Is the doctrine of HELL based on fear?

Gil Smith

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96

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I believe, after having read the bible, that Hell must be a place of
such incredible eternal torment that no one could possibly 'choose 'to
go there . They do choose however by ignoring God's word (the Bible),
not realizing the eternal implications. No human mind can imagine how
terrible Hell must be. It's real. Not understanding on a human level
WHY it exists doesn't take away from the fact of it's existence.
Gary Parkinson <Ppa...@mail.io.org> wrote:

>Daniel Stern wrote:
>>
>> J. Michael Phillips (wiz...@eskimo.com) wrote:
>>
>> : It doesn't? Why is that? I'm curious - Why do you think that Hell is
>> : "revenge" or "punishment?" I'm not convinced that either of these
>> : descriptions fit with scriptures. It is a place. Some people go
>> : there, some don't. All those who go there (scripturally) choose
>> : themselves to go there. No one is forced against his will (as near as
>> : I can tell).
>>
>> Please give me the name of *one* person who decided of his own free will
>> to go to hell forever.
>>
>> Also, you might want to ask yourself what is the use of punishing the
>> dead????
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Shout for joy to the LORD, all the earth.
>> Worship the LORD with gladness;
>> come before Him with joyful songs.
>> Know that the LORD is God.
>> It is He who made us, and not we ourselves;
>> we are His people, the sheep of His pasture.
>> Enter His gates with thanksgiving
>> and His courts with praise;
>> give thanks to Him and praise His name.
>> For the LORD is good and His love endures *FOREVER*;
>> His faithfulness continues through all generations.

>Gary Parkinson par...@io.org writes:

>The Bible teaches that God is a very loving God and that He is to be
>feared. The love of God has been expressed and experienced and portrayed
>through a multitude of Bible characters for everyone to learn about.

>God created us in His image to love and enjoy a wonderful life in a union
>with Him. Apart from that union, life can be a very miserable,
>confusing experience. God provides laws or rules as does every loving
>parent for their children to safeguard and maximize their potential for a
>fruitful, happy and productive life; not to hinder their lives.

>Because man chooses to ignore God's invitation to know Him and live
>according to His laws is not God's fault. When a parent warns a child
>that he will probably get hurt or killed if he plays on the road, the
>fear that parent is trying to instill in the child is for the child's
>good and stems from the parent's love for the child. If the parent could
>be assured in some way that the child would not go near the road, perhaps
>it would be okay to not educate the child on the hazards of roads at that
>time.

>A responsible parent or leader would normally always provide information
>of the consequences of various actions so the child can keep things in
>perspective and make right, intelligent choices. By witholding
>information about negative consequences or "fear" as some may call it,
>one is not being responsible to help someone protect themselves and make
>right choices.

>Jesus Christ mentions hell in the New Testament many more times than
>Heaven. This is done to completely inform us of the seriousness of the
>choice which is made by everyone. That is to accept His salvation through
>His payment of our sin by His suffering, death, burial and resurrection,
>or reject His salvation. Its so clear.

>Now if after reading the Bible someone cannot figure out that God is a
>very loving God, then they must also weigh what is meant by being
>separated from God. On earth man is not totally separated from God and
>unsaved people do not understand this. All people can enjoy the blessings
>which God has given us in a beautiful country to live in, good jobs, good
>food to eat. Of course people and nations enjoy more or less of God's
>blessing according to how much that person or nation esteems God. God
>does take care of His own, but has no obligations to those that are not
>His until they ask Him to make them His. Unsaved man is separated from
>God spiritually from birth. However eternal separation is the destiny of
>someone that rejects Jesus Christ for his entire life. And God only
>created a few places to exist. There's Heaven which is God's Holy Place,
>there's earth which is man's opportunity to know God and accept Him on
>His terms, and there's hell which is total separation from God's goodness
>to man. There's no purgatory mentioned in God's Word, no halfway house
>where we can still have a chance or some hope.

>So to answer the question, no, hell is not based or founded upon fear. It
>is simply the place souls live consciously forever if they don't for some
>really strange reason want to live with God, for God and according to His
>ways.

>Its an easy and obvious decision.

>"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His
>mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the
>Holy Ghost;
>Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;"
>Titus 3:5,6

>God Bless!

Gil Smith

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96

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No one , in my opinion, could possibly 'choose' to go to Hell if they
had the slightest idea of the torment involved. God's word ( the
Bible) says it's eternal punishment for those who 'choose' not to
follow Him. Who are we to argue? g...@cdsnet.net

Lloyd Zusman

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96

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On Sun, 10 Nov 1996 19:04:01 GMT, Gil Smith <G...@cdsnet.net> wrote:
>
> I believe, after having read the bible, that Hell must be a place of
> such incredible eternal torment that no one could possibly 'choose 'to
> go there . They do choose however by ignoring God's word (the Bible),
> not realizing the eternal implications. No human mind can imagine how
> terrible Hell must be. It's real. Not understanding on a human level
> WHY it exists doesn't take away from the fact of it's existence.
> Gary Parkinson <Ppa...@mail.io.org> wrote:

I'm at a loss to find passages in the Bible which describe hell as
a place of "incredible eternal torment". Could you please supply
the chapter/verse references of the places in the Bible where you read
this?

Thanks in advance.

--
Lloyd Zusman 01234567 <-- The world famous Indent-o-Meter.
l...@asfast.com ^ Indent or be indented.

johnnygalt

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96

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Hell is a school from which all shall graduate. Why? Because God loves
us. Because God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son to
redeem it. Because he gave all men into the charge of his son, who said
that not one of whom the father had given him would be lost.
We as sinners are all eternally damned in Jesus work on the cross. We are
likewise all born again in his resurrection. This is not apparent now, but
will be when the kingdom which has already been established is revealed.
Then we shall see the true shape of things.
You proud Christians are going to have to learn to live in a very strange
new world. A world where love truly reigns. A world of light where
judgment and mercy flow freely. A world where unending torture is
unthinkable, because it is unnecessary.
Another way of saying it is that hell is a hospital.

George H. Pink

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96

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"Kevin." <str...@supernet.ab.ca> wrote:

>Kelley Maylor <simp...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
><3294D1...@earthlink.net>...
>> Jack King wrote:
>> >
>> > : Malcolm Fraser wrote:
>> > : >
>> > : > The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -
>> > : > depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all
>sorts

I believe it is based on truth.. but in a different way, then
mentioned. The truth is that Heaven and Hell is a place
called Earth [Belinda Carlyle] Boy she took a couple of
lessons from Jesus I suspect!!

It is all a matter of perception. For some, the ones that
commit suicide... I am sure they feel this life and what
they are going through is pure hell. Some of the destitute
people on this Earth will also feel tha it is this way.

On the other hand... it is our own garden planet of Eden.
It is whatever we choose it to be, because of free will. And Jesus
noted that we were taking the wrong path. So did the Hopi
indians.. and so did budha... but I still believe we miss
the message completely.

Karen McFarlin

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Nov 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/16/96

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In article <5658vg$2...@news.cdsnet.net>, G...@cdsnet.net (Gil Smith) wrote:

> No one , in my opinion, could possibly 'choose' to go to Hell if they
> had the slightest idea of the torment involved. God's word ( the
> Bible) says it's eternal punishment for those who 'choose' not to
> follow Him. Who are we to argue? g...@cdsnet.net
>
> Gary Parkinson <Ppa...@mail.io.org> wrote:
>

If what you say above is true, then the doctrine of hell is based on
vindictiveness. Hardly the reaction of a perfect being (God). I cannot
follow a God that is less moral than I am. (Sartre)

Cairns

Libertarius

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Nov 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/16/96

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In <karen-16119...@206.245.192.42> ka...@snowcrest.net (Karen

McFarlin) writes:
>
>In article <5658vg$2...@news.cdsnet.net>, G...@cdsnet.net (Gil Smith)
wrote:
>

>> No one , in my opinion, could possibly 'choose' to go to Hell if
they
>> had the slightest idea of the torment involved. God's word ( the
>> Bible) says it's eternal punishment for those who 'choose' not to
>> follow Him. Who are we to argue? g...@cdsnet.net
>>
>> Gary Parkinson <Ppa...@mail.io.org> wrote:
>>

>If what you say above is true, then the doctrine of hell is based on
>vindictiveness. Hardly the reaction of a perfect being (God). I cannot
>follow a God that is less moral than I am. (Sartre)
>
>Cairns

Sounds to me like you have two different definitions of what you
mean by "God".

Libertarius

Jerry

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Nov 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/16/96

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Karen McFarlin wrote:
>
> In article <5658vg$2...@news.cdsnet.net>, G...@cdsnet.net (Gil Smith) wrote:
>

> > No one , in my opinion, could possibly 'choose' to go to Hell if they
> > had the slightest idea of the torment involved. God's word ( the
> > Bible) says it's eternal punishment for those who 'choose' not to
> > follow Him. Who are we to argue? g...@cdsnet.net
> >
> > Gary Parkinson <Ppa...@mail.io.org> wrote:
> >

> If what you say above is true, then the doctrine of hell is based on
> vindictiveness. Hardly the reaction of a perfect being (God). I cannot
> follow a God that is less moral than I am. (Sartre)
>
> Cairns

Comments from Jerry:
The worst man will ever see is what he sees right now. The worst torture he will ever
feel isw what he has felt. Jean Paul Sartre is absolutely correct. The God of the
Universe is the creative intelligence within the Universe in all dimensions. This
intelligence is never vindictive. The worst a man has to face is death or life anew.
There is no terror in death. The pit of hell merely erases you from memory rapidly
and painlessly. If you don't want to live again, then you will not be forced to go
on. The processes for the production of man are harsh as we move upward from the
animal but as our intelligence increases we stand in safety before the ethical God
of law, love, and truth. God can slay us but not cannot torture us.

Andrew Gawrys

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Nov 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/17/96

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Gary, I'm just writing this in appreciation for the explanation of Hell
you gave. It was very well written, and I have just recently been born
again, and it cleared up some points to which I was thinking of. Thank
you. Praise the Lord!
In article <5658vg$2...@news.cdsnet.net>, G...@cdsnet.net€ says...

Mark Foster

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Nov 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/18/96

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In article <karen-16119...@206.245.192.42>, ka...@snowcrest.net (Karen McFarlin) says:

>
>In article <5658vg$2...@news.cdsnet.net>, G...@cdsnet.net (Gil Smith) wrote:
>
>> No one , in my opinion, could possibly 'choose' to go to Hell if they
>> had the slightest idea of the torment involved. God's word ( the
>> Bible) says it's eternal punishment for those who 'choose' not to
>> follow Him. Who are we to argue? g...@cdsnet.net
>>
>> Gary Parkinson <Ppa...@mail.io.org> wrote:
>>

>If what you say above is true, then the doctrine of hell is based on
>vindictiveness. Hardly the reaction of a perfect being (God). I cannot
>follow a God that is less moral than I am. (Sartre)
>
>Cairns

The doctrine of HELL is sadly unbiblical. That is not to say the grave
and the pit are not real, just very different than the cartoon fantasy
that has been portrayed over the years. There are quite a few ministries
that prove, by the Word of God, just how un-Christian the doctrine of HELL
really is. In my opinion, it is one of the most destructive heresies ever
to enter into the church, and has caused more people to turn away from the
Gospel than anything else. Please check out some of the sites I list
here, and judge for yourself.

http://www.cadvision.com/reconciliation/index.html or other sites
http://members.aol.com/ancienpath/ancienp.html
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles.html#univ
http://www.datasync.com/allinall/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3413/
http://www.serve.com/ABC/
http://www.kensco.net/~thinkle/tentmakr/index.shtml

1 Timothy 4:9-11 Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal
acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because
we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of
ALL mankind, and especially of believers (not only). Command this
and teach this.

Mark Foster

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Nov 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/18/96

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In article <Edina1996Nov1...@oasis.idirect.com.compulink.com>, ag...@idirect.com (Andrew Gawrys) says:
>
>Gary, I'm just writing this in appreciation for the explanation of Hell
>you gave. It was very well written, and I have just recently been born
>again, and it cleared up some points to which I was thinking of. Thank
>you. Praise the Lord!
> In article <5658vg$2...@news.cdsnet.net>, G...@cdsnet.net€ says...

Dear Andrew;
That aversion you have to the concept of eternal hell for some
is the Anointing of God. You are blessed to see it for what it is, carnal
and very un-biblical. There are quite a few ministries that examine the
falicy of the doctrine of hell, you may want to check some of them out.
God bless you, and may God the Father, "give you a spirit of wisdom and
penetration through an intimate knowledge of Him, the eyes of your
understanding being enlightened so that you may know what is the hope
which His call to you inspires, what the wealth of the glory of His
inheritance in God's people,and what the transcendent greatness of His
power in us believers as seen in the working of His infinite might when
He displayed it in Christ by raising Him from the dead and seating Him
at His own right hand in the heavenly realms, high above all other
government and authority and power and dominion, and every title of
sovereignty used either in this Age or in the Age to come. God has put
all things under His feet, and has appointed Him universal and supreme
Head of the Church, which is His Body, the completeness of Him who
everywhere fills the universe with Himself." (Eph 1:17-23)

http://www.cadvision.com/reconciliation/index.html

http://members.aol.com/ancienpath/ancienp.html
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles.html#univ
http://www.datasync.com/allinall/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3413/
http://www.serve.com/ABC/
http://www.kensco.net/~thinkle/tentmakr/index.shtml

God bless
<>< Mark Foster ><>

Fr. John W. Morris

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Nov 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/18/96

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Karen McFarlin <ka...@snowcrest.net> wrote in article
<karen-16119...@206.245.192.42>...

> >
> If what you say above is true, then the doctrine of hell is based on
> vindictiveness. Hardly the reaction of a perfect being (God). I cannot
> follow a God that is less moral than I am. (Sartre)
>

Fr. John W. Morris responds:

God is a God of justice. There are those who deliberately chose a life of
rebellion against Him. Therefore God is just and honors their choice. God
sends no one to hell. People send themselves to hell by the misuse of their
free will.

Fr. John +

Tom Royer

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Nov 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/19/96

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In article <01bbd512$09489560$31f6...@cannet.com.jrjohn>, "Fr. John W.
Morris" <jrj...@cannet.com> wrote:

But God, being omniscient, knows ahead of time how people will choose to
exercise their free will, right?

--
Tom Royer

"If you're not free to fail, you're not free." - - Gene Burns

MITRE might be better off if I spoke for them, but, unfortunately for them, they've elected not to find out.

Jerry

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Nov 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/19/96

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Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
>
> Karen McFarlin <ka...@snowcrest.net> wrote in article
> <karen-16119...@206.245.192.42>...
> > >
> > If what you say above is true, then the doctrine of hell is based on
> > vindictiveness. Hardly the reaction of a perfect being (God). I cannot
> > follow a God that is less moral than I am. (Sartre)
> >
> Fr. John W. Morris responds:
>
> God is a God of justice. There are those who deliberately chose a life of
> rebellion against Him. Therefore God is just and honors their choice. God
> sends no one to hell. People send themselves to hell by the misuse of their
> free will.
>
> Fr. John +

Comments from Jerry:
Such would be the policy of an unethical God. Fortunately no such unethical God
exists anywhere in the universe.
Jerry (Jewish Prophet of an Ethcial God)

Chris Veal

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Nov 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/19/96

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On 18 Nov 1996, Fr. John W. Morris wrote:

>
>
> Karen McFarlin <ka...@snowcrest.net> wrote in article
> <karen-16119...@206.245.192.42>...
> > >
> > If what you say above is true, then the doctrine of hell is based on
> > vindictiveness. Hardly the reaction of a perfect being (God). I cannot
> > follow a God that is less moral than I am. (Sartre)
> >
> Fr. John W. Morris responds:
>
> God is a God of justice. There are those who deliberately chose a life of
> rebellion against Him. Therefore God is just and honors their choice. God
> sends no one to hell. People send themselves to hell by the misuse of their
> free will.

I don't know how you could possibly believe in free will. Decisions are
not free from your experiences.

Malcolm Fraser

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Nov 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/20/96

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The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -
depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts

of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.

Hell, in its most basic definitive form, is "seperation from God".
There are countless arguments flying around as to the physical,
literal, and interpretational aspects of Hell, but I'm not going to
get into them because they're not really relevant here.

"Hell", as such, is not currently inhabited. It is a place "prepared
for the devil and his angels" and where God will send all those who
reject Him, into a place of "everlasting punishment." (Ref: Matthew
25:41,46) The main point here is that God does not, in fact, actively
punish anyone. Only people who have consciously rejected Jesus and
refused to follow Him will end up in "Hell", because, yes, they had
free choice in the matter and chose not to accept God's forgiveness.
Therefore, in effect, they have chosen to live seperately from God -
which is "Hell." The idea of eternal suffering and punishment is
simply a consequence of that circumstance, rather than vindictiveness
or revenge or nastiness on God's part.

The term "Hell" is not really the issue here. It doesn't matter what
you want to call it. The fact is that such a place exists and that
anyone who does not follow Jesus (as the ONLY way to God the Father)
will be going there of their own free will. The fact that, in His
omniscience, God knows what people are going to decide before they
actually do it, doesn't actually take away their freedom of choice.
Most of the stupid arguments on this point are caused by people who
don't understand the real scriptural concept of predestination -
usually because they like to have their own ideas about something and
then twist and interpret the scriptures to suit themselves.

It's really very simple. Nobody HAS to go to Hell. God hasn't chosen
some to be saved and some to suffer for eternity. All God has done,
through the sacrifice of Jesus, is given us a choice. Either follow
Jesus and be saved, or reject Jesus and perish (Ref: John 3:16). It's
not difficult to understand and the Bible as a whole is very clear on
this. Oh yes, people can twist round individual bits of scripture to
prove whatever they want, but read ALL the references with an
understanding of the BIG picture and a real knowledge of God, and you
can't miss it.

Does fear come into it? Of course it does. Only an idiot wouldn't be
afraid of going to "Hell" if they knew what it was really going to be
like. A friend of mine (a non-believer) says that he's going to enjoy
Hell because there will probably be beer and women there - and he
thinks Heaven will be "boring". These, of course, are his own ideas of
"Heaven" and "Hell" and have nothing to do with reality. I mean, if
that's what he wants to believe, then fine. He's perfectly entitled to
his beliefs, just as I am to mine. But there's no point engaging in a
discussion with him about "Hell" because we're not going to be talking
about the same thing. In his terms, I'm going to "Heaven" where it
will be so boring it will be like eternal punishment, and he's going
to "Hell" where there will be beer and women and he'll be able to
enjoy himself for ever. In actual fact, we believe pretty much the
same things, but he's just switched the words round to make himself
feel better - so that he can do what he wants and still go to his idea
of heaven, and I slave away at being a Christian and end up in his
idea of hell. The whole argument certainly suits him perfectly, but is
totally the opposite of what scripture teaches. (Ref: Matthew 7:13)

And as for all these so-called Christians who teach that there's
really no such things as Hell, no such thing as eternal punishment,
and everybody's going to be saved and live happily ever after. Well,
they're just as bad, if not worse, than non-believers. "The doctrine
of Hell is based on fear, it deceives Christians, it's heretical and
damaging to the church," they say, "It's really not based on scripture
at all." Obviously, they've been reading a different Bible.

* No-one's going to Hell? Everyone will be saved? Well, that's alright
then, isn't it! Great! I'm so glad I found out! Here was me trying to
commit myself to God and follow Jesus, live in the Spirit and obey
God's word (Ref: 1John 1:6 / John 14:21), thinking that Jesus had died
for my sins and I had to believe in Him in order to be saved. How
stupid of me! Actually, I don't have to any of that stuff at all. In
fact, I don't even have to follow Jesus or even believe that He
exists. I can just do whatever I want for my entire life, and then
when the time comes God will somehow see to it that I end up in Heaven
anyway - because, after all, He's a God of love, isn't he? Actually, I
don't even have to WANT to be saved, because God's going to save me
whether I like it or not! *

If this wasn't such a tragic deception, it would be laughable. How
anyone can take such a view seriously in the first place, let alone
try to prove that it's scriptural, is beyond me. The simple fact is
that anyone who spouts this rubbish is NOT a Christian or, at the very
least, not living like one. Now, I realise that there are probably
going to be people who take dreadful offense at that statement, and
they can if they want to. They might accuse me of having an attitude
that lacks love, and they can do that too. They might accuse me of
being judgemental, and they'd be absolutely right. They're entitled to
their opinion. I, however, am equally entitled to mine.)

The problem with Christianity today is that there aren't enough
Christians in it. There are, however, plenty of wishy-washy,
half-hearted, self-centred opinionists who call themselves Christians
and give Christianity a bad name. (Ref: Revelation ?:????) Everybody
wants things their own way, even Christianity. Being a real Christian
is extremely difficult and sometimes extremely painful and takes real
commitment, real perseverence, and real SACRIFICE - which is not to
say that it isn't peaceful and happy and fun as well, don't get me
wrong. But most people simply want the peace and the happiness,
without any of the other stuff. So they simply change the rules to
suit themselves. And when they do this, they cease to become
Christians. Oh, they still believe in Jesus alright, but only in the
sense that they "believe" he exists, usually for their convenience.
The real question is whether they're "following" Jesus or not. Even
Satan and his demons "believe" that Jesus exists and that he's alive
today, but they don't "follow" Him. Look up the Greek word for
"believe" in the scriptures and you'll find that it means much more
than just "believing" in the someone or something's existence.

I'll probably be accused of being judgemental here. I'm not, however,
passing judgement on anyone. I'm simply stating scriptural facts. If
anyone wants to be offended by this, then that's their problem. Flame
me, if you want. But if anyone wants to argue with me, they'd better
include solid scriptural backing and understanding, otherwise they'll
be going straight in the Trash can.

Rather than adding to the quota of pointless and non-constructive
arguments that already fill these newsgroups, however, why not just go
away and study the subject for yourself. Nobody should take my word
for anything, any more than they should take the word of anyone else
who's posted an article here. "Work out your own salvation", but don't
forget the second part of that verse - "in fear and trembling." Study
in respect and submission to God's will and God's word - and NOT with
your own hidden agenda - and God will reveal the truth. And don't
forget to use the common sense that God gave you.

To conclude, I'd like to apologise if my tone has sounded arrogant at
times. This is a common problem with me, and one that I'm struggling
to deal with. The arrogance is not intended and simply arises because
of the strong feelings I have for the subjects I write about. And this
is not an excuse, its an explanation. What's written here is written
in love, whether you chose to believe that or not.

I always welcome any constructive criticism or scriptural arguments.

In Jesus Name,

-- Malcolm Fraser
mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk

Jerry

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Nov 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/20/96

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Malcolm Fraser wrote:
>
> The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -
> depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts
> of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
> been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
> doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.
>

> Comments from Jerry: The concept of Hell is unethical. Look around at the beauty and love of the creation
and ask yourself if the God that created so much harmony and beauty is such an evil
monster.The Greeks brought man Gods to mankind. They lived forever. Zoroaster brought
the concept of eternal life to mankind in paradise. The downside was that for the few
who enjoyed the good life, the majority suffered eternal hell. What an unethical God
that rewards the few and harms the many greatly.
Christians are stuck with the devil. They are stuck with the pit of hell. They
are stuck with an unethical God of love that tortures nearly everyone forever. The
arrogant vanity of those who preach hell to their fellow man. They will achieve the
Kingdom of Heaven and all others who don't follow their special way will be tortured
forever. It is unethical and untrue. It is just false Zoroastrian concepts which were
put into the Gosples to enslave thd cripple the minds of the masses of mankind. Thus
the dear Christians are all guilty of preaching mental illness to their children and
to the ignorant who believe such stupid nonsense.
Jerry (Jewish Prophet of an Ethical God)

Malcolm Fraser

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Nov 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/20/96

to

fos...@cadvision.com (Mark Foster) wrote:

>The doctrine of HELL is sadly unbiblical. That is not to say the grave
>and the pit are not real, just very different than the cartoon fantasy
>that has been portrayed over the years. There are quite a few ministries
>that prove, by the Word of God, just how un-Christian the doctrine of HELL
>really is. In my opinion, it is one of the most destructive heresies ever
>to enter into the church, and has caused more people to turn away from the
>Gospel than anything else. Please check out some of the sites I list
>here, and judge for yourself.

>http://www.cadvision.com/reconciliation/index.html or other sites

>http://members.aol.com/ancienpath/ancienp.html
>http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles.html#univ
>http://www.datasync.com/allinall/
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3413/
>http://www.serve.com/ABC/
>http://www.kensco.net/~thinkle/tentmakr/index.shtml

>1 Timothy 4:9-11 Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal

>acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because
>we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of
>ALL mankind, and especially of believers (not only). Command this
>and teach this.

Mark -

Your use of 1 Timothy 4:9-11, I assume in an attempt to back up your
argument, suggests to me that you have a certain lack in your
knowledge and understanding of the scriptures. (That comment is not
intended to be offensive, but merely a statement of my opinion.)

Jesus IS the saviour of ALL mankind, because He died for EVERYBODY and
took the sins of the WORLD upon Himself. That simply means that Jesus
died to save EVERYONE - to give EVERYONE the chance of forgiveness and
reconcilliation with the Father - it does not imply a general
salvation regardless of individual free choice. Jesus said "He that
believeth in me shall be saved." - look up the Greek meaning of the
word "believeth" in this context. Jesus IS the saviour of ALL mankind,
but not ALL mankind will accept His salvation. Therefore, He is
especially the Saviour of the "believers", because they are the ones
who "believe" in Him and actually accept His position as Saviour. Any
other explanation makes a mockery out of what He went through on the
cross.

I find your suggestion that the doctrine of Hell is "sadly
unbiblical" to be utterly ludicrous and would very much like to find
out exactly what kind of "ministries" you base these wild statements
on - and exactly how they go about providing their "proof, from the
Word of God". I would also like some explanation as to how these
"ministries" justify doing away with the doctrine of Hell as
constructive to Christianity.

I'll certainly be investigating the Web sites you've listed.

Malcolm Fraser

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Nov 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/21/96

to

Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net> wrote:

>Malcolm Fraser wrote:
>>
>> The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -
>> depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts
>> of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
>> been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
>> doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.
>>

>> Comments from Jerry: The concept of Hell is unethical. Look around at the beauty and love of the creation
>and ask yourself if the God that created so much harmony and beauty is such an evil
>monster.The Greeks brought man Gods to mankind. They lived forever. Zoroaster brought
>the concept of eternal life to mankind in paradise. The downside was that for the few
>who enjoyed the good life, the majority suffered eternal hell. What an unethical God
>that rewards the few and harms the many greatly.
> Christians are stuck with the devil. They are stuck with the pit of hell. They
>are stuck with an unethical God of love that tortures nearly everyone forever. The
>arrogant vanity of those who preach hell to their fellow man. They will achieve the
>Kingdom of Heaven and all others who don't follow their special way will be tortured
>forever. It is unethical and untrue. It is just false Zoroastrian concepts which were
>put into the Gosples to enslave thd cripple the minds of the masses of mankind. Thus
>the dear Christians are all guilty of preaching mental illness to their children and
>to the ignorant who believe such stupid nonsense.
>Jerry (Jewish Prophet of an Ethical God)

Jerry -

Excuse me, but did you actually read the whole of my article? Or did
you just get as far as the first paragraph before writing this
rubbish?
I've nothing against you disagreeing with me, and I've nothing against
you arguing with me either. But at least argue with me on the basis of
the points which I actually made! It's very easy just to have your
position and stick to it, constantly regurgitating the same blurb over
and over again - politicians do it all the time whenever a journalist
asks them an awkward question. But it's much more difficult to come up
with a real argument with real backing for your points. Why not try it
sometime?
Like I said, if you can't challenge me with logical arguments backed
up with scripture, then don't waste your time.
Any Christian with their head screwed on the right way and the ability
to think for themselves isn't going to take any notice of the kind of
unfounded ramblings that are frequently presented in these newsgroups.
They're quite entitled to, of course, but on their own head be it.

Get back to me if you want to have a PROPER debate. Like, with actual
points logical arguments and scriptural backing and that kind of
thing.

Jack King

unread,

Nov 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/21/96

to

: Malcolm Fraser wrote:
: >
: > The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -

: > depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts
: > of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
: > been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
: > doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.

: >

Nope. There are a few isolated passages (e.g. the Lake of Fire) which
if taken out of context can be made to mean just about anything. But
a God of love would not torture his children for 5 minutes, let alone
eternity.

Jack

Kelley Maylor

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Nov 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/21/96

to

Jack King wrote:
>
> : Malcolm Fraser wrote:
> : >

> : > The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -

> : > depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts
> : > of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
> : > been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
> : > doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.

> : >
>
> Nope. There are a few isolated passages (e.g. the Lake of Fire) which
> if taken out of context can be made to mean just about anything. But
> a God of love would not torture his children for 5 minutes, let alone
> eternity.
>
> Jack

Jack,

God does NOT send people to Hell. People who reject God go to Hell.
People who reject God are, in a sense, sending themselves to Hell.
Salvation is a gift, and you are completely free to choose NOT to accept
this gift. Hopefully this can shed some light on this subject.
Take care, and God Bless,
Kel

Kevin.

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Nov 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/23/96

to

Kelley Maylor <simp...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<3294D1...@earthlink.net>...

> Jack King wrote:
> >
> > : Malcolm Fraser wrote:
> > : >

> > : > The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -

> > : > depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all
sorts
> > : > of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have
already
> > : > been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that
it
> > : > doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.

> > : >
> >
> > Nope. There are a few isolated passages (e.g. the Lake of Fire) which
> > if taken out of context can be made to mean just about anything. But
> > a God of love would not torture his children for 5 minutes, let alone
> > eternity.
> >
> > Jack
> Jack,
>
> God does NOT send people to Hell. People who reject God go to Hell.
> People who reject God are, in a sense, sending themselves to Hell.
> Salvation is a gift, and you are completely free to choose NOT to accept
> this gift. Hopefully this can shed some light on this subject.
> Take care, and God Bless,
> Kel
>

Hell fire. The devil has found in this topic considerable fuel for his
twisted schemes to malign the character of God. In presenting hell as an
eternal place of torment for the unsaved he has effected two equally
disastrous outcomes: 1) the creation of atheists, and; 2) christians who
know nothing of the love and justice of God, but are serving him out of
unmitigated fear. The latter will find themselves in a state no better
than the first, for a "fire-escape" religion is useless. Is it a service
of love?

The bible is clear on this topic. I would like to return in a couple of
days and discuss it further with those who care to grow with me in the
study of the character of God and a correct interpretation of His word.
Until then, let me leave a few references to ponder:

1) Romans 6:23 -- For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2) Psalm 37:9,10, 20 -- For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that
wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little
while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt
diligently consider his place, and it shall not be....But the wicked
shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs:
they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

3) Malachi 4:1 -- For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an
oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be
stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith
the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them
neither root nor branch.

Is hell burning now?

4) Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 -- For the living know that they shall die: but
the dead know
not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory
of them is
forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is
now perished;
neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is
done under
the sun.

This only opens the door and I've barely scratched the surface. Next time
I would like to share some more that I've found in my studies of this topic
and perhaps take a look at how the Bible deals with the concept of
"forever". We must dig a little deeper and look at how the writer in his
language and culture understood things.

3)

Lloyd Zusman

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Nov 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/23/96

to

On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:03:56 -0800, Kelley Maylor <simp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> [ ... ]

>
> God does NOT send people to Hell. People who reject God go to Hell.
> People who reject God are, in a sense, sending themselves to Hell.
> Salvation is a gift, and you are completely free to choose NOT to accept
> this gift. Hopefully this can shed some light on this subject.

But who is it who *created* Hell? Did Hell spring up on its own? Did
God create Hell? Did humans create Hell? Or what ... ???

What is your belief about who it is who created the rule that states
that once you go to Hell, you remain there for an eternity being
tortured? Did God make up that rule? Someone else?

Don't you think that an intelligent, loving God could come up with a
better way to deal with those who don't live up to His standards than
to create a place like Hell and then send these people there for an
eternity to be tortured?

Even *I* could come up with a better system than that, and I'm not
nearly as intelligent or compassionate as God is.

Josh Hughes

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Nov 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/23/96

to

In article <slrn59d1...@sunspot.tiac.net>, l...@asfast.com says...

>
>On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:03:56 -0800, Kelley Maylor <simp...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> God does NOT send people to Hell. People who reject God go to Hell.
>> People who reject God are, in a sense, sending themselves to Hell.
>> Salvation is a gift, and you are completely free to choose NOT to accept
>> this gift. Hopefully this can shed some light on this subject.
>
>But who is it who *created* Hell? Did Hell spring up on its own? Did
>God create Hell? Did humans create Hell? Or what ... ???
>

God created Hell; He created it as a place for those who CHOSE to rebel against
Him (originally Satan and his minion)

>Don't you think that an intelligent, loving God could come up with a
>better way to deal with those who don't live up to His standards than
>to create a place like Hell and then send these people there for an
>eternity to be tortured?

He could have easily come up with just aboutt anything else, but it would not
have followed His purpose. God wants a perfect place in perfect harmony for his
children and creations to live in; if someone or something jeopardizes that
they must leave. We here on earth recieve more thanm adequate chances at
accepting God's personal gift that will remove our rebellious nature (i.e.
salvation thropugh Jesus Christ). If one does not accept this he is in
rebellionb against God! Since God cannot and will not put up with that He
created a place for them (Hell it's in the Bible). Indeed Kelly is right, it is
you who send yourself to Hell (in escence, not God being mean!)

>Even *I* could come up with a better system than that, and I'm not
>nearly as intelligent or compassionate as God is.

If another plan were to be instated it owuldn't be better because God is
perfect and that's what He chose to do.

>--
>Lloyd Zusman 01234567 <-- The world famous Indent-o-Meter.
>l...@asfast.com ^ Indent or be indented.
>

Josh <veng...@loop.com> feel free to email me
<Vengence is the Lord's>

Jack King

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

to

Kelley Maylor (simp...@earthlink.net) wrote:

: God does NOT send people to Hell.

I agree

:People who reject God go to Hell.

Nope. God loves us too much to permit such a thing.

Jack

Jerry

unread,

Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

to

Kelley Maylor wrote:
>
> Jack King wrote:
> >
> > : Malcolm Fraser wrote:
> > : >

> > : > The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -

> > : > depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts
> > : > of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
> > : > been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
> > : > doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.

> > : >
> >
> > Nope. There are a few isolated passages (e.g. the Lake of Fire) which
> > if taken out of context can be made to mean just about anything. But
> > a God of love would not torture his children for 5 minutes, let alone
> > eternity.
> >
> > Jack
> Jack,
>

> God does NOT send people to Hell. People who reject God go to Hell.
> People who reject God are, in a sense, sending themselves to Hell.
> Salvation is a gift, and you are completely free to choose NOT to accept
> this gift. Hopefully this can shed some light on this subject.

> Take care, and God Bless,
> Kel

This is all false arrogant Christian teachings. All religions provide a degree of
salvation for man. The acceptance of Jesus as God is a sin of idolatry. Mohammad
recognized this long ago.The Gentile Churches took a Jewish Prophet of God and
turned him into an idol. To make matter worse everyone went to hell who did not
believe such utter nonsense. Horror upon horrors. What insane minds can come up with.
Look around at the Earth. See thge love and beauty within the creation. Then ask if
any man could enter the pit of hell and burn forever. See the death process. Notice
that the body minimizes pain.And the doctor does the same.The christian God has less
ethics than a doctor. Thus the Christian God concepts are false.They worship a
prophet and preach mental illness and stupid theories which mean nothing at all.

Jerry

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

to

Comments from Jerry:
It is not that God loves all men so much it is that God is ethical.

Jerry

unread,

Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

to

Josh Hughes wrote:
>
> In article <slrn59d1...@sunspot.tiac.net>, l...@asfast.com says...
> >
> >On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:03:56 -0800, Kelley Maylor <simp...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> [ ... ]
> >>

> >> God does NOT send people to Hell. People who reject God go to Hell.
> >> People who reject God are, in a sense, sending themselves to Hell.
> >> Salvation is a gift, and you are completely free to choose NOT to accept
> >> this gift. Hopefully this can shed some light on this subject.
> >

> >But who is it who *created* Hell? Did Hell spring up on its own? Did
> >God create Hell? Did humans create Hell? Or what ... ???
> >
>
> God created Hell; He created it as a place for those who CHOSE to rebel against
> Him (originally Satan and his minion)
>
> >Don't you think that an intelligent, loving God could come up with a
> >better way to deal with those who don't live up to His standards than
> >to create a place like Hell and then send these people there for an
> >eternity to be tortured?
>
> He could have easily come up with just aboutt anything else, but it would not
> have followed His purpose. God wants a perfect place in perfect harmony for his
> children and creations to live in; if someone or something jeopardizes that
> they must leave. We here on earth recieve more thanm adequate chances at
> accepting God's personal gift that will remove our rebellious nature (i.e.

> salvation thropugh Jesus Christ).Comments from Jerry:
The Prophet Jesus is a teacher of higher righteousness and love above the law.
Christians suffer the sin of idolatry against God by making Jesus God. All Christians
should enter the pit of hell for this sin. Fortunately hell is not part of Gods
plan and some Christians attach to the collective Jewish soul via the Prophet Jesus
and thu7s take part in the cosmic reincarnation process which leads them to the new
Earth in the end of days. Lucky God forgives the Christians their transgressions
against God by idol worship.
Jerry (Jewish Prophet of God)

Jerry

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

to

Kevin. wrote:
>
> Kelley Maylor <simp...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
> <3294D1...@earthlink.net>...

> > Jack King wrote:
> > >
> > > : Malcolm Fraser wrote:
> > > : >

> > > : > The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -

> > > : > depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all
> sorts
> > > : > of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have
> already
> > > : > been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that
> it
> > > : > doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.

> > > : >
> > >
> > > Nope. There are a few isolated passages (e.g. the Lake of Fire) which
> > > if taken out of context can be made to mean just about anything. But
> > > a God of love would not torture his children for 5 minutes, let alone
> > > eternity.
> > >
> > > Jack
> > Jack,
> >

> > God does NOT send people to Hell. People who reject God go to Hell.
> > People who reject God are, in a sense, sending themselves to Hell.
> > Salvation is a gift, and you are completely free to choose NOT to accept
> > this gift. Hopefully this can shed some light on this subject.

> > Take care, and God Bless,
> > Kel
> >

> 3)Comments from Jerry:
Within the Bible there is truth and their is falsehood. It takes study to determine
the truth from among the untruth.The Biblwe is written by men and men exist in a chaos
of ideas and concepts. Those principles which stand against an Ethical God are false.
Hell is false. The forgiveness of sins by the Prophet Jesus is false.The trinity is
false. Christianity holds some truth and a lot of falsehoods.

Jerry (Jewish Prophet of an Ethical God)

Free book "The Natural God of Law, LOve, and TRuth"
Paperback from India
<sta...@pilot.infi.net>

Jerry

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

to

Lloyd Zusman wrote:
>
> On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:03:56 -0800, Kelley Maylor <simp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >

> > God does NOT send people to Hell. People who reject God go to Hell.
> > People who reject God are, in a sense, sending themselves to Hell.
> > Salvation is a gift, and you are completely free to choose NOT to accept
> > this gift. Hopefully this can shed some light on this subject.
>

> But who is it who *created* Hell? Did Hell spring up on its own? Did
> God create Hell? Did humans create Hell? Or what ... ???
>

> What is your belief about who it is who created the rule that states
> that once you go to Hell, you remain there for an eternity being
> tortured? Did God make up that rule? Someone else?
>

> Don't you think that an intelligent, loving God could come up with a
> better way to deal with those who don't live up to His standards than
> to create a place like Hell and then send these people there for an
> eternity to be tortured?
>

> Even *I* could come up with a better system than that, and I'm not
> nearly as intelligent or compassionate as God is.
>

> --
> Lloyd Zusman 01234567 <-- The world famous Indent-o-Meter.
> l...@asfast.com ^ Indent or be indented.

Comments from Jerry:
Of course you can. In fact the ethical God of the Universe does not permit any
form of life within the world of the dead. Other than a few minutes of afterglow
as you are processed, death is final. However you remain in the memory of God and
this memroy becomes the basis of your reincarnation here or upon the new Earth as
per Isaiah.Hell is merely a cleaning of God's mind of the evil of human existence.
God suffers the pain of hell as God erases the memory of the evil ones from Gods
mind. The evil ones die as their brain dies.They are gone immediately. The good
ones are processed. Thus you will only experience the love of God in death.You
cannot experience any pain other than the minimum.
The ethics of the God of the Universe demands that our level of Earth God (A fancy
space time computer centered at the center of this Earth) minimize the pain and
suffering of the worst of man to the lowest possible time. Thuys if an evil man
suffers one second more than Godly possible, this Earth is history.There are tough
rules governing evolved man at our level. Any violation especially after the Prophet
Jesus means that all mankind will be destroyed and no one will inherit the new EArth.
Jerry (Jewish Prophet of a very loving and ethical God)

Jerry

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

to

Malcolm Fraser wrote:
>
> Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net> wrote:
>
> >Malcolm Fraser wrote:
> >>

> >> The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -
> >> depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts
> >> of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
> >> been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
> >> doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.
> >>

> >> Comments from Jerry: The concept of Hell is unethical. Look around at the beauty and love of the creation
> >and ask yourself if the God that created so much harmony and beauty is such an evil
> >monster.The Greeks brought man Gods to mankind. They lived forever. Zoroaster brought
> >the concept of eternal life to mankind in paradise. The downside was that for the few
> >who enjoyed the good life, the majority suffered eternal hell. What an unethical God
> >that rewards the few and harms the many greatly.
> > Christians are stuck with the devil. They are stuck with the pit of hell. They
> >are stuck with an unethical God of love that tortures nearly everyone forever. The
> >arrogant vanity of those who preach hell to their fellow man. They will achieve the
> >Kingdom of Heaven and all others who don't follow their special way will be tortured
> >forever. It is unethical and untrue. It is just false Zoroastrian concepts which were
> >put into the Gosples to enslave thd cripple the minds of the masses of mankind. Thus
> >the dear Christians are all guilty of preaching mental illness to their children and
> >to the ignorant who believe such stupid nonsense.

> >Jerry (Jewish Prophet of an Ethical God)
>

> Jerry -
>
> Excuse me, but did you actually read the whole of my article? Or did
> you just get as far as the first paragraph before writing this
> rubbish?
> I've nothing against you disagreeing with me, and I've nothing against
> you arguing with me either. But at least argue with me on the basis of
> the points which I actually made! It's very easy just to have your
> position and stick to it, constantly regurgitating the same blurb over
> and over again - politicians do it all the time whenever a journalist
> asks them an awkward question. But it's much more difficult to come up
> with a real argument with real backing for your points. Why not try it
> sometime?
> Like I said, if you can't challenge me with logical arguments backed
> up with scripture, then don't waste your time.
> Any Christian with their head screwed on the right way and the ability
> to think for themselves isn't going to take any notice of the kind of
> unfounded ramblings that are frequently presented in these newsgroups.
> They're quite entitled to, of course, but on their own head be it.
>
> Get back to me if you want to have a PROPER debate. Like, with actual
> points logical arguments and scriptural backing and that kind of
> thing.
>

> In Jesus Name,
>
> -- Malcolm Fraser
> mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk

Comments from Jerry:
Your scripture is the work of primitive man who thought the Earth was flat and had
no idea of the telescope. It shows the encounters between the mind of man and the
mind of God. However all the rest is mythology. Thus your arguments mean nothing when
one searches for truth. Truth is a difficult process. It takes time and effort. Here
two thousand years after the pagans were taught that the Prophet Jesus died for their
sins, some people still preach and believe this but slowly the pagans are awakening
to the truth that they are responsible for their own sins.Fortunately hell does not
exist except in the tortured minds of the foolish believers in such things.
Jerry (Jewish Prophet of an Ethical God who believes in more than just one book)

Malcolm Fraser

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

to

Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net> wrote:

>Comments from Jerry:
> Your scripture is the work of primitive man who thought the Earth was flat and had
>no idea of the telescope. It shows the encounters between the mind of man and the
>mind of God. However all the rest is mythology. Thus your arguments mean nothing when
>one searches for truth. Truth is a difficult process. It takes time and effort. Here
>two thousand years after the pagans were taught that the Prophet Jesus died for their
>sins, some people still preach and believe this but slowly the pagans are awakening
>to the truth that they are responsible for their own sins.Fortunately hell does not
>exist except in the tortured minds of the foolish believers in such things.
>Jerry (Jewish Prophet of an Ethical God who believes in more than just one book)

Jerry -

You are clearly not a Christian and, therefore, our "playing fields"
are totally different. So it's obviously a complete waste of time
arguing with each other. Especially as you obviously don't have any
actual arguments in the first place, since you seem to rely on simply
attacking everyone else's point of view.

Oh, well.

Love In Christ,

--Malcolm Fraser
mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk

Jerry

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

to

Jack King wrote:
>
> : Malcolm Fraser wrote:
> : >

> : > The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -

> : > depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts
> : > of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
> : > been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
> : > doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.

> : >
>
> Nope. There are a few isolated passages (e.g. the Lake of Fire) which
> if taken out of context can be made to mean just about anything. But
> a God of love would not torture his children for 5 minutes, let alone
> eternity.
>
> Jack

Your are correct Jack. In fact this entire Earth would be destroyed by the God of the
Universe is one man was tortured one second after death beyond that needed to process
and eliminate him from memory rapidly. Thus the most evil men are destroyed at the
time of their death. It usually takes about three minutes for the brain to cease
function at the time of death. Thus the most a man must suffer mental hell is 3
minutes. If he blows up, hell lasts only one second. Anything beyond that degrades
the God of law, love, and truth. Anything beyond that is false.
Jerry (Jewish Prophet of an Ethical God)

Malcolm Fraser

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

to

jack...@alnitak.xylogics.com (Jack King) wrote:

>: Malcolm Fraser wrote:
>: >
>: > The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -

>: > depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts
>: > of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
>: > been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
>: > doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.

>: >

>Nope. There are a few isolated passages (e.g. the Lake of Fire) which
>if taken out of context can be made to mean just about anything. But
>a God of love would not torture his children for 5 minutes, let alone
>eternity.

Jack -

Oh, give me a break with this "God of Love" garbage. It's the same
excuse most non-Christians try to hide behind in their furious
attempts to deny the existence of Hell. Yes, God is definitely a God
of love, but that's not a HUMAN love. God's love is GOD's love. The
problem comes when men and women try to impose their own self-centred
concepts of love onto God.
And, yes, any isolated passages in the Bible can be taken out of
context and be made to prove just about anything. But, taken in the
context of the WHOLE Bible, the truth is always quite clear.
And nobody (well, certainly not me) has even implied the idea that God
actually "tortures his children".
I mean, if you're not even going to give other people's arguments a
chance before you dismiss them and use your own preconceptions to
argue against, then why bother having a debate at all. If you want to
present both sides of the argument yourself, then you'll obviously
win, won't you.

Karen McFarlin

unread,

>Comments from Jerry
> Whether we are atheistic humanists and see the intelligence of the universe as God
>or believers of a Biblical God, we must not forget to look around us and see that man
>has been given a world of love and beauty and misfortune as well. The good of life
>and the bad of life always balances and the bad of life exceeds the good of life,
>people die. Thus death is a mercy and a way out of pain and suffering. A cruel God
>would have you live forever dragging your broken body after you. You would suffer
>forever in pain and never be able to die.
> The truth is always halfway between what the atheists believe and what the believers
>believe. Christian viewpoints portray an unethical God.

** No, they don't, Jerry! Maybe they do the way YOU present them, in
which case, hey, you've won another dazzling victory over your own
preconceived ideas. But REAL Christianity from a REAL understanding of
the Bible, portrays a perfectly ethical God - a God who you don't seem
to know very well at all.

> The Jewish God was a simple
>tribal God whose concepts are common to all tribal peoples. In reality these tribal
>Gods are merely a space time collective of their local dead. Thus the Jewish God was
>merely the dead of the Jewish ancestors and had little to do with the God of the
>Universe.The Jewish God was no different than the God of the American Indians or any
>other extrasensory effect of all peoples. This God was not cruel but sought to live
>through his chosen people. Thus every tribe was a chosen people of their ancestral
>dead.If you read the Bible you will see that the Jewish God was always in conflict
>with the other Gods. Thus the Jewish God was the Jewish God alone and the other
>people had their Gods of their tribes.

** Read the Bible, Jerry, and you will see that the God of Israel was
the ONLY true God, and the God's of other tribes were simply demons.
Even on your terms, it is clear from the Bible that in any conflict
between Yahweh and the God's of any other tribe, the God of Israel won
outright every time. Take Elijah on Mount Carmel as just one obvious
example.
You're quite entitled to spout your new-age spiritualist philosophies,
but don't make the mistake of trying to back them up with the Bible,
please.

> Philosophy turned simple extrasensory perception of the dead and mythological tales
>into Platos reality. Suddenly the ignorant little God of the Jews became the God of
>the Christian universe.The voice of Jewish madness became the creator of the Universe.
>Thje mixing of the cultures brought Jesus the son of God who died for the sins of man
>into being. Thus simple Jewish madness gave way to universal madness. And those who
>did not believe such madness were killed or tortured or whipped.The lunatics are
>running the asylym.
> Of course there is a little spiritual truth in the mess. Reincarnation becomes
>cosmic reincarnation when man is no longer to exist on the planet. Thus the spiritual
>thrust does bring forth the continuity of life beyond the stars. Yet, this is little
>comfort to those who hope for individual life after death to the expense of their
>fellow man who must suffer forever by their cruel Christian God.
>Jerry (Jewish Prophet of a weak but ethical God)

** Where do you get this stuff from? The Monster New-Age Philosophers
Fun Book?

Malcolm Fraser

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Nov 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/25/96

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Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net> wrote:

> In Jesus Name,
>
> -- Malcolm Fraser

The Bible (Old Testament) was written by the Hebrews, of course they're
the heros of their own story! Dah! Who would be the heros of an Amalakite
Bible? Or a Philistine Bible? This doesn't negate the value of their book,
unless you forget that it was written by men who had a definite bias and
start thinking that it's some sort of objective text which we should read
literally and uncritically.

People who don't agree with simple-minded fundamentalism or conservative
interpretation of text aren't all "New Agers".

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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bat <xb...@ne.com.au> wrote:

** Yeah, yeah. Basically, you don't WANT to agree with or accept the
truth contained in the Bible, therefore when you come up against
something that you don't understand you dismiss it as ridiculous.
Anything in the Bible which you deem "inconsistencies" can be
perfectly sensibly and logically explained with just a little effort
to actually STUDY the Bible, instead of just READING it.
It's interesting to see that pretty much everyone who wants to dismiss
the Bible or claim that it's false, never actually seems to have a
decent knowledge of what they're actually talking about.
Most "anti-Biblical" articles in these newsgroups simply set up their
own arguments based on their own preconceived ideas and then try to
claim some kind of victory by spouting equally ridiculous and
unfounded nonsense.
Give us a break. No real Christian with any real knowledge and
understanding of the Bible is going to take any of it seriously. The
only people you'll reach are people who are as misinformed and
gullible as you.
And I'll be quite happy to address any specific points (based on
scripture) which you want to debate. But if you're not even going to
listen to what I'm saying, then there's not much point, is there?

In Jesus Name,

-- Malcolm Fraser
mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk

Malcolm Fraser

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net> wrote:

** You just never listen, do you? There may be people who have
preached that God tortures people eternally, but that is not what
Christianity is all about - and anybody who teaches that is as wrong
as you are. I've pointed out before that if you insist on arguing with
your own preconceived ideas then you're bound to win. It's a hollow
victory, though.

> Thus the
>Christian God is quite unethical. If you were the man being tortured for all eternity
>you certainly would cry Jesus,Jesus,Jesus over and over again. Paul & Company sold
>the pagans on unethical concepts. Pagans sin by worshipping a man as a God. This is
>pagan idolatry. Certainly some modern Christians have changed tjhe original concepts.
>However Christianity stands before the Jewish God and this God is not quite so
>forgiving of the pagans with their worship of God's prophet.Fortunately the Jewish
>God is ethical.

** Trying to argue based on an almost complete lack of scriptural
understanding just shows your ignorance of real Christianity. It
doesn't prove anything else at all.

>> > The Jewish God was a simple
>> >tribal God whose concepts are common to all tribal peoples. In reality these tribal
>> >Gods are merely a space time collective of their local dead. Thus the Jewish God was
>> >merely the dead of the Jewish ancestors and had little to do with the God of the
>> >Universe.The Jewish God was no different than the God of the American Indians or any
>> >other extrasensory effect of all peoples. This God was not cruel but sought to live
>> >through his chosen people. Thus every tribe was a chosen people of their ancestral
>> >dead.If you read the Bible you will see that the Jewish God was always in conflict
>> >with the other Gods. Thus the Jewish God was the Jewish God alone and the other
>> >people had their Gods of their tribes.
>>
>> ** Read the Bible, Jerry, and you will see that the God of Israel was
>> the ONLY true God, and the God's of other tribes were simply demons.

>One mans demons is another mans God.To the atheist they are all demons. The only
>true God is the God of the Universe but that is a much higher level than our
>heterogeneous Earth Gods which all compete against each other. Fortunately for the
>Jew, the God of the Universe selected the Jewish demon against all other demons to
>be the means of higher man upon the new EArth. There is a hierarchy of the God
>structure. God is one but it is a complex structure with many Earths and many levels
>of humanity closer and closer to the Godhead. We are at the bottom of the heap
>according to God.

** What's your basis for this, Jer? Divine revelation, or what? If I
had a penny for every man or woman who's come along in the last two
thousand year spouting this kind of rubbish and claiming to be a
prophet of God, then I'd be extremely rich by now.

>> Even on your terms, it is clear from the Bible that in any conflict
>> between Yahweh and the God's of any other tribe, the God of Israel won
>> outright every time. Take Elijah on Mount Carmel as just one obvious
>> example.
>> You're quite entitled to spout your new-age spiritualist philosophies,
>> but don't make the mistake of trying to back them up with the Bible,
>> please.

>>Why please. As a Prophet of God, I don't need the Bible.

** Haha!

>
>> > Philosophy turned simple extrasensory perception of the dead and mythological tales
>> >into Platos reality. Suddenly the ignorant little God of the Jews became the God of
>> >the Christian universe.The voice of Jewish madness became the creator of the Universe.
>> >Thje mixing of the cultures brought Jesus the son of God who died for the sins of man
>> >into being. Thus simple Jewish madness gave way to universal madness. And those who
>> >did not believe such madness were killed or tortured or whipped.The lunatics are
>> >running the asylym.
>> > Of course there is a little spiritual truth in the mess. Reincarnation becomes
>> >cosmic reincarnation when man is no longer to exist on the planet. Thus the spiritual
>> >thrust does bring forth the continuity of life beyond the stars. Yet, this is little
>> >comfort to those who hope for individual life after death to the expense of their
>> >fellow man who must suffer forever by their cruel Christian God.
>> >Jerry (Jewish Prophet of a weak but ethical God)
>>
>> ** Where do you get this stuff from? The Monster New-Age Philosophers
>> Fun Book?

>> Sorry I get it from the most high. I am the Prophet of TRUTH and whoever believes
>the TRUTH shall never die.They will go into a perpetual reincarnation cycle upon
>the new Earth and beyond.The God of TRUTH is the highest level of God and is for
>the elite of God. And my writings are the new Bible of the Elite of God who shall
>never perish until the end of the universe. That is the power of my word.

** You get it from the most high? Do the pixies speak to you as well,
Jerry? Give me a break. What about all the other "Prophets of God" who
rant and rave fairly constantly throughout the world and throughout
history. All of them are as false and discredited as you. Your problem
is that you are so high on your own ego that there is absolutely no
chance that you are anything close to a "prophet of God".

Jerry

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

to

Malcolm Fraser wrote:
>
> Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net> wrote:
>

> >> Jerry -
> >>
> >> Hi there! Arguing with yourself again, I see. And, hey, what a
> >> surprise. You win. Well, you must feel pleased with yourself about
> >> that one!
> >> I have to say that I agree with you completely on your comments above,
> >> so it's a good thing that neither I, or any of the other sensible
> >> Christians on this thread, have tried to make the point that you're
> >> arguing against. But, hey, since when has that ever stopped you from
> >> ignoring the points which we DO make, putting words in our mouth, and
> >> then triumphantly claiming a devastating victory.
> >> You don't really need me to keep challenging you about the nonsense
> >> you write. You're doing a pretty good job of discrediting yourself
> >> with every new article you post.
> >>

> >> In Jesus Name,
> >>
> >> -- Malcolm Fraser
> >> mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk
>

> >As long as I get you thinking about real truth and not unethical concepts. It you
> >speak of God than remember you are dealing with an ethical entity who provides life
> >and not death and punishes no man beyond the grave. And this God is not man and the
> >foolish concepts of man Gods of thousands of years ago. You practice idolatry.
> >Jerry (Jewish Prophet of an Ethical God)
>
> Jerry -
>
> I realise perfectly that God is an ethical entity. I just happen to
> think that YOUR view of "ethics" is both unsound and unfounded. God is
> not man. True. But neither is man God, which seems to be pretty much
> the status that you're trying to take for yourself.
> And the last thing you're unfounded, badly argued nonsense will make
> anybody do is think about the truth. Anybody who does have an
> understanding of the truth will be able to see immediately how false
> your statements are.
>

> In Jesus Name,
>
> -- Malcolm Fraser

> mjfr...@zetnet.co.ukAns. from Jerry:
If you think my statements are false, then how is it you believe what the Gospels
say since clearly there are many false things in them. I didn't ask to do this job,
God forced me to obey. The least thing I am interested in is religion but evidently
God felt I could do the right job. It is a horrible job. There are a lot of things
that I could have enjoyed in life but God wouldn't let me alone.
The important thing is that God showed me five new EArths. One is the Jewish New
Earth but God did not tell me what the others are for. Judaism teaches that God
provides for all. Using that principle, it is very possible that God provided a new
EArth for Christians and others as well. However if Christianity doesn't strive for
life beyond the simple Kingdom of Heaven, then how will the collective Christian soul
achieve the gift from God to mankind. Thus it is necessary to shake up Christians
in order to insure that they too will be worthy. If I didn't beat on Christians, how
would they see the light? My ethics are such that I cannot deny others which has
been given to the Jew.

Ryan Chelese Alaniz

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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On 24 Nov 1996, Ray and Jess Stroud wrote:

> Dear Ray,
It is good to hear that someone else is also a fan of C.S.
Lewis. How I see your predicament, is that you are missing an important
point in the belief/faith/relationship with God. True, God only used men
when He started The Church-(any church) and that is the reason why each
church has its faults. But that is not all God gave us as proof. Think
about the happiest time in your life,how you got there and how you felt,
and the worst time in your life, how you felt and how you got through
it.

In my heart I have felt God's presence and I think everyone in the
world has or will. Usually it is found at the high as well as the low
points in a persons life-i.e. birth of a child or conquering of a great
feat, or death of a family member, injury or failure. God has let all
these things be so we know that there is something beyond us. Of I nor
anyone in the world can prove or disprove what I have just said and that
is where faith comes in. Just open your heart and I think you will find
your answer.

It is great that you question! Think of the consequences if
Martin Luther wouldn't have questioned. Or if the Americans didn't fight
for there freedom 200+ years ago. ~How I answered your question.
ryan
question authority

Karen McFarlin

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

to

> ** The Hebrews are very frequently portrayed in an exceptionally BAD
> light, in "their own story." The point being that the Bible tells the
> truth, regardless of whether that's good or bad for Jews or Christians
> or anybody else.

God doesn't write books - that's a stupid notion. The numerous
contradictions and historically irregularities in the text are proof that
it was written, rewritten, and later edited by men.

> GOD wrote the Bible. He just used men to do it.

Ghost-writing no doubt. You have crossed over into Biblio-idolatry. The
Bible is a book. God transcends human words and human understanding. It is
shear persumption to think that any work of man's hands and minds captures
the totality of God.

> ** Agreed. But I was talking to Jerry, who obviously is.
>
> -- Malcolm Fraser

The glory and strength of Biblical text is that it allows for a myriad of
interpretations and applications. It is not bound by the narrow and
self-serving interpretations of fundamentalists. And compared to the
wonder of God (use universe or Tao if you choose) it is a pebble dropped
into the sea.

Cairns

Jerry

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

to

Comments from Jerry:
Actually to get a real insight into God we must study all the holy books from all
the various perspectives.Although I have tried to study Judaism, Christianity, and
Hinduism, it is very difficult for me to describe things emotionally with a hindu
perspective or a Christian perspective. Thus my Jewish perspective always comes
through. However as far as the human mind encountering the totality of God my manic
depressive mind does swing to those heights and I look at awe at the totality of
God. Although the thinking of God is different than the actualy physical structure
of God which is easy to visualize and understand. Thus we can understand the Physics
of God fully while never really understanding the entire master plan of God.
Christians err when they preach their little understanding of God as representing
the totality of God. They turn God into a man with a man's brain. They think in terms
of individual eternal life as if one man means anything. God thinks in terms of
the creation, the species man, of which each of us is only less than one billionth.
Thus in our arrogance we tend to believe that which makes us a little God. And to make
matter worse we declare man to be God so to be sure of our continued life. Yet, this
is false as no man shall ever leave this EARth alive. It is only the memory of the
man that becomes part of new life.
Malcom thinks that I am New Age. Well I am not. I am merely bringing Biblical
thought to modern times. I am merely bringing the truth to mankind.The days of the
devil are over. Modern man will not buy such nonsense. God the Process is still
viable since everything related to life is a complex process. Thus we must look
at the religious interpretations of the scientific findings to fully understand how
man got here and where we are going. Then we must look to the Bible for the
religious truth within the new scientific knowledge. Then we must ask whom the Jews
spoke to years ago and who really was Jesus.These are tough questions but they must
be answered if man is to survive the bad days ahead and live beyond this EArth.
The survival of the species is at stake and unless man moves foward we will be left
behind.
Jerry (Jewish Prophet of a God who asks us to learn and grow up)

Jerry

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Nov 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/27/96

to

Malcolm Fraser wrote:
>
> >
> >One mans demons is another mans God.To the atheist they are all demons. The only
> >true God is the God of the Universe but that is a much higher level than our
> >heterogeneous Earth Gods which all compete against each other. Fortunately for the
> >Jew, the God of the Universe selected the Jewish demon against all other demons to
> >be the means of higher man upon the new EArth. There is a hierarchy of the God
> >structure. God is one but it is a complex structure with many Earths and many levels
> >of humanity closer and closer to the Godhead. We are at the bottom of the heap
> >according to God.
>
> ** What's your basis for this, Jer? Divine revelation, or what? If I
> had a penny for every man or woman who's come along in the last two
> thousand year spouting this kind of rubbish and claiming to be a
> prophet of God, then I'd be extremely rich by now.

>Ans. from Jerry:
Now you have a dual problem. I deserve 2 cents. I claim not only to be a Prophet of
God but to make matters worse I claim to be the brother of Jesus. In 1981 when I
asked God my relationship to Jesus God replied "He is a brother unto you". Those were
Gods exact words. God didn't say he was my brother he said the above. I do not fully
understand what God meant but it implies that I am a reincarnation of his actual
brother of long ago or that I am a new version of the Prophet. I prefer to believe
that I am a reincarnation of his actual brother since I claim to be the Scientific
Prophet of God and not responsible for the souls of man. Unfortunately God will make
of me what God chooses to make of me. Thus in 1981 I asked for no responsiblity for
the salvation of mankind but only to teach mankind about God and the Universe yet
what God wants will be done and it is not within my hands but to reveal and to
explain the Jewish new Earth and the other 4 Earths which I was shown. Yet I do not
know the final purpose of the other 4 Earths. And of course God has not revealed all
to me.God refused to answer many, many of my questions. Thus I often stand in error.
However this does not seem to be a concern for God since man must struggle for his
own salvation and correct infomation is always mixed with incorrect information so
that man must struggle and suffer for the truth. God called me ignorant and demanded
that I work and study and stood over me while I read and studied make sure that I
got little sleep but obeyed God's command for me to study for years.For many years
I was chained into obedience to Gods demand.

Jerry (Jewish Prophet of God and brother of Jesus)

bat

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

to

> In Jesus Name,
>
> -- Malcolm Fraser
> mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk

OK,
Please explain these.
They are taken directly out of the KJV.

Lev 11:6 "And the hare,because he cheweth the cud...."
Hares do not chew their cud.

Gen 1:12 "And the earth brought forth grass and herb...."
Gen 1:14 "And God said, Let their be lights in the firmament of the
heaven to divide the day from night...."
How did plants grow before sunlight?

Lev 14:49-53 God believes a *house* has leprosy and must be cleansed.
A house cannot *have* leprosy and leprosy is not contagious anyway.

2CH 7:5, 8-9 Solomon sacrificed 22,000 oxen and 120,000 sheep in one
week. This is 845+ animals per hour, 14+ animals
per minute, for seven days straight.

2CH 21:20, 22:1-2 Ahaziah was forty-two when he became king; he
succeeded his father, who died at the age of forty. Thus,
Ahaziah was two years older than his father.

GE 9:12-16 God first creates the rainbow. (Note: Apparently the laws
having to do with refraction of light were null and void
prior to this time.)

It would be interesting to see if there were any proper answers to the
above, and not just judgemental criticisms of myself, and BTW may I say
that you have *no* idea of my background or knowledge, or of how I read
or study the bible. personal criticism is usually a good indicator that
"the truth hurts".

bat

ps. thanks to Donald Morgan for "Bible Absurdities" from the secular
web.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/

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jddddddddddddddd jddiwww uwiiiiiii
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fjhpfffffffffffffffff

mar...@usit.net

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

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jack...@alnitak.xylogics.com (Jack King) wrote:

>: Malcolm Fraser wrote:
>: >
>: > The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -

>: > depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts
>: > of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
>: > been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
>: > doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.
>: >

>Nope. There are a few isolated passages (e.g. the Lake of Fire) which
>if taken out of context can be made to mean just about anything. But
>a God of love would not torture his children for 5 minutes, let alone
>eternity.

>Jack

Thanks Jack -you SHALL know the truth and the truth shall set you
free. More than just a cliche' is'nt it. One of my favorite
translational errors in scripture is hades ,sheol, gehenna group
tanslation as "hell" I think it was more power hunger motivated as
has always been the suppression of the truth, ie the crucifiction ,
satan's opposition,early (1st&2nd century )christian defenders if the
truth who died rather than compromise.
Check out Proverbs2:2-5
Mike(Truthspeaker)
And while were on the subject of truth -anybody looked in their
encyclopedia under Christmas?

Malcolm Fraser

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

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bat <xb...@ne.com.au> wrote:

>OK,
>Please explain these.
>They are taken directly out of the KJV.

>Lev 11:6 "And the hare,because he cheweth the cud...."
>Hares do not chew their cud.

** This is most probably a translational problem. The original word,
"arnebeth", is fairly ambiguous, I think. I'll admit, however, that I
don't know that much about it. You can interpret that as a victory for
yourself if you wish.

>Gen 1:12 "And the earth brought forth grass and herb...."
>Gen 1:14 "And God said, Let their be lights in the firmament of the
>heaven to divide the day from night...."
>How did plants grow before sunlight?

** Genesis 1:4 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was
light." + Verses 5 and 6. There was clearly some kind of light before
God created the "lights in the firmament of heaven" in verse 14. There
is, therefore, no discrepancy. The fact that you might not be able to
understand quite how this worked is a different matter entirely. Just
because you don't understand something doesn't make it false.

>Lev 14:49-53 God believes a *house* has leprosy and must be cleansed.
>A house cannot *have* leprosy and leprosy is not contagious anyway.

** Firstly, the "house" does not JUST hold literal and physical
meaning, but it has greater symbolic meaning as well. In terms of the
physical aspect which you point out here, the Hebrew word which is
translated "leprosy" can actually refer to any infectious skin disease
- and is, hence, better translated in the NIV. This is a fairly
well-known translational problem in both the Hebrew and Greek
languages.

>2CH 7:5, 8-9 Solomon sacrificed 22,000 oxen and 120,000 sheep in one
>week. This is 845+ animals per hour, 14+ animals
>per minute, for seven days straight.

** Well, first of all, there's nothing to suggest that King Soloman
offered all these sacrifices by himself. Verses 4 and 6 strongly
suggest that "all the people" were involved. And there were an awful
lot of Israelites. The Levites mentioned in Verse 6 were the priests,
and they were a whole tribe. The interpretation of this is arguable,
of course.

>2CH 21:20, 22:1-2 Ahaziah was forty-two when he became king; he
>succeeded his father, who died at the age of forty. Thus,
>Ahaziah was two years older than his father.

** Hmm. Well, although the accuracy of the Jewish scribes who copied
the manuscripts of the Old Testament was exceptionally high, there
certainly must be a possibility that this is simply a historical
"typo" which occured at a later date. I know that you'll probably
think that's a lame explanation, but that doesn't mean its not true. I
mean, a mistake as glaringly obvious as this in the midst of so much
detailed accuracy. I would think that a copying error, or some such
thing, would actually be a much more plausible explanation than to say
that someone or some group who was making the whole thing up made such
a simple error. If the Bible was a work of fiction then surely someone
would have just changed it as soon as it was noticed.

I realise that you probably won't be happy with my analysis here, but
if you think about it openly, it's certainly gives pause for thought.

>GE 9:12-16 God first creates the rainbow. (Note: Apparently the laws
>having to do with refraction of light were null and void
>prior to this time.)

** The most common explanation for this is that it had never
previously rained prior to the flood. The laws of physics were
therefore constant, but the earth's environement was changed. Verse 11
suggests that there was some source of water beneath the earth's
surface which may have provided a kind of latent moisture. Of course,
this is all very easy for a non-believer to dismiss, but it certainly
provides a plausible explanation for what happened. Whether or not you
choose to accept it or not is, of course, up to you.

>It would be interesting to see if there were any proper answers to the
>above, and not just judgemental criticisms of myself, and BTW may I say
>that you have *no* idea of my background or knowledge, or of how I read
>or study the bible. personal criticism is usually a good indicator that
>"the truth hurts".

** My impression of your Biblical background and knowledge was based
on the comments which you made, which implied that you you were
ridiculing the Bible and had made no serious effort to study the
things which you were talking about. Therefore, I must apologise for
jumping to conclusions in the first place. And I apologise again if
those conclusions were wrong.

Malcolm Fraser

unread,

Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

to

Malcolm Fraser

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

to

mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk (Malcolm Fraser) wrote:

>bat <xb...@ne.com.au> wrote:

>>2CH 21:20, 22:1-2 Ahaziah was forty-two when he became king; he
>>succeeded his father, who died at the age of forty. Thus,
>>Ahaziah was two years older than his father.

>** Hmm. Well, although the accuracy of the Jewish scribes who copied
>the manuscripts of the Old Testament was exceptionally high, there
>certainly must be a possibility that this is simply a historical
>"typo" which occured at a later date. I know that you'll probably
>think that's a lame explanation, but that doesn't mean its not true. I
>mean, a mistake as glaringly obvious as this in the midst of so much
>detailed accuracy. I would think that a copying error, or some such
>thing, would actually be a much more plausible explanation than to say
>that someone or some group who was making the whole thing up made such
>a simple error. If the Bible was a work of fiction then surely someone
>would have just changed it as soon as it was noticed.

** I've just done some more research on this, and apparantly this
problem only exists in certain of the original Old Testament
manuscripts - some of the Spetuagint manuscripts and the Syriac. The
NIV Bible translates Ahaziah's age as "twenty two" when he came to the
throne.

In Jesus Name,

-- Malcolm Fraser
mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk

PS. Sorry about the double post. My ISP has been having some problems
with the news server.

bat

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Nov 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/29/96

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Malcolm Fraser wrote:
>
> bat <xb...@ne.com.au> wrote:
>
> >OK,
> >Please explain these.
> >They are taken directly out of the KJV.
>
> >Lev 11:6 "And the hare,because he cheweth the cud...."
> >Hares do not chew their cud.
>
> ** This is most probably a translational problem. The original word,
> "arnebeth", is fairly ambiguous, I think. I'll admit, however, that I
> don't know that much about it. You can interpret that as a victory for
> yourself if you wish.

Well, there must be a *translation* problem with a few of the other
verses that state that the coney (shaphan - not ambiguous in any way)
it means rabbit, hare or hedgehog - none of which chew their cud.

>
> >Gen 1:12 "And the earth brought forth grass and herb...."
> >Gen 1:14 "And God said, Let their be lights in the firmament of the
> >heaven to divide the day from night...."
> >How did plants grow before sunlight?
>
> ** Genesis 1:4 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was
> light." + Verses 5 and 6. There was clearly some kind of light before
> God created the "lights in the firmament of heaven" in verse 14. There
> is, therefore, no discrepancy. The fact that you might not be able to
> understand quite how this worked is a different matter entirely. Just
> because you don't understand something doesn't make it false.

I do understand something, and that is that the sun is a lot *older*
than the earth. The earth does not stop revolving, so there was always
day and night. To not accept this would mean abandoning the laws of
physics.

>
> >Lev 14:49-53 God believes a *house* has leprosy and must be cleansed.
> >A house cannot *have* leprosy and leprosy is not contagious anyway.
>
> ** Firstly, the "house" does not JUST hold literal and physical
> meaning, but it has greater symbolic meaning as well. In terms of the
> physical aspect which you point out here, the Hebrew word which is
> translated "leprosy" can actually refer to any infectious skin disease
> - and is, hence, better translated in the NIV. This is a fairly
> well-known translational problem in both the Hebrew and Greek
> languages.

Exactly the same problem. A house, not having living cells to support a
virus and because they were made of clay/stone were not of an organic
nature to be able to harbour bacteria, therefore, it is ridiculous to
imply that a house can have any sickness.

>
> >2CH 7:5, 8-9 Solomon sacrificed 22,000 oxen and 120,000 sheep in one
> >week. This is 845+ animals per hour, 14+ animals
> >per minute, for seven days straight.
>
> ** Well, first of all, there's nothing to suggest that King Soloman
> offered all these sacrifices by himself. Verses 4 and 6 strongly
> suggest that "all the people" were involved. And there were an awful
> lot of Israelites. The Levites mentioned in Verse 6 were the priests,
> and they were a whole tribe. The interpretation of this is arguable,
> of course.

Our translations are looking a bit frail I'm afraid.

>
> >2CH 21:20, 22:1-2 Ahaziah was forty-two when he became king; he
> >succeeded his father, who died at the age of forty. Thus,
> >Ahaziah was two years older than his father.
>
> ** Hmm. Well, although the accuracy of the Jewish scribes who copied
> the manuscripts of the Old Testament was exceptionally high, there
> certainly must be a possibility that this is simply a historical
> "typo" which occured at a later date. I know that you'll probably
> think that's a lame explanation, but that doesn't mean its not true. I
> mean, a mistake as glaringly obvious as this in the midst of so much
> detailed accuracy. I would think that a copying error, or some such
> thing, would actually be a much more plausible explanation than to say
> that someone or some group who was making the whole thing up made such
> a simple error. If the Bible was a work of fiction then surely someone
> would have just changed it as soon as it was noticed.

No, if the bible were the literal word of god, then the mistakes would
never have happened, or would never have been allowed to happen during
later translations because, of course, God, being the supreme creator,
would be able yo have complete control over a book that is *supposed* to
be his written word for all mankind. It would seem a bit sloppy to let a
few men mess it up by misinterpreting a few words.

>
> I realise that you probably won't be happy with my analysis here, but
> if you think about it openly, it's certainly gives pause for thought.
>
> >GE 9:12-16 God first creates the rainbow. (Note: Apparently the laws
> >having to do with refraction of light were null and void
> >prior to this time.)
>
> ** The most common explanation for this is that it had never
> previously rained prior to the flood. The laws of physics were
> therefore constant, but the earth's environement was changed. Verse 11
> suggests that there was some source of water beneath the earth's
> surface which may have provided a kind of latent moisture. Of course,
> this is all very easy for a non-believer to dismiss, but it certainly
> provides a plausible explanation for what happened. Whether or not you
> choose to accept it or not is, of course, up to you.

So are you saying that up until around 6000 years ago it never had
rained before?
Do you seriously believe that anyone with any common sense or knowledge
of science would agree? (apart from creation scientists).
What about gorges and canyons that have been cut out by rivers over
hundreds of thousands of years.
Rain is caused by evaporation of water vapour back into the atmosphere
until it condenses to a stage where gravity forces it back down again.
Do you think this phenomenon started 6000 years ago? All the laws of
physics were suspended were they?
As for the theory of water comming from underground sources, there is no
evidence whatsoever to support this. In fact, archeologists have proven
that there is not enough empty space under the earth to support anywhere
near the amount of water you talk about. This water would have had to
come out of the ground through openings all over the world. Where is the
evidence? How did the ancient rainforests grow without rain. Rainforests
that existed *millions* of years ago and have now become the oil that
you use to power your car.

Please don't pre-suppose the suspension of physics and all natural laws
just to back up your doctrines. People that understand these things will
have no-hope of accepting *anything* you say. Of course you will say
they are unbelievers anyway, which is a disgrace in itself, because the
people that refuse to believe in the literal fundamentalist accounts of
biblical history, are doing so because they are being *honest* within
themselves, knowing that most of the claims made by the bible *cannot*
be true, therefore, the bible *cannot* be the literal word of god
because it has too many mistakes and inconsistencies.

Now, if you feel the bible *contains* the word of god, then that is a
different story, which, I am sure, a lot of people could relate to.

bat

>
> >It would be interesting to see if there were any proper answers to the
> >above, and not just judgemental criticisms of myself, and BTW may I say
> >that you have *no* idea of my background or knowledge, or of how I read
> >or study the bible. personal criticism is usually a good indicator that
> >"the truth hurts".
>
> ** My impression of your Biblical background and knowledge was based
> on the comments which you made, which implied that you you were
> ridiculing the Bible and had made no serious effort to study the
> things which you were talking about. Therefore, I must apologise for
> jumping to conclusions in the first place. And I apologise again if
> those conclusions were wrong.
>

Malcolm Fraser

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Nov 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/30/96

to

bat <xb...@ne.com.au> wrote:

>Now, if you feel the bible *contains* the word of god, then that is a
>different story, which, I am sure, a lot of people could relate to.

Well, I'm not going to get into a prolonged argument over the specific
points you raised. You've put them forward, I've answered them to the
best of my ability, and you've given your opinion of my answers. I
don't see that there's much to be gained by going over the same ground
time and time again.

I do seem to agree with you on the point you make above, though. I
believe that the Bible is a book, and it was quite obviously written
by men - in a purely physical sense. However, I also believe that the
Bible is the Word of God and that it's ultimate author is, indeed, God
himself - through divine inspiration etc.

Parts of the Bible are obviously literal, and parts of the Bible are
obviously not. To identify which are which, the scriptures have to be
*studied* and not just read. Of course, in the end, it comes down to
personal understanding and personal interpretation and, on that level,
I don't see the point in arguing about it.

I don't have a monopoly on the truth any more than anybody else does.
I simply learn and interpret and contemplate and study the best I can
and come to my own conclusions, and I would expect any other Christian
to do the same. I'll put my point of view across as openly as anyone
else but, in the end, if we don't agree, so be it.

Christianity is about a personal relationship with God through our
Saviour Jesus Christ - it's not so much about reading the Word as it
is *living* the Word. All anyone can do is their best and, ultimately,
the Lord is their judge. And I'm quite happy to trust Him without
trying to usurp His position.

You've raised some interesting points. Thanks.

In Jesus Name,

- Malcolm Fraser
mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk

curso5

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Nov 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/30/96

to

There is no such thing as a being we can call GOD. All beings are limited,
finite. <all that can be said of the Deity is that IT IS. As to Hell,
there is no such place. What people call Hell is a state of consciousness,
created by each one, according to their thoughts and deeds. The Universe
is ruled by a set of laws, physical and otherwise. One such law is the law
of Retribution. You simply receive what you sow. On this, Jesus was right
on the mark.

Fr. John W. Morris <jrj...@cannet.com> wrote in article
<01bbd512$09489560$31f6...@cannet.com.jrjohn>...
>
>
> Karen McFarlin <ka...@snowcrest.net> wrote in article
> <karen-16119...@206.245.192.42>...
> > >
> > If what you say above is true, then the doctrine of hell is based on
> > vindictiveness. Hardly the reaction of a perfect being (God). I cannot
> > follow a God that is less moral than I am. (Sartre)
> >
> Fr. John W. Morris responds:
>
> God is a God of justice. There are those who deliberately chose a life of
> rebellion against Him. Therefore God is just and honors their choice. God
> sends no one to hell. People send themselves to hell by the misuse of
their
> free will.
>
> Fr. John +
>

Will Dukes

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Nov 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/30/96

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bat <xb...@ne.com.au> wrote:

>Malcolm Fraser wrote:
>>
>> bat <xb...@ne.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> >OK,
>> >Please explain these.
>> >They are taken directly out of the KJV.
>>
>> >Lev 11:6 "And the hare,because he cheweth the cud...."
>> >Hares do not chew their cud.
>>
>> ** This is most probably a translational problem. The original word,
>> "arnebeth", is fairly ambiguous, I think. I'll admit, however, that I
>> don't know that much about it. You can interpret that as a victory for
>> yourself if you wish.

>Well, there must be a *translation* problem with a few of the other
>verses that state that the coney (shaphan - not ambiguous in any way)
>it means rabbit, hare or hedgehog - none of which chew their cud.

(sorry I don't feel like making everyone have to read all of that
again)
I was just curious, are you a Christian who doesn't take the bible as
being literal or a non-Christian who is using all this as a way of
discrediting Christianity? You weren't real clear on that. If you
simply don't take the bible literally, I agree with you. I could
really care less whether a rabbit can chew cud or not. I think that
the bible was written during a time when its readers didn't know all
the laws of physics. For God to explain physics to them in order for
them to understand his Word was not important. God knew that an
understanding of science would come in time. What was important to
God in creating the scriptures was to explain the spiritual truths of
life. To teach them how to live righteously and healthfully in peace
with each other and God. We may know now that the universe could not
have been created as the bible says (of course we could be wrong, it
would't be the first time) but the point was that however it happened
God did it and that everything you see is the beautiful handiwork of a
powerful and loving God. Humanity is older than it was when we were
given the scriptures. We're more mature and need more mature answers
to scientific questions, but the spiritual truths remain the same and
I think God assumes that as more mature creatures we can continue to
see those underlying truths. Much luck to you in your quest for
answers.

Christ's love,
Will

bat

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Dec 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/1/96

to

Whether I am a christian or not, is not pertinent.
What is perinent though, are the many questions regarding the Divine
nature, or otherwise, of the bible. You may not care about whether a
hare chews its cud, but to claim a book is divinely inspired by the
*creator* of the hare, but the creator does either not know how his own
creation eats, or, allows his writers to misinterpret his words, must
cast doubt on the divinety of the bible.

This would not be such an important matter except that people use this
book to tell other people that they will go to some place of eternal
damnation/punishment. This place is one they have never seen and have no
*direct* proof of, yet they speak of it as factual because they have
read about it in a book they claim is the divine writings of god, so it
all has to be right, apart from some *misinterpretations* that they
cannot answer. It rings alarm bells when straightforward questioning
receives a hostile response, but this should be expected when the
questions are not easily answered and cast doubt on the authority of the
person being questioned

Yes, *spitirual truths* are very important and of much more benefit than
debating literal meanings, but everybody should be *allowed* to follow
their own spiritual truths, not someone elses because they are told they
will "go to hell" if they don't.

Psychologically, I would say that people who use fear tactics, threats,
dogma etc, to state their case for their own god, are just projecting
their base fears of the unconscious on to others. Suppression of
unconscious fear will always lead, eventually, to neurosis of some
sort, hence the many examples of extreme and strange behaviour within
fundamentalist groups.

Watch out! When you expect it least, your shadow will come up and bight
you.

bat

CHI CHI

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Dec 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/1/96

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Why is this verse important to you?

Will Dukes <wjd...@datasync.com> wrote in article
<57q9vv$2...@osh2.datasync.com>...

> bat <xb...@ne.com.au> wrote:
>
> >Malcolm Fraser wrote:
> >>
> >> bat <xb...@ne.com.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> >OK,
> >> >Please explain these.
> >> >They are taken directly out of the KJV.
> >>
> >> >Lev 11:6 "And the hare,because he cheweth the cud...."
> >> >Hares do not chew their cud.
> >>
> >> ** This is most probably a translational problem. The original word,
> >> "arnebeth", is fairly ambiguous, I think. I'll admit, however, that I
> >> don't know that much about it. You can interpret that as a victory for
> >> yourself if you wish.
>
> >Well, there must be a *translation* problem with a few of the other
> >verses that state that the coney (shaphan - not ambiguous in any way)
> >it means rabbit, hare or hedgehog - none of which chew their cud.
>

Will Dukes

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Dec 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/1/96

to

bat <xb...@ne.com.au> wrote:

>Yes, *spitirual truths* are very important and of much more benefit than
>debating literal meanings, but everybody should be *allowed* to follow
>their own spiritual truths, not someone elses because they are told they
>will "go to hell" if they don't.

>Psychologically, I would say that people who use fear tactics, threats,
>dogma etc, to state their case for their own god, are just projecting
>their base fears of the unconscious on to others. Suppression of
>unconscious fear will always lead, eventually, to neurosis of some
>sort, hence the many examples of extreme and strange behaviour within
>fundamentalist groups.

>Watch out! When you expect it least, your shadow will come up and bight
>you.

>bat

You're absolutely right. I personally believe that there is a Hell
but even Jesus said "Do not judge and you will not be judged."
"Blessed are those who show mercy; mercy will be shown to them." (you
see, there it is, support for what you were saying right there in the
book you were trying to disprove) Like I said I think that there is a
Hell but I don't think anyone but God has a right to say who goes
there. I mean I for one am not going to risk my salvation just so I
can say "Yer goin' to Hell ya damn sinner!" I just don't quite see
the payoff. I mean Jesus taught us to reach out to those who don't
believe with love not hate. Now I'm not sure I totally believe this
but it is just a thought---Christianity may not be the only way to
salvation. I tend to think that it is, I mean if the cost of sin is
death and we all sin - how else? But I could be wrong and I'm not
going to curse everyone else to hell for not being Christian. Well I
hope that made sense, I'm not real sure it did. I was just throwing
out some ideas.
Peace,
Will

Jerry

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Dec 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/1/96

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Facts Vs Feelings wrote:

>
> On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:19:53 GMT, mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk (Malcolm
> Fraser) wrote:
>
> >To anybody who reads this -
> >I find it difficult to believe that anybody could be so spiritually
> >immature and gullible as to be sucked in by the garbage that Mr
> >"Prophet of God" insists on churning out. He's perfectly entitled to
> >his views, of course, but what they're doing on supposedly Christian
> >newsgroups I have no idea. And anybody who believes that this kind of
> >stuff actually comes from God must have a pretty warped concept of God
> >in the first place.
> >Personally, I have no intention of wasting my time arguing with
> >someone who has no Christian or Biblical basis for his nonsensical,
> >new-age statements.
> >I can only ask that anyone who is even thinking of taking this guy
> >seriously should go away and read the Bible for themselves and come to
> >their own conclusions. Don't just take my word for it.
> >To Jerry -
> >Please restrict your postings to newsgroups which are relevant to your
> >philosophies, and stop bugging the Christians. I know you probably
> >won't take any notice of this, just like you've totally failed to take
> >any notice of anything I've written previously, but I have to at least
> >try to get through to you.

> >In Jesus Name,
> >-- Malcolm Fraser
>

> What gall. Here I am reading your post in alt.religion.recovery and
> you demand that someone else restrict their posts to non christian
> groups? So you're saying that only xians can convert, only xians can
> actively perform missionary type work? Typical xianish Hypocrisy.
>
> Read the bible? Soon as you read "The Book Your Church Doesn't Want
> You To Read", edited by Tim C. Leedom.

Comments from Jerry:
Dear Malcom;
Christians have been trying to convert Jews for two thousand years. Christians have
destroyed the many tribal religions of the world. They have killed and conquered some
of the most beautiful people with the most beautiful religions. They filled simple
peoples, loving tribal peoples mind with fear and hate. Christians have attacked and
attacked. They have forced their viewpoints on others at the point of a sword and a
whip. They have not sought truth. They merely have by force of arms killed those who
did not follow their man God concepts.
Now we have a forum to discuss many ideas. The Christians have sinned before the
world for 2000 years. On little Jew speaks up and suddenly I am supposed to go
elsewhere. Where is there space that you do not own? You are continuing to attempt
to convert the poor mind of the innocent into your vengeful and horrible God concepts.
You have tortured to many poor innocent victims long enough.You religion has no basis
in Judaism. It has no means of attachment to the tribal Jew.
Christianity is one religion out of many. EAch individual has the choice of one
religion or another. A man can be an atheist as well. It really doesn't matter since
all men are treated the same in death. We are alive and we are dead and sad to say
that is the fate of mankind. The dreams of eternal life and eternal hell are merely
dreams. They have no basis in reality. Reincarnation is a different story since man
can only really exist in a physical state.
The dreams of Jesus are dreams. The dreams of others are dreams as well. We live
today and perhaps hope that one dream or another is correct but we cannot base our
life and our reality upon the dreams of dreamers long ago. We must move foward and
realize that individual eternal life is a false dream.
So much pain and so much tears are caused by those who preach hell. They do much
more harm than good. They destroy the love of life that is ours to keep. Christians
have done so much harm to others. Yet many are good people but they are victims of
the dreams of long ago.
I like to give the readers some truth to think about. The Christians care little
for truth. They only want to satisfy their own fears.
Jerry (Jewish Prophet of Truth and thought)

Facts Vs Feelings

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Dec 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/2/96

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On Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:16:00 GMT, mjfr...@zetnet.co.uk (Malcolm
Fraser) wrote:

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Dec 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/2/96

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Friends,
I have a question about humility. Can someone give a good
definition of what it takes to be humble and how to go about it without
using textbook answers? I have found difficulty in the explaination as
well as in the task. Thanks.

ryan
ral...@ruebens.calpoly.edu

Malcolm Fraser

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Dec 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/3/96

to

Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net> wrote:

>Comments from Jerry:

> Dear Malcom;
> Christians have been trying to convert Jews for two thousand years. Christians have
>destroyed the many tribal religions of the world. They have killed and conquered some
>of the most beautiful people with the most beautiful religions. They filled simple
>peoples, loving tribal peoples mind with fear and hate. Christians have attacked and
>attacked. They have forced their viewpoints on others at the point of a sword and a
>whip. They have not sought truth. They merely have by force of arms killed those who
>did not follow their man God concepts.
> Now we have a forum to discuss many ideas.

** You're not discussing, Jerry. You're telling.

>The Christians have sinned before the
>world for 2000 years. On little Jew speaks up and suddenly I am supposed to go
>elsewhere. Where is there space that you do not own? You are continuing to attempt
>to convert the poor mind of the innocent into your vengeful and horrible God concepts.
>You have tortured to many poor innocent victims long enough.You religion has no basis
>in Judaism. It has no means of attachment to the tribal Jew.
> Christianity is one religion out of many. EAch individual has the choice of one
>religion or another. A man can be an atheist as well. It really doesn't matter since
>all men are treated the same in death. We are alive and we are dead and sad to say
>that is the fate of mankind. The dreams of eternal life and eternal hell are merely
>dreams. They have no basis in reality. Reincarnation is a different story since man
>can only really exist in a physical state.
> The dreams of Jesus are dreams. The dreams of others are dreams as well. We live
>today and perhaps hope that one dream or another is correct but we cannot base our
>life and our reality upon the dreams of dreamers long ago. We must move foward and
>realize that individual eternal life is a false dream.
> So much pain and so much tears are caused by those who preach hell. They do much
>more harm than good. They destroy the love of life that is ours to keep. Christians
>have done so much harm to others. Yet many are good people but they are victims of
>the dreams of long ago.
> I like to give the readers some truth to think about. The Christians care little
>for truth. They only want to satisfy their own fears.
>Jerry (Jewish Prophet of Truth and thought)

Malcolm replies:

Yes, okay, Jerry. You have every right to your beliefs and your
opinions and you have every right to post them wherever you want to
without interference. I was simply making a suggestion that you should
target your philosphies and teachings towards those who actually want
to hear them. I know you won't agree with that action, or even with
the fact that I'm suggesting it - but it's just a suggestion, and a
personal one at that. I can't speak for whole newsgroups, just myself.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore. This may seem to be
defeatist on my part, and you can claim a victory out of it if you
wish, but I really don't see any point in arguing with someone who
doesn't even listen to what I say and has closed his mind to it
anyway. Continuing to argue under these circumstances is simply not
constructive. Jerry, you have your beliefs, and I have mine. We both
believe we are right, and any further argument is simply going to
descend into the realms of an "I have the truth and you don't!"
slanging match. However, at the end of the day, nothing I say is going
to make you change your mind about anything, and nothing you say is
going to make me change my mind about anything either.

Therefore, according to my beliefs, I just pray that God will protect
people's minds from your false teaching. I know you probably won't
like that either, but we'll just have to leave it up to God, won't we.

unread,

Dec 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/4/96

to

mar...@usit.net wrote:
>
> jack...@alnitak.xylogics.com (Jack King) wrote:
>
> >: Malcolm Fraser wrote:
> >: >
> >: > The doctrine of Hell is not based on fear, it is based on truth -
> >: > depending what you mean by "doctrine" of course. There are all sorts
> >: > of false teachings going around about Hell, many of which have already
> >: > been displayed in this thread, and chief of which is the idea that it
> >: > doesn't really exist and nobody's going there anyway.
> >: >
>
> >Nope. There are a few isolated passages (e.g. the Lake of Fire) which
> >if taken out of context can be made to mean just about anything. But
> >a God of love would not torture his children for 5 minutes, let alone
> >eternity.
>
> >Jack
>

> Thank you Jack one of my favorite mistranslations in the scriptures
> are those dealing with sheol,hades and gehenna. Hell is destruction
> without a doubt but it's just as written abouut in the septuagint
> not a fear tactic of 16th century politicians and popes.
> While were on the subject of truth, What about the Christmas
> traditions?

Comments from Jerry:
The God of the Universe that spent so much thought that the physical suffering
of man will be absolutely minimized so that excessive pain causes death or comma,
insures that no man will suffer even one second in death more than absolutely
necessary. Thus five minutes is excessive in hell.
The difference between life and death is electrical transmission of the intelligence
of man to God.At death and slightly before there is an intelligence transfer from
the mind of man to the mind of God. You don't have a soul as such. It doesn't belong
to you. It belongs to God. Nothing pops out of your body when your die. You are
electrically transmitted to God when you do. It is just information transmission and
reception that occurs.
If God does not receive your transmission as you die or are dying or slightly
before if you will be blow up in an accident, then you are dead at the time your
brain dies. Thus without the action of God in saving you,you are dead. By God not
receiving you and you not seeing the light of God at the time of your death, you
are dead forever.
Thus not one second passes at the time of death that an evil man goes to hell and
is gone forever. What then is the need for hell. The memory of the evil man such as
Hitler exists in the minds of the victims. The saved contain the memory of Hitler
in their poor minds. This has been picked up by God. It is now part of Gods mind.
This must be cleansed in the pit of hell. Thus God cleanses Gods mind of the evil
ones and the evil of human existence is the pit of hell which erases and turns all
evil thoughts into chaos.
Hell is something God suffers, not the individual because the God of LOVE does not
punish anyone. The God of love merely refuses to admit an evil man beyond this Earth.
Thus the pain and suffering of the evil ones end with their death. When Hitler pulled
the trigger or had someone do it for him, that was the end of Hitler and all that
had to be done was to rid the memory of Hitler from the transmissions of man forever.
In the end before we enter the new Earth, no knowledge of Hitler will be known by
the purified collective soul of man.

Facts Vs Feelings

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Dec 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/4/96

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On Sun, 01 Dec 1996 22:43:07 -0500, Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>
wrote:

>Facts Vs Feelings wrote:
<<Snip out the hypocrisy>>

>> >In Jesus Name,
>> >-- Malcolm Fraser
>>
>> What gall. Here I am reading your post in alt.religion.recovery and
>> you demand that someone else restrict their posts to non christian
>> groups? So you're saying that only xians can convert, only xians can
>> actively perform missionary type work? Typical xianish Hypocrisy.
>>

>> Read the bible? Soon as you read "The Book Your Church Doesn't Want
>> You To Read", edited by Tim C. Leedom.
>

>Comments from Jerry:
> Dear Malcom;
> Christians have been trying to convert Jews for two thousand years. Christians have
>destroyed the many tribal religions of the world. They have killed and conquered some
>of the most beautiful people with the most beautiful religions. They filled simple
>peoples, loving tribal peoples mind with fear and hate. Christians have attacked and
>attacked. They have forced their viewpoints on others at the point of a sword and a
>whip. They have not sought truth. They merely have by force of arms killed those who
>did not follow their man God concepts.

> Now we have a forum to discuss many ideas. The Christians have sinned before the

>world for 2000 years. On little Jew speaks up and suddenly I am supposed to go
>elsewhere. Where is there space that you do not own? You are continuing to attempt
>to convert the poor mind of the innocent into your vengeful and horrible God concepts.
>You have tortured to many poor innocent victims long enough.You religion has no basis
>in Judaism. It has no means of attachment to the tribal Jew.
> Christianity is one religion out of many. EAch individual has the choice of one
>religion or another. A man can be an atheist as well. It really doesn't matter since
>all men are treated the same in death. We are alive and we are dead and sad to say
>that is the fate of mankind. The dreams of eternal life and eternal hell are merely
>dreams. They have no basis in reality. Reincarnation is a different story since man
>can only really exist in a physical state.
> The dreams of Jesus are dreams. The dreams of others are dreams as well. We live
>today and perhaps hope that one dream or another is correct but we cannot base our
>life and our reality upon the dreams of dreamers long ago. We must move foward and
>realize that individual eternal life is a false dream.
> So much pain and so much tears are caused by those who preach hell. They do much
>more harm than good. They destroy the love of life that is ours to keep. Christians
>have done so much harm to others. Yet many are good people but they are victims of
>the dreams of long ago.
> I like to give the readers some truth to think about. The Christians care little
>for truth. They only want to satisfy their own fears.
>Jerry (Jewish Prophet of Truth and thought)

What are you REALLY trying to say. To my knowledge, jews do not
believe in heaven/hell. When one dies they are dust, according to
jewish doctrine, correct?

Since you have no reason to 'convert' (I've never seen a wordy jew
before) what is your point? You sound quite like a christian.

No offense meant of course. Are you trying to 'convince' people that
almost any belief is good, if it isn't the christian concept of god?

I'm an agnostic for lack of a better term. If there is a god(s) out
there/here I certainly hope it isn't the universial practical joker
that the right wing christians try to push on everyone.

Facts Vs Feelings?

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Dec 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/4/96

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On 26 Nov 1996 03:08:00 GMT, ka...@snowcrest.net (Karen McFarlin)
wrote:

>.....<<snip>>( Malcolm jabbering at Jerry)
>> You're quite entitled to spout your new-age spiritualist philosophies,
>> but don't make the mistake of trying to back them up with the Bible,
>> please.
>> ** Where do you get this stuff from? The Monster New-Age Philosophers
>> Fun Book?

>>
>> In Jesus Name,
>>
>> -- Malcolm Fraser
>

>The Bible (Old Testament) was written by the Hebrews, of course they're
>the heros of their own story! Dah! Who would be the heros of an Amalakite
>Bible? Or a Philistine Bible? This doesn't negate the value of their book,
>unless you forget that it was written by men who had a definite bias and
>start thinking that it's some sort of objective text which we should read
>literally and uncritically.
>
>People who don't agree with simple-minded fundamentalism or conservative
>interpretation of text aren't all "New Agers".
>
>The Christian God may have started out as a Hebrew tribal deity but He
>ended up being a kind of synthesis of many different unified abstractions,
>including Platonic idealism. God, in other words, evolves through the
>Classical and Hellenistic ages to emerge in the late Roman Empire as
>something vaguely resembling the fellow we all know and love.
>
>Cairns

"We all"? Nope, not I. Fundamental christianity has taught hate,
intollerance, tunnel vision and conversion or death as long as such
could be gotten away from.

Perhaps there is a god(s). If so this being has failed to introduce
itself to 'lil ole humble me.

Jerry

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Dec 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/4/96

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Comments from Jerry:
Sometimes modern man looks too hard for God. Take a walk in a flower garden and
look around. Take a trip to the top of a mountain and look around. Often God reveals
Godself in a simple manner to all peoples. You may call it nature but it is the
work of the mind of God.
Jerry (Jewish Prophet of God)
Free Book "The Natural God of Law, Love, and Truth"
Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>

Brad Grier

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Dec 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/6/96

to

> >>
> > They have not sought truth. They merely have by force of arms killed
those who
> >did not follow their man God concepts.
> >

My belief is that christians have gotten a bad rap, through the media, they
are shown as , child molesting, fascist, racsist, and overall ignorant.
whoever wrote the article above, forgot to mention, the thousands of
christians who have been slaughtered for their belief in God. I find every
other religions to be full of holes, never truly capturing one's soul. I
think all people have a belief in God..the biblical God that is. There are
christians out there who are kind, they might not agree with all that
society accepts, but that is because they BELIEVE. They have FAITH. When it
comes to Christianity I always here people saying how ignorant they are,
how they won't listen to anything any one else says. HYPOCRITES!! Many of
the people who claim this, will not give christianity a chance, they too
are stuck in what they believe! If your child was about to be hit by a fast
moving vehicle, would you not run onto the street to save him/her? This is
the attitude that christians have, they believe that the end is near, and
in their LOVE for man, they want to try to lead as many as they can to
jesus..give them a break, I don't see what is wrong with loving, they don't
hate sinners, they hate thier sin..

Allen Hall

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Dec 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/9/96

to

Live in love and peace? Didn't God, according to the Bible, tell Moses,
Joshua, David and others to go out and slaughter people, men,women,
children, even babies?

Facts Vs Feelings?

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Dec 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/9/96

to

On Wed, 04 Dec 1996 19:54:14 -0500, Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>
wrote:

>Facts Vs Feelings? wrote:

>> "We all"? Nope, not I. Fundamental christianity has taught hate,
>> intollerance, tunnel vision and conversion or death as long as such
>> could be gotten away from.
>>
>> Perhaps there is a god(s). If so this being has failed to introduce
>> itself to 'lil ole humble me.
>
>Comments from Jerry:
> Sometimes modern man looks too hard for God. Take a walk in a flower garden and
>look around. Take a trip to the top of a mountain and look around. Often God reveals
>Godself in a simple manner to all peoples. You may call it nature but it is the
>work of the mind of God.
>Jerry (Jewish Prophet of God)
>Free Book "The Natural God of Law, Love, and Truth"
>Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>

Don't agree Jerry. If there is a god(s), such a being(s) is a part of
nature, not the other way 'round.
Oh if, according to your belief, we are created in 'his' image, where
is 'his' toilet? This is a serious question Jer. If we've got it all
but the godhood, then said god must have one hell of a potty.

Facts Vs Feelings?

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Dec 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/9/96

to

On 6 Dec 1996 16:40:40 GMT, "Brad Grier" <bgr...@itv.ccinet.ab.ca>
wrote:

>My belief is that christians have gotten a bad rap, through the media, they
>are shown as , child molesting, fascist, racsist, and overall ignorant.

Christians have gotten a bad rap? 601 years of the inquisition will
do that. So will shooting abortion Dr's, receptionists, etc. Thats
not a 'bad rap' those be facts! And when a priest gets caught
molesting a child, you feel they shouldn't be........., you wouldn't
happen to be a priest would you?

>whoever wrote the article above, forgot to mention, the thousands of
>christians who have been slaughtered for their belief in God. I find every
>other religions to be full of holes, never truly capturing one's soul.

And I'm sure you're intimately familiar with 'all' other religions.
I'm sure you've read the objective dissertations written by fellow
belivers of the one real truth, christianity, and reluctantly
'converted'.

> I
>think all people have a belief in God..the biblical God that is.

Then you're naive.

> There are
>christians out there who are kind, they might not agree with all that
>society accepts,

Thats true, but then the question arises, are they 'true' christians?
Remember to be a 'true' christian one needs to attempt to convert all
the idiotic heathens one comes into contact with. You know, like
you're attempting now. Obviously you are a 'true' christian.

> but that is because they BELIEVE. They have FAITH. When it
>comes to Christianity I always here people saying how ignorant they are,
>how they won't listen to anything any one else says. HYPOCRITES!!

Bingo. The intollerant of christians are hypocrites.

>Many of
>the people who claim this, will not give christianity a chance,

And many more WERE christians. Until they freed their minds.

> they too
>are stuck in what they believe! If your child was about to be hit by a fast
>moving vehicle, would you not run onto the street to save him/her? This is
>the attitude that christians have,

Of course only real, good christans have this type of attitude. Is
that what you're hinting at?

> they believe that the end is near,

Really? This won't be the first time. And in the year 2000, when we
are still here, what will your battle cry be then? And make sure that
christian bunker is well sticked. Don't wanna run outta wine.

>and
>in their LOVE for man, they want to try to lead as many as they can to
>jesus..give them a break, I don't see what is wrong with loving, they don't
>hate sinners, they hate thier sin..

Yep, judgemental hypocrites. A sin is what a person does. An action.
An action effects others. If someone rapes your mom. you WILL
foregive him and hate the sin. And send the sin to the pokey.

Lets hope you never have to choose between that sin and the man that
performed it.

J. Michael Phillips

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Dec 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/9/96

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1D36...@pilot.infi.net> <32ac7938....@news.alt.net>
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

Do...@religion.funny (Facts Vs Feelings?) wrote:

. . . nothing but feelings . . . odd, no? Witness:

***snip***

>
>Don't agree Jerry. If there is a god(s), such a being(s) is a part of
>nature, not the other way 'round.

Those are your feelings. Where are the facts to support them?

>Oh if, according to your belief, we are created in 'his' *sic* image, where
>is 'his' *sic* toilet? This is a serious question Jer.

No it's not. You're being obsequious for purposes of obfuscation. I
find your disinginuity mildly annoying at best. Your past posts were
so fatuous, I couldn't believe you were writing in earnest. I thought
they were jokes. I'm beginning to understand that you are serious.
This worries me greatly. Any person who could take the name "Facts vs
Feelings," and then present precious few facts, and ignore the vast
majority of Christianity worrisome. Such facts bespeak a narrow
mindedness rarely equalled on this Earth.

>If we've got it all
>but the godhood, then said god must have one hell of a potty.

See what vain fatuity? This is an argument of "Fact vs Feelings?"
Apparently not . . . *sigh*

Jerry

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Dec 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/9/96

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Facts Vs Feelings? wrote:
>
> On Wed, 04 Dec 1996 19:54:14 -0500, Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Facts Vs Feelings? wrote:
>
> >> "We all"? Nope, not I. Fundamental christianity has taught hate,
> >> intollerance, tunnel vision and conversion or death as long as such
> >> could be gotten away from.
> >>
> >> Perhaps there is a god(s). If so this being has failed to introduce
> >> itself to 'lil ole humble me.
> >
> >Comments from Jerry:
> > Sometimes modern man looks too hard for God. Take a walk in a flower garden and
> >look around. Take a trip to the top of a mountain and look around. Often God reveals
> >Godself in a simple manner to all peoples. You may call it nature but it is the
> >work of the mind of God.
> >Jerry (Jewish Prophet of God)
> >Free Book "The Natural God of Law, Love, and Truth"
> >Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>
>

> Don't agree Jerry. If there is a god(s), such a being(s) is a part of
> nature, not the other way 'round.

> Oh if, according to your belief, we are created in 'his' image, where
> is 'his' toilet? This is a serious question Jer. If we've got it all

> but the godhood, then said god must have one hell of a potty.

Ans. We came from the will to exist within a large star in chaos. The
intelligence level was subliminal. Thus there was no feelings at this
level. The toilet of God is the reduction of the souls of the unworthy
back to chaos and the intelligence level being less than a single worm.
Thus the unworthy return from whence they came.
Jerry

Jerry

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Dec 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/9/96

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Yes. "I AM" is the little desert God of the Jews. This is a pluralistic
level of God which appears to all men in all different ways. In general
it is the purified collective soul of ones ancestors. This level of God
is in competition with all the other Gods of this Earth.
As we move upward we reach the God of LOVE, the God of the Universe. This'
level of god oversees the lower levels of God and insures that they move
upward from the animal toward higher humanity worthy of a new earth where
higher man will form.
Long before I AM was the collective God of the dinosaurs. This was even
a more horrible level of God but our evolved Gods of this earth require
the horrible forms of God in order to survive and grow from a will to
be to basic life and man. It is a horrible process of the survival of the
fitest and the production of God from a will to be within a star which
exploded to give birth to this solar system. This is not to be confused
with the God of the Universe which is a higher structure.
Jerry (Jewish Prophet of an evolved God)

Facts Vs Feelings?

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Dec 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/9/96

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On Mon, 09 Dec 1996 07:32:48 -0500, Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>
wrote:

>> Don't agree Jerry. If there is a god(s), such a being(s) is a part of
>> nature, not the other way 'round.
>> Oh if, according to your belief, we are created in 'his' image, where
>> is 'his' toilet? This is a serious question Jer. If we've got it all
>> but the godhood, then said god must have one hell of a potty.
>
>Ans. We came from the will to exist within a large star in chaos. The
>intelligence level was subliminal.

Poetic and meaningless. Words that sound good, maybe even pop out a
tear or two. Typical happy dogma.

>Thus there was no feelings at this
>level. The toilet of God is the reduction of the souls of the unworthy
>back to chaos and the intelligence level being less than a single worm.

And now I guess its up to you to tell everyone whom the 'unworthy'
are. If you're like your christian cousins, it'll be 'those that
don't think like me'. So, who is unworthy?

>Thus the unworthy return from whence they came.
>Jerry

And where is that? The large star or the large potty?
You sound an awful lot like a christian. So pious. So devout. So
full of chicken entrails.

In the words of Bertrand Russel, "Righteousness is what the church
approves, and unrighteousness is what it disapproves. Thus the
effective part of the concept of righteousness is a justification of
herd antipathy".

And "Bingo" was his nameo.

Buzzard

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Dec 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/9/96

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Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net> wrote:

>Dear Malcom:

> Will
>the ignorant Children be saved? The answer is yes. Thus in your ignorance you have
>nothing to worry about.

For by grace you have been saved through faith (in Jesus), and that
not of yourselves; it is the (free) gift of God.

Buzzard

*********************************************************************************
"It is a rare person who wants to hear what he doesn't want to hear"
DICK CAVETT
*********************************************************************************

Buzzard

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Dec 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/9/96

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Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net> wrote:

>Comments from Jerry:
> Sometimes modern man looks too hard for God. Take a walk in a flower garden and
>look around. Take a trip to the top of a mountain and look around. Often God reveals
>Godself in a simple manner to all peoples. You may call it nature but it is the
>work of the mind of God.
>Jerry (Jewish Prophet of God)
>Free Book "The Natural God of Law, Love, and Truth"
>Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>

God's creative hand is most evident in the "flower garden, mountain
top, nature" but it is Christ in me, not around me, that is the hope
of glory.

Jerry

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Dec 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/9/96

to

Facts Vs Feelings? wrote:
>
> On Mon, 09 Dec 1996 07:32:48 -0500, Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> Don't agree Jerry. If there is a god(s), such a being(s) is a part of
> >> nature, not the other way 'round.
> >> Oh if, according to your belief, we are created in 'his' image, where
> >> is 'his' toilet? This is a serious question Jer. If we've got it all
> >> but the godhood, then said god must have one hell of a potty.
> >
> >Ans. We came from the will to exist within a large star in chaos. The
> >intelligence level was subliminal.
>
> Poetic and meaningless. Words that sound good, maybe even pop out a
> tear or two. Typical happy dogma.
>
> >Thus there was no feelings at this
> >level. The toilet of God is the reduction of the souls of the unworthy
> >back to chaos and the intelligence level being less than a single worm.
>
> And now I guess its up to you to tell everyone whom the 'unworthy'
> are. If you're like your christian cousins, it'll be 'those that
> don't think like me'. So, who is unworthy?
>
> >Thus the unworthy return from whence they came.
> >Jerry
>
> And where is that? The large star or the large potty?
> You sound an awful lot like a christian. So pious. So devout. So
> full of chicken entrails.

> Ans. from Jerry:
I am not pious and not very devout. I am a rebuked Prophet with a difficult
nature of standing up to God and demanding truth. I am an Electrial
Engineer who didn't want this job but was forced into it.
One thing good about God is that God will produce higher man independent
of man. There is a distribution of people who will fill in the ranks of
the believers and a distribution of people who will not believe. All the
people, the believers and the nonbelievers perish in the process. thus
there is an equality of judgement for all men. The believer accepts God
and the memory of him in the mind of God becomes part of higher man upon
the new Earth. The nonbeliever dies and is no more. In neither case is the
man himself rewarded or punished. Thus salvation is more philosophical than
real and everyman dies and is no more.
You thus can choose not to believe and you will be treated the same as
the man who believes. You reject God and it really doesn't matter for you
will die and I will die and be no more.Yet God can choose to take the memory
of me in God's mind and convert it into a new me. However this is not me
it is really only a clone of me.
Man strives for God but God does not let man be God. It is all vanity
for God only grants eternal life to man, Gods creation in the first place.
Thus man will live beyond the stars but all of us will perish upon this
earth. The pious and the unpious both will meet the same fate.
Live and be happy as best as you can.Try to be kind to others and yourself
as well. Fear not death because it will come to all.
Jerry

Facts Vs Feelings?

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Dec 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/10/96

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On Mon, 09 Dec 1996 20:33:53 -0500, Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>
wrote:

Good gravey. I recommend that you have a few tubes of red cells drawn
and analyzed for ion imbalances. Or perhaps there's simply to much
roughage in your kibble. Clones? Of 'true believers'? A new age
jew. Fascinating. You die and if you believe in your god a clone is
created with your memories. Which isn't really you. Yet if one
doesn't believe in your god no such clone for him/her will be created.

Bizarre. Rebucked? No kidding. This would be hard for a 80 yr old
alcoholic with a liver the size of Texas, hasen't seen a sober day in
50 yrs, to swallow.

A reward for believing that isn't a reward.

> Man strives for God but God does not let man be God. It is all vanity
>for God only grants eternal life to man, Gods creation in the first place.
>Thus man will live beyond the stars but all of us will perish upon this
>earth. The pious and the unpious both will meet the same fate.
> Live and be happy as best as you can.Try to be kind to others and yourself
>as well. Fear not death because it will come to all.
>Jerry

Jer you state that you aren't pious. Yet you spend the time typing
out your.........visions here on the I-net. Preaching a soft sell.
Basicly saying we will all die whether we believe in god or not, the
believers are then cloned , and yet in some mystical future beyond
present personages, mankind will be a race of immortal clones.

Perhaps you should switch to fantasy. Roger Zelazney has a series
out, The Amber Series. Take your mind off your impending sainthood.

Jerry

unread,

Dec 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/10/96

ISBN 0-8403-8908-6
I got mine at a local book store. In the religion section.

Facts Vs Feelings

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Dec 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/10/96

to

On Wed, 04 Dec 1996 19:54:14 -0500, Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>
wrote:

>Facts Vs Feelings? wrote:
>> "We all"? Nope, not I. Fundamental christianity has taught hate,
>> intollerance, tunnel vision and conversion or death as long as such
>> could be gotten away from.
>>
>> Perhaps there is a god(s). If so this being has failed to introduce
>> itself to 'lil ole humble me.
>

>Comments from Jerry:
> Sometimes modern man looks too hard for God. Take a walk in a flower garden and
>look around. Take a trip to the top of a mountain and look around. Often God reveals
>Godself in a simple manner to all peoples. You may call it nature but it is the
>work of the mind of God.
>Jerry (Jewish Prophet of God)
>Free Book "The Natural God of Law, Love, and Truth"
>Jerry <sta...@pilot.infi.net>

I'm glad your so sure Jerry. Earthquakes, Famine, War, newborns
thrown in dumpsters, yeah your god reveals his presence in the
news/obituaries every day.