piercings
annx33
it, but my partner (her other mother) is not. As a professor in an
art school, my partner has been to too many hospital ERs with
students who have had infections, not to mention extreme regrets
around piercings. She is really against it for our 14 year old. I'm
wondering how others have handled this sort of thing; differences
between spouses around things the kids want to do. I would like to
ease the tension around this -- dd keeps asking and it's causing
strife. I'd like to support them both. I'm looking for a win/win
here. Any ideas?
Thanks so much, Ann
unschooling mom to ds 16, ds 16, dd, 14
Sandra Dodd
wondering how others have handled this sort of thing; differences
We told Holly to wait. She wanted to pierce her lip. Her dad's very
opposed to piercings (even ears). She was fine with waiting. She
told one of her friends that her dad gives her allowance and pays for
her gas, so she doesn't mind going along with him on stuff like this.
(Pretty cool.)
My objection is that Holly has skin like her dad and grandmother and
one of her uncles--easily infected and slow to heal. If she gets an
infection after she's 18, that's the decision of an adult (partial
adult anyway), but if the law says she need parental signatures, it
wouldn't be any more sensible for her to "make" us sign (under guilt
or durress) any more than if we made her do things like that.
Last time this came up, Rue Kream said they let their kids have
piercings because they didn't want to make decisions for their kids
(I'm not quoting, I'm paraphrasing and maybe badly, so if someone
could link to that other discussion I'd really appreciate it.
Holly's going to be 18 in November. She' talking about getting a
tattoo of the largest of the trees of my unschooling page logo that
our friend Bo did. She's not talking about a small tree, either, but
all up her side. While I'm flattered at the art thought (and Bo's
pretty thrilled), I worry about that much skin disturbance on someone
with such sensitive skin. I expressed that concern, and if she does
it at 18 or not, I won't feel the angst (or legal liability) I might
if we signed for her to do it now.
It's not an arbitrary age we made up. My mom said I could get my ears
pierced and wear makeup when I was 14, and date when I was 15. She
just made those years up.
Sandra
Lylawolf
similar in our home. last year, my daughter (then 13) really wanted
to get her nose pierced. i was find with it, her dad not so much.
eventually, she wrote him a long letter detailing her desire, her
reasoning, and her respect for his ultimate decision, with a request
that he reconsider. he did. she did. she's very happy. now, at 14
(in 3 days) she wants to get her lip pierced. she has wanted to for a
while, but she finally just wrote "the letter" again a few days ago.
she was very respectful and said in her letter that she didn't want to
push us, and definitely would accept no for an answer, she had done
her research on healing times etc.
her dad wrote her back (email) saying that he wouldn't stop her, but
detailing his concerns, which he simply requested that she consider
seriously. they mostly centered around judgment by others out in the
bigger world.
on the positive side, he has been really open and flexible in terms
of not putting his foot down about something like this, which he
recognizes as not so important in the scheme of things. on the not so
positive side, i think he feels a bit marginalized in terms of the
level of importance or value that his general orientation and views
are given in the family, not intentionally (our daughter would
certainly abide by his desire if he expressed it strongly), but just
in terms of family culture. i still have not figured out how to
address that, really, but that is a broader topic.
warmly, Lyla
Rue Kream
>>Last time this came up, Rue Kream said they let their kids have
piercings because they didn't want to make decisions for their kids
(I'm not quoting, I'm paraphrasing and maybe badly, so if someone
could link to that other discussion I'd really appreciate it.
**I don't have a link to that discussion, but I do have the post I sent:
Dagny has had her ears (lobes and cartilage) and nose pierced, and has
done a bit of gauging. Piercing is a pretty major interest for her.
She was 15 when she got her nose ring, so Jon (who went with her) did
have to sign some paperwork. For us it was a meaningless exercise. Jon
and I don't give or withhold permission when our kids make choices.
Sure, legally we have the right to do so. Legally we have the right to
curtail our kids' freedom in lots of ways. Our family has chosen a
different way to live in relationship with each other. The four of us
have an understanding that Jon and I will not ever pull what we call the
parenting trump card.
That wouldn't be possible if Jon and I weren't on the same page as far
as our core beliefs, even while our individual comfort levels are very
different.
So far when one of our kids has stepped over what I think of as the Pat
Farenga line <g> ("When pressed, I define unschooling as allowing
children as much freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can
comfortably bear."), when they've wanted more freedom to learn in the
world than one or both of us parents could comfortably bear - and I
wouldn't say the nose piercing was one of those times for us, but we
have had some - we've been able to kind of carry each other through it
and re-ground each other in what we believe. And looking back I'd say
every time we've stepped out of our comfort zone to help our kids do
something they've decided they want to do the trust and respect between
us all has grown enormously.
~Rue
Pam Sorooshian
about my comfort zone and my husband's and how to handle the differences.
Roya had her nose pierced and wears a tiny little sparkly thing in it -
she loves it, I'm not a fan of that look, in general, because it bears a
resemblance to a shiny pimple or wart or growth or something, to me, but
I chalk that up to me being an old fuddy-duddy who can't quite get with
the times on the piercings thing. It doesn't appeal to me. But, I didn't
make my aesthetic preferences part of the decision. If I'd had medical
concerns, I would have brought those up, but this wasn't the case. So, I
dragged my feet a little to make sure she'd thought through her choice
and it wasn't an impulse she'd quickly regret. But she did get it done
and she loves it, still, years later.
Beautiful tattoos, on the other hand, I find to be quite appealing and I
love to look at people's tattoos and ask them about why they chose the
design and who made it and all that. I think it is a wonderful art form
- which can be tasteful and lovely or tacky, of course. None of my kids
has any desire for a tattoo - they are total wimps regarding needles and
also they feel like they are too young to decide to do something so
permanent. They figure that if they decide to have tattoos, it will be
when they are middle aged and have more life experience and are more
sure what it is they want to permanently decorate their own body with.
Mine are all 18 or over, but if they wanted a tattoo, they'd ask my
advice. My advice would be to hold off and my reasoning would be that
they don't know yet what kind of lifestyle they will want to live in the
fairly-near future - next ten years, say. My advice is to hold off on
tattoos until they have a little more surety that they won't be a
hindrance to them in future career choices, for example.
So - when I read Rue's post, I thought I would probably be giving advice
against piercings and tattoos, but if my kids considered my advice and
still wanted to do it, I'd go ahead and accept their decision and help
them out with it and appreciate it.
The real complication is the part about the other spouse not being in
agreement. If my husband opposed it and my kids were under 18, I would
probably not sign. But if my child felt strongly about it and I felt had
really considered my advice and my husband's concerns, I'd probably try
to talk my husband into accepting it on the basis of putting their
relationship first and not getting into a power struggle over it. If my
husband seemed totally dead-set against it and finding it very difficult
to accept, I'd talk to my daughter about being understanding of him and
being willing to hold off out of love and respect for him.
I'm not sure about piercings like lip piercings in terms of how they
close up and heal over if the person changes their mind, later. My ears
have been pierced so many years, they will never close up - I've gone
years without earrings and the holes are still just the same. I do kind
of feel uncomfortable about a 14 year old making that choice if the
holes are forever. If that's the case, I'd be the parent asking him or
her to wait. My kids have always seemed to have some level of respect
for the aging process - seemed to understand that they might see things
differently in a year or two or ten. So if I said, "I think you might be
really glad you waited if you give it a year," they'd probably go along
with that.
Anyway - I don't know if I have helped or not - but there you have one
person's rambling thoughts on the whole thing.
-pam
Ann Carlson
played here, my spouse is so opposed to piercings, and for now, me
too; I'm backing up my spouse on this one.
From my sense of my daughter's request, piercing isn't a deep passion
or curiosity in and of itself; Nora really loves fashion and putting
looks together; she was around a friend of a friend this weekend who
got her belly button pierced because she made "honors" in high school.
<?> There's an impulsiveness to her request, which is OK, I can
certainly see things once and want them, and yet when it comes to a
lasting cut into the body I think research is necessary.
I almost suggested that we do the research together around the
legalities of getting it done, where she could get it done safely and
how long it takes to heal, etc etc. But, if my spouse feels so
strongly against it, that suggestion seems off-base, it would seem
conspiratorial or something. On the other hand, Nora might learn
about the process and know how the healing might impact her soccer
playing, or all the swimming she does. It hasn't come up today, but
she could be hesitant to ask again, because the request got such a
strong reaction from my spouse.
Hmmm, and that may have been part of the point. There's a flurry of
emotion around my daughter, pretty regularly these days. She feels
things intensely and it almost seems that she'll stir up emotional
charge around her if there's charge lacking. When I do remember to
breathe and step to the side of it a little, I observe/feel a drive in
her to shake things up, push at the envelope of calmness and ease, it
seems sometimes that if things get too happy or calm, she searches
for an eruption. I want to be careful not to paint it as a bad
thing; it serves her well in theater and intense sports activities;
it's definitely a dynamic that I feel I need be prepared for.
Sometimes in relating to my daughter, I feel I'm an actor in a greek
drama, playing a role that I've been cast in but no one told me I was
even IN a play.
This leads me into an issue as an unschooling parent to three teens
that perplexes me. It has to do with the weight and timing of their
requests. I want to do everything I can to support, respond,
consider and provide for that their interests and desires, these days
I'm unsure when to jump in and when to back off a little to see if
they'll follow through for themselves.
Taking the example of Nora wanting her navel pierced; if she had
already done a little of the research, and thought it through a
little, the response to her might have been different. But sometimes
the request for a new guitar, or a navel piercing or a trip to Hawaii
is also symbolic; particularly at this moment in their growth. I read
once in a post that an unschooling mom said she waited til her kids
asked for something 3 times before taking action on it. That was
interesting to me, not so much as a rule of thumb, but as a kind
measure of the depth of an interest. I'm often wondering to myself,
do I provide the way for these things to happen immediately, or assist
and partner with them to do it themselves?
-Ann.
Rue Kream
daughter is interested more in the fashion aspect of belly piercings,
maybe she'd be interested in magnetic or spring body jewelry? Rowan
wears magnetic earrings, as she feels pretty much the opposite of the
way Dagny feels about body modification, and they stay on very well.
~Rue
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/30/2009 5:53 AM, Ann Carlson wrote:
> But sometimes
> the request for a new guitar, or a navel piercing or a trip to Hawaii
> is also symbolic; particularly at this moment in their growth. I read
> once in a post that an unschooling mom said she waited til her kids
> asked for something 3 times before taking action on it. That was
> interesting to me, not so much as a rule of thumb, but as a kind
> measure of the depth of an interest. I'm often wondering to myself,
> do I provide the way for these things to happen immediately, or assist
> and partner with them to do it themselves?
That could have been me. I have very very intense kids - not at all what
people would call "easy-going" or calm or happy-go-lucky. They love life
- they love experience - they love to jump into things with both feet.
Someone whose known my kids for about 14 years said to me, "For your
children things are either completely wonderful or tragic, but never
just okay." Her kids are the opposite - sort of unflappable and
generally content, but they don't seem super excited or distraught by
much of anything.
My kids like to "try on" or "try out" new ideas or possibilities. So,
they might say, "I was thinking I'd like to .... be an astronaut or a
ballet dancer or ....whatever comes to mind." Or they might say, "I wish
I had a motorcycle." Or "I want to get my naval pierced."
I know if some kids said these things, it would mean they'd already
thought about it and really did want it and the parent ought to get into
support mode and help them achieve their dreams. But for my kids, that
might be the first time the thought has entered their head. So, I don't
jump immediately into a practical sort of support mode, but I might just
respond with, "Ah, interesting idea." Or even just, "Hmmm, ya think?"
Or, "What made you think of that?" Anyway - they aren't going to get my
heart racing with excitement or concern right off the bat - I'm used to
them processing through lots of ideas, trying them on by acting as if
they're really seriously planning to do them, and then discarding them.
It is fair to say that most of the time they'd have to bring it up
several times before I'd probably do much about it.
The above isn't a 100 percent thing - just more of a tendency. I use my
own good sense and experience. Sometimes they'll mention something
pretty big - Roya once decided to move to Wisconsin (from California) to
live with her boyfriend. I didn't get all worried about it right away, I
stayed calm and reasonable, because she'd had lots of plans before that
she'd changed her mind on once she'd considered them more. I would, at
first, just say, "that sounds exciting," or something to show I was
listening and paying attention, but I would not be jumping up to help
make plans right away. Dragging my feet just a little was most
definitely part of my response to Roya, especially. Once it seemed,
though, that she really did want something, I'd get involved. I'm not
saying, "drag my feet" in a negative way, either, I'd be open to more
talking about it and sometimes take some step toward it. Like with the
moving to Wisconsin idea - I did pick up some maps from the auto club
for her. I take her ideas seriously, but don't get overly invested
immediately because I know from experience that, even though they look
really super into something, it might pass very quickly. I try not to be
more into new big ideas than they are.If I was too intense, too quick to
grab onto an idea that they were really tossing out to play with, then
they'd stop letting me be in on that part of their processing, I think.
But - you have to know your own kids. Some process internally and the
first time you hear about it, they're ready to move on it.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
do I provide the way for these things to happen immediately, or assist
For me, if it's something expensive or hugely time consuming (my time,
for instance), I move more quickly to do the things that provide the
most learning experience. Learning is the big priority here, and so
something new or advantageous or potentially career-building is a
likely yes.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
thought about it and really did want it and the parent ought to get into
There are dreams (or urges or whims) that will improve and enrich a
child (or teen, or young adult), and there are others that are
potentially harmful or limiting. There are things Keith would lend
Kirby money for and things he would not. When Holly wanted a Vespa,
Keith heard her, but he didn't start looking for one. He's always
sure that Holly is driving the safest car we have, and that it's kept
in good repair. And when her boyfriend's car didn't have brake
lights, Keith pressed him to get them fixed, if he was going to be
driving Holly around.
I think some unschoolers come to feel they have an obligation to
support risky or dangerous things equally with wonderful, clearly
uplifting things.
Holly has the busiest plans anyone here's ever had, in the next
several months. If all goes as scheduled, in less than a year's time
she will go to:
Silver City, New Mexico for a week, including
Palomas, Mexico for a day
Des Moines, Iowa for ten days
Austin, Texas for three days
San Diego, California for a conference
Corvallis, Oregon for a few months (or longer)
Santa Fe for the SUSS conference in January
Montreal, Quebec for a month or more
She's really excited about it all. I can see it as a wonderful set of
opportunities, and I know she will learn more in the next year than
some people learn in five. That's great. But I have fears, even
though she'll always be staying with family or unschooling families
(or, in Silver City, a married childless couple we know well).
Keith's worry is the day in Palomas, because of the border problems
these days. I wouldn't want her to go to Juarez. She'll turn 18
in November, but for going into Mexico, we're going to send a letter
saying they have our permission to take her into Mexico. We did the
same thing for the McNeills to take her into France from the U.K. when
she visited England at fourteen.
We're not helpless, and she's not doing things we fear too much to say
yes.
Sandra