Have you tried the message boards of those who usually use these
books? You might be able to get some free or cheap, and some
advice. You're asking lots of people who don't use textbooks.
Sandra
You weren't talking about the occasional use of textbooks as reference.
Sandra
I forgot most of my high school algebra and
never studied calculus and we don't know where else but a used book to
get this info on the cheap. But now my son wants to do things A-B-
C, all formal! Really, I nearly took to my bed...
>>>>
if you google there are lots of different websites on algebra. If he is high school age he may be able to enroll for an in person or online class at a local community college with grant money. You can call friends and check in school dumpsters at the end of the year too :)
There is also the library which often has textbooks available for check out or try before you buy :)
but I am surprised that "lots" of people
here don't use textbooks, ever.
Most public school (or home educated kids) are well beyond "arithmetic"
in the 11th and 12th grade.
If your kid knows his 3R's, I would suggest that you buy a used algebra
book and see what he can teach himself. That's the "unschooling"
approach. Books published since about 1980 tend to integrate
"scientific calculators" and even graphing calculators with the study.
Older texts don't. There isn't anything particularly "magical" with
the Saxon books. Since they are "in print" even used they will cost a
lot more than something you pick up at a thrift shop. Basically,
whatever you happen to pick up, hand it to your kids and see what he can
make of it.
We routinely pick up old text books when we go to thrift shops or
library fund raising sales.
If the public schooled kids are still taking math at that point they
are. Many places don't have "higher math" requirements in high
school. Algebra, some geometry, maybe.
-=-If your kid knows his 3R's, I would suggest that you buy a used
algebra
book and see what he can teach himself. That's the "unschooling"
approach. -=-
That's one of very many unschooling approaches. It would move a
notch closer to the middle of unschooling if it's thought of in terms
of seeing what he can learn, rather than "what he can teach
himself." I think limiting to one source is one of the worst
mistakes school makes, and we don't need to repeat it.
Sandra
Well, if you buy a new textbook from wherever you have a real
investment. If you pick up a book at random from a thrift shop or
library sale, you have "invested" about $1. If your kid has trouble
with your $1 textbook, you have the option of telling him to forget it
for the time being until you find another book or two. If you buy a
Saxon test (and course?) you better hope they have a generous return
policy or else your kid will be stuck with a "my way or the highway"
road to learning algebra.
Letting a kid "teach himself" by bouncing among several "texts" is as
close as you can get to un-schooling in mathematics.
Algebra is one of those things which you either learn or you don't learn.
Or a piece of crap.
-=- If you pick up a book at random from a thrift shop or
library sale, you have "invested" about $1. If your kid has trouble
with your $1 textbook, you have the option of telling him to forget it
for the time being until you find another book or two. -=-
This doesn't sound like advice from an unschooler.
-=- If you buy a
Saxon test (and course?) you better hope they have a generous return
policy or else your kid will be stuck with a "my way or the highway"
road to learning algebra.
-=-
Why would a kid be stuck with anything? Are you thinking a parent
who buys a textbook would make a kid finish it? How does that have
anything to do with unschooling? Do you think a parent who bought a
dozen donuts would make a kid eat them all?
-=-Letting a kid "teach himself" by bouncing among several "texts" is as
close as you can get to un-schooling in mathematics.
-=-
Before I let another of your posts through, how about an introduction
from you? How's unschooling going at your house? I remember you
have a teenager, and you assured us that smoking isn't so harmful.
-=-Algebra is one of those things which you either learn or you don't
learn.-=-
Perhaps you mean that formal algebraic notation is something someone
either knows or doesn't. It's like reading music. There are
musicians who don't read music. There are people who read music who
aren't musicians, and their "reading" is like someone reading
phonetically in a language they hardly understand. There are people
who "learned" algebra who wouldn't be able to discuss it in English.
They did monkey tricks for eighteen weeks and got their food pellets
(report card).
Sandra
Holly will be 18 in November. Keith says it won't be okay with him
even if she's 35. So she'll take that into consideration. He didn't
want her to get her ears pierced, but she did, and took good care of
them. Then later she pierced her own ear a couple of times. He
seemed fine about it, except to remind her he thinks it's stupid.
My argument for letting her is that she takes really good care of
herself. She took excellent care of her braces--I never reminded or
pressured her, she just did it (so did Marty). She was at the
dentist last week and he said he wished all his patients' teeth were
taken care of as hers are. Blah blah... to say she's clean and
conscientious.
Keith's arguments are at a visceral level, though, and not really in
the realm of clear logic. I would wear earrings more often if Keith
hadn't told me he didn't like them. I like Keith. He takes really
good care of us.
So there. Other considerations.
Sandra
Our kids hear "no" so infrequently that it really means something
when we say it. It's very rare. We're only ten months from having
no legal say, everyone's getting along well, things are peaceful and
happy, and Holly can wait more easily than I can risk making Keith
feel totally unregarded. That's not worth doing.
Sandra
There are several brands. Here's one:
http://www.barcharts.com/Products/Laminated-Reference?CID=1225
We have several. I've always thought they were fun. You can put
them in the bathroom for people to read in there. Anything on one of
those that someone wanted to know more about could be researched on
the internet or in books around your house or the library.
Just for fun while my older girl was being "home schooled" I had her
take the previous year's SOL test for algebra. She had just finished
4th grade but had "skipped" 2nd grade. While she didn't "ace" it she
did get a passing grade. When she got her hands on an algebra text
book she taught herself algebra. Taking a test is a quick and dirty
way of discovering what is expected of you when you claim to have
completed a subject and a quick way of learning what you don't know.
Some of my kids' present teachers do what many of my "back then"
teachers did: They gave a "final exam" on the first day of class.
Since my older girl is a BIG reader, she actually did quite well on her
World History "final."
Course specific tests have great instruction value. The SAT (etc.)
prep books are also quite instructional. The student/kid looks at the
question and attempts to answer it with his current skills and
knowledge. Then he checks the "text book" answer. If they are the
same, he moves on. Otherwise he continues his "education."
In regard to math, memorization of definitions and basic assumptions is
an important part of math. Understanding that there are several sets
of definitions and even "minimal" definitions is an important part of
real progress in math. A good text can make this point. If a
particular text doesn't a good job of this then a good teacher or
knowledgeable parent or friend can.
Life being what it is, you aren't going to find folks who are
mathematician material teaching in the public schools. My personal
advice for home schools (including "un-educators") is to provide a math
text book rich environment and to occasionally "test" you little
darling. For a small fee (or no fee in some cases) your kid can take a
placement test at a community college. If he does "gud enuf" he can
take "real" college courses at the community college. He he works hard
at community college (and, thus, gets good grades) he can transfer his
credits 1 for 1 to a 4 year "real" college.
But "text book" knowledge of math has never hurt anyone. Folks like
Einstein taught themselves (with TEXTBOOKS) much of the math they used
for their very creative life work.
IMO, someone who just doesn't "get" algebra is not well rounded
regardless of how well they can write or how much they know and can
demonstrate in the arts or history. (Obviously, they can't do much in
"science.")
Someone who doesn't have a math understanding at the level of the first
semester of Calculus will end up treating much of the real world as a
complete mystery.
I am quite happy for the 10th grade student who has figured this out.
I have no problem with him taking the personal decision that we knows
the amount of math he wants to know. But he should know what he
doesn't know.
Do the quotation marks mean she was not really being home schooled?
-=-Some of my kids' present teachers do what many of my "back then"
teachers did...--=-
Does this mean your kids are in school?
-=-In regard to math, memorization of definitions and basic
assumptions is
an important part of math. Understanding that there are several sets
of definitions and even "minimal" definitions is an important part of
real progress in math. -=-
Learning and understanding is much better than memorization of
definitions.
-=-k rich environment and to occasionally "test" you little
darling. For a small fee (or no fee in some cases) your kid can take a
placement test at a community college. If he does "gud enuf" he can
take "real" college courses at the community college. -=-
This is quite tacky, y'know. If you think textbooks are as good as
natural learning, it seems you should consider ANY college classes
"real."
-=-But "text book" knowledge of math has never hurt anyone. -=-
Text books don't guarantee knowledge. Attempts to drag people
through textbook learning has hurt MANY people, both draggers and
dragees.
-=-IMO, someone who just doesn't "get" algebra is not well rounded
regardless of how well they can write or how much they know and can
demonstrate in the arts or history. (Obviously, they can't do much in
"science.")-=-
If you're not an unschooling parent, then your opinion isn't very
valuable in a discussion of unschooling. Writing, arts, history,
science, math.... that's a school-pattern for what might make
someone well rounded. One place to go to help shed yourself of that
limited curriculum is to try to see all the intelligences that school
ignores or puts on the periphery.
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
And once any intelligence is looked at, the areas on which it touches
and the topics to which it connects are limitless.
-=-Someone who doesn't have a math understanding at the level of the
first
semester of Calculus will end up treating much of the real world as a
complete mystery.-=-
Not if he's a musician. Not if he's an artist. Those who don't
understand art and music might seem (from the point of view of an
artist or musician) to be treating much of the world as a complete
mystery. As someone who had abilities school considered daydreaming
and talking too much, I think those without much interpersonal and
intrapersonal intelligence MUST see the world of human beings as a
complete mystery. But that's okay, because the world, too, is vast
and limitless. There are things for everyone to know and do.
-=-I am quite happy for the 10th grade student who has figured this out.
I have no problem with him taking the personal decision that we knows
the amount of math he wants to know. But he should know what he
doesn't know.-=-
Not very clear.
There are a badillion people who would be "quite happy" and "have no
problem" if all our kids went back to school right now today. That's
not what this list is about, though.
-=- But he should know what he doesn't know.-=-
Interestingly ambiguous statement.
You should know what you don't know about unschooling.
Maybe read about half of either of these:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
Sandra
Robin B.
My kids don't hear "no" very often either. I have explained to my daughter this is something dad feels strongly about. But she still asks me repeatedly. She wants me to convince him to say yes.
When she was younger (9?10?) and wanted her ears pierced she did.
-=- Have you talked to him about it much?-=-
Intensely the other morning--enough to know he has no softness about
the idea.
-=-Aside from the legal question, do you personally feel like this is
something for which she should need your permission?-=-
How can that be aside from the legal question?
Sandra
> -=-Some of my kids' present teachers do what many of my "back then"
> teachers did...--=-
>
> Does this mean your kids are in school?
>
Yes.
> -=-In regard to math, memorization of definitions and basic
> assumptions is
> an important part of math. Understanding that there are several sets
> of definitions and even "minimal" definitions is an important part of
> real progress in math. -=-
>
> Learning and understanding is much better than memorization of
> definitions.
>
Like it or not, definitions are VERY important in mathematics. I agree
that "understanding" helps make the memorization process easier but to
progress in math you have to be able to re-create "tight" definitions of
math terms.
> -=-k rich environment and to occasionally "test" you little
> darling. For a small fee (or no fee in some cases) your kid can take a
> placement test at a community college. If he does "gud enuf" he can
> take "real" college courses at the community college. -=-
>
> This is quite tacky, y'know. If you think textbooks are as good as
> natural learning, it seems you should consider ANY college classes
> "real."
>
Actually, even in 4 year colleges, many of the courses many freshmen and
some sophomores take are just high school stuff. That's why I
distinguish between "real" college courses and high school courses that
are also offered in college.
But you knew that, didn't you.
> -=-But "text book" knowledge of math has never hurt anyone. -=-
>
> Text books don't guarantee knowledge. Attempts to drag people
> through textbook learning has hurt MANY people, both draggers and
> dragees.
>
I don't recall ANYONE suggest that any kids be "dragged" through
textbook learning. I did suggest that a bright kid might enjoy
teaching himself at his own pace just by using textbooks.
> -=-IMO, someone who just doesn't "get" algebra is not well rounded
> regardless of how well they can write or how much they know and can
> demonstrate in the arts or history. (Obviously, they can't do much in
> "science.")-=-
>
> If you're not an unschooling parent, then your opinion isn't very
> valuable in a discussion of unschooling. Writing, arts, history,
> science, math.... that's a school-pattern for what might make
> someone well rounded. One place to go to help shed yourself of that
> limited curriculum is to try to see all the intelligences that school
> ignores or puts on the periphery.
>
Yeah, yeah.
What are we talking about here? If anything, the schools concern
themselves with TOO MUCH of the student rather than the 4-Rs.
> http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
> And once any intelligence is looked at, the areas on which it touches
> and the topics to which it connects are limitless.
>
> -=-Someone who doesn't have a math understanding at the level of the
> first
> semester of Calculus will end up treating much of the real world as a
> complete mystery.-=-
>
> Not if he's a musician. Not if he's an artist.
Perhaps. But do you know that there is a good correlation between
music ability and mathematical ability? During WWII many of the most
effect "code breakers" has a music background. Seems to me that if
someone show the potential to be a good musician you do him a disservice
if you don't at least expose him to the world of mathematics. At the
least, he will understand the instruments he plays a little better.
Yes, I knew that. My husband has always been very involved in music
and he's an engineer. Pam Sorooshian, one of the owners of this
list, plays cello, and is a math professor. I'm a musician, I read
music better than my husband does, and although I know the math and
physics involved in scales, chords, octaves, etc., it doesn't help or
matter to know the notation involved in them. I know bigger
recorders have lower tones, and I know how to tune a note on a
recorder by shading a lower hole if the note is sharp, and by
pinching the embouchure and changing the angle of the windflow to
sharpen a note. A vague understanding and the ability to DO it is
worth much more than a bunch of memorized explanations without the
ability to make music. I've done vocal music my whole life, and math
helps zip with that.
-=-Yeah, yeah.
-=-What are we talking about here?-=-
Unschooling. We're talking about how unschooling works and how it
can work better.
"The purpose of this list is to move out of our own comfort zones as
we critically examine our beliefs, ideas, and viewpoints about
learning, and seek a deeper understanding of unschooling and more
respectful relationships with our children."
http://groups.google.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion
Sandra
<<<Like it or not, definitions are VERY important in mathematics. I agree
that "understanding" helps make the memorization process easier but to
progress in math you have to be able to re-create "tight" definitions of
math terms. >>>
Like it or not, definitions are VERY important in mathematics. I agree
that "understanding" helps make the memorization process easier but to
progress in math you have to be able to re-create "tight" definitions of
math terms.
I don't recall ANYONE suggest that any kids be "dragged" throughtextbook learning. I did suggest that a bright kid might enjoyteaching himself at his own pace just by using textbooks.
Seems to me that ifsomeone show the potential to be a good musician you do him a disserviceif you don't at least expose him to the world of mathematics.
> At the same time, I do care about my daughter feelings on the
> issue. I'm not sure how to respond to her when she asks me again
> and again (without any new ideas) about something that I know he
> hasn't changed his mind about.
Maybe turn it around. Tell her than though you could sign the form,
you don't want to damage your relationship with him. It would hurt
him if you disregarded his feelings on the matter.
Tell her you do understand that she feels his disregarding her
feelings, but it's something he feels strongly about. And talk about
the ways he does show his love to everyone and that if she pushes
this one issue, it could affect that. Not because he would love her
less but the action might feel to him like she loves him less because
the no piercing thing is something important to him.
Of course that only makes sense if he isn't saying no a lot.
Joyce
My son announced that he wants to obtain formal high
school standing by writing the equivalency tests and he feels that he
would not be able to pass the Math test without some further study
from a book.
Mrs. Mouse wrote:
>>My son announced that he wants to obtain formal high
school standing by writing the equivalency tests and he feels that he
would not be able to pass the Math test without some further study
from a book.<<
>>Rather than coming to unschoolers with help on implementing a solution, it's better to come with the underlying problem. That way more creative solutions can be offered. Finding the "right' Saxon text isn't nearly as useful to unschoolers as a variety of ways for learning math -- or in this case passing a test.<<
==I'm curious, how much has your daughter talked to her dad about the piercing issue? Have you talked to him about it much?==More than once, but I don't see a point to bringing it up again unless there is new information. I don't agree 100% with his view on piercing, but they are *our* kids. I see it as a choose-your-battles thing. There are other issues I consider more important and so have put more energy into discussing with him.
At the same time, I do care about my daughter feelings on the issue. I'm not sure how to respond to her when she asks me again and again (without any new ideas) about something that I know he hasn't changed his mind about.
==Aside from the legal question, do you personally feel like this is something for which she should need your permission?==I haven't found any laws against it. [If anyone can point me to links to such laws in WA state, please email me off-list nelle...@charter.net.] The local piercing salons will not pierce minors (even ears) without a parent/guardian signature (it only takes one, not both). I could sign without his consent, but that does not seem right.
-=-Aside from the legal question, do you personally feel like this is
something for which she should need your permission?-=-
How can that be aside from the legal question?
To give a somewhat strained thought experiment: suppose a library system required parental consent to get a library card until you were 18.
but I often feel like my personal convictions about moral actions do not coincide particularly well with the particular set of laws or rules which exist.
Kirby tested into the middle of the five remedial levels, with no
preparation at all. He got the highest grade in the class on the
final test.
One of Pam Sorooshian's daughters just started at the lowest remedial
and took each one, as her formal math education.
If Kirby had "crammed" so that he had tested into a higher level, he
could easily have gotten into a class that was beyond his knowledge,
and ended up feeling that math was too hard.
Kirby went in not knowing the notation for math at all. He was great
in his head and in practical uses, but one thing he learned "on the
job" was the notation for a formula. It wasn't ALL news, because
he's used calculators and computer games that had "math problems"
sometimes as ways to get to other levels, but what helped him most
was his everyday knowledge of percentages and relationships and
language. He's clear and logical and wasn't afraid of school, texts
or tests.
Sandra
Mostly because the fact that some people don't think about that
enough, I have pages on divorce and spouses. Some people will come
here and say "I'm unschooling but my husband doesn't know," or "I
want to unschool and my husband doesn't, so how can I make him
agree?" or things to that effect. In my mind I replace "unschool"
with "yacht."
"I bought a yacht, but my husband doesn't know."
"I want a yacht and my husband doesn't, so how can I make him agree?"
Put that way, it seems clear, and funny.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
The relationship between the parents is not something they can put
off until after the kids are gone.
Sandra
**Dagny has had her ears (lobes and cartilage) and nose pierced, and has
done a bit of gauging. Piercing is a pretty major interest for her.
She was 15 when she got her nose ring, so Jon (who went with her) did
have to sign some paperwork. For us it was a meaningless exercise. Jon
and I don't give or withhold permission when our kids make choices.
Sure, legally we have the right to do so. Legally we have the right to
curtail our kids' freedom in lots of ways. Our family has chosen a
different way to live in relationship with each other. The four of us
have an understanding that Jon and I will not ever pull what we call the
parenting trump card.
That wouldn't be possible if Jon and I weren't on the same page as far
as our core beliefs, even while our individual comfort levels are very
different.
So far when one of our kids has stepped over what I think of as the Pat
Farenga line <g> ("When pressed, I define unschooling as allowing
children as much freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can
comfortably bear."), when they've wanted more freedom to learn in the
world than one or both of us parents could comfortably bear - and I
wouldn't say the nose piercing was one of those times for us, but we
have had some - we've been able to kind of carry each other through it
and re-ground each other in what we believe. And looking back I'd say
every time we've stepped out of our comfort zone to help our kids do
something they've decided they want to do the trust and respect between
us all has grown enormously.
~Rue
> He has always unschooled math, living and playing, designing with
> Lego's and K'Nex and is confident in his understanding of math
> concepts. But to pass the test he is currently using Math.com for
> practice.
I suspect he's stressing himself well beyond what the test or class
will do.
I glanced at the site and it's just the same horrid explanations and
problems I did in school 45 years ago that gave me Cs in math. (Later
in school when there was less focus on the pesky numbers and I got to
do the fun stuff like algebra and geometry, I got As.) They aren't
exercises for learning but exercises to prevent kids from using
misleading tricks to get the answer. But in the process,
understanding gets lost in the details.
If someone understands how to do questions like:
300 - 20 =
210 - 20 =
They understand subtraction.
If someone can do:
300 - -20 =
-300 - 20 =
and others like that, they understand the concept of signs.
Doing problems like:
-987 - -654 =
doesn't demonstrate any greater understanding. It's an exercise in
tedium. It's set up so that someone is likely to lose track of a
number along the way out of the boredom, get the wrong answer and
come to the conclusion they don't get math.
I've got a sneaking suspicion that in the back of his head he is
assuming anything that is as tediously difficult as the questions on
that site must be good for him. That the more one suffers, the
better. But it isn't true.
Has he seen the Standard Deviant DVDs?
But he should just take the test and see how he does. Then if he
doesn't pass he'll have a better idea what to focus on.
> Long division frustrates him and he questions the real world
> application of the process.
He *should* question it. Even when I worked as an engineer I didn't
do long division. He should be using a calculator. I suspect the only
ones doing long division anymore are kids and math teachers.
Seeing why long division works is cool. But doing hundreds of long
problems doesn't create understanding. I did them. I really didn't
get the concept until after college when I had the freedom to see it
for what it was without the pressure to make the process give me the
answer the teacher wanted.
Joyce
Is he hoping to have it published in the future?
How would he feel about making it available on something like a
website, something like mine?
Sandra
That seems to be good information for parents to have, and I had also
thought that maybe the principle would extend to unschoolers and
school-committed families. Unschoolers seem to attract favorable
responses from other unschoolers, and be viewed as untrustworthy by
school families.
Sandra
Most of it is about cooperation rather than perceived attractiveness. We had people play the prisoner's dilemma cooperation game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma. People were approached to play the game on a computer, with the other player's photo shown on the screen. What we found was strong cooperation when a person with multiple piercings played the game with someone pictured with multiple facial piercings. Non-pierced people were more likely to defect in the game when the other person had multiple piercings. The results are not really very surprising, suggesting that those with piercings will attract favorable, cooperative responses from others with piercings, and will be viewed as not trustworthy by the unpierced.
This won't wash where algebra & more advanced geometry
("measuring the earth") are concerned, tho, unless the children are
geniuses who see & understand it all instinctively.
If you only see math as the notation of math, then that makes sense.
If you've been spending these unschooling years learning (yourself
learning) to see where math is in the real world and how to think and
understand things in a more mathematical way in the absence of
mathematical notation, then it doesn't make the same sense.
It's unlikely that someone will learn musical notation without
someone else helping them, but I know two people who learned it with
very little help.
If you can see where music is and how a person can be musical and
understand a great many things about music without knowing how to
read music, that will help with seeing mathematics differently.
If you think that learning to read music makes one musical or causes
them to understand music instinctively, then you're on the wrong
track concerning natural learning.
Pressing people to do/memorize/"teach themselves" notation when they
don't have a clue what it is they're "notating" can prevent them from
EVER understanding it at all.
Sandra
his won't wash where algebra & more advanced geometry
("measuring the earth") are concerned, tho, unless the children are
geniuses who see & understand it all instinctively.
~ ~ ~
I scored 760 on the math portion of my SAT's twenty five years ago
(bragging!) and I understand math pretty instinctively but at forty
two years old, I have not yet had any urges (or need) to measure the
earth and would be clueless as to how one would do that. If one of my
kids decides that they want to measure the earth, I'll help them find
out how though, after I ask them why. Its all good!
Peace,
Robin in FL, mom to several math geniuses.
I liked geometry until they got to solids and I got confused. I use
plane geometry for things that aren't really planes--for sewing.
I've made lots of clothes without patterns (and lots WITH, lest
anyone here think I don't really know how to sew "the right way").
Sewing with patterns is "the right way" if I want to work in a factory.
For making clothes and costumes and bags to hold big wooden games
Keith has made, and to design tents from pictures on tapestries or
manuscripts... that has taken some geometrical thinking, but not much
in the way of a formula. It helps to know angles, but unlike the
diagrams in the books, I need seam allowances. Point A to point B
needs at least half an inch of "overage," and more if you're doing a
felled seam. I don't know how THAT would be shown mathematically--a
seam that closes over on itself so that either side is solid and
"finished." I sure know how to do it, even though I couldn't write a
mathematical model of it. If I were a buyer of denim for Levi
Strauss, I guess I might have more need to know. Probably not, even
then.
When one is going to gather or pleat, there can be a need to know how
much material will be needed, but even then the deal with home sewing
is you get extra, you mark the points where the seams will be, and
you gather or pleat the material between them. I've done cartridge
pleating for a REALLY full back skirt for a Renaissance costume, and
that's also a matter of taking as much cloth as you want to use (and
the measurement is not crucial) and gathering it up so that the top
is 18" or whatever, and the bottom is several feet.
I made a tent once and the angle of the roof and the height were
determined by the amount of cloth I had. That was all rectangles and
triangles. It helped to know, when making a four-sided pyramidish
thing that taking a side panel sized piece and cutting it diagonally
and turning them both with the little corner up would make corners
for the structure. And for the door? I made two side panels. So I
had five side panels, four corners, and four triangles to make the
roof, but while the corners needed right triangles, the roof needed
those symmetrical triangles (isosceles, but if I hadn't know the word
I could still have made them). And with cloth, to make four of
those, there are several ways to cut the cloth, depending on the
height you want. With cloth there are limitations you don't have
with theoretical triangles in limitless space. If you had an
unlimited length of cloth, you could cut four whole triangles, but
it's kinda wasteful. You can cut two, and then piece the other two
triangles from what's left over.
E-mail could use giving us the ability to sketch.
If that seems overwhelming to read, let me point out that I could
show you these things in their physical form. What I did had an
immediate practical application. It was mathematical, but I did it
in English. I used a yardstick and a piece of chalk, not numbers on
paper.
I designed and made the frame for that tent, too, with a rattan pole,
some 1x4 lumber, rope, four blocks of wood for tensioners, four bolts
with wingnuts and four string loops. Four tent takes. And there was
"the egyptian way" to find where to put the tent stakes before the
tent went up, because if two of the pieces of the wood frame that
hung where the roof met the sides were sit in an L from the center
point, and then turned every direction, they touched the place where
the corner stake should be, because the proportion of the roof edge
to the ground was twice (or four or eight or whatever--it didn't
matter if I even knew), and two poles....
(I'll ask Keith to explain this. I use English and he uses numbers.)
My point is that there are ways to use geometry without it being
written down and there are ways to write it down without having the
faintest clue what it might be actually used for in a real life
situation.
Sandra
>> I designed and made the frame for that tent, too, with a rattan pole,
>> some 1x4 lumber, rope, four blocks of wood for tensioners, four bolts
>> with wingnuts and four string loops. Four tent takes. And there was
>> "the egyptian way" to find where to put the tent stakes before the
>> tent went up, because if two of the pieces of the wood frame that
>> hung where the roof met the sides were sit in an L from the center
>> point, and then turned every direction, they touched the place where
>> the corner stake should be, because the proportion of the roof edge
>> to the ground was twice (or four or eight or whatever--it didn't
>> matter if I even knew), and two poles....
>> (I'll ask Keith to explain this. I use English and he uses numbers.)
Because the cloth width (A) determined the width of the 2 side
rectangles
and the base of the corners triangles, the length of the base of the
pyramid
(4A) was twice the length of the ridge line (2A). So the ridge poles
could
be used (in a right angle fashion) to measure the distance from the
center
point (where the pole stood) to where the stake needed to be , thus
defining
a square on the ground, symmetrical around the center point.
>> My point is that there are ways to use geometry without it being
>> written down and there are ways to write it down without having the
>> faintest clue what it might be actually used for in a real life
>> situation.
Everything described here can be modeled with abstract equations, or
paper.
It is fortunate that one need not fully understand the intricacies of
geometry before attempting origami.
Keith
I do tend to think, tho, that like lots of things, some people are
more intrinsically "mathematical" in their thinking right from birth,
than other people.
I do tend to think, tho, that like lots of things, some people aremore intrinsically "mathematical" in their thinking right from birth,than other people.
Ive had it all pierced…some scar more than others.
I advise against any home piercing…do some research with the children and seek out the best, even if there is travel involved, it is well worth the wait to get the job done right.
My first “body” piercing was done with a gun (advise against that too) at Lalapalooza of all places!!!
I did have some trouble with infection on that one, but I don’t think it had to do with the place/person who did it and like Schuyler, I just have a small barely noticeable hole…nostril.
Many years later, I got a septum piercing from one of the best in the country. I have not worn jewelry there in at least 5 years, and I still have some trouble with the scar from time to time. Not sure why.
I think lots of teens see piercing as quick and easy like a haircut – and it can be – but I feel that it is something that could require follow up care and can leave permanent mark…sometimes more unsightly than a bad tattoo, so it should be taken very seriously. I am all for piercing whatever ya got, but I know now that it is a bigger deal than I thought it was as a teen/20 something.
My almost 8 yo has been looking at videos on you tube on the subject – lots to see that’s for sure. He isn’t interested in doing anything now, but has been intrigued and amazed. Just a way to learn more.
Good luck.
Geneva in Dallas
From:
Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Schuyler
Waynforth
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 3:03 AM
To: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Piercings
I pierced my nose with a safety
pin when I was 19. It took a bit of deep breathing. I wouldn't recommend that
approach. It didn't get infected, it wasn't a problem, and when I was done with
it, when the babies I was babysitting were too interested in playing with my
nose ring, I took it out. I still have a small hole where the piercing was, it
just looks like a large pore, and you'd have to get really close to notice it.
Schuyler
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 1:36 AM, nellebelle <nelle...@charter.net> wrote:
Looking for feedback on children getting body piercing, specifally naval and nose.
Mary Ellen