What hope do the pathetic have in a godless universe?

[scattered]

Greetings,

In a spirit of charity, here is some ammuntition that people can feel
free to use if they want to use an ad-hominem attack on me at any time
in the future: I have struggled with mental illness for over 30 years
and have been hospitalized at least 6 times over the years. I have no
real complaint with how my life has turned out, though I suspect that
I would have gone further in life if I wasn't hobbled with being
bipolar.

In any event, I frequently go to a support group sponsored by the
Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance ( http://www.dbsalliance.org/
). An interesting group of people tend to attend these meetings. A
couple of observations that I've made:

1) Religious faith is almost universal in such support groups. Not
just nominal faith - most of the people have lives in which religion
plays a dominant role.

2) They seem to really need it.

I'm on the high-functioning side, as are several of the regular
attenders. But some of the people have lives which are just ruined,
and they know it. For example, one man in his 50s has never worked a
day in his life due to frequent bouts of psychosis which first hit him
as a teenager. He has been hospitalized literally dozens of times and
has permanent neurological damage due to a life-time of antipsychotic
medications (which is the only thing which keeps away auditory
hallucinations which sometimes urge him to commit suicide). He simply
won't be cured and he knows it, and is terrified about what will
become of him when his mother dies (he still lives at home). Another
example is a young woman who was a straight-A biology major as an
undergraduate but who had a completely unanticipated major manic
episode in her first year of medical school and has been in and out of
hospitals for the last several years. She clearly has potential and
can still maybe do something with her life, but being a doctor is
almost certainly out of the equation.

I could multiply such exaples ad nauseum - many are even worse. Most
of these people hold onto their faith in God as a lifeline. It is
their reason to not commit suicide. Their faith is highly adaptive in
their circumstances. In these meetings I keep my skepticism to myself
since I don't want to undermine what is in some cases the only thing
which is keeping them alive.

On the other hand - many of the people report feeling constantly
judged in their churches. The christian church (as a whole - there are
exceptions) doesn't have a good track record in dealing with mental
illness since there is a tendency to think that if someone were
*really* a believer then such mental problems would vanish and be
replaced with "the peace that passeth understanding." So many of the
people in these support groups are in the difficult position of
depending on something which ito some extend rejects them.

Is there any secular alternative to faith for the truly desperate?

-scattered

[Bridge]

On Nov 21, 8:03 am, scattered <still.scatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> In a spirit of charity, here is some ammuntition that people can feel
> free to use if they want to use an ad-hominem attack on me at any time
> in the future: I have struggled with mental illness for over 30 years
> and have been hospitalized at least 6 times over the years. I have no
> real complaint with how my life has turned out, though I suspect that
> I would have gone further in life if I wasn't hobbled with being
> bipolar.
>
> In any event, I frequently go to a support group sponsored by the

> Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance (http://www.dbsalliance.org/

Zen Buddhists are atheists.

This http://www.cetr.net/modules.php?file=article&name=News&sid=166 is
a link to a secular society. I googled secular mysticism.

To be clear, scattered, I *believe* that the "good" people get out of
religion can be had secularly.

Good luck and thanks for sharing.

[scattered]

Dialectical Behavioral Therapy is an approach to therapy which
explicitly incorporates meditation and mindfulness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_behavior_therapy

I have had some experience with it (one of the reasons for my coolness
towards meditation) and it has been discussed numerous times in the
DBSA meetings that I attend. A couple of the regular attenders swear
by it - but these tend to be people who were already high-functioning.
The more serious cases who have tried it report very little success. I
can see how there is secular help for the "walking wounded" - but I'm
not sure what alternatives are available for the truly devastated.

> Good luck and thanks for sharing.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Bridge]

On Nov 21, 9:01 am, scattered <still.scatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dialectical Behavioral Therapy is an approach to therapy which
> explicitly incorporates meditation and mindfulness:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_behavior_therapy
>
> I have had some experience with it (one of the reasons for my coolness
> towards meditation) and it has been discussed numerous times in the
> DBSA meetings that I attend. A couple of the regular attenders swear
> by it - but these tend to be people who were already high-functioning.
> The more serious cases who have tried it report very little success. I
> can see how there is secular help for the "walking wounded" - but I'm
> not sure what alternatives are available for the truly devastated.

I'm sure there's an answer out there somewhere. What were your
experiences like with DBT?

[Michele Gennette]

>Is there any secular alternative to faith for the truly desperate? >-scattered

No.   xnun

[Michele Gennette]

--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Bridge <bqs4...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The more serious cases who have tried it report very little success. I > can see how there is secular help for the "walking wounded" - but I'm > not sure what alternatives are available for the truly devastated.

Which accounts for the fact that psychiatrists have the highest suicide rate in the medical field.   xnun

[Joe]

On Nov 21, 9:36 am, Bridge <bqs4l...@gmail.com> wrote:

>

> Zen Buddhists are atheists.
>

Necessarily? Why?

[Joe]

On Nov 21, 9:03 am, scattered <still.scatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> In a spirit of charity, here is some ammuntition that people can feel
> free to use if they want to use an ad-hominem attack on me at any time
> in the future: I have struggled with mental illness for over 30 years
> and have been hospitalized at least 6 times over the years. I have no
> real complaint with how my life has turned out, though I suspect that
> I would have gone further in life if I wasn't hobbled with being
> bipolar.
>

Interesting use of sarcasm there, but you know ad hominem attacks are
disallowed in this group, right? And charity would preclude them
anyway.

Anyway, I was diagnosed with bipolar, along with a host of other
diagnoses. I begged God in prayer to apply the fasting and prayer
done by a good priest to my case, for the removal of demons from me.
Shortly afterward, that happened, and subsequently, I removed myself
from the mental health system and from the use of psychiatric
medications. There has not been a relapse, in about thirteen years.

> In any event, I frequently go to a support group sponsored by the

> Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance (http://www.dbsalliance.org/

I can't speak for all Christians, but I can say that in general,
Christians are similar to most other people, in that they tend to fear
and judge with they do not understand. And no one understands so-
called "mental illness." (Including doctors.)

The reality of such things is that they are manifestations of demonic
attacks, and that many of the Saints were subject to them. So it is
not true that *really believing* is an automatic shield against them.
Some Saints were bothered by them to a certain extent for their entire
lives, which was suffering for them, which God translates into merit.
Jesus said of certain types of demons that "this kind is not cast out
but by prayer and fasting." (Matthew 17:20, Mark 9:28).

> Is there any secular alternative to faith for the truly desperate?
>

There is no alternative to faith, period. Scripture says that
"without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to
God must believe that he is: and is a rewarder to them that seek
him." (Hebrews 11:6)

That is, if you seek to please God. With regard to "mental illness,"
the medications provide somewhat of a band-aid, but not a cure. (The
analogy is that it is like putting a band-aid on a broken arm.)
Therapy can help a person to recognize their own inadequate coping
strategies and replace them with better ones, but therapy cannot touch
the root of severe so-called "mental illness," which is in reality not
primarily mental but rather spiritual. So if you are a person who,
for example, is subject to outbursts of anger because you learned by
experience as a child that such outbursts help you to get what you
want, then counseling can help you by giving you a better way of
seeking what you want. But if you have uncontrollable bursts of anger
that do not appear connected to any cause, then perhaps it is the
spiritual problem I have mentioned above, and thus counseling would
not help. In such a case, what you need is for God to remove the
demons, and some kinds only come out through much prayer and fasting
by a Roman Catholic priest. You can ask God to use some priest who
authentically prays and fasts, and apply his prayer and fasting to
you. In my experience, that works when nothing else will.

[scattered]

On Nov 21, 3:29 pm, Joe <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 9:03 am, scattered <still.scatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Greetings,
>
> > In a spirit of charity, here is some ammuntition that people can feel
> > free to use if they want to use an ad-hominem attack on me at any time
> > in the future: I have struggled with mental illness for over 30 years
> > and have been hospitalized at least 6 times over the years. I have no
> > real complaint with how my life has turned out, though I suspect that
> > I would have gone further in life if I wasn't hobbled with being
> > bipolar.
>
> Interesting use of sarcasm there, but you know ad hominem attacks are
> disallowed in this group, right?  

That is the theory, and, mostly, the practice

> And charity would preclude them
> anyway.
>
> Anyway, I was diagnosed with bipolar, along with a host of other
> diagnoses.  I begged God in prayer to apply the fasting and prayer
> done by a good priest to my case, for the removal of demons from me.
> Shortly afterward, that happened, and subsequently, I removed myself
> from the mental health system and from the use of psychiatric
> medications.  There has not been a relapse, in about thirteen years.
>

Good for you, but don't assume that you are out of the woods forever.
I had a remission for about 13 years, from the time I had a conversion
experience when I was 17 until I was 30. I was 100% convinced that I
was "cured" and didn't have to worry about anything. In fact, I had
long ceased to worry about it and was intellectually convinced that
Thomas Szasz was correct in his "The Myth of Mental Illness". But
then, with no warning and no real crisis to trigger it, I discovered
that some myths refuse to die. The greatest surprise in my life since
it turned my autobiography upside down.

Why the scare quotes? Why the pessimism? Bipolar is not completely
understood, but then neither is Parkinson's Disease. Did Pope John
Paul II die of Parkinson's Disease or "Parkinson's Disease"?

> The reality of such things is that they are manifestations of demonic
> attacks,

How do you know this? It certainly isn't Catholic Dogma. Doesn't it
strike you as odd that, in your view, certain patterns of demonic
attack have the property that if one identical twin is subject to that
attack then with very high probably the other is as well, even if they
are raised in separate households, and that this *isn't* true, to
anywhere near the same extend, for fraternal twins? Does it strike you
as strange that certain types of demonic attacks go into remission
with Lithium but are made worse with Prozac? Why should a purely
spiritual demon care what type of molecule is being ingested by the
attackee?

> and that many of the Saints were subject to them.  So it is
> not true that *really believing* is an automatic shield against them.
> Some Saints were bothered by them to a certain extent for their entire
> lives, which was suffering for them, which God translates into merit.
> Jesus said of certain types of demons that "this kind is not cast out
> but by prayer and fasting." (Matthew 17:20, Mark 9:28).
>
> > Is there any secular alternative to faith for the truly desperate?
>
> There is no alternative to faith, period.  Scripture says that
> "without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to
> God must believe that he is: and is a rewarder to them that seek
> him." (Hebrews 11:6)
>
> That is, if you seek to please God.  With regard to "mental illness,"
> the medications provide somewhat of a band-aid, but not a cure.  

Again - why the square quotes and why the pessimism? Some people find
that their bipolar is kept in a state of complete remission with the
right medications and that they are able to function exactly as before
they started getting symptoms (alas - I am not like that). The
analogious thing is *not* true for bandaids and broken arms (you can't
play frisbee with a broken arm if all you do is put a band aid on it -
so your analogy is deeply flawed.

> (The analogy is that it is like putting a band-aid on a broken arm.)
> Therapy can help a person to recognize their own inadequate coping
> strategies and replace them with better ones, but therapy cannot touch
> the root of severe so-called "mental illness," which is in reality not
> primarily mental but rather spiritual.  

And how do you know this? Why do you even believe it? The Catholic
Church's position is substantially more nuanced than that.

> So if you are a person who,
> for example, is subject to outbursts of anger because you learned by
> experience as a child that such outbursts help you to get what you
> want, then counseling can help you by giving you a better way of
> seeking what you want.  But if you have uncontrollable bursts of anger
> that do not appear connected to any cause, then perhaps it is the
> spiritual problem I have mentioned above, and thus counseling would
> not help.  In such a case, what you need is for God to remove the
> demons, and some kinds only come out through much prayer and fasting
> by a Roman Catholic priest.  You can ask God to use some priest who
> authentically prays and fasts, and apply his prayer and fasting to
> you.  In my experience, that works when nothing else will

I'm glad that your experience has been positive there - but beware of
generalizing on the basis of limited examples. I'd be surprised if any
study showed that the incidence of bipolar among orthodox Catholics is
any lower than among the general population.

[scattered]

[snip]

> Again - why the square quotes and why the pessimism?

[snip]

From the typo in the above line you can infer that I learned to read
via the phonetic approach as opposed to the "whole word" approach
which goes in and out of fashion

[ornamentalmind]

“… And no one understands so-called "mental illness."…” – TC

“…The reality of such things is that they are manifestations of
demonic attacks,…” – TC

An interesting juxtaposition of opinions Joe.

“…There is no alternative to faith, period….” – TC

As much as I understand your basis for such a belief, I find such
proclamations of truth by fiat to miss the opportunity for countless
other options.

> you.  In my experience, that works when nothing else will.- Hide quoted text -

[Redshirt Bluejacket]

This does not prove the truth of any religious view, merely that such
views are useful for coralling populations.... much like the belief
that a dollar bill has some intrinsic value because of the printing on
the paper instead of what backs it -- or the idea that the President
is legitimate because he is the President....

Even if it is deemed a proof of a spiritual character to the Universe,
the collective need for belief also is useless for proving the
correctness of any theistic faith -- because people born into
different faiths each find solace in their own (and get nothing from
the others), this only increases the likelihood that the true
spiritual underpinning of the Universe is in none of the faiths
commonly practiced, but only in an underlying force that permits all
such faiths to seem real to their own adherents -- thus, pandeism ....

[Michele Gennette]

--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Joe <thelemic...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Anyway, I was diagnosed with bipolar, along with a host of other >diagnoses.  I begged God in prayer to apply the fasting and prayer >done by a good priest to my case, for the removal of demons from me. >Shortly afterward, that happened, and subsequently, I removed myself >from the mental health system and from the use of psychiatric >medications.  There has not been a relapse, in about thirteen years.

Good for you.  I had a similar experience, but my post traumatic stress disorder was diagnosed as bipolar.  I did experience a genuine attempt at demonic possession during the ordeal, as well as a genuine sense of a divine presence.   xnun

[Bridge]

I might be full of sh!t. I think I heard that in a History of Feudal
Japan class in college.

[Bridge]

Yes. Ha! No tag backs! ;-)

>
>   xnun

[Brock Organ]

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 9:03 AM, scattered <still.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In a spirit of charity, here is some ammuntition that people can feel
> free to use if they want to use an ad-hominem attack on me at any time
> in the future: I have struggled with mental illness for over 30 years
> and have been hospitalized at least 6 times over the years.

I'm sorry to hear of your struggle. :(

> I could multiply such exaples ad nauseum - many are even worse. Most
> of these people hold onto their faith in God as a lifeline. It is
> their reason to not commit suicide. Their faith is highly adaptive in
> their circumstances. In these meetings I keep my skepticism to myself
> since I don't want to undermine what is in some cases the only thing
> which is keeping them alive.

I commend you, it is thoughtful and considerate to keep what you
perceive is their interest in mind when you engage them.

> On the other hand - many of the people report feeling constantly
> judged in their churches. The christian church (as a whole - there are
> exceptions) doesn't have a good track record in dealing with mental
> illness

That's a bit simplistic, perhaps. Very few people in the general
public (such as those who make up the average local visible church)
have the ability that trained health professionals have. And even
trained health professionals in that industry face serious burn out
and stress-related issues in handling these problems in a long-term
and sustainable manner.

So I want to affirm a respect for those who have frustrations and
feelings of rejection over this; but I also want to offer a hopefully
balancing if sobering perspective: these problems are serious and its
not often that people in general society are able to compassionately
extend the support that can be required to help folks facing their
burden.

I'll share a story that shows the challenges of interacting with those
in need; just this past friday night I was at a local chinese
eat-in/take-out restaurant, and nearby a customer unexpectedly
collapsed and fell to the ground, breaking furniture in the process.
I happened to be close by, and went over to check on him and to help.

As I interacted with him and he struggled to get up, the natural thing
for me to do seemed to be to offer a hand to help him up. So I
offered, and after a slight pause, it was clear that my physical help
wasn't the right answer at that moment. So I stood by awkwardly while
he struggled to get to his feet on his own. After he was able to get
up and sit comfortably on a chair and recover, he explained to me how
a tragic recent health problem (he had been electrocuted six months
ago) had caused severe injuries to both of his shoulders and had made
his legs prone to unexpected weakness. Had I or anyone else tried to
physically help him up by grabbing a hand and tugging hard on his
shoulders to help lift him up we could've seriously hurt and
aggravated his shoulder problem. :(

So I ended up just sitting near him and we talked casually for a time;
when he felt better and his ride arrived, he was able to leave the
restaurant and was ok.

I'm sure it was a sad and painful experience for him; he was
embarrassed at the public nature of the fall, he was ashamed to have
been physically weak, and he could've been seriously hurt; had I or
another person standing by been overly forceful to try to "help", we
could've easily caused him even worse hurt! :(

So matching those with special needs with those who are able to help
is a significant issue in society in general. My thoughts and prayers
go out to those carrying deep burdens who find it hard to connect with
compassionate support and care.

Regards,

Brock

[showmethehoney]

how do you determine if something is a result of prayer? have all your
prayers been answered? i remember reading a story about a group of
nuns who were down in florida at a convention. they gathered before
their journey home to pray for a safe trip. several hours into the
ride they were hit by a truck and all killed. does 'god' select which
prayers 'he' is going to answer? if so, why not save a bus load a
those doing 'his' work? i just want to thank 'god' for not taking our
nun. where would we be without her? ;-)

[Tracey]

On Nov 24, 6:24 am, showmethehoney <alenasha...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> how do you determine if something is a result of prayer? have all your
> prayers been answered? i remember reading a story about a group of
> nuns who were down in florida at a convention. they gathered before
> their journey home to pray for a safe trip. several hours into the
> ride they were hit by a truck and all killed. does 'god' select which
> prayers 'he' is going to answer? if so, why not save a bus load a
> those doing 'his' work? i just want to thank 'god' for not taking our
> nun. where would we be without her?  ;-)

Not all prayers are answered because of this:

James 4:3, “When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with
wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures”

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[showmethehoney]

asking for a safe ride home is the wrong motive?

[Michele Gennette]

--- On Tue, 11/24/09, showmethehoney <alena...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> several hours into the ride they were hit by a truck and all killed.

Sometimes the elect are better off out of this life.

>does 'god' select which prayers 'he' is going to answer?

He answers all prayers, as He sees best.

> i just want to thank 'god' for not taking our nun. where would we be without her?  ;-)

Bored.  I'm still useful in this life, dealing with recalcitrants like you :)    xnun

[showmethehoney]

so, whose guideance or authority should i adhere to?

On Nov 24, 4:50 pm, Michele Gennette <xnun2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Michele Gennette]

--- On Tue, 11/24/09, showmethehoney <alena...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>so, whose guideance or authority should i adhere to?

That's like a plant asking if the sun is relevant in its life. I pray.  You should try it.   xnun

[showmethehoney]

i'll take a rain cheque on that proposal. you are 'god'. why not just
ask yourself?

On Nov 24, 8:03 pm, Michele Gennette <xnun2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Tracey]

On Nov 24, 1:02 pm, showmethehoney <alenasha...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> asking for a safe ride home is the wrong motive?

No, it's up to the driver to drive safely. Accidents do happen,
however and that's according to the current laws of nature.

[showmethehoney]

please get back to the topic of prayer...

[Joe]

I think it is legit to say they are atheists with the same meaning
that we say scientists are atheists. They are not necessarily so, but
science doesn't deal with God.

[Joe]

On Nov 21, 4:19 pm, scattered <still.scatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 3:29 pm, Joe <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 9:03 am, scattered <still.scatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Greetings,
>
> > > In a spirit of charity, here is some ammuntition that people can feel
> > > free to use if they want to use an ad-hominem attack on me at any time
> > > in the future: I have struggled with mental illness for over 30 years
> > > and have been hospitalized at least 6 times over the years. I have no
> > > real complaint with how my life has turned out, though I suspect that
> > > I would have gone further in life if I wasn't hobbled with being
> > > bipolar.
>
> > Interesting use of sarcasm there, but you know ad hominem attacks are
> > disallowed in this group, right?  
>
> That is the theory, and, mostly, the practice> And charity would preclude them
> > anyway.
>
> > Anyway, I was diagnosed with bipolar, along with a host of other
> > diagnoses.  I begged God in prayer to apply the fasting and prayer
> > done by a good priest to my case, for the removal of demons from me.
> > Shortly afterward, that happened, and subsequently, I removed myself
> > from the mental health system and from the use of psychiatric
> > medications.  There has not been a relapse, in about thirteen years.
>
> Good for you, but don't assume that you are out of the woods forever.

I don't assume, I believe.

> I had a remission for about 13 years, from the time I had a conversion
> experience when I was 17 until I was 30. I was 100% convinced that I
> was "cured" and didn't have to worry about anything. In fact, I had
> long ceased to worry about it and was intellectually convinced that
> Thomas Szasz was correct in his "The Myth of Mental Illness". But
> then, with no warning and no real crisis to trigger it, I discovered
> that some myths refuse to die. The greatest surprise in my life since
> it turned my autobiography upside down.
>

I do not say there is no such thing as what is labeled "mental
illness." I simply maintain that the label is not accurate.

They indicate that the use of the term is somewhat of a misnomer.

>Why the pessimism?

Not pessimism, realism. I am the eternal optimist, but I still don't
believe that to kick a dead horse will make him get up.

>Bipolar is not completely
> understood, but then neither is Parkinson's Disease. Did Pope John
> Paul II die of Parkinson's Disease or "Parkinson's Disease"?
>

Parkinson's Disease is neurological, and thus falls under the purview
of medicine. "Bipolar," not so much. If the cause of "bipolar
disorder" were strictly neurological, there would be a cure by now, or
at least some hope of a cure.

> > The reality of such things is that they are manifestations of demonic
> > attacks,
>
> How do you know this? It certainly isn't Catholic Dogma.

Um, yes it is, actually, though you would be hard pressed these days
to find a priest willing to admit to the dogma. There is huge social
pressure to embrace psychiatry, and additionally, to embrace
psychiatry, if legitimate, would relieve priests of their
responsibility to pray and fast.

>Doesn't it
> strike you as odd that, in your view, certain patterns of demonic
> attack have the property that if one identical twin is subject to that
> attack then with very high probably the other is as well, even if they
> are raised in separate households, and that this *isn't* true, to
> anywhere near the same extend, for fraternal twins?

Genetic predisposition is a factor, and identical twins have identical
genetic makeup, so, no, it doesn't strike me as odd in the least. It
would be more odd to discover that there *wasn't* that connection,
don't you think?

>Does it strike you
> as strange that certain types of demonic attacks go into remission
> with Lithium but are made worse with Prozac?

No, there are neurological and chemical factors.

>Why should a purely
> spiritual demon care what type of molecule is being ingested by the
> attackee?
>

What is your idea of a pure spirit that can affect the physical
world? Would there be a method for doing so, or are you assuming that
any pure spirit is automatically just as omnipotent as God?

We are spirits, and we affect the physical world via methods. So
that, for example, if we wish to knock down a wall, it is significant
to us whether the wall is made of gypsum, concrete, or steel.
Assuming that pure spirits are *not* God, and thus not omnipotent,
don't you imagine they would be limited in certain ways? In such a
case, if they desires to affect the central nervous system of a human
being, they would need to take into account neurological and chemical
considerations.

> > and that many of the Saints were subject to them.  So it is
> > not true that *really believing* is an automatic shield against them.
> > Some Saints were bothered by them to a certain extent for their entire
> > lives, which was suffering for them, which God translates into merit.
> > Jesus said of certain types of demons that "this kind is not cast out
> > but by prayer and fasting." (Matthew 17:20, Mark 9:28).
>
> > > Is there any secular alternative to faith for the truly desperate?
>
> > There is no alternative to faith, period.  Scripture says that
> > "without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to
> > God must believe that he is: and is a rewarder to them that seek
> > him." (Hebrews 11:6)
>
> > That is, if you seek to please God.  With regard to "mental illness,"
> > the medications provide somewhat of a band-aid, but not a cure.  
>
> Again - why the square quotes and why the pessimism? Some people find
> that their bipolar is kept in a state of complete remission with the
> right medications and that they are able to function exactly as before
> they started getting symptoms (alas - I am not like that).

I don't think anyone in whom their "bipolar" is merely treated as
opposed to cured experiences functioning "exactly as before." When a
demon attacks a human being, there is always suffering involved. If
medication prevents the demon from crippling the human being, that
does not necessarily remove the fact of suffering. If the demon is
still there, the human being is still suffering.

>The
> analogious thing is *not* true for bandaids and broken arms (you can't
> play frisbee with a broken arm if all you do is put a band aid on it -
> so your analogy is deeply flawed.
>

Since a band-aid cannot possibly heal a broken arm, the analogy is apt
at least that far.

> > (The analogy is that it is like putting a band-aid on a broken arm.)
> > Therapy can help a person to recognize their own inadequate coping
> > strategies and replace them with better ones, but therapy cannot touch
> > the root of severe so-called "mental illness," which is in reality not
> > primarily mental but rather spiritual.  
>
> And how do you know this?

Both Catholic Doctrine and my own experience.

>Why do you even believe it?

See above.

>The Catholic
> Church's position is substantially more nuanced than that.
>

Elucidate.

> > So if you are a person who,
> > for example, is subject to outbursts of anger because you learned by
> > experience as a child that such outbursts help you to get what you
> > want, then counseling can help you by giving you a better way of
> > seeking what you want.  But if you have uncontrollable bursts of anger
> > that do not appear connected to any cause, then perhaps it is the
> > spiritual problem I have mentioned above, and thus counseling would
> > not help.  In such a case, what you need is for God to remove the
> > demons, and some kinds only come out through much prayer and fasting
> > by a Roman Catholic priest.  You can ask God to use some priest who
> > authentically prays and fasts, and apply his prayer and fasting to
> > you.  In my experience, that works when nothing else will
>
> I'm glad that your experience has been positive there - but beware of
> generalizing on the basis of limited examples. I'd be surprised if any
> study showed that the incidence of bipolar among orthodox Catholics is
> any lower than among the general population.
>

I am talking about the reality of so-called mental illnesses and the
reality of what heals them.

In a larger sense, I believe that the authentic practice of
Catholicism is the cure for all mankind's ills. This may seem
simplistic, but I think things are really that simple. What
Catholicism is intended to cure, is sin, and sin is the ultimate root
of all human suffering. My friend George says that before Adam and
Eve fell, they did not experience any suffering at all, not even a
mosquito bite.

[Joe]

On Nov 21, 9:34 pm, ornamentalmind <ornamentalmind...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> “… And no one understands so-called "mental illness."…” – TC
>
> “…The reality of such things is that they are manifestations of
> demonic attacks,…” – TC
>
> An interesting juxtaposition of opinions Joe.
>

You see some contradiction between them?

> “…There is no alternative to faith, period….” – TC
>
> As much as I understand your basis for such a belief, I find such
> proclamations of truth by fiat to miss the opportunity for countless
> other options.
>

Such as. . .?

[Joe]

On Nov 24, 9:24 am, showmethehoney <alenasha...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> how do you determine if something is a result of prayer?

Why is such a determination necessary? Why not, instead, simply pray
unceasingly, and then attribute *everything* to prayer? Is there
anything good that God wouldn't do?

> have all your
> prayers been answered?

I believe all my prayers have been heard. If by answered, you mean
that my will was done as a result of prayer, no, I don't think that is
the case, since my will is not always God's Will. But when we pray,
we are instructed to pray, "THY Will be done," not, "MY will be done."

> i remember reading a story about a group of
> nuns who were down in florida at a convention. they gathered before
> their journey home to pray for a safe trip. several hours into the
> ride they were hit by a truck and all killed. does 'god' select which
> prayers 'he' is going to answer? if so, why not save a bus load a
> those doing 'his' work?

What makes you think He didn't save them?

[showmethehoney]

'god' doesnt *do* anything to govern life on the planet, and i am
rather surprised that you hold that opinion. are you a puppet or do
you have free will?

i personally dont believe in prayer but if you do, do it incessantly,
although i dont know how this allows you to concentrate on your job,
spend quality time with your family, or drive your car without getting
in an accident (you know, something like text messaging while
driving? ;-)

so 'god' killed all of the nuns to save them? wow, you like to stretch
your imagination dont you? ;-)

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Tracey]

On Nov 25, 7:48 am, showmethehoney <alenasha...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> please get back to the topic of prayer...

You were talking about praying for a safe ride home and I answered
that. Do you have any other questions? If so, create some subjects for
them.

[Joe]

On Nov 25, 6:10 pm, showmethehoney <alenasha...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> 'god' doesnt *do* anything to govern life on the planet, and i am
> rather surprised that you hold that opinion.

I am a little surprised that you're surprised.

You know I believe in God, right?

>are you a puppet or do
> you have free will?
>

That is an interesting question. How would you answer it? Eliminate
the "puppet" option, that poisons the well unnecessarily. Do you have
free will?

I submit that free will implies substance dualism, and the
contrapositive, physicalism precludes free will. I don't think the
case can be made for physicalism AND free will.

I am a substance dualist. I think our souls are real entities, and I
think we do have free will.

Now all that having been said, my having free will does not contradict
God's control of everything. God knows what decisions I will make,
and uses them in His Plan. God can use both good and evil to bring
about good. So the choice of good or evil does not fall outside of
God's intention, though the choice of evil falls outside of God's
commandment. God commands what is good, and He knows that some will
reject His commandment, and He uses them in His Plan as He sees fit.
So we may freely choose good or evil, that is, we may freely choose to
co-operate or to rebel against God. But we cannot actually defeat
God, since He is God, after all.

> i personally dont believe in prayer but if you do, do it incessantly,
> although i dont know how this allows you to concentrate on your job,
> spend quality time with your family, or drive your car without getting
> in an accident (you know, something like text messaging while
> driving? ;-)
>

Why would you recommend that I do stupid things? Are you trying
backhandedly to discredit prayer? Are you implying that, since anyone
who prays must pray "incessantly," and since to pray incessantly would
preclude any attention to anything else in life, therefore no one
should pray? That seems to be your logic here.

Your argument fails on several counts. First, we were not commanded
to pray "incessantly," but rather, "unceasingly." I believe the
difference is the same as that between continuously and continually.
To do something continuously means never to let up for a moment. To
do something continually means to keep repeating it. It seems to me,
to pray incessantly would mean never to let up for a moment, not even
to breathe, which is what you seem to imply with your use of it
above. But to pray unceasingly, as we were commanded to do, would
mean to keep praying, i.e. to make a habit of prayer. To pray every
day for the rest of your life qualifies as unceasing.

Secondly, and more importantly, the highest form of prayer is known as
infused contemplation. It is called infused because it is something
God does to us, not something we do ourselves. And as something God
does to us, and for us, it requires no effort at all on our part. One
in the state of infused contemplation is completely absorbed in God,
but not necessarily in any kind of a trance state. It is the
difference between the Samadhi that comes from intense concentration,
on the one hand, which requires trance, and on the other hand, the
"perennial formless samadhi," called sahaj samadhi I believe, which
requires no trance. Christian prayer does not require us to enter
unnatural states. So a person could concentrate on his job, spend
time with his family, drive his car, etc., all the while absorbed in
the deepest level of prayer, without loss of concentration. God is
*that* *good*!

> so 'god' killed all of the nuns to save them? wow, you like to stretch
> your imagination dont you? ;-)
>

Since salvation means to be in heaven forever, it would seem that to
be saved, one must die.

You meant, spare them from physical death, but for whom does God do
that?

[showmethehoney]

believing in 'god' and thinking that 'he' has daily input into the
goings on of the planet are two entirely different things.

im not trying to backhand prayer, im just suggesting it doesnt work.
you say you pray constantly, i was simply making light of the
situation and suggesting you dont do so while trying to perform other
less noble tasks ;-)

your interpretation of 'god' is entirely different than mine. i dont
think that 'god' takes note of your decisions and incorporates them
into 'his' plan. that seems ludicrous.

according to my knowledge of xtianity, one gets saved when they
confess belief in jesus. from all i know, this doesnt mean one has to
die in a bus crash in the prime of ones life. we are all going to die
physically, so suggesting 'god' saved them by killing them is far
fetched at best.

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Michele Gennette]

--- On Fri, 11/27/09, showmethehoney <alena...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>believing in 'god' and thinking that 'he' has daily input into the

>goings on of the planet are two entirely different things.

If you substitute  Google techie for God, and Google for the planet, YOUR premise faila.    xnun

[ornamentalmind]

“You see some contradiction between them?” – TC

That is how they appear to me, yes.

“Such as. . .?” – TC

One glib response is:
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1ACGWCENUS320&q=what+are+alternatives+to+faith+based+religions%3F&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Other less glib ones include: wisdom, knowledge, gnosis…

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -