Not New to Group Intro & Question

[OHPU...@aol.com]

Hi,

 

I am Robin, partner to Ron (today is our 10 year anniversary) and Mommy to 9y.o. Melissa, 7y.o. Sam and 2 y.o. Madison.  Foster mom to 6 year old Anthony.  We live in Cape Cod, MA.  My husband is a police officer and I stay at home with our happy clan.  Radical unschooling has changed our lives and we are all thriving!

 

We have been homeschooling/unschooling from the beginning and radically unschooling for the past several months.  I have been lurking on this list for a while and am amazed at the wise, wonderful help I have found here.  Sandra, specifically, your wisdom has helped me tremendously.  I am a better mother, wife and person thanks to reading your posts and visiting your web sites.  I was shocked recently to learn that you didn't grow up in a plastic, shiny, happy bubble.  You are an amazing woman!  

 

I don't have many unschooling questions as those were addressed early on by my mentors :) on the UB list. Since I grasped the concepts of RU, I have usually been able to figure out the mindful way to deal with issues that arise.  When I feel clueless I refer to our bible: Parenting A Free Child and always find answers there or on Sandra's site.

 

My question that I am having difficulty with is how others deal with not so mindful parents and adults who are abusive (in my presence) to their own children or to my children.

 

Example:  My son just had a tonsillectomy/adenoidectomy to help his severe obstructive sleep apnea.  He woke up in the recovery room screaming in pain and wanting to blow his nose.  The nurse repeatedly threatened him to stop blowing his nose and told him "You just had surgery Sam, you don't want to have to go back in and have to do it again."  This was five minutes out of anesthesia. She told him to stop crying about a hundred times, making him sob.  She threatened him a few more times once while trying to force him to eat a popsicle that he was clearly not ready for, she told him she'd have to have me leave the room if he didn't do what he was supposed to.  I told him I wasn't going anywhere but really wanted to address her. Then, when he was moved to his room and the nurse came in and shoved a tube of liquid Tylenol with codeine into his half awake mouth he freaked out and spewed it all over her and she threatened that he wouldn't be able to go home the next day if he didn't take his meds.  I told her that he needed a few minutes and asked her to leave the room but I really wanted to address the threatening and coercion which continued throughout the night.  I have some issues (fears)about hospital staff stemming from my birth with Sam 7 year's ago.  After pushing for 7 hours at home, my midwife rushed us to the hospital and I had a cruel, heartless nurse who abused me throughout the night (12 hr shift) after I wouldn't let her take my baby to the nursery and after setting her straight about breastfeeding on demand and a few other issues.  I was at her mercy (she was evil!) and I felt that at the hospital last week with Sam.  I was afraid to tell them off because I didn't know of a mindful way to do it that wouldn't negatively affect Sam and I for the remainder of our stay.  I feel like I let my son down by not addressing their cruelty.  How have others dealt with these types of icky people?

 

Yesterday at the Trader Joe's a mom with a tiny baby in the front of her carriage and a 2 year old in the back kept verbally abusing him in every aisle and it continued into the parking lot where she slammed him into his car seat, screaming at him, etc.  He was a tiny boy with a damaged spirit and very sad expression.  I honestly wished I could steal him and save him.

 

Basically, since I have fully embraced mindful parenting and radical unschooling I have a really hard time witnessing abusive parents/people and keeping my mouth shut.  Is there a gentle way to remind a person that she is being cruel to a very young person?

 

Thanks for reading and sorry it turned out so long.

 

Warmly,

Robin

 

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I am Robin, partner to Ron (today is our 10 year anniversary)-=-

Happy anniversary!  

-=-Sandra, specifically, your wisdom has helped me tremendously.  I am a better mother, wife and person thanks to reading your posts and visiting your web sites.-=-

Thanks!  Good. Good for your kids!

There's a selfish element in it for me.  I'd hate for my kids to be the only ones who had such backgrounds and ideas, so I'm trying to help sow the seeds of other happy kids so mine won't grow up lonely and ultimately mad at me.  I think the technical term is "enlightened self interest."  I hope my kids meet yours someday, work together on something, say "Yeah, me too!" about something they rarely get to say it about. <g>

-=- I was shocked recently to learn that you didn't grow up in a plastic, shiny, happy bubble. -=-

I found shiny happy moments, and my dad was cool, and some teachers took interest in me and I still correspond with my 4th grade teacher.  My bubble was bigger than my family.   

Pam Sorooshian and I have discussed this in person, that maybe a happy childhood where one wasn't hit and shamed isn't the best starting place for awareness of the contras.  I have no idea what words we used, and it's not flowing out here, but it helps to know what you do NOT want to do.  Going along vaguely doing what parents did can work sometimes, but it can be hard to dissect and analyze it if it was comfortable.   

And additionally, it's an interpersonal-intelligence kind of field.  Some people can be analytical about something like soccer or fencing.  They can feel, and see and describe postures and muscle use and angles, and others can just do it. Some can neither do it NOR be analytical. <g>  (Me, about sports.)

Some people see relationships and they see what's working and what isn't. Some feel powerless in the sweep of interpersonals.  I think a lot of what this list tries to do is to help people latch on to what they can understand and expand it and use it.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I was afraid to tell them off because I didn't know of a mindful way to do it that wouldn't negatively affect Sam and I for the remainder of our stay.  I feel like I let my son down by not addressing their cruelty.  How have others dealt with these types of icky people?-=-

I couldn't tell from what you wrote whether you did talk to them in private.   I would probably have talked to a supervisor.  Problem is, they change every eight hours.  Hospitals don't provide much consistency of care, honestly, in the subtle ways (and sometimes the bigger ones) because even after three shifts, the personnel are unlikely to be the same as the day before.

-=-Yesterday at the Trader Joe's a mom with a tiny baby in the front of her carriage and a 2 year old in the back kept verbally abusing him in every aisle and it continued into the parking lot where she slammed him into his car seat, screaming at him, etc.  He was a tiny boy with a damaged spirit and very sad expression.-=-

Fantasy response:

"You need to go to WALmart to act like that. I expect better at Trader Joe's."

But then Holly talked to a woman at Walmart once, and said she should be nicer.

I've had good responses and bad responses from people if I say "You should be nicer to him" or "He just wants to see better."  I've only half a dozen times really directly said "Hey..." to someone.  More often I talk to the kid and say "It's hard to see up there, but it's not too exciting.  They have some movie posters that's about it.  If you stand back a bit you can see them."  (at the video rental store)  or "Those carts aren't too comfortable, are they?" to a little kid wiggling to get out.  Sometimes just something that's a glancing or ricochet comment can help and not be so threatening to the mom.  

Twice I've said to someone who had swatted a kid "If a man had hit you, we'd all be calling 911."  One glared and muttered, and the other got all big defensive,and came after me later, yelling, but I didn't really  mind because it made her look bad, and the longterm result is that she WILL be less likely to swat, if for no other reason than she'd fear another person like me.

Sandra

[Amy]

I usually offer to help in some way.

I come up and say something to the effect of how hard it can be to shop with little kids. Then offer to help. If the baby is little I offer to hold hem and if they are older I try and distract the kids by singing a silly song or some such nonsense. While I'm standing there I also talk about what developmental stage their child is at and what is normal behavior to expect. I try to model how to deal with the issues that come up at their childs age. I've always done this. Now with my own kids in tow it may seem odd to be offering to help them but my kids are fine and a good example of what I'm trying to show them.

I have physically intervened on a child behalf twice. Usually just me being there and making it clear that I am paying attention is enough to stop the angry parent from loosing their temper.

This is a pretty big pet peeve for me. I have a real problem with people making remarks and then just walking away. I believe that if you decide there is a problem then you should offer to help.




Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com

Wife to Casey
Mom to Quinlon
and Morgan Moira

Cleaning and cooking can wait for tomorrow,
For babies grow up, I've learned, to my sorrow.
So quiet down, cobwebs, dust, go to sleep.
I'm rocking my baby, and babies don't keep.

---

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2｢/min or less.

[elizabeth roberts]

(HUGS) Was that Falmouth or Cape Cod hospital? I always thought the care at Falmouth was better...had my two girls there even though Cape Cod was closer (we'd lived in Bourne on Otis and then out in Harwich).

 

Beth

OHPU...@aol.com wrote:

---

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[amyLS]

" I was afraid to tell them off because I didn't know of a mindful way
to do it that wouldn't negatively affect Sam and I for the remainder of
our stay."

Sometimes nurses develop an authority complex. It's a tough job
as a mom, to discern whether a nurse has a good, stern demeanor (which
can be a positive thing), or simply a disregard for her patient's
feelings. Nurses (and schoolteachers!) are often overburdened, and
some of them get comfortable with a bitchy, pushy mindset. When people
step over the line and try to exert too much authority, and especially
when they are causing unnecessary distress to others, I find that it's
best to just swallow your tender side, stand up tall, move toward them
physically and state your objection very firmly and calmly. And don't
break eye contact.
You saw your son feeling intimidated, and of course you were
upset, which made it easy for YOU to feel too intimidated to intervene.
Learning to speak up and to counter a person's abuse of authority is
tough. It's a skill to be learned. And WORTH it... because no matter
how uncomfortable it feels to face off with someone, it is better than
all the feelings that persist after you DON'T face off.
By the way (and I know we are way off unschooling topic
here)... maternity nurses have us by the 'ovaries', so to speak. A
woman in labor is at their mercy! Thank goodness for the kind ones.

"Is there a gentle way to remind a person that she is being cruel
to a very young person? "

One way I deal with this is to provide a distraction to both the
child and the parent. Just interrupting is helpful;... for instance,
coming up in a friendly manner and complimenting the child on his/her
cool sneakers, neat toy, pretty doll, or how much his little sibling
looks like him, or 'did you see how nice it is outside?! What are you
gonna do today?' In the grocery aisles, even an outright lie: "Hey,
sweetie, could you reach me one of those cans on the bottom shelf? It
hurts my back to lean down.."
I think that alot of times, the ugly dynamic between sad kid and
angry mom is exacerbated by no outside contact. I certainly remember
many days when my first two were little, when the only interaction I
had outside our little bubble was to say 'hello' and 'thanks' to a
cashier. So just coming up and being friendly, I think, is often
enough to knock an angry mom out of her negative groove, at least for a
while.

[OHPU...@aol.com]

In a message dated 8/16/2006 10:47:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, moms...@msn.com writes:

Learning to speak up and to counter a person's abuse of authority is
tough.  It's a skill to be learned.  And WORTH it... because no matter
how uncomfortable it feels to face off with someone, it is better than
all the feelings that persist after you DON'T face off.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

So true and I have this burning desire to help the next victims.  I'm going to learn to address these people and be armed and ready if it happens again.  I like your method of standing tall and maintaining eye contact.  I can do that.  I have done it.  We frequently come in contact with another cold person, a less than child friendly children's librarian who I can practice on.

 

As far as helping/distracting frustrated abusive parents I appreciate the tips on what works and they make sense.  Thank you!

 

Robin, feeling empowered and less guilty for not handling things better.  Next time-BEWARE!

[OHPU...@aol.com]

In a message dated 8/16/2006 7:16:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, joyfu...@yahoo.com writes:

(HUGS) Was that Falmouth or Cape Cod hospital? I always thought the care at Falmouth was better...had my two girls there even though Cape Cod was closer (we'd lived in Bourne on Otis and then out in Harwich).

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

We were at Boston Children's where you think they'd know better.  It is a child friendly place in so many ways.  I will help them see the light.  My daughter is due to have some moles removed there.  I think I'll post a sign on her door - No threats, coercion or cruelty past this point. 

 

Robin

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-Learning to speak up and to counter a person's abuse of authority is

tough.  It's a skill to be learned.  And WORTH it... because no matter

how uncomfortable it feels to face off with someone, it is better than

all the feelings that persist after you DON'T face off.-=-

It's not worth it to everyone.

That's one of those things that would have worked better as "an 'I' message."

"Learning to speak up is tough, a skill I had to learn, but worth it because though it's uncomfortable it's better than the feelings I used to have if I didn't face off."

Some people have more capacity for approaching others than others.  Some have more capacity for courage and figuring out what to do when the other person says or does whatever THEY do.  You can't just learn a speech, because the other person will respond.  

Some people have more capacity for confrontation and standing firm in the midst of strong emotions than others do.

Some people, maybe because they might have been mistreated when they themselves were young, can't go into those situations without becoming upset again themselves.

It's not good to make others feel guilty for not being confrontational.  Throwing ideas around is good.  Throwing guilt around isn't.

In my own town, in my own surroundings, I've noticed people being gentle and sweet with kids way more than I used to.  I've seen parents, grandparents, store clerks and strangers smiling and being patient with all kinds and ages of kids.  

Every time I'm nice with mine it nudges the group behavior more that direction.  Where I live, swatting and yelling isn't as common as it once was.  That makes it easier for me to say something when I do see it, but I'm glad it's rare.  If it were as commonplace as when I was little, that would be the majority behavior and it's harder to stand up to majority behavior than to isolated incidents.

Some people here are in rougher neighborhoods than others, in various senses of that idea.

Sandra

[rinagro...@hotmail.com]

Dear Robin

I'm shocked to hear how the nurse reacted. My 12 year old son recently
had (just) his adenoids out and cried after the operation for about 20
minutes. There were kids howling in other rooms. The nurse told me that
all kids cry after the operation (not true, because the the next day my
8 year old daughter had the same operation and didn't cry at all). But
I would say that 99 percent of the time they do cry. Was this her first
time on a paediatric ward, or something???? (I should type that last
sentence in capitals!)

I think it's the after-effects of the anaesthetic, as well as the pain.
I had a miscarriage with a D and C under general anaesthetic between my
first and second children and the worst thing about it was waking up
after the anaesthetic. it made me feel really ill and depressed.

BTW, my son also blew his nose, and the nurse told him firmly not to do
it again, because it could make him bleed. I can understand her
telling him he wouldn't want to do it again because that could have
been a consequence, but it was probably her tone and all the other
stuff piled on top of that that she did that really sucks.

Rina in Germany, where the hospital staff is not generally sensitive.

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> <DIV>Hi,</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>I am Robin, partner to Ron (today is our 10 year anniversary) and Mommy=
> to 9y.o. Melissa, 7y.o. Sam and 2 y.o. Madison.&nbsp; Foster mom to 6 year=20=
> old Anthony.&nbsp; We live in Cape Cod, MA.&nbsp; My husband is a police off=
> icer and I stay at home with our happy clan.&nbsp; Radical unschooling has c=
> hanged our lives and we are all thriving!</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>We have been homeschooling/unschooling from the beginning and radically=
> unschooling for the past several months.&nbsp; I have been lurking on this=20=
> list for a while and am amazed at the wise, wonderful help I have found here=
> .&nbsp; Sandra, specifically, your wisdom has helped me tremendously.&nbsp;=20=
> I am a better mother, wife and person&nbsp;thanks to&nbsp;reading your posts=
> and visiting your web sites. &nbsp;I was shocked recently to learn that you=
> didn't grow up in a plastic, shiny, happy bubble.&nbsp; You are an amazing=20=
> woman! &nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>I don't have many unschooling questions as those were addressed early o=
> n by my mentors :) on&nbsp;the UB list.&nbsp;Since I grasped the concepts of=
> RU, I have&nbsp;usually been able to figure out the mindful way to deal wit=
> h issues that arise.&nbsp;&nbsp;When I&nbsp;feel clueless I refer to our bib=
> le: Parenting A Free Child and always find answers there or on Sandra's site=
> .</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>My question that I am having difficulty with is how others deal with no=
> t so mindful parents and adults who are abusive (in my presence) to their ow=
> n children or to my children.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Example:&nbsp; My son just had a tonsillectomy/adenoidectomy to help hi=
> s severe obstructive sleep apnea.&nbsp; He woke up in the recovery room scre=
> aming in pain and wanting to blow his nose.&nbsp; The nurse repeatedly threa=
> tened him to stop blowing his nose and told him "You just had surgery Sam, y=
> ou don't want to have to go back in and have to do it again."&nbsp; This was=
> five minutes out of anesthesia.&nbsp;She told him to stop crying about a hu=
> ndred times, making him sob. &nbsp;She threatened him a few more times once=20=
> while trying to force him to eat a popsicle that he was clearly not ready fo=
> r, she told him she'd have to have me leave the room if he didn't do what he=
> was supposed to.&nbsp; I told him I wasn't going anywhere but really wanted=
> to address her.&nbsp;Then, when he was moved to his room and the nurse came=
> in and shoved a tube of liquid Tylenol with codeine into his half awake mou=
> th he freaked out and spewed it all over her and she threatened that he woul=
> dn't be able to go home the next day if he didn't take his meds.&nbsp; I tol=
> d her that he needed a few minutes and asked her to leave the room but I rea=
> lly wanted to address the threatening and coercion which continued throughou=
> t the night.&nbsp; I have some issues (fears)about hospital staff stemming f=
> rom my birth with Sam 7 year's ago.&nbsp; After pushing for 7 hours at home,=
> my midwife rushed us to the hospital and I had a cruel, heartless nurse who=
> abused me throughout the night (12 hr shift) after I wouldn't let her take=20=
> my baby to the nursery and after setting her straight about breastfeeding on=
> demand and a few other issues.&nbsp; I was at her mercy (she was evil!) and=
> I felt that at the hospital last week with Sam.&nbsp; I was afraid to tell=20=
> them off because I didn't know of a mindful way to do it that wouldn't negat=
> ively affect Sam and I for the remainder of our stay.&nbsp; I feel like I le=
> t my son down by not addressing their cruelty.&nbsp; How have others dealt w=
> ith these types of icky people?</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Yesterday at the Trader Joe's a mom with a tiny baby in the front of he=
> r carriage and a 2 year old in the back kept verbally abusing him in every a=
> isle and it continued into the parking lot where she slammed him into his ca=
> r seat, screaming at him, etc.&nbsp; He was a tiny boy with a damaged spirit=
> and very sad expression.&nbsp; I honestly wished I could steal him and save=
> him.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Basically, since I have fully&nbsp;embraced mindful parenting and radic=
> al unschooling I have a really hard time witnessing abusive parents/people a=
> nd keeping my mouth shut.&nbsp; Is there a gentle way to remind a person tha=
> t she is being cruel to a very young person?</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Thanks for reading and sorry it turned out so long.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Warmly,</DIV>
> <DIV>Robin</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> -------------------------------1155736497--

[amyLS]

"It's not good to make others feel guilty for not being
confrontational. Throwing ideas around is good. Throwing guilt
around isn't."

I didn't mean to sound directive, or whatever tone it was that
may have sounded like 'throwing guilt around'. If you told me that
sewing was a great skill, and that I'd be glad to learn it because I
would save money or something, ... well, I KNOW I am never going to
learn to sew, but I wouldn't feel guilty!
Moving on... I just had an experience of stepping in when
someone was mis-handling a child. We were at a family cottage with my
mom, her friend, and her friend's children. One of the children is a
foster child. His mother was mentally disabled and also behaviorally
unstable. The friend was a 'host' to the mom... the mom and baby lived
in her home under her guidance. The mom got aggressive and a bit
dangerous, and was placed in a structured facility. The baby (then 3)
stayed with the friend. His name is Kyle, and he is 7. He has very
mild retardation and cerebral palsy. He is difficult to engage, and
gets very angry when approached in a controlling manner. If he
perceives any threat, he just says 'NO!' very loudly, and then ignores
everything.
I enjoyed engaging him...showing him the baby squirrel I am
caring for, coaxing him out of his shell a bit. He opened up quite a
bit... he actually told me that he hates school because it is boring
and they treat him like a baby.
Anyway, at breakfast this morning. I cooked and served plates,
my mom poured drinks at the table, and the friend (Kyle's foster mom)
was out taking care of her goat. We had 10 kids at the table. My mom
gets cranky with mealtimes (she sees them as a big chore, and gioves
off this vibe that the kids, and all the mess, are a pain in the neck).
Kyle was last to be served, so he wandered toward the table with his
plate. My mom was visibly aggrieved at the task of fitting in one more
kid at the table. She heaved a sigh and made a big deal of moving two
kids' chairs to make room. Kyle saw this. She said,'Okay Kyle... do
you want to sit here?'........ it was said in a 'tone'. He frowned
and gave her a loud 'NO!'
It was obvious that he had picked up on her aggravation, and did
not want to be part of any of it. But she got angry... she started
moving very briskly, and put on a fake tone: "OH! OK, you don't want
to sit with the other kids? Then you go stand here and eat by
yourself....' and she marched him over to the card table.
I had been washing my hands and listening, and I stepped in
there and said 'Mom, stop!!' I said it lightly, and guided Kyle to the
table and sat him down. I wanted her to just go and eat her eggs in
the other room like she was waiting to do. She got very huffy with
me...'I was just trying to help him!...He mouthed off to me and I won't
stand for that!'
I deflected her and poured her coffee... she was mad at me for
about ten minutes. When it comes to stepping in... one's own family is
harder in ways, and easier in others. I loved the story (I think from
Sandra?) about the time a cranky aunt took a kid's dessert away because
he didn't eat his dinner... and the mom seamlessly just slid her own
dessert over to him. Point made, no words.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- I had been washing my hands and listening, and I stepped in

there and said 'Mom, stop!!' I said it lightly, and guided Kyle to the
table and sat him down. I wanted her to just go and eat her eggs in
the other room like she was waiting to do. She got very huffy with
me...'I was just trying to help him!...He mouthed off to me and I won't

stand for that!'-=-

I'm embarrassed on behalf of other adults when they really can't see
that they've just done the very thing they're angry at a kid for doing.

This afternoon I was very frustrated and cranky and feeling
unappreciated and worried that we were going to drive into a
rainstorm and be late and and and...
Marty, Keith and Holly just did things to make the trip happen more
quickly and smoothly, making concrete but gentle suggestions like
"Would you rather Marty drove?" and nobody got mad at me, and I tried
not to say anything TO anyone or about anyone, just to express that I
was feeling overwhelmed and like I'd had to do all the planning.
They knew I would calm down, and I knew it and tried to hurry it
along. We were laughing and joking when we were only about three
miles from the house. Rain didn't come until after the play, and we
were 20 minutes early.

Anyone involved could have made it worse, and I'm glad nobody did.
But I can think of more situations than I could count of times when
some adult (such as my mom) has gotten flustered that way and started
blaming anyone and everyone, but heaven help the others if they "talk
back" or tell her to chill out.

-=-I deflected her and poured her coffee... she was mad at me for

about ten minutes. When it comes to stepping in... one's own family is

harder in ways, and easier in others. -=-

I loved the story (I think from
Sandra?) about the time a cranky aunt took a kid's dessert away because
he didn't eat his dinner... and the mom seamlessly just slid her own

dessert over to him. Point made, no words.-=-

Keith's mom, a young Marty, me. I did say something like "Here,
Marty. You can have mine." Didn't say a word to his grandma, but
saw out of the corner of my eye that she started to say something to
me and then didn't.

As our kids got bigger she got nicer. <g>

Sandra