Hello.all members of the Abbenay Hackspace emaillist.
This is an important message about what Abbenay is and how we are organised. If you are a member of Abbenay please read this and attend the summit (AFK or at IRC).
Certain issues has come up that we need to talk about all together as a group. Therefore I, as the current administrator, would like to call for a grand meeting/summit (*stormöte*). In our bylaws (that are being translated into English very soon) it is stated that we need to notify all members at least two weeks in advance. Here is a draft by myself, Sebastian Liem and Google Translate. http://docs.google.com/View?id=dsst9bb_29386ckgbft . Those of you who know English and Swedish are very welcome to help.
Now the bidding starts.Here are times that I can.
Afternoon of 17 of October all day 18 of October Afternoon all day 19 of October Before 17.30 20 of October Afternoon & evening 21 October Evening 22 of October
Facts:
This organsation has bylaws which unfurtunately hasn't been translated into english yet.
We state in our bylaws that the only goal for this organisation is to provide a location and tools for it's members. We have made no political statements as a group. This association consists of individuals who use the space the association provides for them. These individuals do not represent Abbenay as a whole unless Abbenay as a whole has decided this.
In our bylaws we state that members are those willing to be members and also accept the bylaws.
Something I think that we can agree on is that this is an anarchisticly organised organisation. Having said this I think the previous statement is extremely problematic that this isn't something we have discussed at all. Our bylaws state that we are not bound to any political party, other than that there is no evidence, no decision that we are in fact a an anarchisticly organised organisation. This is something I guess we have taken for granted since most active members are anarchists or have anarchistic tendencies.
Taking things for granted is not good. And not having told new members of the emaillist about our bylaws or the anarchism is not good either.
The issues we have to discuss are these:
We must decide on a form for how we make decisions as a group. Do we even want to make statements as a group? Is a decision taken when nobody objects? What happens when someone does object? In our bylaws it says that "big decisions" are taken on summits and with simple majority vote, what are big decisions?
Do we need to agree on some kind of policy about what is okay and what is not?
I like to do stuff. I have not disagreed with anything discussed on this list so far. But we need to be crystal clear, there can be no misconceptions!
Please write dates that suit you here, CLEARLY mind you.
I suggest that while we can have a discussion here on the list about the the above issues we should leave the main discussion for the summit and not let it take up all time for the workshop on saturday.
> Hello.all members of the Abbenay Hackspace emaillist.
> This is an important message about what Abbenay is and how we are > organised. If you are a member of Abbenay please read this and attend > the summit (AFK or at IRC).
> Certain issues has come up that we need to talk about all together as > a group. Therefore I, as the current administrator, would like to call > for a grand meeting/summit (*stormöte*). In our bylaws (that are being > translated into English very soon) it is stated that we need to notify > all members at least two weeks in advance. Here is a draft by myself, > Sebastian Liem and Google Translate.
Do you guys consult Google for EVERYTHING!?
> Now the bidding starts.Here are times that I can.
> Afternoon of 17 of October > all day 18 of October > Afternoon all day 19 of October > Before 17.30 20 of October > Afternoon & evening 21 October > Evening 22 of October
I’m free all day the 17:th, as well as 18:th up to a point (I need to get home to Uppsala in time for bed ;). I probably can’t at all on any of the week days, but weekends should be fine (with the exceptions of this weekend and the one following it).
By the way, I tried configuring a mailman list on eval.nu, is anybody interested in using it in stead? I’ve heard there were problems with lost messages on this list. Anyway, the list can be found at http://eval.nu/mailman/listinfo/abbenay_eval.nu. It is hosted on my account at trick.ca. If anybody wants moderator priviliges or admin access, just give me a shout.
No I don't consult google for everything but having studied some computational linguistics and knowing one or to things about the state machine translation today I choose google translate simply for the reason that it's one of the best. I already use google docs for another project and other people tend to find it easy to use.
We have been talking about stop using google groups but since it hasn't been to bad nobody has been motivated enough.
> At Thu, 1 Oct 2009 18:36:15 +0200, > Hedvig Skirgård wrote:
>> Hello.all members of the Abbenay Hackspace emaillist.
>> This is an important message about what Abbenay is and how we are >> organised. If you are a member of Abbenay please read this and attend >> the summit (AFK or at IRC).
>> Certain issues has come up that we need to talk about all together as >> a group. Therefore I, as the current administrator, would like to call >> for a grand meeting/summit (*stormöte*). In our bylaws (that are being >> translated into English very soon) it is stated that we need to notify >> all members at least two weeks in advance. Here is a draft by myself, >> Sebastian Liem and Google Translate.
> Do you guys consult Google for EVERYTHING!?
>> Now the bidding starts.Here are times that I can.
>> Afternoon of 17 of October >> all day 18 of October >> Afternoon all day 19 of October >> Before 17.30 20 of October >> Afternoon & evening 21 October >> Evening 22 of October
> I’m free all day the 17:th, as well as 18:th up to a point (I need to get home to > Uppsala in time for bed ;). I probably can’t at all on any of the week days, but > weekends should be fine (with the exceptions of this weekend and the one > following it).
> By the way, I tried configuring a mailman list on eval.nu, is anybody interested > in using it in stead? I’ve heard there were problems with lost messages on this > list. Anyway, the list can be found at > http://eval.nu/mailman/listinfo/abbenay_eval.nu. It is hosted on my account at > trick.ca. If anybody wants moderator priviliges or admin access, just give me a > shout.
> From: sebastien.bourdeaud...@gmail.com > To: abbenay-hackspace@googlegroups.com > Subject: [abbenay] Re: Summit - Important topics to discuss about the future of Abbenay > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 21:58:50 +0200 > CC: hedvig.skirg...@gmail.com
> On Thursday 01 October 2009 18:36:15 Hedvig Skirgård wrote: > > Afternoon of 17 of October > Ok
> > all day 18 of October > Preferably not
> > Afternoon all day 19 of October > Not OK
> > Before 17.30 20 of October > Not OK
> > Afternoon & evening 21 October > Ok - preferred
I have read the policy document and have to ask (really) you, everyone, what the purpose of this document is. As far as I can see, it's basicly the standard template set of bylaws that all associations in Sweden use and need to use in order to get funding. There are certain requirements, such as having a board and having majority overrule as basic principle. There's also centralized handling of funding and administration as well as a very rigid (and problematic) form of meeting with a set agenda and organizational roles.
I find this very problematic for several reasons where the most important one is the actual lack of anarchism in the form presented. These bylaws are written for majority rule - that is, a majority led by the chosen few. It's a highly volatile and sluggish form of organization where the focus is to preserve the association as one voice, keeping everything in accord (samförstånd). If you read the text, you will notice that almost every word is about control and how to avoid members going astray from majority rule. There is very little to nothing about enabling a multitude, empowering initiatives or agonist organizing (co-existing of incompatible ideas, agendas and practices). The last one is actually seen as a problem, as the majority rules. My experiences from this form of organization is poor at best.
I'd like to hack it.
I'd like to say that this is what you will have to show to the authorities. That does not mean it has anything to do with how we are to organize. It could, but why should it? There are plenty of other options. I think I have said before that I'd like to give a workshop in participatory forms of organization. Not to establish a new pattern, but rather to reduce the patterns to those that we/you think you need - without the need for centralization. An organization is a regulated system - that means we could rewrite the code that does. Instead of being given tools by the government, we'd build our own. Tell me if you are interested in that.
That being said, I'd like to point out that I'm not bashing the work being done by Hedvig and Sebastian and other people. I just wanted to point out that this document IMHO is problematic if used as a regulating structure in an organization, mainly because of it being contrary to anarchy as well as a hinderance in daily business due to admin overhead bloat. It is however necessary, sufficient and excellent as a document to give to authorities that accept nothing that is not a copy of their own templates for how an association should function.
I think I could attend most of the times suggested.
Regards.
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Hedvig Skirgård <hedvig.skirg...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hello.all members of the Abbenay Hackspace emaillist.
> This is an important message about what Abbenay is and how we are > organised. If you are a member of Abbenay please read this and attend > the summit (AFK or at IRC).
> Certain issues has come up that we need to talk about all together as > a group. Therefore I, as the current administrator, would like to call > for a grand meeting/summit (*stormöte*). In our bylaws (that are being > translated into English very soon) it is stated that we need to notify > all members at least two weeks in advance. Here is a draft by myself, > Sebastian Liem and Google Translate. > http://docs.google.com/View?id=dsst9bb_29386ckgbft . Those of you who > know English and Swedish are very welcome to help.
> Now the bidding starts.Here are times that I can.
> Afternoon of 17 of October > all day 18 of October > Afternoon all day 19 of October > Before 17.30 20 of October > Afternoon & evening 21 October > Evening 22 of October
> Facts:
> This organsation has bylaws which unfurtunately hasn't been translated > into english yet.
> We state in our bylaws that the only goal for this organisation is to > provide a location and tools for it's members. We have made no > political statements as a group. This association consists of > individuals who use the space the association provides for them. These > individuals do not represent Abbenay as a whole unless Abbenay as a > whole has decided this.
> In our bylaws we state that members are those willing to be members > and also accept the bylaws.
> Something I think that we can agree on is that this is an > anarchisticly organised organisation. Having said this I think the > previous statement is extremely problematic that this isn't something > we have discussed at all. Our bylaws state that we are not bound to > any political party, other than that there is no evidence, no decision > that we are in fact a an anarchisticly organised organisation. This is > something I guess we have taken for granted since most active members > are anarchists or have anarchistic tendencies.
> Taking things for granted is not good. And not having told new members > of the emaillist about our bylaws or the anarchism is not good either.
> The issues we have to discuss are these:
> We must decide on a form for how we make decisions as a group. Do we > even want to make statements as a group? Is a decision taken when > nobody objects? What happens when someone does object? In our bylaws > it says that "big decisions" are taken on summits and with simple > majority vote, what are big decisions?
> Do we need to agree on some kind of policy about what is okay and what is > not?
> I like to do stuff. > I have not disagreed with anything discussed on this list so far. > But we need to be crystal clear, there can be no misconceptions!
> Please write dates that suit you here, CLEARLY mind you.
> I suggest that while we can have a discussion here on the list about > the the above issues we should leave the main discussion for the > summit and not let it take up all time for the workshop on saturday.
Albin Stjerna wrote: > Consider me sufficiently motivated. :) Is anyone else interested, or should I > give up? Maybe it’s just my google phobia showing.
> /Albin
I've had problems with Google Goups too, so I'd rather use the list on eval.nu.
> Albin Stjerna wrote: > > Consider me sufficiently motivated. :) Is anyone else interested, or should I > > give up? Maybe it’s just my google phobia showing.
> > /Albin > I've had problems with Google Goups too, so I'd rather use the list on > eval.nu.
Of course, we could move the MX record (or just redirect mail I suppose) and use something like li...@abbenay.org or something similar if desired. I’m somewhat limited in configuration options, since I don’t have full control over the server, though.
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 12:05:08AM +0200, Albin Stjerna wrote:
> At Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:50:22 +0200, > scorch wrote:
> > Albin Stjerna wrote: > > > Consider me sufficiently motivated. :) Is anyone else interested, or should I > > > give up? Maybe it’s just my google phobia showing.
> > > /Albin > > I've had problems with Google Goups too, so I'd rather use the list on > > eval.nu.
> Of course, we could move the MX record (or just redirect mail I suppose) and use > something like li...@abbenay.org or something similar if desired. I’m somewhat > limited in configuration options, since I don’t have full control over the > server, though.
I would really prefer using a proper mailinglist instead of google groups as well.
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Gabriel Fornaeus <gforna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 12:05:08AM +0200, Albin Stjerna wrote:
>> At Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:50:22 +0200, >> scorch wrote:
>> > Albin Stjerna wrote: >> > > Consider me sufficiently motivated. :) Is anyone else interested, or should I >> > > give up? Maybe it’s just my google phobia showing.
>> > > /Albin >> > I've had problems with Google Goups too, so I'd rather use the list on >> > eval.nu.
>> Of course, we could move the MX record (or just redirect mail I suppose) and use >> something like li...@abbenay.org or something similar if desired. I’m somewhat >> limited in configuration options, since I don’t have full control over the >> server, though. > I would really prefer using a proper mailinglist instead of google > groups as well.
OFF-TOPIC Where the mailing list resides is (hopefully) not an important topic about the future of Abbeney. It is probably best discussed it in another, separate, thread. EOOT
Regarding the actual topic. I don't really see the point of the document at hand. I have been organised in various ways and, from my point of view, the only point of such a document is to make all the rules clear for all members (and future members).
Also, since there are no real finances involved I don't see any point at all of having the proposed structure. (As a comment I can say that I am involved in an organisation handling lots of money and people's trust in a stringent way, without such a structure.)
I just wonder why there is a need for such a document? My experience is that it is very common in Sweden to create loads of bureaucracy instead of actually doing something. For a network such as Abbeney, I, as stated above, don't see the point of bureaucracy. Why the need for formalities, when we can just meet and hack?
Should harmful informal power structures appear, then a document regulating formal power structures is a good idea and maybe even necessary. Before that, it is neither.
On Saturday 03 October 2009 19:06:40 Per Andersson wrote:
> I just wonder why there is a need for such a document? My experience is > that it is very common in Sweden to create loads of bureaucracy instead of > actually doing something.
Ahah, true :)
> For a network such as Abbeney, I, as stated > above, don't see the point of bureaucracy. Why the need for formalities, > when we can just meet and hack?
I totally agree with you. However, it seems that some people wanted to apply for funding at some institutions, and for this having some bureaucracy (ie: be a formal non-profit organization) might help.
> On Saturday 03 October 2009 19:06:40 Per Andersson wrote: >> I just wonder why there is a need for such a document? My experience is >> that it is very common in Sweden to create loads of bureaucracy instead of >> actually doing something.
> Ahah, true :)
>> For a network such as Abbeney, I, as stated >> above, don't see the point of bureaucracy. Why the need for formalities, >> when we can just meet and hack?
> I totally agree with you. However, it seems that some people wanted to apply > for funding at some institutions, and for this having some bureaucracy (ie: be > a formal non-profit organization) might help.
