About Homosexuality
belalady
Perhaps I can be of use in the debate (not especially about mariage),
on this very complex subject where everyone often has a different
opinion, and where people often come to forums giving my viewpoint on
the question to those who read me, without any pretensions on my part.
I hope that this will also interest women, who want to have an opinion
to understand why it is sometimes so difficult for them, in our
societies, to find love, which when it is sincere should normally lead,
in my opinion, to marriage and children when possible and to a happy
maternal and family life for them. An opinion that they need and want
to have on the male sex, concerning a subject on which men themselves
often disagree, because men ask themselves the same question, a subject
that seems as old as humanity.
The supposed specialists, who inform and influence us by educating us
and often damage us -- I am talking about the media -- never make this
point (perhaps they do not have the right). That is, it is in our
'civilized' countries, with a white majority, where there are the most
homosexuals. In the under-developed countries, where the local
political leaders are not as strong as ours, and therefore not as
powerful, this does not occur. It is incredible and astounding to see
how, in debates on the television or radio discussing the subject by
pretending to say everything, with no taboos and leaving nothing out,
these guests can split hairs for so long and manage to talk for hours
without mentioning this fact. What hypocrisy. The important thing is
not to hide our heads in the sand and pretend not to see what is
perfectly obvious.
More than half of some American cities are homosexual, it appears.
People in the third world, who live or come from poor or underdeveloped
countries, say so proudly. Here at home, we do not have homosexuals, or
at least not as many. You, you have lots. So, as we are apparently
facing a well-established phenomenon that is not the result of chance,
we must try to understand why, and I immediately state that it would be
too pretentious on my behalf to say that I am certain of knowing the
answer.
For me, at least some of the answer has supernatural causes. Since
ancient Greece, which was a great civilization, or decadent Rome,
people have written that there was a link between power and
homosexuality. Some people thus wrote that when some men who were not
homosexuals, heterosexuals as some say by managing to introduce the
mandatory use of that word, and had a lot of power (political or
otherwise), there were men who did not have any and who were often
homosexuals. As for me, I have the impression of seeing in that a sort
of invisible transfer phenomenon, of the power that is taken from some
to others. Children will lean to homosexuality later, without having
had any sexual abuse in their childhood, it appears.
But we know that others who were abused will sometimes lean to
homosexuality later. But specialists can speak better than me about the
figures that must exist. I have been told that, back in ancient Greece,
small boys were taken to perverts, including a famous 'Pederast' who,
if what I was told is true, perverted them by force -- there is no
other word -- and gave them a taste for homosexual sexual
relationships, thereby abandoning their future views on women. Because
without an outside influence, men do not become homosexual later, in my
opinion. Destiny is different according to where you are born, I am
sure. If they had grown up in other places, they would not have become
homosexuals later.
The concept of criminality to children was not known at the time of
Plato. They did that to children also to be the most docile managing
classes, I imagine, and to men with high positions in society, who were
not homosexuals, and left the priority of sexual predominance on the
female sex to those (as they had thus had a higher choice of women) who
had no other solution than turning to them.
To summarize, there was no 'Harem" that, even now, we hypocritically
reproach sometimes some religious civilizations, but it was replaced by
a process of the elimination of sexual desire in other men, at the
earliest age, and incitation to homosexuality, for the poor we will say
(at first), which was the same thing, (or worst probably). This
incitation also exists today, largely encouraged (because it is also
lucrative) by our media and their tacit consent.
Homosexuals obey to powerful people, become DOCILE to power, held by
non-homosexuals, even under the appearance of a swaggering revolt that
they occasionally show, to try to recover a dignity that might have
been taken from them, a revolt which seems like a sad comedy, (one
thinks of the Gay Pride). But one thing is sure, we must not have
hatred towards them. Nor contempt or scorn. That does not mean that we
must forget that some are crazy and may be dangerous..
I was talking earlier about women. I hope no one will be offended by
what I will say. But there are not only certain homosexuals (perhaps
all of them), who were raped as children, and stupid people who obey
power, to hurt others, and are in this case despicable. I have often
noticed how much some women willingly and zealously go beyond even the
demands of people in power, often do harm, or harass other men, that
the power does not like, with whom they have no obvious family
connections, and therefore have many flaws in their eyes, and do so
with great servility. Not to mention the false testimony, which is not
a male specialty. The female sex is not at all autonomous, as women
like to repeat, but is very obedient to those men I am taking about.
I hope no one takes this as derogatory or offensive, but I see
homosexuality as a handicap for which they should not always feel
guilty but sometimes and often should feel they are victims, perhaps.
Homosexuality is the wrong path, which many take involuntarily, I
believe. Some cannot help living homosexually, and I see them as people
with a serious handicap (without being disdainful, I repeat) and
perhaps less responsible than those who seek to fall to these base acts
through a taste for vice, when they could avoid it.
I do not at all believe those who say that there is a 'biological gene'
for homosexuality, just as I do not believe those racists and Nazis who
say that there is an 'intelligence' gene in some groups of individuals
and not in others. In any case, I do not claim to have it.
The search for equality and mental health requires good teaching and
moral concepts in education, which are often missing today, or
destroyed by the media, for example. Promoting homosexuality should be
severely punished as a crime. Like those, perhaps unaware of what they
are doing, who travel around the country in camping-cars with
homosexual propaganda. Just like we should severely punish those who
commit crimes and assassination attempts against children, and who
scandalize minors (generally they do all this because it is lucrative,
I repeat). The judgments of courts should be extensively cited as
examples and to edify the crowd.
Homosexuality is an evil of our societies, a debasement and
degeneration of man, sought by the devil (in my opinion). In other
words, as I wrote above, some men politicians or not, may or may not
already have power seek to become more powerful to ensure their safety
and longevity, by harming or destroying others, e.g. by rape, in
particular during childhood (once again) in certain cases. In a way,
they would take the power of others by destroying them psychically.
And I believe that the process and this headlong flight to power, and
the so-called excessive security policy, is encouraged by the DEVIL and
thus linked to the supernatural, and makes men commit folly. An
explanation that is PART of the answer. For example, also by harassing
their fellow creatures, because HARASSMENT plays a very important role
in the physical and especially social domination in relationships of
men in power (whether or not they are homosexual), would often lead to
the creation of political rebels or perverts. I am not revealing a
major discovery here. But we do not know when they do it on voluntarily
and for that purpose, and prove it. That is perhaps the most important.
PS: I hope I am not too "politically incorrect" again, and not to
be associated with. I do not wish to harm anyone, but to contribute to
a debate.
Mark Christiansen
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
jennifer newman
life unless it directly hurts others. Unless a
homesexual is guilty of rape, they are not harming
anyone else. it is between them and God.
I do sometimes wonder why you don't see homesexual
activies in wild life. Maybe it happens and I just
never heard about it.
______________________________________________________
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Machinehead
going to have to disagree with you on many points.
I definately DO NOT see homosexuality as an evil in our society or any
other. I share your view that a large number of gays may have become
that way because of abuse or rape though but I believe that an even
larger number really do have the personallity and emotions of the
opposite sex.
I allso share your view that love should eventually lead to marriage
and family life which is why I support legalizing gay marriage and
allowing gay couples to adopt.
I've known a lot of gay people over the years and I never got the
impression that any of them felt like victims. Oh, and by the way. They
don't recruit either.
Interesting point about civilized countries having a larger proportion
of gays allthough I'm not sure what effect the "white majority" in
those countries would have. I'm guessing that there are more people
that feall like they might be gay but hide it out of fear of
prosecution in the lesser developed countries and that's why it seems
like there are less of them there.
Can you elaborate on this concept of harrassment playing a vital role
in relationships of men in power? Allso, where did you get the idea
that homosexuals were docile?
I think the reason people in power in Greece and Rome were more likely
to be gay is that they could get away with it and were less likely to
be persecuted for it than some kind of dominant / subserviant role of
men in power to their gay lovers kind of thing.
___________________________________________________________________
ShunkW
indicate that there is about a 5-10% of the populations that are which is a very similar
percentage to Homo sapiens.
Sw
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ShunkW
like to see any statistics anywhere that support your contentions about " More than half
of some American cities are homosexual". Give me some names and numbers instead of
making such outlandish comments. This statement is about as accurate as the rest of your
spiel; pretty much not at all.
Sw
-----Original Message-----
From: World_P...@googlegroups.com [mailto:World_P...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
MICHAEL CASE
lesbians, that nonsense is on par with someone deciding to "become" Jewish
in Germany in, say, 1939...The people who have a problem with homosexuality
are the people who have secret doubts about their own sexuality. They are
afraid they might like it.
Mark Christiansen
There is some science to say that some and I do repeat
some people become homosexual because of events
happening in their life like abuse. So it isn't
always nonsense. Biologicaly all species when they
get to a point there is a small precentage that are
homosexual.
So there is evidence out there for more than just
being born homosexual.
Mark
__________________________________
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ShunkW
Sw
-----Original Message-----
From: World_P...@googlegroups.com [mailto:World_P...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 6:51 AM
To: World_P...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: About Homosexuality
Mark Christiansen
studies to that effect you can find on the internet.
But what is the point? To me why someone homoseuxal
i not important to me. What is important to me is what
kind of person they are and how they treat someone.
Being homosexual to me is on the same level as the
color of hair they have.
But I will look it up for you.
ShunkW
Yes I do buried in my books somewhere. There have been
studies to that effect you can find on the internet.
But what is the point? To me why someone homoseuxal
i not important to me. What is important to me is what
kind of person they are and how they treat someone.
Being homosexual to me is on the same level as the
color of hair they have.
But I will look it up for you.
--- ShunkW wrote:
>
> Do you have any sources for that "science"?
>
> Sw
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: World_P...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:World_P...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Mark Christiansen
> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 6:51 AM
> To: World_P...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: About Homosexuality
>
>
> Mike,
> There is some science to say that some and I do
> repeat
> some people become homosexual because of events
> happening in their life like abuse. So it isn't
> always nonsense. Biologicaly all species when they
> get to a point there is a small precentage that are
> homosexual.
> So there is evidence out there for more than just
> being born homosexual.
> Mark
Neal Donohue
ShunkW <shu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Neal Donohue
READ ALL THE BOOKS YOU WANT, FREE WILL DETERMINES ACTIONS. Mark Christiansen <kveryef...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes I do buried in my books somewhere. There have been
studies to that effect you can find on the internet.
But what is the point? To me why someone homoseuxal
i not important to me. What is important to me is what
kind of person they are and how they treat someone.
Being homosexual to me is on the same level as the
color of hair they have.
But I will look it up for you.
--- ShunkW wrote:
>
> Do you have any sources for that "science"?
>
> Sw
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: World_P...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:World_P...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Mark Christiansen
> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 6:51 AM
> To: World_P...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: About Homosexuality
>
>
> Mike,
> There is some science to say that some and I do
> repeat
> some people become homosexual because of events
> happening in their life like abuse. So it isn't
> always nonsense. Biologicaly all species when they
> get to a point there is a small precentage that are
> homosexual.
> So there is evidence out there for more than just
> being born homosexual.
> Mark
__________________________________________________
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Neal Donohue
Mark Christiansen
I never said there was a gay gene now did I?
I just stated that when populations of animals get to
a certian size a small precentage becomes homosexual.
So before you shoot. Think about what is being said.
--- Neal Donohue <mootp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> LISTEN CHICKEN HEAD,
>
> 1999 GENETIC STUDY IN OTTAWA UNIVERSITY PROVED
> PREVIOUS STUDIES BY BIOGISTS WERE WRONG. NO GENETIC
Neal Donohue
Mark Christiansen <kveryef...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Pay attention.
I never said there was a gay gene now did I?
I just stated that when populations of animals get to
a certian size a small precentage becomes homosexual.
So before you shoot. Think about what is being said.
Mark Christiansen
talk than.
> GENETICALLY DETERMINED, AND MY MOTHER-IN-LAW IS
> TRYING TO GET OUT PRISON FOR HOMOCIDE--'GENETIC
> MURDERER!
>
popcorn
you are full of crap. People do not choose to be homosexuality, Also
this statement is bullshit.
LEADERSHIP OF GAY AND LESBIAN POLITICAL MOVEMENT IS ALL MARXIST. ONCE
AGENDA, DESTROY BACKBONE OF AMERICAN CULTURE.
most gays just want a right to live ther life.
ShunkW
ShunkW
MICHAEL CASE
Ruff...@aol.com
~ R
Gigi (tempest)
----- Original Message -----From: Ruff...@aol.com
Machinehead
biological and is purely a matter of choice, that wouldn't remove their
right to make that choice.
___________________________________________________________________
Mike,
There is some science to say that some and I do repeat
some people become homosexual because of events
happening in their life like abuse. So it isn't
always nonsense. Biologicaly all species when they
get to a point there is a small precentage that are
homosexual.
So there is evidence out there for more than just
being born homosexual.
Mark
--- MICHAEL CASE <postma...@verizon.net> wrote:
Ruff...@aol.com
~ R
Gabor Mandler
Just a comment about how supposedly so many men are gay in the West,while there are almost none in the "Third World". In most of those countries it's a crime to be homosexual,some of them have the death penalty for it.-Like Saudi-Arabia,that great ally of the U.S.-
So trust me,they have as many men who are gay as in the West,they're just too afraid to tell!
So instead of looking down on the West for "having so many gays",they should look into their own cultures and say: "Gee,maybe we're so oppressive and cruel that many men in our country are forced into saying they're not gay,while they're living a closeted life."
"Einstein said:"You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat."
J R Green
makes your post look like it was written by a
moron...oh...I see that it was.
>
> 1999 GENETIC STUDY IN OTTAWA UNIVERSITY PROVED
> PREVIOUS STUDIES BY BIOGISTS WERE WRONG. NO GENETIC
Machinehead
moron at all. Go back and read some of his posts. He touches on some
interesting concepts. The problem is he thinks he's smarter than the
rest of us and is playing the role of spoiler in our discussions.
____________________________________________________________________
ShunkW
moron because I don't think he's acting.
Sw
-----Original Message-----
From: World_P...@googlegroups.com [mailto:World_P...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Jerry Penny
that homofagality is a birth defect too?
Ruff...@aol.com
I guess there has to be a homophobe in every group. Given the way you spelled homosexuality, you seem to be one in this group.
~ R
In a message dated 9/18/2005 7:10:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, shellhunter1@y... writes:
ShunkW
is a birth defect.
Sw
-----Original Message-----
From: World_P...@googlegroups.com [mailto:World_P...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 9:10 PM
To: World_P...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: About Homosexuality
Gigi (tempest)
difference in a small part of the DNA.
It appears that anything that doesn't fit into your definition of 'normal'
is a defect. Who are you to decide this?
Machinehead
that if someone is born that way, we should accept it? I would argue
that we should accept it even if it's 100% choice on their part. A
lifestyle preference if you will. In a free society everyone starts out
with complete freedom. Only when it harms someone else can that freedom
be taken away. My right to swing my fist stops at the tip of your nose.
If I go any further I will be violating your rights.
_________________________________________________________
Mark Christiansen
Ruff...@aol.com
~ R
In a message dated 9/19/2005 12:42:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kveryeffective@y... writes:
Mark Christiansen
Ruff...@aol.com
In the three cases I'm personally familiar with, it was the father who did the booting. I doubt that many women would abort for that reason. Women usually have more compassion.
Interesting conjecture: I suspect there is a positive correlation between being antigay and being pro-life. So I suspect my scenario is more likely than yours.
Russ
In a message dated 9/19/2005 1:01:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kveryeffective@y... writes:
ShunkW
Sw
Mark Christiansen
Ruff...@aol.com wrote:
Ruff...@aol.com
Actually, in this instance, the Catholic Church is consistent. Some of the evangelical Protestant denominations are not.
~ R
"Kill them all in the name of the Lord."
-- Jerry Falwell
Are you talking about "pro-life" or anti-abortion? A pro-lifer would also have to be anti-war and anti-death penalty.
Sw
Ruff...@aol.com wrote:
ShunkW
Machinehead
matter. If it's because she was programmed that way then there's
definately a correlation. You could be pro life and not be anti gay.
If your pro life position is not based on religion. You probably
wouldn't find too many gay bashers that are pro choice though. hehe.
Maybe those baptists. They're pretty liberal sometimes. (just kidding
=P)
_____________________________________________________________________
MICHAEL CASE
----- Original Message -----From: Ruff...@aol.com
Mark Christiansen
It has been my experience someone is pro-choice being
anti-death penatly, anti-war, sperate church-state at
all cost to even thinking having a Bible on the school
bus is too much.
So each side has their issues.
gregory meyer
gregory meyer
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ShunkW
Sw
-----Original Message-----
From: World_P...@googlegroups.com [mailto:World_P...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
ShunkW
-----Original Message-----
From: World_P...@googlegroups.com [mailto:World_P...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of gregory meyer
John Olson
gregory meyer <greg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gigi (tempest)
GetMe Off This List
actually give a 50 word response to my email. I'm
just trying to get kicked off this email list. --
google groups doesn't even think I'm a member-- the
leader of this group is misusing it to send spam. it
will be shut down soon.
Have fun,
Your Fellow Countryman
John Olson
Oh man, only a self righteous ass like yourself would
actually give a 50 word response to my email. I'm
just trying to get kicked off this email list. --
google groups doesn't even think I'm a member-- the
leader of this group is misusing it to send spam. it
will be shut down soon.
Have fun,
Your Fellow Countryman
JACK RABBIT
By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonopost.com
Tuesday, September 20, 2005; 12:24 PM
The Jack Abramoff lobbying scandal reached into the White House yesterday, picking off President Bush's top procurement official -- who just barely had time to resign before being arrested.
The federal charges against David Safavian stem from his tenure as chief of staff of the General Services Administration, predating his arrival at the White House a year ago. But his arrest nonetheless draws renewed attention to the ongoing corruption and influence-peddling inquiry swirling around Abramoff, a lobbyist well known for his connections to conservative Republicans in the White House and Congress.
And for a White House so desperate to build public confidence in its ability to respond to the Gulf Coast disaster, it doesn't exactly help that the man who up until Friday was overseeing contracting policy for the multi-billion dollar relief effort has now been charged with lying and obstructing a criminal investigation.
R. Jeffrey Smith and Susan Schmidt write in The Washington Post: "The Bush administration's top federal procurement official resigned Friday and was arrested yesterday, accused of lying and obstructing a criminal investigation into Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff's dealings with the federal government. It was the first criminal complaint filed against a government official in the ongoing corruption probe related to Abramoff's activities in Washington.
"The complaint, filed by the FBI, alleges that David H. Safavian, 38, a White House procurement official involved until last week in Hurricane Katrina relief efforts, made repeated false statements to government officials and investigators about a golf trip with Abramoff to Scotland in 2002."
Philip Shenon and Anne E. Kornblut write in the New York Times: "The White House said in a statement that Mr. Safavian had resigned on Friday and that 'we, of course, will cooperate fully with the Justice Department in this investigation.' A spokesman said the White House would have no further comment on the arrest. . . .
"His wife, Jennifer Safavian, is chief counsel for oversight and investigations on the House Government Reform Committee, which is responsible for overseeing government procurement and is, among other things, expected to conduct the Congressional investigation into missteps after Hurricane Katrina."
Shenon and Kornblut note: "The Justice Department did not reveal details of Mr. Safavian's arrest, including where it occurred. The department also did not say why the criminal charges were brought directly by prosecutors, rather than by the Washington grand jury investigating Mr. Abramoff. The Justice Department often bypasses a grand jury when a criminal case is brought together hurriedly or when there is fear that a defendant may try to flee."
Just recently, Safavian was the administration's point man when it came to one of the controversial measures in the White House's recent $51.8 billion supplemental aid request: The boosting from $15,000 to $250,000 of the upper limit for purchases made with government-issued credit cards. Critics said the change will allow card holders to circumvent important measures to curb fraud and cronyism.
Here is the Justice Department's press release on Safavian's arrest.
Here is Stephen Barr 's January profile of Safavian in The Washington Post.
The Project on Government Oversight blog is keeping close tabs on the story. So is Talking Points Memo .
Abramoff's White House ConnectionsIn addition to Safavian, Abramoff is known to have close ties to at least one other key White House official: Susan B. Ralston, Karl Rove's omnipresent assistant and gatekeeper.
Here's Peter H. Stone writing in the National Journal last year: "As presidential adviser Karl Rove set up shop in the West Wing in 2001, he was looking for an assistant to serve as the trusted gatekeeper of his new fiefdom. Superlobbyist and Republican fundraiser Jack Abramoff was happy to lend a hand. Abramoff knew just the right person for the job: his own assistant, Susan Ralston. She interviewed with Rove and got the position."
Ralston told Filipinas magazine last year: "Working for Karl Rove is like being at the center of the Bush universe -- I am fortunate to be where I am, and be involved in much of what goes on at the White House."
Ralston was in the news most recently for being summoned to testify in July before the grand jury investigating the leak of the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame. Rove, of course, is one of the central figures in that investigation.
New Appointee TroublesDan Eggen and Spencer S. Hsu write in The Washington Post: "The Bush administration is seeking to appoint a lawyer with little immigration or customs experience to head the troubled law enforcement agency that handles those issues, prompting sharp criticism from some employee groups, immigration advocates and homeland security experts.
"The push to appoint Julie Myers to head the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, part of the Department of Homeland Security, comes in the midst of intense debate over the qualifications of department political appointees involved in the sluggish response to Hurricane Katrina. . . .
"After working as a federal prosecutor in Brooklyn, N.Y., for two years, Myers held a variety of jobs over the past four years at the White House and at the departments of Commerce, Justice and Treasury, though none involved managing a large bureaucracy. . . .
"Myers also was an associate under independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr for about 16 months and has most recently served as a special assistant to President Bush handling personnel issues."
The White House yesterday also announced the renomination of two men who were granted recess appointments -- U.N. Ambassador John Bolton and Defense Undersecretary Eric Edelman -- as well as the last-minute withdrawal of Terry Neese to be director of the Mint.
Poll WatchSusan Page writes in USA Today: "Americans' views of President Bush and his leadership have soured in the wake of dismay over the government's response to Hurricane Katrina, the course of the Iraq war and the future of the economy.
"Bush's rating for handling each of those issues dropped to his lowest yet in a USA Today/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday. Assessments of his personal qualities also fell: For the first time, a majority says he isn't a strong and decisive leader.
"Bush's overall approval rating is 40%, equaling a previous low. His disapproval is 58%, a new high. . . .
" 'Bush stands at a precipice,' says Carroll Doherty of the non-partisan Pew Research Center. 'He's lost ground among independents. He seems to be starting to lose ground among his own party. And he lost the Democrats a long time ago.' "
Here is the transcript and video of CNN analyst William Schneider discussing the poll results with Wolf Blitzer.
Blitzer: "Bill, how do these new numbers compare with other past two-term presidents?
Schneider: "Wolf, let's see.
"At this point in their second terms, Presidents Clinton, Reagan and Eisenhower were all about 60 percent job approval. As you just reported, Bush is at 40. That puts him in the company of Lyndon Johnson, after a summer of urban violence and escalation in Vietnam, and just above Richard Nixon in the middle of Watergate.
"Gulp."
Here are the complete poll results .
Consider some of these responses.
* Just your best guess, do you think George W. Bush has taken steps to help victims of Hurricane Katrina mostly because he sincerely cares about the victims, or mostly for political reasons? Sincerely cares about the victims, 42 percent; Political reasons, 56 percent.
* In view of the developments since we first sent our troops to Iraq, do you think the United States made a mistake in sending troops to Iraq, or not? Yes, a mistake, 59 percent; No, not, 39 percent.
* Which comes closest to your view about what the U.S. should now do about the number of U.S. troops in Iraq? Send more troops, 8 percent; Keep as now, 26 percent; Withdraw some troops, 33 percent; Withdraw all troops, 30 percent.
* If you had to choose, which of the following would you say would be the best way for the government to pay for the problems caused by Hurricane Katrina? Increase federal budget deficit, 15 percent; Raise taxes, 17 percent; Cut spending for war in Iraq, 54 percent; Cut spending for domestic programs, 7 percent.
* As you may know, some people have called for an investigation into the problems the government had in responding to Hurricane Katrina. Who would you rather see conduct this investigation by an independent panel or Congress? Independent panel, 81 percent; Congress 18 percent.
Live OnlineI'll be Live Online tomorrow at 1 p.m. ET., eager to respond to your questions and comments .
The Opposition SpeaksDan Balz writes in The Washington Post: "President Bush came under withering criticism for his handling of Hurricane Katrina yesterday, with Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) charging that the storm exposed the administration's incompetence and ideological blinders and former senator John Edwards (D-N.C.) asserting that even in its response, the administration backs policies that support the privileged over the working poor.
"Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, said in a speech at Brown University that Michael D. Brown, who quit under fire as the Federal Emergency Management Agency's director, exemplified the administration's failures over the past five years. . . .
"Edwards, who has made poverty a signature issue, said the plight of many of those displaced by the flooding in New Orleans underscores an urgent need for the nation to attack the problem again. He offered policy initiatives aimed at ensuring that Americans who work full time do not fall below the poverty line. . . .
"The two speeches followed pointed comments along the same lines by former president Bill Clinton, who criticized the administration's response to the storm Sunday. Speaking on ABC's 'This Week,' Clinton said Bush should roll back tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans to offset the cost of rebuilding, and he asserted that the poverty exposed by the storm-forced exodus was caused in part by the administration's own policies."
Here is the full text of Kerry's speech.
"Katrina is a symbol of all this administration does and doesn't do," he said. "Michael Brown -- or Brownie as the President so famously thanked him for doing a heck of a job - Brownie is to Katrina what Paul Bremer is to peace in Iraq; what George Tenet is to slam dunk intelligence; what Paul Wolfowitz is to parades paved with flowers in Baghdad; what Dick Cheney is to visionary energy policy; what Donald Rumsfeld is to basic war planning; what Tom Delay is to ethics; and what George Bush is to 'Mission Accomplished' and 'Wanted Dead or Alive.' The bottom line is simple: The 'we'll do whatever it takes' administration doesn't have what it takes to get the job done. . . .
"Rarely has there been a moment more urgent for Americans to step up and define ourselves again. On the line is a fundamental choice. A choice between a view that says 'you're on your own,' 'go it alone,' or 'every man for himself.' Or a different view - a different philosophy - a different conviction of governance - a belief that says our great American challenge is one of shared endeavor and shared sacrifice."
Here is the full text of Edwards's speech.
Rules of the Blame GameRichard W. Stevenson and Carl Hulse write in the New York Times: "President Bush has named Frances Fragos Townsend, his domestic security adviser, to lead an internal White House inquiry into the administration's performance in handling Hurricane Katrina, Scott McClellan, Mr. Bush's spokesman, said Monday. . . .
"A Republican who served in the Clinton administration's Justice Department before holding a number of jobs under Mr. Bush, Ms. Townsend has a reputation for being tough and independent. But her appointment is unlikely to mute calls from Democrats in Congress for a fully independent investigation."
Mary Curtius writes in the Los Angeles Times: "Congressional Republicans signaled Monday that they had abandoned their plan to conduct a joint House-Senate probe of the government's response to Hurricane Katrina. . . .
"With the joint congressional investigation apparently off the table, Republicans are planning separate House and Senate inquiries.
"But it was far from clear Monday whether the Democrats would cooperate with those efforts."
Black Minister WatchPeter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger write in the Los Angeles Times: "For many of the black ministers who have allied themselves with President Bush and a Republican strategy to boost the party's African American support, the government's slow response to Hurricane Katrina put a severe strain on new and still-fragile bonds of trust.
"But just as some ministers had denounced a government recovery effort that seemed to leave many blacks in the gulf region behind, a number of those African American clergy say an aggressive outreach campaign by Bush and senior White House aides in recent days has begun reversing what might have been lasting political damage. . . .
"The White House outreach to its allies among black clergy has been intense and has engaged Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove, chief domestic policy advisor Claude Allen, and James Towey, director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives."
Voucher WatchAmy Goldstein writes in The Washington Post: "Under President Bush's plan to cover most of the cost of educating students displaced by Hurricane Katrina, parents could enroll their children in a private or religious school this year at federal expense, even if they had gone to public schools back home, administration officials said yesterday."
Administration officials initially indicated the vouchers would only be for students previously enrolled in private schools.
"Yesterday, however, as new fine print of the proposal emerged, White House and Education Department spokesmen confirmed that the government payment -- as much as $7,500 per child -- would be given for a year to any displaced family that now prefers an alternative to public schools," Goldstein writes.
"Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (Mass.), ranking Democrat on the Senate's Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, said, 'Instead of reopening ideological battles, we should be focused on reopening schools and getting people the help that they need.' "
Supreme Court WatchDavid D. Kirkpatrick and Sheryl Stolberg write in the New York Times: "The White House is reshuffling its short list of potential Supreme Court nominees with a new emphasis on finding someone who will hold up under the pressure of what is expected to be fierce confirmation battle, several Republican allies close to the process said on Monday. . . .
"Republican aides briefed on the search said the White House was looking mainly at female jurists for Justice O'Connor's seat, but it has expanded its short list and it is examining the contenders anew in the expectation of a trial by fire."
Deb Riechmann writes for the Associated Press: "Bush's low poll numbers have given liberals hope he'll nominate a moderate to avoid a raucous fight in the Senate."
Alternately: "Some think Bush might pick a hard-liner to keep his base happy and prevent a further drop in the polls."
Calendar WatchSteve Holland writes for Reuters: "Seeking to highlight progress after a much-criticized late start to the hurricane relief effort, Bush planned to visit Gulfport, Mississippi, and New Orleans on Tuesday.
"He will get a briefing on Tropical Storm Rita -- which is expected to strengthen and could make landfall on the Gulf Coast -- and visit a recovering business in New Orleans.
"He reworked his schedule for Friday and Saturday in order to visit cities in Alabama, Texas and Arkansas that have taken in large numbers of Katrina evacuees."
Karl Rove WatchKenneth T. Walsh writes for U.S. News: "Despite President Bush's emphasis on rebuilding the gulf states after Hurricane Katrina, White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove found time to visit a super-exclusive conference this past weekend sponsored by leaders of Forstmann Little, the investment company, in Aspen, Colo. A White House official said Rove's appearance was 'on the books' for a long time and he decided to proceed with the trip, but the official provided no further information. However, a prominent Republican with strong connections to Capitol Hill got wind of Rove's jaunt and wasn't pleased.
" 'What the hell is Karl Rove doing there?' he asked. The GOP insider wondered whether it was appropriate for Bush's political guru to hobnob with the rich and powerful at the exclusive resort at a time when the administration is supposed to be focused on helping the victims of hurricane Katrina and showing empathy for their plight."
As I wrote in yesterday's column , the Huffington Post blog claims to have the skinny on what Rove said in his off-the-record talk.
Book Festival ProtestPoet Sharon Olds publishes in the Nation her letter to the first lady, declining her invitation to National Book Festival events in Washington this weekend because of the war with Iraq.
"I thought that I could try to find a way, even as your guest, with respect, to speak about my deep feeling that we should not have invaded Iraq. . . . But I could not face the idea of breaking bread with you," Olds writes.
Jumping Ship?The American Spectator reports that Bush's ambitious second-term agenda is so dead that rumors "are flying through various departments of longtime senior Bush loyalists looking to jump, but with few opportunities in the private sector to make the jump look like anything more than desperation."
ShunkW
Rumor has it that Abramoff and his other criminal buddies are probably going to turn and that could bring down a whole lot of crooked politicians with DeLay on the top of the list. There are a few Democrats but the majority of Abramoff’s “clients” are Republican. It could be the scandal of the century so far anyway.
Sw
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JACK RABBIT
The School Safavian and Abramoff Built
The FBI complaint filed against David Safavian yesterday accuses him of lying to ethics officers at the General Services Administration, where he served as chief of staff. Safavian informed the officials that Jack Abramoff, who had invited Safavian on a golfing trip to Scotland, had “no business before GSA.” In fact, Safavian was already actively helping Abramoff acquire control of two GSA-managed properties in the Washington area, one of which was a 40-acre plot that became the campus for a Hebrew school that Abramoff founded called the
Eshkol Academy.
Come again? Jack Abramoff, the corrupt, scandal-plagued lobbyist, founded a Hebrew academy? Yes, but it was a distinctly Abramoff-style venture.
In 2004, he thought the school would be a prime place to make money off the lives of tribal elders. Abramoff recommended that one of his clients, the then-broke Tigua tribe, retain him at no cost. At the same time, he suggestioned they allow Eshkol Academy to “buy term life insurance policies on tribal elders and receive the benefits upon their death, with the money then channeled back to Abramoff.” According to the Washington Post, some of the money that went into the school was used to buy “two Zamboni ice-cleaning machines, even though it did not own a hockey rink.”
The school was closed a short time later, but the scandals persisted. In May ‘04, Abramoff’s assets were frozen by a Montgomery County, MD judge “in connection with a lawsuit over unpaid wages filed by employees of a religious academy that Abramoff founded.” Abramoff had shorted thirteen teachers a quarter of their pay when Eshkol shut down.
The Moral Vacuum
Members of private contracting firms in Iraq were deeply involved in the abuse which occurred at the Abu Ghraib prison. The involvement of the contractors was exposed in a Pentagon investigation last year which found that “several of the alleged perpetrators of the abuse of detainees” were private contractors.
(For example, remember CACI International? The company, which had no experience in professional interrogations, supplied the U.S. military with interrogators like Steven Stefanowicz, the CACI employee considered by Major General Antonio Taguba to be “directly or indirectly responsible” for encouraging the horrific abuse and torture at Abu Ghraib.)
Not only did Stafanowicz escape any criminal prosecution, according to the Financial Times, not one single private contractor has faced criminal charges or prosecution. Not one. A new Pentagon report found that even though cases were referred to the Department of Justice, “to date, no charges have been filed.”
Welcome to the moral vacuum. Leave your accountability at the door.
How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying
Two years ago, the FBI knew its $170 million “Virtual Case File” project was in serious trouble. By 2004, officials had discovered an estimated 400 problems with the software, which was intended to coordinate the agency’s anti-terrorism measures.
The seriously botched program was the work of an outside contractor, the Science Applications International Corp (SAIC). The company continuously fought with the FBI over system requirements and changes. And at the end of the day, SAIC pocketed a cool $100 million for creating software that just didn’t work.
So has the White House decided to kick SAIC to the curb?
Nah. The Pentagon just gave SAIC a brand-spanking new, $25.7 million contract to “help the Army integrate virtual combat training systems.”
(This isn’t the first time SAIC has taken U.S. taxpayers for a ride; read ThinkProgress’s “Enough To Make You SAIC” for more examples of botched government contracts as well as the revolving door between SAIC and the Bush White House.)
The United States of Accenture »
Last year, the Department of Homeland Security “awarded one of the most ambitious technology contracts in the war on terror — a 10-year deal estimated at up to $10 billion — to the global consulting firm Accenture.” After giving DHS advice on how to run the bidding process, Accenture won the contract; the firm “promised to create a ‘virtual border’ that would electronically screen millions of foreign travelers.” The project is under an “indefinite delivery-indefinite quantity contract,” which means that Accenture will be “paid for specific tasks along the way, even if the overall system ultimately doesn’t work.” Now homeland security experts worry that “[t]here’s no question we could end up spending billions of dollars and end up with nothing. It creates an illusion of security that doesn’t exist.”
The power handover from the government to a contractor has a disturbing sense of déjà vu to it, maybe because of its interesting connection back to Accenture. expand post »
Titan Corporation of San Diego, a partner of Accenture, was “among the companies identified by a U.S. military investigation as providing interrogators and interpreters at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.” In fact, their participation in and/or failure to report abuse of prisoners led to employees from Titan being referred to the Justice Department for prosecution. A key explanation of how the employees were able to get away with the abuse was revealed by an internal Army report that concluded: “in general, US civilian contract personnel (Titan Corporation, CACI, etc…), third country nationals, and local contractors do not appear to be properly supervised within the detention facility at Abu Ghraib … they wandered about with too much unsupervised free access in the detainee area.”
In providing personnel to Abu Ghraib prison, Titan worked with CACI International. Focusing on CACI, a Government Accountability Office inquiry shed a harsh light on what happens when the government hands over its oversight responsiblities. The report found that “government officials … all but abdicated their responsibility, leaving it to the private contractor to set terms for its work.” The power handover allowed “the contractor [to play] a role in the procurement process normally performed by the government. This in turn ‘[created] a conflict of interest and [undermined] the integrity of the competitive contracting process.’”
Sound familiar? « collapse post
DOJ Pays Taser Employee to Advise on Tasers
Taser International, the nation’s leading seller of stun guns, had been making an “aggressive push to enter markets either regulated or controlled by the federal government, most notably the Department of Homeland Security” when President Bush decided to nominate one of the firm’s directors, Rudolph Giuliani’s business partner Bernard Kerik, for the position of Homeland Security Secretary. After Kerik was forced to withdraw his nomination, it seemed that Taser would not find a way to worm its interests into the dealings of our federal government.
Not so.
The Justice Department has granted a taxpayer funded study into the safety of tasers after continued reports that the supposedly non-lethal weapons have actually killed dozens of people. Conveniently, Taser International’s medical director Robert Stratbucker is one of the advisors to the nearly half a million dollar study.
When the application was approved, there was no mention of Stratbucker’s involvement in the company’s efforts to tout its guns as “non-lethal weapons that offer a safe way for police to subdue suspects.” Despite the obvious potential for conflict of interest, the Justice Department continues to defend Stratbucker’s supposedly “small” involvement in the study by claiming “it will ‘not influence the research goals, scientific measurement, data collection or conclusions.”
Helping Halliburton Hide
In 2004, the UN’s International Advisory and Monitoring Board (IAMB) — the international group that oversees the use of Iraqi money on Iraqi reconstruction — wanted to know more about Halliburton. Specifically, they wanted to conduct an audit of Halliburton subsidiary Kellog Brown & Root’s single-source, oh-so-lucrative Iraq contract, $1.6 billion of which came straight from Iraqi coffers. After much foot dragging, the White House finally complied, sending the IAMB heavily redacted versions of audits the Pentagon’s Defense Contract Audit Agency (DCAA) had conducted into Halliburton’s use of the money.
Blacked out of the redacted report was the fact that Halliburton may have bilked the U.S. military out of about $100 million. Also blacked out were statements critical of KBR like “KBR was unable to reconcile the proposed costs to its accounting records” and “KBR did not always provide accurate information.”
Here’s where it gets really interesting. Wondering why the extensive redactions blocked all of the negative findings, the crack researchers in Rep. Henry Waxman’s office looked into the matter. It turns out the White House gave Halliburton a copy of the negative audit and let the company scrub out all of the negative stuff itself before it was sent to the UN group. A letter from KBR dated 9/28/04 to the Army Corps of Engineers states “we have redacted the statements of DCAA that we believe are factually incorrect or misleading and could be used by a competitor to damage KBR’s ability to win and negotiate new work.”
With God At The Four Seasons »
In April, 2002, Tom DeLay told a church crowd, “He [God] has been walking me through an incredible journey…He is using me, all the time, everywhere, to stand up for biblical worldview in everything that I do and everywhere I am. He is training me, He is working with me.”
No word on whether God was with DeLay during his luxurious vacation at the Four Seasons Hotel in London in mid-2000, paid for by corrupt GOP lobbyist Jack Abramoff. This weekend, the National Journal provided new detail on the close, personal and grotesquely unethical relationship between DeLay and Abramoff. According to expense accounts obtained by the Journal, Abramoff financed DeLay and DeLay’s staff’s stay at the Four Seasons hotel in mid-2000, to the tune of $4,285.35. The total reimbursement for expenses in London was $13,318.50. expand post »
Abramoff is best known for his unethical work with right-wing religious fundamentalist Ralph Reed - the two of them teamed up to help Texas shut a casino operated by the Tigua Indians in 2002, then persuaded the tribe to pay them $4.2 million to lobby Washington lawmakers, including DeLay, to reopen it.
“To the casual observer, it was a pretty simple deal,” a former House leadership aide told the Journal, after being shown details of the London transaction. “Jack raised money for the pet projects of DeLay and took care of his top staff. In turn, they granted him tremendous access and allowed him to freely trade on DeLay’s name.”
DeLay’s “incredible journey” continues today in a Travis County courthouse, where God’s instrument will find himself the “focus of attention” of a civil trial involving allegations of illegal campaign contributions to Republican members of the Texas House. Two of DeLay’s major political operatives in Washington and another political ally in Texas were indicted last year in a grand jury investigation, accused of participating in a scheme to make illegal corporate donations to Republican candidates for the Legislature. « collapse post
Paying Uncle Bucky
For certain members of the Bush family the war in Iraq has been very profitable. Just ask William H.T. Bush, or, as President George W. Bush calls him, Uncle Bucky. Bucky Bush just made a cool $450,000 in war profits from Iraq through the St. Louis-based defense contractor Engineered Support Systems Inc. Bucky, who sits on the company’s board, cashed out a half-million of the company’s stock options last month.
ESSI’s stock prices skyrocketed “to record heights” with Uncle Bucky’s nephew’s decision to invade Iraq. ESSI raked in millions with contracts to refit military vehicles with extra armor, build $19-million worth of its protective shelters for chemical and biological weapons (despite the fact that no biological or chemical weapons have been found in Iraq), and provide communications support services to the Coalition Provisional Authority. Of course, the company hasn’t been without its share of trouble, even with a family member in the White House: some of ESSI’s no-bid contracts (with a value of $158 million) are now under investigation by the Pentagon.
Special Forces Cannibals
The Pentagon is planning to offer $150,000 bonuses in an expensive attempt to keep members of its elite Special Forces — Navy Seals, Green Berets and specially trained Air Force squads — from jumping ship to take more lucrative civilian jobs with U.S. contractors. The number of Special Forces soldiers, pivotal to “hunt the insurgent leadership, train Iraqi forces and guard senior members of the emerging government in Baghdad,” has greatly fallen off since May 2003.
It’s all part of a vicious circle of inefficiency that ultimately leaves Uncle Sam broke, the military facing a shortage of trained personnel and contractors laughing all the way to the bank.
Here’s how it works. First, the military uses taxpayer money — and it’s not cheap — to train these special forces. With their special skills, these troops are currently in high demand in places like Kabul and Baghdad.
At the same time, the U.S. government also spends billions of dollars every year to hire big, for-profit companies like Halliburton’s KBR or CACI to take over a lot of the duties traditionally performed by the military.
These companies promptly hire the elite soldiers away from the military for much higher salaries. The average senior special ops officer, for example, makes about $50,000 a year from the U.S. government; contractors quadruple that salary to about $200,000. The corporations charge the U.S. government for the salary and expenses (and tack on a nice profit for themselves on top of that.)
In effect, the United States is paying corporations to cannibalize the best and brightest from America’s military.
Halliburton in the Axis of Evil
The White House has expressed deep concern over the third spoke in the president’s “axis of evil,” Iran.
“Today, Iran remains the world’s primary state sponsor of terror — pursuing nuclear weapons while depriving its people of the freedom they seek and deserve.” — President George Bush, State of the Union, 2/2/05
“You look around the world at potential trouble spots, Iran is right at the top of the list.” — Vice President Cheney, Imus show, 1/20/05
Iran is an “outpost of tyranny.” — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Senate hearings, 1/18/05
The White House has called for “tough sanctions” against foreign companies still doing business with Iran. Unfortunately, the White House has turned a blind eye when it comes to big U.S. corporations looking to make a buck. As the Wall Street Journal reports, “U.S. officials said yesterday there has been no push by the Bush administration to persuade subsidiaries of American companies to pull out of Iran.”
Case In Point: Vice President Cheney’s former company, Halliburton, is still involved in business deals in Iran. On Jan. 9, Reuters reported that Halliburton had just “won a tender to drill a huge Iranian gas field.” The company recently “opened an unmarked office on the 10th floor of a Tehran office building” and its latest project “is expected to take 52 months to complete,” meaning Halliburton will be in this “outpost of tyranny” until 2009.
Of course, this isn’t Halliburton’s first transgression with this “trouble spot”. Early last year, remember, the Treasury Department reopened a 2001 inquiry that “centered on the legality of the business dealings between Iran and a Halliburton subsidiary incorporated in the Cayman Islands.”
Filed under: Administration, Contract Corruption, Corporate Power, International Relations, Iran, Terrorism
Posted by Christy February 3, 2005 3:06 pm
Enough To Make You SAIC
Last week it was announced that the crucial $581 million overhaul of the FBI’s computer system hit a major snag: it doesn’t work. Called “Virtual Case File,” the software was intended to aid in coordinating the agency’s antiterrorism measures, but “the bureau is so convinced that [it] will not work” that it has already started preparing to reopen the bidding process for new contractors to design new software. The software was designed by the Science Applications International Corp (SAIC), which will pocket a cool $100 million, even thought their software was a bust. Here’s a little more about this company, which in 2003 pulled in $5.4 billion in government revenue:
The Record
Even though they had no broadcasting experience, SAIC received an $82 million no-bid contract to run the first post-Saddam TV network in Iraq. It was an unmitigated disaster. Requests for basic news gear were denied. An audit found SAIC was paid for work it did not complete. They had no programs and relied on a mix of announcements from the U.S. military and rehashed U.S. newscasts – like coverage of the Laci Peterson coverage.
Although SAIC paid their executives in Iraq $273 an hour and security officers up to $1000 a day, they paid the Iraqis they hired as news anchors as little as $60 a month. When the Iraqis pointed out that wasn’t even enough to pay for decent clothes to wear on air, SAIC agreed to pay to dress them…but only from the waist up.
In March 2004, a Pentagon audit found SAIC improperly charged the government to fly a Hummer and pickup truck to Iraq on a private jet for the personal use of an SAIC employee. In all, they recommended that the company repay the government $634,834 for unsubstantiated costs.
SAIC was also awarded the contract to train Iraqi soldiers and police officers.
The Players:
Adm. William Owens, former SAIC president and CEO, became an influential member of Sec. Rumsfeld’s Defense Policy Board
Christopher Henry, former senior vice president at SAIC, became a key aide to Douglas Feith, who was in charge of supervising contract work done by SAIC in Iraq.
Gen. Wayne Downing, SAIC board member, became the chief counterterrorism expert at the National Security Council. Also a lobbyist for disgraced Ahmad Chalabi’s Iraqi National Congress, he was a vocal advocate for the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.
Follow the Money:
In the last election cycle, SAIC’s PAC gave $45,000 to the National Republican Senatorial Committee and the National Republican Congressional Committee alone.
JACK RABBIT
JACK RABBIT
Pressure is growing among ideologues inside Washington, D.C., to turn the hurricane-ravaged Gulf Coast into a Petri dish for free-market "solutions." Plans already are being drawn up behind closed doors without any input from the more than 700,000 Americans who were washed from their homes. The Wall Street Journal reports that 40 members of a conservative congressional caucus met in a closed session at the Heritage Foundation on Sept. 13 to map out their strategy, almost giddy with the prospects. Among the "relief initiatives" this group is expected to press: Limit victims' rights to sue; lift environmental restrictions; create "tax advantaged enterprise zones" to maximize private participation in recovery and reconstruction; and launch a voucher plan for all evacuated students to use at the schools of their choice, including private and parochial schools. Although the AFT welcomed Education Secretary Margaret Spellings' promised new support for schools, students and teachers affected by the disaster, the plan includes almost half a billion dollars for vouchers. AFT president Edward J. McElroy urged Congress to work quickly "to fulfill the needs of students and the schools that serve them, rather than an ideological agenda" spearheaded by vouchers.
popcorn
Machinehead
bash. LOL
_____________________________________________________________________
"good post"
ShunkW
Sw
-----Original Message-----
From: World_P...@googlegroups.com [mailto:World_P...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Mark Christiansen
ShunkW
Gigi (tempest)
----- Original Message -----
From: "popcorn" <humoru...@yahoo.com>
To: "World_Politics" <World_P...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 4:14 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: About Homosexuality
>
> good post
>
>
Mark Christiansen
What law has he pass? He mention some ideas but has
he done anything to stop gay rights?
ShunkW
homosexuality over and over again. He should be a spokesman for his party so if his
party attacks homosexuality and he stands silent then he is guilty of being detrimental
to gays and lesbians. It is just like Ronnie Reagan who refused to mention the word aids
for years even though millions were dying of it.
His party has also used homosexuality as a "wedge" issue to try and divide the nation
and he has endorsed this strategy.