF is more Application Framework ,not realistically Web Application > Framework. > It is more web oriented to convert Oracle Forms , Portal application to > ADF.
> ADF is very good framework for RAD for building custom intranet based > ERP , SCM , Business application. I am sure no other framework can > do faster than ADF.
> I would not suggest ADF for half a million user or even few thousands > because after > each ADF application deployment with webcenter we have to restart server > which > is OK with small number of users using application build on ADF , but not > with > 24/7 kind of application.
> Hope to see some massive changes from Oracle about ADF or i would suggest > oracle to move to light weight EJB which they have bought and recognized in > Market.
> Thanks, > Hasim
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Hyangelo Hao <hyang...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ADF(ADFm, ADFc and ADFv) is clearly a more complex framework compared >> to the other more lightweight J2EE frameworks. This complexity is >> borne out of the multitudes of abstractions the framework has to do in >> order to support a very broad set of use cases. There is not wrong per >> se(it is a logical design decision) but as consumers of this framework >> we have to be always mindful of this limitation.
>> For example, we've recently come across a performance problem arising >> from the use of the ViewRow's setters when populating programmatic >> VOs(half of our applications model stack is composed of programmatic >> VOs - long story). The ViewRow's setters ultimately call >> setAttributeInternal() which causes events to be fired at the >> ViewObject's EntityCache. So in essence, merely setting an attribute >> in a row is causing a lot of code to be executed. Advice from Oracle >> Support is to find a way to bypass those when possible(e.g. for our >> search result screens, we don't really need to fire the EntityCache >> events as the ViewObjects are serving only as data holders). This >> seems to be possible using populateAttribute(a protected ViewRow >> method).
>> I've been developing using ADF for only about a year but my conclusion >> so far is that ADF is not design with performance as a primary >> consideration. The cynic in me tells me that this is because oracle >> wants us to buy more WebLogic licenses... :D Kidding aside, there are >> other frameworks out there that can easily handle 10-100 times more >> load than ADF. And if you are bold enough to venture outside of the >> J2EE ecosystem, stacks like node.js can easily handle even more >> (concurrent) load. Of course those kinds of frameworks have their >> drawbacks in lesser ease of development(which IMO is just a euphemism >> for losing the ability to hire mediocre developers and still expect >> functional software).
>> Additionally, ADF is only half the equation. WebLogic is also a >> problem by itself. I will not argue about its features. Its feature >> set is massive(heck I don't even know all of the features). But >> features are not free. In comparison to bare Java containers like >> Tomcat, WebLogic is a giant, complicated, resource hungry >> chainsaw(whereas Tomcat is *just* a good 'old handheld saw). Depending >> on the situation, this may be a good or bad thing.
>> Even the Integrated WebLogic server is a resource hog. Start it up >> without any deployed application and it still consumes a good 1GB of >> memory. Combine this with Jdeveloper's 1GB and you are easily >> consuming more than half of a typical developer's machine(typical in >> the developing/third world at least). Put this in contrast to the >> lightweight(comparatively) Eclipse/Tomcat combination and you will see >> how some developers find the ADF tech stack to be a giant vat of >> sticky, heavy molasses.
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF >> Enterprise Methodology Group ( >> http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To unsubscribe send >> email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> I've said this before but I think it bears repeating.
> The ADF tool support is lame. Specifically, it doesn't really reach the > needs of the advanced developer. Maven support is broken, as of today, and > JDeveloper is really tooled around helping a single developer work versus > helping a team work.
> Here's an example of what I'm talking about. In JDev, I can push out a new > deployment to my producation WLS server with a simple right click (ಠ_ಠ). > Great for a single guy to help a business unit, awful idea for more > structured group that needs to maintain things like repeatability. > Conversely, there is no Hudson/Jenkins plugin to say "Build and test *this* > version. If it passes label it as ok and push to test".
> JDev devs, here is my Christmas wish. I want a maven plugin which can > generate an ADF-enabled EAR file as easily as I can generate a vanilla EAR > file.
> Mark
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:22 PM, hasim <hsai...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ADF is more Application Framework ,not realistically Web Application >> Framework. >> It is more web oriented to convert Oracle Forms , Portal application to >> ADF.
>> ADF is very good framework for RAD for building custom intranet based >> ERP , SCM , Business application. I am sure no other framework can >> do faster than ADF.
>> I would not suggest ADF for half a million user or even few thousands >> because after >> each ADF application deployment with webcenter we have to restart server >> which >> is OK with small number of users using application build on ADF , but not >> with >> 24/7 kind of application.
>> Hope to see some massive changes from Oracle about ADF or i would suggest >> oracle to move to light weight EJB which they have bought and recognized >> in >> Market.
>> Thanks, >> Hasim
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Hyangelo Hao <hyang...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ADF(ADFm, ADFc and ADFv) is clearly a more complex framework compared >>> to the other more lightweight J2EE frameworks. This complexity is >>> borne out of the multitudes of abstractions the framework has to do in >>> order to support a very broad set of use cases. There is not wrong per >>> se(it is a logical design decision) but as consumers of this framework >>> we have to be always mindful of this limitation.
>>> For example, we've recently come across a performance problem arising >>> from the use of the ViewRow's setters when populating programmatic >>> VOs(half of our applications model stack is composed of programmatic >>> VOs - long story). The ViewRow's setters ultimately call >>> setAttributeInternal() which causes events to be fired at the >>> ViewObject's EntityCache. So in essence, merely setting an attribute >>> in a row is causing a lot of code to be executed. Advice from Oracle >>> Support is to find a way to bypass those when possible(e.g. for our >>> search result screens, we don't really need to fire the EntityCache >>> events as the ViewObjects are serving only as data holders). This >>> seems to be possible using populateAttribute(a protected ViewRow >>> method).
>>> I've been developing using ADF for only about a year but my conclusion >>> so far is that ADF is not design with performance as a primary >>> consideration. The cynic in me tells me that this is because oracle >>> wants us to buy more WebLogic licenses... :D Kidding aside, there are >>> other frameworks out there that can easily handle 10-100 times more >>> load than ADF. And if you are bold enough to venture outside of the >>> J2EE ecosystem, stacks like node.js can easily handle even more >>> (concurrent) load. Of course those kinds of frameworks have their >>> drawbacks in lesser ease of development(which IMO is just a euphemism >>> for losing the ability to hire mediocre developers and still expect >>> functional software).
>>> Additionally, ADF is only half the equation. WebLogic is also a >>> problem by itself. I will not argue about its features. Its feature >>> set is massive(heck I don't even know all of the features). But >>> features are not free. In comparison to bare Java containers like >>> Tomcat, WebLogic is a giant, complicated, resource hungry >>> chainsaw(whereas Tomcat is *just* a good 'old handheld saw). Depending >>> on the situation, this may be a good or bad thing.
>>> Even the Integrated WebLogic server is a resource hog. Start it up >>> without any deployed application and it still consumes a good 1GB of >>> memory. Combine this with Jdeveloper's 1GB and you are easily >>> consuming more than half of a typical developer's machine(typical in >>> the developing/third world at least). Put this in contrast to the >>> lightweight(comparatively) Eclipse/Tomcat combination and you will see >>> how some developers find the ADF tech stack to be a giant vat of >>> sticky, heavy molasses.
>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF >>> Enterprise Methodology Group >>> (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To unsubscribe send email >>> to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise >> Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To >> unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
First of all thanks for all the persons who participate in this topic, second I will write an highlight of the above posts. To me the main point is what the *Mashrur* said, he is right.
The problem is not solved if we said that we boost the hardware and in the future the hardware would be more cheaper... it is not a solution( the application is not fast just for reference open the Oracle Worklist or Oracle Workspace with only 1 user and see how it is acting? the application is served in very low speed! we boosts the hardware we gain more users but each user is served in low speed). If we say that ADF is an Enterprise solution we must be able to build an enterprise system with that.
if we read the *Mashrur *post, we can conclude that the ADF/Jdeveloper team in Oracle are not very clear in business and marketing and even targeting the customer! to me, they do not have a bright future successful plan.
what is ADF going to be? a fantasy framework that have tons of features that you can mix those feature in fragment of seconds but you can only serve few users in low speed???
or ADF is going to be leader in JEE worlds? of course ADF can be! because it has all the tools in hand(WLS,Ajax,JSF,...) but the reality is that the ADF/Jdeveloper team or the product manager seems that concerns only about features and soon we have to draw a line over "ADF is an Enterprise Framework".
My aim for this post is not to say that ADF is not as fast as more pure technologies, of course it is not supposed to be, if we got ease we lose performance, but my aim is that we need to make the ADF/Jdeveloper team awake! to me they are not plan to boost this framework they only try to embellish this framework with features.
to clarify the issue, we are building a car with hundreds of facility and we totally forgot the engine!!! so in near future we would have a car with lots of feature and make user entertain for hours and then they would ask why this car can not gain speed??? do you think that this car would be successful in market??? of course not!
I think that this kind of posts must be reach to development team of ADF.
Be honest, in the near future the ADF would be a bottleneck for Oracle Fusion, it is clear, because we are integrating everything with ADF if ADF is not performing well so the whole Fusion would be in danger suppose we have Oracle BPM which is very good in performance and can support more than 100,000 concurrent processes but each process has a Human Task developed with ADF(Worklist is also developed with ADF) which is not performing for this huge users...
is it really not feasible to boost the framework of ADF??? I do not believe! are they really care about it? I do not think...
have you visit the various ADF blogs in internet? or ADF presentations in OOW??? what we saw? only presenting the new features... where is the presentations for boosting the Framework itself?
and also are this kind of lake of performance related to JSF or taskflow I do not think so I think the main bottleneck is the ADF BC ( AM Pooling, VO,Eo,...) just for reference I have wrote an application with ADF Faces without ADF BC and it has not any performance issue until know the concurrent user is around 1500 users.
*at last there is an quick overview of this pos*t: ==============================================================
*Anton*
- If you want that many concurrent users, don't go for ADF - Performance will never be as good as other JEE framework. - ADF has sacrificed a lot in order to fully support drag and drop and generic components. - memory usage and CPU goes insane for a single user. - Weblogic is the best JEE application server - weblogic is heavy weight server supporting a lot of features of which ADF uses almost nothing, features intended for JEE frameworks. - JEE can scale horizontal and vertical. ADF will not, simple due to the application module being so heavy and the concept of a statefull session facade. - ADF keeps its application module, which is even heavier then any other state full session facade out there - It reduces the complexity of JEE application but imposes certain drawbacks, one of them being performance and scalability.
*Rajeev*
- ADF application that uses all ADF layers, is not to be recommended for more than 500 concurrent users. - ADF is inherently a heavy n/w framework. - ADF faces (UI part) is what makes it real heavy.
*Amr*
- do one thing to rapidly enhance performance by Don't use Data Binding Layer aka Drag and Drop - return back to the backing beans and manage beans, this will boost your performance by 200% - not use so much TF
*Jean-Marc*
- performance issue related to an hardware resource constraint is not a problem as long as it can be sorted out at an affordable cost. - ADF is not meant for Google scale apps but that it is for 10,000 users Enterprises
*Jang-Vijay Singh *
- whole Fusion applications suite could need 120 GB of memory. - Historically, hardware (RAM, processing power, storage) has only become cheaper and better so it should hardly constrain one from using the framework 'where appropriate' .
*Mashrur *
- Oracle made ADF to sell web logic. - Oracle made a tool/framework which will end up selling something expensive [web logic] - ADF is targeted for quick development with less scalability option - who are those end customers who don't need a scalable app but ready to pay a huge amount for infrastructure cost [app server, hardware, etc.] ? - why ADF Customers (who pay huge money for WLS infrastructure) won't have better options to choose from? - who are those ISVs who do not want or can't invest a good amount for skilled developers [who will be apt at using something productive and scalable] to make something which will be bought by some rich end clients? - ADF (quick development with less scalability)equation is not going to work in the long run - Making everything declarative is may be a way to attract some forms developers - why it is not possible to make this declarations into something compiled in first build..[reducing the need of xml parsing] just wondering!
*John Flack *
- Make sure that your application server is patched to the latest. - Hibernate/JPA simply don’t perform as well as ADF
*Simon *
- Hibernate can also be a costly framework - Also note that I didn't name the BC in my post, only the data bindings and using POJO instead of rows since storing rows in the page flow scope won't work well since the row keeps a reference to its VO which keep a ref to its app module. - disconnected app modules and interface contract using simple POJOs and using databinding layer only a little would result in good performance. - POJO's getter method is about 200 times faster than a Row object's. - in one of our very heavy task, using POJO resulted in a 2 second boost for the end user.
*Shay *
- A default ADF application that you just built with the wizards may not be optimized for your usage both in terms of performance and memory consumption. - Luckily ADF has a lot of tuning capabilities in each one of the layers. - there are many other tuning parameters that can influence your application performance and memory consumption.
*Chad *
- I think of where ADF really 'shines', it's not so much as a massively scalable app - ADF shines really in having the tools that allow end users to both manage and analyze large amounts of data. - traditional web application in data management development struggles - where dealing with even 5,000 records is easy in 'native' apps (such as Forms, or even Excel), it's difficult to do this with web apps, both from a usability standpoint as well as support for data handling in the browser. - it abstracts away the hoops you need to jump through (like AJAX calls, etc.) to make a web app feel more like a native app when it comes to these data-centric types of applications. (It takes away that need to write those little applets for data handling purposes.) - The tradeoff, of course, is application scalability. Some of this can be handled with hardware, better clustering, etc. - some can't.
*Hyangelo *
- ADF is not design with performance as a primary consideration. - oracle wants us to buy more WebLogic licenses :D - there are other frameworks out there that can easily handle 10-100 times more load than ADF with lesser ease of development - WebLogic is also a problem by itself. Its feature set is massive But features are not free. - Weblogic In comparison to bare Java containers like Tomcat, WebLogic is a giant, complicated, resource hungry - Even the Integrated WebLogic server is a resource hog.Combine this with Jdeveloper's 1GB.
*Hasim *
- ADF is more Application Framework ,not realistically Web Application Framework. - ADF is very good framework for RAD for building custom intranet based ERP , SCM , Business application. - I would not suggest ADF for half a million user or even few thousands - after each ADF application deployment with webcenter we have to restart server - Hope to see some massive changes from Oracle about ADF or - I suggest oracle to move to light weight EJB which they have bought and recognized in Market.
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Chris Muir <chriscm...@gmail.com> wrote: > Please keep this thread on topic, discussions on tool support is a new > thread.
> Chris Muir
> On 20 December 2011 11:07, Mark Robinson <m...@mrobinson.ca> wrote: > > I've said this before but I think it bears repeating.
> > The ADF tool support is lame. Specifically, it doesn't really reach the > > needs of the
Amir, thank you for taking time out to summarize all the posts, few people take the time to do this.
Chris Muir ADF EMG Group Moderator
On Tuesday, 20 December 2011, amir hosein khanof <amir.kha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well,
> First of all thanks for all the persons who participate in this topic,
second I will write an highlight of the above posts.
> To me the main point is what the Mashrur said, he is right.
> The problem is not solved if we said that we boost the hardware and in
the future the hardware would be more cheaper... it is not a solution( the application is not fast just for reference open the Oracle Worklist or Oracle Workspace with only 1 user and see how it is acting? the application is served in very low speed! we boosts the hardware we gain more users but each user is served in low speed).
> If we say that ADF is an Enterprise solution we must be able to build an
enterprise system with that.
> if we read the Mashrur post, we can conclude that the ADF/Jdeveloper team
in Oracle are not very clear in business and marketing and even targeting the customer! to me, they do not have a bright future successful plan.
> what is ADF going to be? a fantasy framework that have tons of features
that you can mix those feature in fragment of seconds but you can only serve few users in low speed???
> or ADF is going to be leader in JEE worlds? of course ADF can be! because
it has all the tools in hand(WLS,Ajax,JSF,...) but the reality is that the ADF/Jdeveloper team or the product manager seems that concerns only about features and soon we have to draw a line over "ADF is an Enterprise Framework".
> My aim for this post is not to say that ADF is not as fast as more pure
technologies, of course it is not supposed to be, if we got ease we lose performance, but my aim is that we need to make the ADF/Jdeveloper team awake! to me they are not plan to boost this framework they only try to embellish this framework with features.
> to clarify the issue, we are building a car with hundreds of facility and
we totally forgot the engine!!! so in near future we would have a car with lots of feature and make user entertain for hours and then they would ask why this car can not gain speed??? do you think that this car would be successful in market??? of course not!
> I think that this kind of posts must be reach to development team of ADF.
> Be honest, in the near future the ADF would be a bottleneck for Oracle
Fusion, it is clear, because we are integrating everything with ADF if ADF is not performing well so the whole Fusion would be in danger suppose we have Oracle BPM which is very good in performance and can support more than 100,000 concurrent processes but each process has a Human Task developed with ADF(Worklist is also developed with ADF) which is not performing for this huge users...
> is it really not feasible to boost the framework of ADF??? I do not believe! > are they really care about it? I do not think...
> have you visit the various ADF blogs in internet? or ADF presentations in
OOW??? what we saw? only presenting the new features... where is the presentations for boosting the Framework itself?
> and also are this kind of lake of performance related to JSF or taskflow
I do not think so I think the main bottleneck is the ADF BC ( AM Pooling, VO,Eo,...) just for reference I have wrote an application with ADF Faces without ADF BC and it has not any performance issue until know the concurrent user is around 1500 users.
> at last there is an quick overview of this post: > ==============================================================
> Anton
> If you want that many concurrent users, don't go for ADF > Performance will never be as good as other JEE framework. > ADF has sacrificed a lot in order to fully support drag and drop and generic components. > memory usage and CPU goes insane for a single user. > Weblogic is the best JEE application server > weblogic is heavy weight server supporting a lot of features of which ADF
uses almost nothing, features intended for JEE frameworks.
> JEE can scale horizontal and vertical. ADF will not, simple due to the
application module being so heavy and the concept of a statefull session facade.
> ADF keeps its application module, which is even heavier then any other
state full session facade out there
> It reduces the complexity of JEE application but imposes certain
drawbacks, one of them being performance and scalability.
> Rajeev
> ADF application that uses all ADF layers, is not to be recommended for
more than 500 concurrent users.
> ADF is inherently a heavy n/w framework. > ADF faces (UI part) is what makes it real heavy.
> Amr
> do one thing to rapidly enhance performance by Don't use Data Binding
Layer aka Drag and Drop
> return back to the backing beans and manage beans, this will boost your performance by 200% > not use so much TF
> Jean-Marc
> performance issue related to an hardware resource constraint is not a
problem as long as it can be sorted out at an affordable cost.
> ADF is not meant for Google scale apps but that it is for 10,000 users Enterprises
> Jang-Vijay Singh
> whole Fusion applications suite could need 120 GB of memory. > Historically, hardware (RAM, processing power, storage) has only become
cheaper and better so it should hardly constrain one from using the framework 'where appropriate' .
> Mashrur
> Oracle made ADF to sell web logic. > Oracle made a tool/framework which will end up selling something
expensive [web logic]
> ADF is targeted for quick development with less scalability option > who are those end customers who don't need a scalable app but ready to
pay a huge amount for infrastructure cost [app server, hardware, etc.] ?
> why ADF Customers (who pay huge money for WLS infrastructure) won't have
better options to choose from?
> who are those ISVs who do not want or can't invest a good amount for
skilled developers [who will be apt at using something productive and scalable] to make something which will be bought by some rich end clients?
> ADF (quick development with less scalability)equation is not going to
work in the long run
> Making everything declarative is may be a way to attract some forms developers > why it is not possible to make this declarations into something compiled
in first build..[reducing the need of xml parsing] just wondering!
> John Flack
> Make sure that your application server is patched to the latest. > Hibernate/JPA simply don’t perform as well as ADF
> Simon
> Hibernate can also be a costly framework > Also note that I didn't name the BC in my post, only the data bindings
and using POJO instead of rows since storing rows in the page flow scope won't work well since the row keeps a reference to its VO which keep a ref to its app module.
> disconnected app modules and interface contract using simple POJOs and
using databinding layer only a little would result in good performance.
> POJO's getter method is about 200 times faster than a Row object's. > in one of our very heavy task, using POJO resulted in a 2 second boost for the end user.
> Shay
> A default ADF application that you just built with the wizards may not
be optimized for your usage both in terms of performance and memory consumption.
> Luckily ADF has a lot of tuning capabilities in each one of the layers. > there are many other tuning parameters that can influence your
application performance and memory consumption.
> Chad
> I think of where ADF really 'shines', it's not so much as a massively scalable app > ADF shines really in having the tools that allow end users to both manage
and analyze large amounts of data.
> traditional web application in data management development struggles -
where dealing with even 5,000 records is easy in 'native' apps (such as Forms, or even Excel), it's difficult to do this with web apps, both from a usability standpoint as well as support for data handling in the browser.
> it abstracts away the hoops you need to jump through (like AJAX calls,
etc.) to make a web app feel more like a native app when it comes to these data-centric types of applications. (It takes away that need to write those little applets for data handling purposes.)
> The tradeoff, of course, is application scalability. Some of this can be
handled with hardware, better clustering, etc. - some can't.
> Hyangelo
> ADF is not design with performance as a primary consideration. > oracle wants us to buy more WebLogic licenses :D > there are other frameworks out there that can easily handle 10-100 times
more load than ADF with lesser ease of development
> WebLogic is also a problem by itself. Its feature set is massive But
features are not free.
> Weblogic In comparison to bare Java containers like Tomcat, WebLogic is a
giant, complicated, resource hungry
> Even the Integrated WebLogic server is a resource hog.Combine this with Jdeveloper's 1GB.
> Hasim
> ADF is more Application Framework ,not realistically Web Application Framework. > ADF is very good framework for RAD for building custom intranet based
ERP , SCM , Business application.
> I would not suggest ADF for half a million user or even few thousands > after each ADF application deployment with webcenter we have to restart server > Hope to see some massive changes from Oracle about ADF or > I suggest oracle to move to light weight EJB which they have bought and
Hello We have migrated an Application from Forms to ADF (more than 60 men years development) We are deploying to different customers scaled from 10 users to 1500 users. Pages are heavy, with many view objects each. We have performed most of the known tuning practices. yet our load testing cannot exceed 100 users per cpu with 16G ram. Scaling up is by clustering many servers It is still cheaper to sell by named user than by cpu. I think the license cost is the main reason that reducing the amount of concurrent users is not the main concern of oracle. if you could load 1000 users in one cpu then the license fees would be 10 times less? I feel the license fees policy should be more competitive. Then even if i needed more hardware to support concurrent users the cost would be acceptable Even if we need double the time to build an application in another framework, we would gain more while selling to more users. This difference is much more with BPM,UCM,WC. As developers we want to use BPM to complete the application since it is the most sophisticated and more easy to use. The maintenance cost for us would be lower .Yet the license cost seems to be 10 times more than other competitive frameworks and customers measure than more than the custom maintenance cost.
I think what is missing here is a systematic benchmark document, comparing the performance and scalability differences between the same application, running on the same physical machine and db, developed in: 1.ADF and BC 2.ADF and toplink EJB 3.Plain jsf and open source model technologies
Is it possible for Oracle to supply their customers with such facts and figures? Thank you! NA http://nickaiva.blogspot.com
> Hello > We have migrated an Application from Forms to ADF (more than 60 men > years development) > We are deploying to different customers scaled from 10 users to 1500 > users. > Pages are heavy, with many view objects each. > We have performed most of the known tuning practices. yet our load > testing cannot exceed 100 users per cpu with 16G ram. > Scaling up is by clustering many servers > It is still cheaper to sell by named user than by cpu. > I think the license cost is the main reason that reducing the amount > of concurrent users is not the main concern of oracle. > if you could load 1000 users in one cpu then the license fees would be > 10 times less? > I feel the license fees policy should be more competitive. Then even > if i needed more hardware to support concurrent users the cost would > be acceptable > Even if we need double the time to build an application in another > framework, we would gain more while selling to more users. > This difference is much more with BPM,UCM,WC. > As developers we want to use BPM to complete the application since it > is the most sophisticated and more easy to use. The maintenance cost > for us would be lower .Yet the license cost seems to be 10 times more > than other competitive frameworks and customers measure than more than > the custom maintenance cost.
It would be good if Oracle Fussion/Jdeveloper/ADF product managers/Architects can comment on this kind of threads.
I am sure they must have done some performance tests done for the Fussion Apps, if they could share the numbers or experience, that would answer atleast some of the concerns raised.
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Nick Aiva <nicka...@yahoo.gr> wrote: > I think what is missing here is a systematic benchmark document, comparing > the performance and scalability differences between the same application, > running on the same physical machine and db, developed in: > 1.ADF and BC > 2.ADF and toplink EJB > 3.Plain jsf and open source model technologies
> Is it possible for Oracle to supply their customers with such facts and > figures? > Thank you! > NA > http://nickaiva.blogspot.com
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
I agree, I'd like to see a systematic analysis providing empirical evidence by members of the group to back up the subjective opinions please.
In turn I'm sure the Oracle staff are listening. However please remember it is Christmas followed by New Year, and like you they have family and friends to focus on as a priority.
CM.
On 21 December 2011 03:59, Ramesh K <rkancha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It would be good if Oracle Fussion/Jdeveloper/ADF product > managers/Architects can comment on this kind of threads.
> I am sure they must have done some performance tests done for the Fussion > Apps, if they could share the numbers or experience, that would answer > atleast some of the concerns raised.
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Nick Aiva <nicka...@yahoo.gr> wrote:
>> I think what is missing here is a systematic benchmark document, comparing >> the performance and scalability differences between the same application, >> running on the same physical machine and db, developed in: >> 1.ADF and BC >> 2.ADF and toplink EJB >> 3.Plain jsf and open source model technologies
>> Is it possible for Oracle to supply their customers with such facts and >> figures? >> Thank you! >> NA >> http://nickaiva.blogspot.com
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise >> Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To >> unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the ADF Enterprise > Methodology Group (http://groups.google.com/group/adf-methodology). To > unsubscribe send email to adf-methodology+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
