Saxon Arithmetic Books.

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Mrs. Mouse

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Dec 31, 2008, 6:00:43 PM12/31/08
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Hi. Out of nowhere, my teenage son has decided he wants to continue
studying arithmetic with the Saxon books. He hasn't done any formal
schoolwork in a few years and now believes he needs some "education",
I guess.

My understanding is that the textbooks have various editions, and the
latest ones are not necessarily the best. Can anyone advise us as to
which editions of roughly Gr. 11 & 12 Saxon arithmetic texts have the
best reputation where self-study is concerned? Many thanks.

Sandra Dodd

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Dec 31, 2008, 6:52:55 PM12/31/08
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-=-My understanding is that the textbooks have various editions, and the

latest ones are not necessarily the best. Can anyone advise us as to
which editions of roughly Gr. 11 & 12 Saxon arithmetic texts have the
best reputation where self-study is concerned? -=-

Have you tried the message boards of those who usually use these
books? You might be able to get some free or cheap, and some
advice. You're asking lots of people who don't use textbooks.

Sandra

Mrs. Mouse

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Dec 31, 2008, 7:45:03 PM12/31/08
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Tks. for your reply and info, but I am surprised that "lots" of people
here don't use textbooks, ever. From our own experiences, a more
relaxed, unschooling approach did not preclude the occasional use of
textbooks as reference. I forgot most of my high school algebra and
never studied calculus and we don't know where else but a used book to
get this info on the cheap. But now my son wants to do things A-B-
C, all formal! Really, I nearly took to my bed...

In any case, you are right, it would be really nice to find some cheap
Saxon books or any other schoolbooks my son decides he wants to own &
study. So I will heed your advice and look for another message
board.

Sandra Dodd

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Dec 31, 2008, 7:52:08 PM12/31/08
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-=-Tks. for your reply and info, but I am surprised that "lots" of
people
here don't use textbooks, ever. From our own experiences, a more
relaxed, unschooling approach did not preclude the occasional use of
textbooks as reference. -=-

You weren't talking about the occasional use of textbooks as reference.

Sandra

Nicole Willoughby

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Dec 31, 2008, 8:02:45 PM12/31/08
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I forgot most of my high school algebra and
never studied calculus and we don't know where else but a used book to
get this info on the cheap. But now my son wants to do things A-B-
C, all formal! Really, I nearly took to my bed...

>>>>

if you google there are lots of different websites on algebra. If he is high school age he may be able to enroll for an in person or online class at a local community college with grant money. You can call friends and check in school dumpsters at the end of the year too :) 
There is also the library which often has textbooks available for check out or try before you buy :)


Nicole

Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum

Dawn Adams

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Dec 31, 2008, 8:25:47 PM12/31/08
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I don't speak up often (as I'm not sure where I am in terms of
unschooling/homeschooling) but if your son wants a great text to work
through there are some fun, inspiring ones out there. Any by Harold Jacobs
(Mathematics; A Human Endeavour) are good. I picked up Mathematical Ideas
(Miller, Heeren, Hornsby) in a thrift store and loved working through it.
It has applications for critical thinking and philosophy as well as math.
Life of Fred (http://www.stanleyschmidt.com/FredGauss/index2.html) is a
series of books from fractions to trig that work through math in a
non-traditional novel format that a kid who hasn't had a lot of textbooks
would probably take to very easily. Singaporemath.com has several texts
for high school and their stuff is generally rigourous but also
enlightening and clever. For Algebra specifically look for the authors
Dolciani and Lial. For geometry I'm told there's nothing like Geometry-A
Guided Inquiry with the home study companion
(http://www.mathwithoutborders.com/Geometry/index.html). I want that one
myself. And there's ALWAYS Euclid!

Uh yeah. I've discovered a real love for a well done textbook. There
aren't many out there but the ones that are out there are slowly finding a
home on my bookshelves. I tend to find them on homeschool email
lists/message boards or in thrift stores. In math texts older editions
generally are better (the Dolciani editions people favour are from the
60's) before they watered down and broken up by subsequent additions to
the subsequent editions. :)

My holy grail is actually Biology by Campbell and Reese. It was a text I
first heard about on an unschooling board and it's supposed to be a real
joy. Haven't found it cheap enough yet though!

There's a lot of unworthy crap out there in the textbook world but there
are also some spectacular gems.

Dawn in NS


On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:45:03 -0400, Mrs. Mouse <oldswis...@gmail.com>
wrote:
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Joyce Fetteroll

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Dec 31, 2008, 9:39:55 PM12/31/08
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On Dec 31, 2008, at 7:45 PM, Mrs. Mouse wrote:

but I am surprised that "lots" of people

here don't use textbooks, ever.


You'd probably get a positive response if the question were if anyone here had a textbook. I bet most people have at least one squirreled away somewhere.

But you've asked for very specialized information about a specific edition of one textbook. If that's what you want, you'd do better to ask on a list where a lot of people are using Saxon like curriculum users or maybe eclectics.

On the other hand, if someone asks for suggestions for kids who are curious about arithmetic unschoolers are bound to come up with a wide variety of ideas that won't be limited to textbooks.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 1, 2009, 6:45:38 AM1/1/09
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-=-if you google there are lots of different websites on algebra. If he is high school age he may be able to enroll for an in person or online class at a local community college with grant money. You can call friends and check in school dumpsters at the end of the year too :) 
There is also the library which often has textbooks available for check out or try before you buy :)-=-

There are videos (cheap) and DVDs (not quite as cheap) by a group called "The Standard Deviants."  There are computer games (or used to be, anyway) like Algebra Blasters.  

Someone could still have a checklist of what he wants to learn, and the parents could still channel him out in many directions instead of funneling him into one.

Sandra

Marjorie Kirk

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Jan 1, 2009, 10:31:48 AM1/1/09
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FYI: "The Standard Deviants"  are available through Netflix.
 
Marjorie


From: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 6:46 AM
To: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Saxon Arithmetic Books.

melidi7

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Jan 1, 2009, 11:26:57 AM1/1/09
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there is a nice math list called "living math"...I peek in there once
and again as I have some olders in school who ask for help that I m
not always able to give--working from italian math texts is sometimes
too much for me.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LivingMathForum/?yguid=286713246

they talk about saxon math all the time over there-
there is a websit e as well:
http://www.livingmath.net/

hope that helps some.
melissa in italy
mamma di 7

Mrs. Mouse

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Jan 1, 2009, 2:51:43 AM1/1/09
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Thank you v. much, all of you, for your suggestions &
recommendations. And a particular tk-you to you, Dawn, for your
detailed & specific suggestions. Happy New Year!

John Gilmer

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Jan 1, 2009, 12:55:25 PM1/1/09
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I really, really hope you are joking.

Most public school (or home educated kids) are well beyond "arithmetic"
in the 11th and 12th grade.

If your kid knows his 3R's, I would suggest that you buy a used algebra
book and see what he can teach himself. That's the "unschooling"
approach. Books published since about 1980 tend to integrate
"scientific calculators" and even graphing calculators with the study.
Older texts don't. There isn't anything particularly "magical" with
the Saxon books. Since they are "in print" even used they will cost a
lot more than something you pick up at a thrift shop. Basically,
whatever you happen to pick up, hand it to your kids and see what he can
make of it.

We routinely pick up old text books when we go to thrift shops or
library fund raising sales.

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 1, 2009, 3:20:03 PM1/1/09
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-=-Most public school (or home educated kids) are well beyond
"arithmetic"
in the 11th and 12th grade.-=-

If the public schooled kids are still taking math at that point they
are. Many places don't have "higher math" requirements in high
school. Algebra, some geometry, maybe.

-=-If your kid knows his 3R's, I would suggest that you buy a used

algebra
book and see what he can teach himself. That's the "unschooling"

approach. -=-

That's one of very many unschooling approaches. It would move a
notch closer to the middle of unschooling if it's thought of in terms
of seeing what he can learn, rather than "what he can teach
himself." I think limiting to one source is one of the worst
mistakes school makes, and we don't need to repeat it.

Sandra

John Gilmer

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Jan 1, 2009, 9:12:16 PM1/1/09
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Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-If your kid knows his 3R's, I would suggest that you buy a used
> algebra
> book and see what he can teach himself. That's the "unschooling"
> approach. -=-
>
> That's one of very many unschooling approaches. It would move a
> notch closer to the middle of unschooling if it's thought of in terms
> of seeing what he can learn, rather than "what he can teach
> himself." I think limiting to one source is one of the worst
> mistakes school makes, and we don't need to repeat it.
>

Well, if you buy a new textbook from wherever you have a real
investment. If you pick up a book at random from a thrift shop or
library sale, you have "invested" about $1. If your kid has trouble
with your $1 textbook, you have the option of telling him to forget it
for the time being until you find another book or two. If you buy a
Saxon test (and course?) you better hope they have a generous return
policy or else your kid will be stuck with a "my way or the highway"
road to learning algebra.

Letting a kid "teach himself" by bouncing among several "texts" is as
close as you can get to un-schooling in mathematics.

Algebra is one of those things which you either learn or you don't learn.


Sandra Dodd

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Jan 1, 2009, 9:22:51 PM1/1/09
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-=-Well, if you buy a new textbook from wherever you have a real
investment. -=-

Or a piece of crap.

-=- If you pick up a book at random from a thrift shop or


library sale, you have "invested" about $1. If your kid has trouble
with your $1 textbook, you have the option of telling him to forget it

for the time being until you find another book or two. -=-

This doesn't sound like advice from an unschooler.

-=- If you buy a


Saxon test (and course?) you better hope they have a generous return
policy or else your kid will be stuck with a "my way or the highway"
road to learning algebra.

-=-

Why would a kid be stuck with anything? Are you thinking a parent
who buys a textbook would make a kid finish it? How does that have
anything to do with unschooling? Do you think a parent who bought a
dozen donuts would make a kid eat them all?

-=-Letting a kid "teach himself" by bouncing among several "texts" is as


close as you can get to un-schooling in mathematics.

-=-

Before I let another of your posts through, how about an introduction
from you? How's unschooling going at your house? I remember you
have a teenager, and you assured us that smoking isn't so harmful.

-=-Algebra is one of those things which you either learn or you don't
learn.-=-

Perhaps you mean that formal algebraic notation is something someone
either knows or doesn't. It's like reading music. There are
musicians who don't read music. There are people who read music who
aren't musicians, and their "reading" is like someone reading
phonetically in a language they hardly understand. There are people
who "learned" algebra who wouldn't be able to discuss it in English.
They did monkey tricks for eighteen weeks and got their food pellets
(report card).

Sandra


Mrs. Mouse

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Jan 1, 2009, 4:58:33 PM1/1/09
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News: my boy just told me last night he felt he had to stick with
Saxon because that is what he was initially presented with years ago -
but he doesn't really want to use that method at all - he found it
boring but never said anything. But he did say that he wants to use
some sort of book to generally go by. Therefore, he looked into the
various books mentioned here by all of you and will decide for
himself. The 'Life of Fred' really caught his eye when he went to
their site. Mamma di 7, I appreciate your info and comments and the
input of all of you.

John Gilmer, thanks for your helpful info. Further, I refer to
"arithmetic" rather than "mathematics" because a friend of mine, a
real 'egghead' , told me that what you take in high school is not
"mathematics" by a long shot, that it is merely arithmetic. He said
it isn't really mathematics until university. I just took his word
for it. Further, he found it laughable that in the past few decades,
even the elementary school teaching of numbers is called "math". For
what it is worth, I personally don't care what anyone else calls it.
Heck, I even looked it up, as follows:

"Arithmetic or arithmetics (from the Greek word αριθμός = number) is
the oldest and most elementary branch of mathematics, used by almost
everyone, for tasks ranging from simple day-to-day counting to
advanced science and business calculations."

"Mathematics" includes arithmetic, algebra, geometry, trigonometry,
and calculus.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic

Dawn Adams

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Jan 2, 2009, 8:02:58 AM1/2/09
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Just one more note. If he has a specific interest in Algebra then the
Singaporemath.com site has some Grade 5-6 Word Problem workbooks that use
a method called bar modeling for solving the problems rather then the
traditional unknown as x kind of thing. It's intuitive and much easier to
visualize. Heck, if you google "bar model" and "word problems" you'll
probably find some info online. But the Singapore word problem books are
very clear and have worked problems if you'd like something to stick on
your shelves for fun (I've certainly sat down with our copies to work
through some problems). Despite the fact that I'm talking about upper
elementry books they actually rival what's being asked of junior high
students in North America. Lots of fun for a math fan kid.

Really, if a kid wanted some workbooks and texts that he/she could have
fun working through then Singapore is perfect for that. The Key to series
by the Miquon math folks if also great. Both are very "alive"if that makes
sense, heavy on conceptual stuff, relatable to real life and come of as
something closer to a puzzle book then some dry and formal math text or
course. They alo focus on mastery whereas Saxon spirals so a kid could dip
in, do something they enjoy or are curious about and then leave. Saxon
demands a commitment and is supposedly boring as all get out.

Dawn

Susan Fuerst

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Jan 2, 2009, 8:35:26 AM1/2/09
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When we got a Life of Fred book a few years back. the author was thrilled to
hear from readers and also to assist with some challenges the reader might
face. I love the book, but none of my dc have gotten into it, that I know
about.

Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mrs. Mouse
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 4:59 PM
To: UnschoolingDiscussion
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Saxon Arithmetic Books.




nellebelle

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Jan 3, 2009, 8:36:14 PM1/3/09
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Looking for feedback on children getting body piercing, specifally naval and nose.
 
Mary Ellen
 

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 3, 2009, 11:01:56 PM1/3/09
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-=-Looking for feedback on children getting body piercing, specifally naval and nose.-=-

There are probably local laws to consider.  There might be ages at which it's illegal even with parental permission.

Holly considers a pierced lip.  She's 17.  I told her to wait until she's 18, because her dad really doesn't like even pierced ears.  She's fine with waiting.

Sandra

nellebelle

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Jan 4, 2009, 1:30:32 AM1/4/09
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==There are probably local laws to consider.  There might be ages at which it's illegal even with parental permission.==
 
I can't find any laws against it, but the reputable places won't pierce under age 18 without parental signature, even for ears. They will do naval/facial/tongue piercings for age 16+ (with parental signature). We're in Washington State.
 
She is 16 now. I suggested she wait until she doesn't need our agreement, but she keeps asking, and asking, and asking ...
 
I'm not opposed, but her dad is and I know others might be (potential employers, for instance). OTH, non-ear piercings are becoming more common. Maybe it isn't that big a deal.
 
Mary Ellen

Nancy Machaj

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Jan 4, 2009, 1:51:10 AM1/4/09
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I am 35 now.
I pierced my nose when I was 19.
I had up to 7 piercings in one ear.
I had my belly button pierced at...? 20?
I had my tongue pierced at 24.

I was actually able to hide the tongue piercing from work for months. But it was a restaurant and when they found out, they asked me to remove it or quit. Tongue piercings start to heal immediately so its not like other piercings that you can remove and replace easily. I did remove it. And later, with a different waitress job in a different city, I got it done again and my job didnt care.

It seems to me the most accepted are nose and "extra" ear piercings. Ive taken my nose piercing in and out for years depending. most of my jobs (some bars/restaurants, offices, even when I was a real estate agent) having a nose piercing wasnt a big deal. 

Belly buttons-work places dont see those.
Other facial piercings are probably less acceptable at most workplaces-however, they are easily removed, if desired, without permanent reminders. 

FWIW, I also have 3 tattoos (gotten at 19, 24 and 25) and I was always able to be employed, I got married, had kids, am pretty normal :)

My kids are young, but I think I would support them getting pierced, at age 16. I mean, they can always just take it out! 

Nancy

Schuyler Waynforth

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Jan 4, 2009, 4:03:08 AM1/4/09
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I pierced my nose with a safety pin when I was 19. It took a bit of deep breathing. I wouldn't recommend that approach. It didn't get infected, it wasn't a problem, and when I was done with it, when the babies I was babysitting were too interested in playing with my nose ring, I took it out. I still have a small hole where the piercing was, it just looks like a large pore, and you'd have to get really close to notice it.

Schuyler

Jenny

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Jan 4, 2009, 4:44:09 AM1/4/09
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> Tks. for your reply and info, but I am surprised that "lots" of people
> here don't use textbooks, ever.   From our own experiences, a more
> relaxed, unschooling approach did not preclude the occasional use of
> textbooks as reference.

I actually have several textbooks on bookshelf right behind me in our
living room. I hardly ever look at them or reference them. The
internet is a far superior source of information than an old boring
textbook! Well, not all of them are boring, but my internet savvy
teen would certainly find them so.

>But now my son wants to do things A-B-
> C, all formal!  Really, I nearly took to my bed...

What exactly does your son want to get out of a math textbook? I know
sometimes unschooling teens start thinking about wether or not they
want to go to college and wonder about test taking and math is a big
one for test taking. Or maybe your son is really interested in math,
like some kids are really interested in art or music. If that's the
case, giving him a math textbook, would be akin to a paint by number
coloring book with craft brushes to learn about painting.


> In any case, you are right, it would be really nice to find some cheap
> Saxon books or any other schoolbooks my son decides he wants to own &
> study.  

Math is interesting and fun and there are so many better ways to
explore it and learn it. I hear about all kinds of textbooks on our
local homeschooling board and what always gets me, is the hoop jumping
and grade level and such. How does a textbook really represent
mathematics? Sure, you can copy formulas and memorize them, but it's
still someone else's idea of what math is and in what order it should
be studied and memorized. The textbooks put you through a linear
process of math that you can be tested on or not. That isn't math!
Math isn't linear!

In fact, I feel so strongly about that, that I would discourage
textbooks at all cost as the sole source of learning math. If I had a
child that was really interested in math, textbooks would be a really
small part of our math life. I would encourage you to explore more
and offer something better!

mysti...@frontiernet.net

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Jan 4, 2009, 10:10:41 AM1/4/09
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Do you have any specific questions? My daughter (15) has multiple piercing in her ear (including an industrial) and her nose is pierced. I am happy to give permission for piercings that are non-sexual, LOL. So tongue and belly buttons won't happen for a few more years.
Elissa

Chef Lis
Personal Chef Services and Catering
(240) 601-1751
WriteC...@aol.com

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 4, 2009, 11:03:08 AM1/4/09
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I wouldn't mind Holly getting her lip pierced, but Keith, her dad, my
husband, is adamantly against it. Even if I could sign alone (I
don't know if one parent's signature is enough), I wouldn't. I've
never signed anything Keith didn't agree to, and he hasn't done
anything I didn't agree to, in 30 years, and that's part of why I can
say 30 years.

Holly will be 18 in November. Keith says it won't be okay with him
even if she's 35. So she'll take that into consideration. He didn't
want her to get her ears pierced, but she did, and took good care of
them. Then later she pierced her own ear a couple of times. He
seemed fine about it, except to remind her he thinks it's stupid.

My argument for letting her is that she takes really good care of
herself. She took excellent care of her braces--I never reminded or
pressured her, she just did it (so did Marty). She was at the
dentist last week and he said he wished all his patients' teeth were
taken care of as hers are. Blah blah... to say she's clean and
conscientious.

Keith's arguments are at a visceral level, though, and not really in
the realm of clear logic. I would wear earrings more often if Keith
hadn't told me he didn't like them. I like Keith. He takes really
good care of us.

So there. Other considerations.

Sandra

nellebelle

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Jan 4, 2009, 12:33:10 PM1/4/09
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Thanks for sharing thoughts on this.
 
The main reason I haven't agreed to sign for it is dh's reluctance. He feels strongly about piercings. I've been more observant of them in the past year or so and am not bothered by a small nose stud. Those things that make big holes in people's earlobes give me the heebie jeebies!
 
I like the idea of the decision being hers 100%; however, I've already agreed to double lobe and an ear cartilidge piercings, so this reason feels a bit hypocritical to me.
 
Mary Ellen

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 4, 2009, 1:20:05 PM1/4/09
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Even when parents decide to forego their rights and the things the
greater culture expects them to do in favor of giving their children
tons of options, that's not a contract to forego ALL of their
rights. To never say "no" is as unbalanced as always saying no.

Our kids hear "no" so infrequently that it really means something
when we say it. It's very rare. We're only ten months from having
no legal say, everyone's getting along well, things are peaceful and
happy, and Holly can wait more easily than I can risk making Keith
feel totally unregarded. That's not worth doing.

Sandra

Jenny

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Jan 4, 2009, 5:23:37 PM1/4/09
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So, you're asking about textbooks, but I'll give you this to chew
on... Perhaps it will help you and your son rethink using a textbook
for math.

http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf

Jenny

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Jan 4, 2009, 5:53:53 PM1/4/09
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And here's the big biggy...
The largest critique of Saxon math is this...

quoted from wikipedia; "...the method is overly rigid, lacks
creativity for both teachers and students, and reduces mathematics to
strictly simplistic procedures applied by rote. It focuses on
algorithms which can be applied mindlessly in a "plug and chug" or
"turn the crank" approach. Some students complain that Saxon does not
foster hands-on learning experiences or that the constant review is
boring. Success with the Saxon program may depend in part on the
learning style of the individual student."

Since we are talking about this in the context of unschooling, I'll
say this, our motivation matters, why we do things matters. I would
even go so far as to wonder why an unschooled kid of any age would be
looking to math textbooks for answers to knowing math, unless of
course they want to prep for a test of some sort. Perhaps, a teen may
wonder suddenly why what they know doesn't compare to what a schooled
kid knows. If the parent's answer is to offer a textbook, or if the
kid jumps to the conclusion that a textbook is necessary, there seems
to be something in the bigger picture that is missing in the
unschooling life.

That's not to say that people never use textbooks, or that textbooks
are something to be reviled. Textbooks are what they are, they
compile incremental information for the masses of the school system so
that people can pass tests and move on to the next level of textbook.
In that compilation there is surely some useful information. I also
doubt very much that an unschooled kid would use a textbook in the
manner in which it was intended, and for that reason alone, other
sources may be a much better option for delving into any particular
"school" subject matter.

So, Saxon math would seem to be one of the very worst choices for an
unschooled kid to delve into, to learn math.

nellebelle

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Jan 5, 2009, 1:02:26 AM1/5/09
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==Our kids hear "no" so infrequently that it really  means something 
when we say it.  It's very rare.  We're only ten months from having 
no legal say, everyone's getting along well, things are peaceful and 
happy, and Holly can wait more easily than I can risk making Keith 
feel totally unregarded.  That's not worth doing.==
 
My kids don't hear "no" very often either. I have explained to my daughter this is something dad feels strongly about. But she still asks me repeatedly. She wants me to convince him to say yes.
 
Did Holly just say, okay and let it drop? What if she hadn't?
 
We have less than 23 months until she doesn't need our permission. It will pass.
 
Mary Ellen

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 5, 2009, 1:12:37 AM1/5/09
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-=-Did Holly just say, okay and let it drop? What if she hadn't?-=-

She did.  She said something like "He pays for my cellphone and gasoline and let's me drive his car, so I can wait."   

I'm really glad she's not sneaky and she's honest and helpful and all.  If she really pressed, I think Keith would say "whatever" (in a "don't include me in this discussion" way) and if I could sign on my own I would, but I'm  hoping it doesn't come to that.  I think she'll be fine. 

She's brought it up three times in the past six months or so, so at first she was 16.

If it were just me, I'd let her do it.

Sandra

Mrs. Mouse

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Jan 4, 2009, 7:29:00 PM1/4/09
to UnschoolingDiscussion

>
> What exactly does your son want to get out of a math textbook? I know
> sometimes unschooling teens start thinking about wether or not they
> want to go to college and wonder about test taking and math is a big
> one for test taking. Or maybe your son is really interested in math,
> like some kids are really interested in art or music. If that's the
> case, giving him a math textbook, would be akin to a paint by number
> coloring book with craft brushes to learn about painting.
>
>
Hi, Jenny. My son announced that he wants to obtain formal high
school standing by writing the equivalency tests and he feels that he
would not be able to pass the Math test without some further study
from a book. He never, or almost never, used a calculator for
anything for years & years; and uses some math in his daily life. He
is at about the grade 10 level. He admits that he doesn't really like
the Saxon method because it is "boring" but he does not think he is
going to learn algebra or trig just by osmosis, as he has learned so
many other things.

Thanks for your comments & interest in helping us!

nellebelle

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Jan 5, 2009, 11:05:36 AM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
==My son announced that he wants to obtain formal high

school standing by writing the equivalency tests and he feels that he
would not be able to pass the Math test without some further study
from a book.==
 
Our library has a number of books for a variety of tests: GED, SAT, etc. (Or these could be purchased at a bookstore.) Why not just do a practice test to see which things one actually needs to learn?
 
Mary Ellen

Willa Ryan

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Jan 5, 2009, 11:08:39 AM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
>>> I would
even go so far as to wonder why an unschooled kid of any age would be
looking to math textbooks for answers to knowing math, unless of
course they want to prep for a test of some sort.>>>

I can remember as a teen copying out large parts of a history encyclopedia just because I was interested and wanted to give myself a mental big picture of history.  I did this rather than homework.   I also remember my mom buying math workbooks in the summer and just handing them over, no obligation, when I was in grade school.  I thought they were sort of fun and usually did at least a few pages just as you might do a word search or Sudoku.    I COULD imagine an unschooled child being interested in a math textbook to see what he knew or to brush up on things he didn't know well.    Textbooks are convenient and mentally accessible in some ways... but I do think Saxon's approach is too scattered to fit the bill much for an overview or brush-up.   I would go for a more topical and less top-down approach.

I wonder if SAT prep books, the kind with tutorials, would fill the same sort of interest or need.   

Willa

Schuyler Waynforth

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Jan 5, 2009, 12:53:16 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
I think the problem is for any child, unschooled or not, to see The Way to learning about any subject through studying from a textbook. I have textbooks scattered among our books. Sometimes they are the books best suited to answer a question, or to wander through a field of study. It is getting rarer that I ever turn to a textbook though. I am much more likely to reach for a keyboard to answer a query. The links that bring me from one thought to another in this falling and catching myself distractedly interested sort of way that really work for how I explore are so much more appealling than skimming an index in the hopes of finding the one (and only) thing I was looking for.

I understand the desire to move from limited or unrecognized knowledge about a subject through to the end of a book and a clearly stated (by the author) understanding of the subject, sometimes even with some sort of certificate of completion that you can fill in with your name, an awarded (if useless) badge of knowledge. The problem is that the knowledge is limited to what's in the book. It is limited to the ability, or lack thereof, of the writer to be clear and to impart knowledge of three dimensional and four dimensional ideas in a two dimensional format. All the depth and breadth of the ideas are limited to the framework of the author's remit handed on by the publisher.

However, because the stated goal of the math knowledge is a test, I would completely aim to pass the test. I would get GED study books and take the sample tests and figure out what my weaknesses were. Absolutely aim all my efforts at the test. It's the hurdle, it's the goal, not the math.



I have this fantastic set of encyclopedias that were my father-in-laws when he was young. And they are so often wrong, it is absolutely fascinating how knowledge and perspective change all the time. Textbooks in many arenas are out of date very quickly, as are encyclopedias. I would assume that your encyclopedia interest was fueled more by being a schooled child than a child who was interested in the knowledge that copying text could impart. I can remember doing many things in the hope that they would give me the knowledge that I felt I needed to be a good and educated child.

Simon used to copy text, I'd forgotten that. I can remember him using my old typewriter and typing out things from Ranger Rick when he was 5 or 6. He couldn't read at the time. It was an artistic endeavour, maybe. I doubt that any of the things he typed became information that he still retains now, 5 or 6 years later.

Schuyler

Laura Endres

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Jan 5, 2009, 1:15:08 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
>>Our library has a number of books for a variety of tests: GED, SAT, etc. (Or these could be >>purchased at a bookstore.) Why not just do a practice test to see which things one actually >>needs to learn?
 
That's what we did when my son decided to try school and he had to pass an entrance exam (private school).  We bought the Cliffs Version for arithmetic through algebra (there are other versions) and just whipped through it as an overview, passing the things he knew, spending more time on the things he didn't know.  He was worried about math and this worked well for us and only took a couple weeks.  Each section only had 5-10 practice problems so it wasn't drudgery.
 
Laura
 

http://piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com/
*~*~*~*~*~*
"Children aren't coloring
books.  You don't get to fill them
with your favorite colors."
~From The Kite Runner
*~*~*~*~*~*

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 5, 2009, 1:24:13 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
There are also the laminated study guides sold at some bookstores
with subjects summarized in just a few pages (sometimes two).

There are several brands. Here's one:
http://www.barcharts.com/Products/Laminated-Reference?CID=1225

We have several. I've always thought they were fun. You can put
them in the bathroom for people to read in there. Anything on one of
those that someone wanted to know more about could be researched on
the internet or in books around your house or the library.

k

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Jan 5, 2009, 1:48:01 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
>>>>He is at about the grade 10 level.<<<<

This is an arbitrary assessment in the first place.  What grade 10 is in one school system is not the same information or knowledge as grade 10 in another school system.  I found this out many times, as my family moved often, and I ended up placing better in reading skills at some schools and the very next month I placed better for math skills at another school.  I didn't know any more math or reading. 

That might not matter to you to say Grade 10 Math placement.  The way I look at it, saying that might not mean much.

What many seem to believe about math perhaps is that the knowledge of higher math is harder to get and less attainable by one's own unique ways of finding out what they're about.  This belief is itself a result of the early school math school process. 

What some qualitative studies (see Holt in How Children Fail) have found about number knowledge is that it is practically nonexistent for many students .... which makes attaining further number knowledge difficult if not impossible.  The school process encourages memorization of a narrow set of facts within math (like operations ... plus, minus... and conditions/positions such as negative, positive, north, south, east, west), it dissociates the facts from each other, and rather than understanding how number facts work together students work to accumulate the (to their minds) separate facts they'll be tested for. 

Math tests are easier if number facts are understood to be part of a whole association of other number facts and to fit within that world.  In English, once a speaker understands how the word "the" works in the language and where it fits, it's easy to put it wherever it's wanted and even to deviate from normal use in order to make puns and jokes about the word "the."  The same can be done with music, so that once a player understand how the note "C" works (even without knowing the name of the note), it's not confusing to see the note used in so many ways.  Noticing "the" and "C" in greater varieties of situations and uses can make for greater understanding. 

The same goes with calculus ideas and any other higher math.  Look for ways that it's already being used that interest you.  Maybe how calculus is used in astronomy would prove interesting.  When I took a course in statistics, I didn't come out knowing calculus really well but I understand so much more about the uses for calculus than I knew existed, and the calculus concepts are what ended up making the course more interesting to me because ordinarily statistics aren't really my cup of tea.

~Katherine








John Gilmer

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Jan 5, 2009, 1:25:16 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Well, here in Virginia we have the SOL (Standards of Learning) tests.
The tests given in prior years are available on-line.

Just for fun while my older girl was being "home schooled" I had her
take the previous year's SOL test for algebra. She had just finished
4th grade but had "skipped" 2nd grade. While she didn't "ace" it she
did get a passing grade. When she got her hands on an algebra text
book she taught herself algebra. Taking a test is a quick and dirty
way of discovering what is expected of you when you claim to have
completed a subject and a quick way of learning what you don't know.

Some of my kids' present teachers do what many of my "back then"
teachers did: They gave a "final exam" on the first day of class.
Since my older girl is a BIG reader, she actually did quite well on her
World History "final."

Course specific tests have great instruction value. The SAT (etc.)
prep books are also quite instructional. The student/kid looks at the
question and attempts to answer it with his current skills and
knowledge. Then he checks the "text book" answer. If they are the
same, he moves on. Otherwise he continues his "education."

In regard to math, memorization of definitions and basic assumptions is
an important part of math. Understanding that there are several sets
of definitions and even "minimal" definitions is an important part of
real progress in math. A good text can make this point. If a
particular text doesn't a good job of this then a good teacher or
knowledgeable parent or friend can.

Life being what it is, you aren't going to find folks who are
mathematician material teaching in the public schools. My personal
advice for home schools (including "un-educators") is to provide a math
text book rich environment and to occasionally "test" you little
darling. For a small fee (or no fee in some cases) your kid can take a
placement test at a community college. If he does "gud enuf" he can
take "real" college courses at the community college. He he works hard
at community college (and, thus, gets good grades) he can transfer his
credits 1 for 1 to a 4 year "real" college.

But "text book" knowledge of math has never hurt anyone. Folks like
Einstein taught themselves (with TEXTBOOKS) much of the math they used
for their very creative life work.

IMO, someone who just doesn't "get" algebra is not well rounded
regardless of how well they can write or how much they know and can
demonstrate in the arts or history. (Obviously, they can't do much in
"science.")

Someone who doesn't have a math understanding at the level of the first
semester of Calculus will end up treating much of the real world as a
complete mystery.

I am quite happy for the 10th grade student who has figured this out.
I have no problem with him taking the personal decision that we knows
the amount of math he wants to know. But he should know what he
doesn't know.

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 5, 2009, 2:44:14 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
-=-Just for fun while my older girl was being "home schooled" I had her
take the previous year's SOL test for algebra. -=-

Do the quotation marks mean she was not really being home schooled?

-=-Some of my kids' present teachers do what many of my "back then"
teachers did...--=-

Does this mean your kids are in school?

-=-In regard to math, memorization of definitions and basic

assumptions is
an important part of math. Understanding that there are several sets
of definitions and even "minimal" definitions is an important part of

real progress in math. -=-

Learning and understanding is much better than memorization of
definitions.

-=-k rich environment and to occasionally "test" you little


darling. For a small fee (or no fee in some cases) your kid can take a
placement test at a community college. If he does "gud enuf" he can

take "real" college courses at the community college. -=-

This is quite tacky, y'know. If you think textbooks are as good as
natural learning, it seems you should consider ANY college classes
"real."

-=-But "text book" knowledge of math has never hurt anyone. -=-

Text books don't guarantee knowledge. Attempts to drag people
through textbook learning has hurt MANY people, both draggers and
dragees.

-=-IMO, someone who just doesn't "get" algebra is not well rounded


regardless of how well they can write or how much they know and can
demonstrate in the arts or history. (Obviously, they can't do much in

"science.")-=-

If you're not an unschooling parent, then your opinion isn't very
valuable in a discussion of unschooling. Writing, arts, history,
science, math.... that's a school-pattern for what might make
someone well rounded. One place to go to help shed yourself of that
limited curriculum is to try to see all the intelligences that school
ignores or puts on the periphery.
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
And once any intelligence is looked at, the areas on which it touches
and the topics to which it connects are limitless.

-=-Someone who doesn't have a math understanding at the level of the

first
semester of Calculus will end up treating much of the real world as a

complete mystery.-=-

Not if he's a musician. Not if he's an artist. Those who don't
understand art and music might seem (from the point of view of an
artist or musician) to be treating much of the world as a complete
mystery. As someone who had abilities school considered daydreaming
and talking too much, I think those without much interpersonal and
intrapersonal intelligence MUST see the world of human beings as a
complete mystery. But that's okay, because the world, too, is vast
and limitless. There are things for everyone to know and do.

-=-I am quite happy for the 10th grade student who has figured this out.


I have no problem with him taking the personal decision that we knows
the amount of math he wants to know. But he should know what he

doesn't know.-=-

Not very clear.
There are a badillion people who would be "quite happy" and "have no
problem" if all our kids went back to school right now today. That's
not what this list is about, though.

-=- But he should know what he doesn't know.-=-

Interestingly ambiguous statement.
You should know what you don't know about unschooling.
Maybe read about half of either of these:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

Sandra


Robin Bentley

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Jan 5, 2009, 3:33:28 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Thanks, Sandra. These are cool! I've been looking for this kind of
thing. We used to get placemats with the periodic table or breeds of
horses, but it's been hard to find something similar for adults/older
kids. We all love to read in the bathroom <g>.

Robin B.

Susan Fuerst

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Jan 5, 2009, 3:52:59 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
I often lament the size of our first floor bathroom - it makes it difficult
to strew good materials there; but it's a prime spot for that. Maybe I
could tape them to the wall.
Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Robin Bentley
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:33 PM
To: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Saxon Arithmetic Books.


Emile Snyder

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Jan 5, 2009, 5:00:18 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, nellebelle <nelle...@charter.net> wrote:
 
My kids don't hear "no" very often either. I have explained to my daughter this is something dad feels strongly about. But she still asks me repeatedly. She wants me to convince him to say yes.

My kids are still quite young, so I haven't run into this particular issue.  But the root cause seems like the general case of what to do when parent's boundaries differ, and how to resolve that.  My wife and I have sort of leapfrogged each other regarding how controlling we are wrt food.  Earlier on, I was reading all the unschooling lists and getting all starry eyed about stuff and felt like I wanted to be saying yes more and changing how we interacted over sweets/candy/etc. but that I "should" backup/enforce my wife's boundaries in the "eat some other stuff first, you've already had X servings, we'll have more tomorrow" sorts of ways. 

At some point my wife definitely passed me by, and now I'm the one more likely to be hearing the little nagging voice of doubt about diet/nutrition balance, etc..

I'm curious, how much has your daughter talked to her dad about the piercing issue?  Have you talked to him about it much?  Aside from the legal question, do you personally feel like this is something for which she should need your permission?

Thanks,
-Emile Snyder

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 5, 2009, 6:22:47 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
-=-I'm curious, how much has your daughter talked to her dad about
the piercing issue?-=-

When she was younger (9?10?) and wanted her ears pierced she did.

-=- Have you talked to him about it much?-=-

Intensely the other morning--enough to know he has no softness about
the idea.

-=-Aside from the legal question, do you personally feel like this is
something for which she should need your permission?-=-

How can that be aside from the legal question?

Sandra

Jenny

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Jan 5, 2009, 7:05:00 PM1/5/09
to UnschoolingDiscussion
> Hi, Jenny.  My son announced that he wants to obtain formal high
> school standing by writing the equivalency tests and he feels that he
> would not be able to pass the Math test without some further study
> from a book.  

If that's the case, perhaps you guys should find out what score he
would need for passing the math test, then find an equivilant test or
practice test to see if he can pass it already. It's possible he
already knows enough to pass the tests. Knowing how to answer every
question on a test isn't usually required for passing tests,
especially if the tests are scored on any kind of curve.

He  never, or almost never, used a calculator for
> anything for years & years; and uses some math in his daily life.  He
> is at about the grade 10 level.  

Using or not using a calculator has little to do with real math
skills. I think it's cool when kids can do math arithmetic in their
heads, but that has little to do with mathematics, although it will
come in handy for test taking. People use math all the time in their
daily lives, they often don't even know it! How do you know that your
son is about grade level 10? I'm curious as to why an unschooler
would keep track of their child's grade level in this manner.

He admits that he doesn't really like
> the Saxon method because it is "boring" but he does not think he is
> going to learn algebra or trig just by osmosis, as he has learned so
> many other things.

Is knowing algebra or trig necessary for passing the test? I would
have serious misgivings about offering up a textbook that my child
states is boring. Surely there is a better way for him to be able to
jump through the hoops to pass a test for the equivalency tests.
Also, I'm curious, why does he want to obtain formal high school
standing?

Jenny

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Jan 5, 2009, 7:31:54 PM1/5/09
to UnschoolingDiscussion
> In regard to math, memorization of definitions and basic assumptions is
> an important part of math.  

I absolutely and postively disagree with this 100%! This is only how
math is viewed in school, it has nothing whatsoever to do with real
math!

> Life being what it is, you aren't going to find folks who are
> mathematician material teaching in the public schools.   My personal
> advice for home schools (including "un-educators") is to provide a math
> text book rich environment and to occasionally "test" you little
> darling.  

I think text book math is damaging at best! To further focus on it
and actually do tests, is even more harmful! A rich math evironment
should have games and ideas flowing freely. Textbooks and tests do
not allow for this at all, and may actually hinder real working math
knowledge. Our schools damage kids in this way, and I unschool my
kids to avoid this kind of damage, pure and simple!

> But "text book" knowledge of math has never hurt anyone.  

Kids grow up hating math and that hurts everyone! Textbooks
discourage creative thinking skills that math requires. Math is more
about questions than answers, and textbooks ONLY focus on finding
answers. That hurts EVERYone! If a person grows up believing that
textbook math is real math, which most kids do end up believing, then
our entire society is hurt by this.


> IMO, someone who just doesn't "get" algebra is not well rounded
> regardless of how well they can write or how much they know and can
> demonstrate in the arts or history.   (Obviously, they can't do much in
> "science.")

Your assumptions are false! It used to be that math, science, and art
were all interdisciplines. Algebra is all code work to get an answer
from a meaningless set of numbers and values. I "get" algebra, and I
still don't see it as a valuable math skill that everyone must know.
Algebra is a very small part of mathematics. I actually find that I
use more math skills in my art than I ever did in any algebra class.
And science isn't all math either, nor should it be.

> Someone who doesn't have a math understanding at the level of the first
> semester of Calculus will end up treating much of the real world as a
> complete mystery.

What?! Really? That's very assumptive of human nature. To assume
that someone who doesn't have a first semester of calculus
understanding, is going to believe the real world to be a mystery,
you'd also have to assume that someone you does have an understanding
of first semester calculus as unraveled the mysteries of the world.
That's crazy and balsy to assume!

> I am quite happy for the 10th grade student who has figured this out.  
> I have no problem with him taking the personal decision that we knows
> the amount of math he wants to know.   But he should know what he
> doesn't know.

How can one know what they don't know?

Jenny

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Jan 5, 2009, 7:35:28 PM1/5/09
to UnschoolingDiscussion
> However, because the stated goal of the math knowledge is a test, I would
> completely aim to pass the test. I would get GED study books and take the
> sample tests and figure out what my weaknesses were. Absolutely aim all my
> efforts at the test. It's the hurdle, it's the goal, not the math.
>

This is spot on! Passing a test is the goal at this point, not actual
knowledge of math!

nellebelle

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Jan 6, 2009, 12:19:38 AM1/6/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
==I'm curious, how much has your daughter talked to her dad about the piercing issue?  Have you talked to him about it much?==
 
More than once, but I don't see a point to bringing it up again unless there is new information. I don't agree 100% with his view on piercing, but they are *our* kids. I see it as a choose-your-battles thing. There are other issues I consider more important and so have put more energy into discussing with him.
 
At the same time, I do care about my daughter feelings on the issue. I'm not sure how to respond to her when she asks me again and again (without any new ideas) about something that I know he hasn't changed his mind about. That is why I brought the issue here: to hear how other parents have dealt with it in the context of unschooling.
 
I'm not telling her "no, never," but so far am telling her "when you don't need us to decide for you." If her dad changed his mind, I would probably sign the papers.
 
 
==Aside from the legal question, do you personally feel like this is something for which she should need your permission?==
 
I haven't found any laws against it. [If anyone can point me to links to such laws in WA state, please email me off-list nelle...@charter.net.] The local piercing salons will not pierce minors (even ears) without a parent/guardian signature (it only takes one, not both). I could sign without his consent, but that does not seem right.
 
Mary Ellen

John Gilmer

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Jan 5, 2009, 10:57:55 PM1/5/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-Just for fun while my older girl was being "home schooled" I had her
> take the previous year's SOL test for algebra. -=-
>
> Do the quotation marks mean she was not really being home schooled?
>
In that I didn't use a package from anywhere, she wasn't home
schooled. She taught herself and I occasionally asked her questions
about what she was doing. She didn't attend the public schools for 3
years running. When she was 12 to meet a local requirement that she
somehow be "certified" to be at grade level, I had her take a community
college placement test ($5). She placed with "typical" high school
graduates.

> -=-Some of my kids' present teachers do what many of my "back then"
> teachers did...--=-
>
> Does this mean your kids are in school?
>

Yes.


> -=-In regard to math, memorization of definitions and basic
> assumptions is
> an important part of math. Understanding that there are several sets
> of definitions and even "minimal" definitions is an important part of
> real progress in math. -=-
>
> Learning and understanding is much better than memorization of
> definitions.
>

Like it or not, definitions are VERY important in mathematics. I agree
that "understanding" helps make the memorization process easier but to
progress in math you have to be able to re-create "tight" definitions of
math terms.


> -=-k rich environment and to occasionally "test" you little
> darling. For a small fee (or no fee in some cases) your kid can take a
> placement test at a community college. If he does "gud enuf" he can
> take "real" college courses at the community college. -=-
>
> This is quite tacky, y'know. If you think textbooks are as good as
> natural learning, it seems you should consider ANY college classes
> "real."
>

Actually, even in 4 year colleges, many of the courses many freshmen and
some sophomores take are just high school stuff. That's why I
distinguish between "real" college courses and high school courses that
are also offered in college.

But you knew that, didn't you.


> -=-But "text book" knowledge of math has never hurt anyone. -=-
>
> Text books don't guarantee knowledge. Attempts to drag people
> through textbook learning has hurt MANY people, both draggers and
> dragees.
>

I don't recall ANYONE suggest that any kids be "dragged" through
textbook learning. I did suggest that a bright kid might enjoy
teaching himself at his own pace just by using textbooks.

> -=-IMO, someone who just doesn't "get" algebra is not well rounded
> regardless of how well they can write or how much they know and can
> demonstrate in the arts or history. (Obviously, they can't do much in
> "science.")-=-
>
> If you're not an unschooling parent, then your opinion isn't very
> valuable in a discussion of unschooling. Writing, arts, history,
> science, math.... that's a school-pattern for what might make
> someone well rounded. One place to go to help shed yourself of that
> limited curriculum is to try to see all the intelligences that school
> ignores or puts on the periphery.
>

Yeah, yeah.

What are we talking about here? If anything, the schools concern
themselves with TOO MUCH of the student rather than the 4-Rs.


> http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
> And once any intelligence is looked at, the areas on which it touches
> and the topics to which it connects are limitless.
>
> -=-Someone who doesn't have a math understanding at the level of the
> first
> semester of Calculus will end up treating much of the real world as a
> complete mystery.-=-
>
> Not if he's a musician. Not if he's an artist.

Perhaps. But do you know that there is a good correlation between
music ability and mathematical ability? During WWII many of the most
effect "code breakers" has a music background. Seems to me that if
someone show the potential to be a good musician you do him a disservice
if you don't at least expose him to the world of mathematics. At the
least, he will understand the instruments he plays a little better.

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 6, 2009, 1:10:40 AM1/6/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
-=- But do you know that there is a good correlation between
music ability and mathematical ability? -=-

Yes, I knew that. My husband has always been very involved in music
and he's an engineer. Pam Sorooshian, one of the owners of this
list, plays cello, and is a math professor. I'm a musician, I read
music better than my husband does, and although I know the math and
physics involved in scales, chords, octaves, etc., it doesn't help or
matter to know the notation involved in them. I know bigger
recorders have lower tones, and I know how to tune a note on a
recorder by shading a lower hole if the note is sharp, and by
pinching the embouchure and changing the angle of the windflow to
sharpen a note. A vague understanding and the ability to DO it is
worth much more than a bunch of memorized explanations without the
ability to make music. I've done vocal music my whole life, and math
helps zip with that.

-=-Yeah, yeah.

-=-What are we talking about here?-=-

Unschooling. We're talking about how unschooling works and how it
can work better.

"The purpose of this list is to move out of our own comfort zones as
we critically examine our beliefs, ideas, and viewpoints about
learning, and seek a deeper understanding of unschooling and more
respectful relationships with our children."
http://groups.google.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion

Sandra

Sanguin...@aol.com

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Jan 6, 2009, 3:57:11 AM1/6/09
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In a message dated 1/6/2009 12:49:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnlew...@gmail.com writes:
<<<Like it or not, definitions are VERY important in mathematics.   I agree
that "understanding" helps make the memorization process easier but to
progress in math you have to be able to re-create "tight" definitions of
math terms. >>>
 
I can "do" algebra, I'm very good at math, geometry and trigonometry, I can take square root longhand. I might be able to give some "loose" definitions of some math terms, but I doubt very seriously that I could give a "tight" definition on *any* math terms... yet, it doesn't hinder my ability a bit. Having difficulty (in high school) with Algebra and its definitions did not affect my ability to progress to geometry and trigonometry-in fact, I excelled at those despite my huge struggle with Algebra. I do think "limitation-thinking" affects how a person can "progress" in learning and their perception of their ability to learn.
 
Peace,
De




New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines.

Lyla Wolfenstein

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Jan 6, 2009, 1:18:20 AM1/6/09
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i don't think anyone has posted either of these relevant articles yet:
 
and:
 
 
Lyla

Joyce Fetteroll

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Jan 6, 2009, 8:25:48 AM1/6/09
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On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:57 PM, John Gilmer wrote:

Like it or not, definitions are VERY important in mathematics.   I agree 

that "understanding" helps make the memorization process easier but to 

progress in math you have to be able to re-create "tight" definitions of 

math terms.   


When someone is certain that math acquired by school methods is real math, then the above seems true.

I don't think it's too off the wall to say that school math has done more damage to math understanding than anything else. When math is pulled out of context, it seems the only way to understand it is by very difficult school methods. (Whether one does them in school or on their own.)

I understand math *much* better far removed from school than I did in school. Experiencing it in context has helped my understanding hugely. My daughter was able to absorb an understanding first before she tackled the formal stuff. It worked out beautifully for her. She has a much better understanding of how numbers work than I did at her age.

In school, I learned how to identify types of problems and apply the solution we were learning. That's rote learning. I didn't really understand what was going on beneath. I enjoyed it though. It was like puzzles. I got very good grades in math and went onto engineering. What I found after college was that real world problems didn't resemble book problems at all. Real life equations are messy. What you need is an understanding of what was beneath the drill. Without that, the problems are baffling. (Fortunately I'd found my forte in software engineering so didn't have to tackle them by hand.)

Educators *hope* that understanding comes from rote. For some it does. For some it's just puzzles. For lots and lots of people it just makes them feel stupid and they end up hating math.

Math shows us new things about the real world. Without the real world to describe, without someone with questions needing answered, math has little meaning except for puzzlers who love to play with numbers.

I don't recall ANYONE suggest that any kids be "dragged" through
textbook learning.   I did suggest that a bright kid might enjoy
teaching himself at his own pace just by using textbooks.

And that is the type of thought many have at the beginning of unschooling.

The world is larger than textbooks. There are much *better* ways to learn than textbooks. It's helpful for new unschoolers -- who are already too familiar with textbook learning -- to see all the other ways that kids can learn.

Seems to me that if
someone show the potential to be a good musician you do him a disservice
if you don't at least expose him to the world of mathematics.

Again, this is new to unschooling think. It seems like if unschoolers are not saying "Show kids the textbooks and make them available" that they're being handicapped in learning math.

Textbooks are good for learning school math. It's a very limited, artificial math disconnected from the real world.

Until someone can see how math gets learned as a side effect of doing, it's helpful for them to stay away from textbooks. Puzzles (online and books), games, building, comparing, measuring. There's a whole real world kids should be playing math in before even opening a textbook (if they ever do).

That sounds, of course, like no unschooler should ever hand a kid a math text. It doesn't. It means that until someone can see how math is learned more profoundly other ways, textbooks will get in their way.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

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Jan 6, 2009, 8:33:55 AM1/6/09
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On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:19 AM, nellebelle wrote:

> At the same time, I do care about my daughter feelings on the
> issue. I'm not sure how to respond to her when she asks me again
> and again (without any new ideas) about something that I know he
> hasn't changed his mind about.

Maybe turn it around. Tell her than though you could sign the form,
you don't want to damage your relationship with him. It would hurt
him if you disregarded his feelings on the matter.

Tell her you do understand that she feels his disregarding her
feelings, but it's something he feels strongly about. And talk about
the ways he does show his love to everyone and that if she pushes
this one issue, it could affect that. Not because he would love her
less but the action might feel to him like she loves him less because
the no piercing thing is something important to him.

Of course that only makes sense if he isn't saying no a lot.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

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Jan 6, 2009, 8:39:07 AM1/6/09
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On Jan 4, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Mrs. Mouse wrote:

My son announced that he wants to obtain formal high

school standing by writing the equivalency tests and he feels that he

would not be able to pass the Math test without some further study

from a book.


From an unschooling stand point, this is the crux of the matter. It helps hugely to find out what our kids' goals are when they're asking for something that seems counter to natural learning.

Rather than coming to unschoolers with help on implementing a solution, it's better to come with the underlying problem. That way more creative solutions can be offered. Finding the "right' Saxon text isn't nearly as useful to unschoolers as a variety of ways for learning math -- or in this case passing a test.

Joyce

Mar...@aol.com

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Jan 6, 2009, 8:58:09 AM1/6/09
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Mrs. Mouse wrote:

>>My son announced that he wants to obtain formal high

school standing by writing the equivalency tests and he feels that he

would not be able to pass the Math test without some further study

from a book.<<

 

Then Joyce wrote:
>>Rather than coming to unschoolers with help on implementing a solution, it's better to come with the underlying problem. That way more creative solutions can be offered. Finding the "right' Saxon text isn't nearly as useful to unschoolers as a variety of ways for learning math -- or in this case passing a test.<<
______________________________________

*****This is sort of my dilemma as well....my son (12+) wants to take college courses in the near future,  but knows he will have to pass a math test, (or he would also like to be able to take a math test to be able to skip math courses if he knows the material), and because of this he feels he would need help from a math *program*. 
 
 He's good in math and knows how to figure things out that he needs and has had no formal training.  He's never done a math program since age 5.
 
This whole math discussion has been interesting and has had me rethinking whether to purchase Teaching Textbook when I have the money.
 
His goal would be to use a program just to be able to pass a test, and feel confident that he can. But I would be interested in other ways to get him to his goal if using a program would be counter productive. 
 
I also have a daughter in college who saved all her high school textbooks, getting dusty in the basement<<G>>... maybe I should dig out the math ones and have them hanging around.
 
He already knows one doesn't need just books and classes to learn but it's hard for me to see other ways to get him to his goal. I need creative suggestions.
 
~marcia simonds
 
 
 
 

k

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Jan 6, 2009, 10:10:08 AM1/6/09
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>>>>>Like it or not, definitions are VERY important in mathematics.   I agree
that "understanding" helps make the memorization process easier but to
progress in math you have to be able to re-create "tight" definitions of
math terms.<<<<<

The above is a belief, an opinion.  Knowing is, in my opinion, very distinct from memorizing.

Switch from numbers to words, which also operate within tight structures.  To make sense words operate only in certain patterns.  In American English we say "on the podium" not "in."  The word "the" comes before words like "podium."  To use language, you don't need knowledge of terms like preposition, definitive, noun etc. though jargon can help when presenting an academic paper about language use in for instance a linguistics paper.  Jargon is ok but not at all necessary in order to know how to use language.  And this is true no matter how intricate and complex the language usage.

Switch from words back to numbers now.  To make sense, numbers operate only in certain ways.  Jargon can help when referring academically to the use of numbers in for instance an algebra paper.  Jargon is ok but not at all necessary in order to know how to use numbers.  And this is true no matter how intricate and complex the numbers usage. 

~Katherine


Dana Hayden

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Jan 6, 2009, 11:47:02 AM1/6/09
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>>Rather than coming to unschoolers with help on implementing a solution, it's better to come with the underlying problem. That way more creative solutions can be offered. Finding the "right' Saxon text isn't nearly as useful to unschoolers as a variety of ways for learning math -- or in this case passing a test.<<

I also have a 15 yr old son who is currently going through this:  he wants to take some community college classes, wants to pass the placement test, and does not want to placed into the lowest level math class upon completion (they call Math 10). 

He has always unschooled math, living and playing, designing with Lego's and K'Nex and is confident in his understanding of math concepts. But to pass the test he is currently using Math.com for practice. Long division frustrates him and he questions the real world application of the process. 

I love that he has decided he wants to achieve a goal and has figured out his path...but I am still stuck feeling like I need to sit down with him and work through some problems and that leads to feeliing like we need to "catch-up".  I agree, a textbook is not the only solution.

Can others share how they have helped their unschooled kids traverse this course and land happily in the community college world or other desired goal?

Dana

Emile Snyder

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Jan 6, 2009, 12:42:59 PM1/6/09
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On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:19 PM, nellebelle <nelle...@charter.net> wrote:
==I'm curious, how much has your daughter talked to her dad about the piercing issue?  Have you talked to him about it much?==
 
More than once, but I don't see a point to bringing it up again unless there is new information. I don't agree 100% with his view on piercing, but they are *our* kids. I see it as a choose-your-battles thing. There are other issues I consider more important and so have put more energy into discussing with him.

Understood.
 
At the same time, I do care about my daughter feelings on the issue. I'm not sure how to respond to her when she asks me again and again (without any new ideas) about something that I know he hasn't changed his mind about.

This is part of what seems odd to me.  It sounds like your daughter is asking you to  intervene  on her behalf, not just sign the consent form on your own.  But it  also sounds like a battle you're not interested in having.  Have you presented it to her like that?  Something like: "I don't feel strongly about this but your father does.  These other issues X, Y, Z  where he and I have differences are more important to me and are where I would like to spend my energy on persuasion.  Please talk to him about getting pierced, not me."  Or if she's not comfortable with that trying to find out why, possibly offer to be present as a discussion mediator?


==Aside from the legal question, do you personally feel like this is something for which she should need your permission?==
 
I haven't found any laws against it. [If anyone can point me to links to such laws in WA state, please email me off-list nelle...@charter.net.] The local piercing salons will not pierce minors (even ears) without a parent/guardian signature (it only takes one, not both). I could sign without his consent, but that does not seem right.

Your daughter could also pierce herself, or have a friend do it, and moot the whole question of a consent form signature.  How would that be received by her father?  How would you feel about it?  (ie. do all parties involved see this as her asking him to sign a permission slip, or as asking for his permission to get pierced, regardless of how?)

I hope I haven't been sounding argumentative or combative; I'm not trying to ask questions because I think there is a right answer for a parent to have here.  In general I think that parents' differing boundaries is something that can easily be in tension with unschooling; and am interested in thinking harder about how those tensions can best be resolved.  Thanks for sharing this case on the list.

-emile


Emile Snyder

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Jan 6, 2009, 12:58:48 PM1/6/09
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On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:

-=-Aside from the legal question, do you personally feel like this is
something for which she should need your permission?-=-

How can that be aside from the legal question?

Perhaps I should have said bureaucratic rather than legal.

Well, shut me down here if this is getting too far from any real issue, but I often feel like my personal convictions about moral actions do not coincide particularly well with the particular set of laws or rules which exist.  To give a somewhat strained thought experiment: suppose a library system required parental consent to get a library card until you were 18.  I personally feel like that's a wrong rule; I don't think that my children should need my permission to get a library card, so, distinction between bureaucratic/legal question and personal feeling.

thanks,
-emile

Joyce Fetteroll

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Jan 6, 2009, 1:23:12 PM1/6/09
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On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:58 PM, Emile Snyder wrote:

To give a somewhat strained thought experiment: suppose a library system required parental consent to get a library card until you were 18.

A better example might be suggesting kids use a different age to create a membership on a website that restricts younger members.


but I often feel like my personal convictions about moral actions do not coincide particularly well with the particular set of laws or rules which exist.

Why does the law exist? What are the potential consequences? Who will get hurt? Those are the things people should ask themselves.

I don't think its a good idea to blindly obey or blindly disobey. It's a case by case decision.

Who gets hurt if an underage child gets a membership on a game site? The purpose of the rule is to protect the game site because there are certain legal issues for them (not collecting data from minors, minors interacting with adults and whatever else they're concerned about.) But if a parent gives a child permission, what consequences are there to the parent or child? Or even the company?

On the other hand, what if one parent flouts the law and allows a minor to get pierced? What if it gets infected? What if there's a divorce and the other spouse brings up what the parent did? (That's not going to look good.)

None of those are reasons not to do it, but there are consequences to weigh when considering going against a rule or law.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 6, 2009, 2:29:03 PM1/6/09
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-=-Can others share how they have helped their unschooled kids
traverse this course and land happily in the community college world
or other desired goal?-=-

Kirby tested into the middle of the five remedial levels, with no
preparation at all. He got the highest grade in the class on the
final test.

One of Pam Sorooshian's daughters just started at the lowest remedial
and took each one, as her formal math education.

If Kirby had "crammed" so that he had tested into a higher level, he
could easily have gotten into a class that was beyond his knowledge,
and ended up feeling that math was too hard.

Kirby went in not knowing the notation for math at all. He was great
in his head and in practical uses, but one thing he learned "on the
job" was the notation for a formula. It wasn't ALL news, because
he's used calculators and computer games that had "math problems"
sometimes as ways to get to other levels, but what helped him most
was his everyday knowledge of percentages and relationships and
language. He's clear and logical and wasn't afraid of school, texts
or tests.

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

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Jan 6, 2009, 2:36:37 PM1/6/09
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-=-In general I think that parents' differing boundaries is something
that can easily be in tension with unschooling; and am interested in
thinking harder about how those tensions can best be resolved. -=-

Mostly because the fact that some people don't think about that
enough, I have pages on divorce and spouses. Some people will come
here and say "I'm unschooling but my husband doesn't know," or "I
want to unschool and my husband doesn't, so how can I make him
agree?" or things to that effect. In my mind I replace "unschool"
with "yacht."

"I bought a yacht, but my husband doesn't know."
"I want a yacht and my husband doesn't, so how can I make him agree?"

Put that way, it seems clear, and funny.

http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/spouses

The relationship between the parents is not something they can put
off until after the kids are gone.

Sandra

Rue Kream

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Jan 6, 2009, 4:07:27 PM1/6/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
>> Aside from the legal question, do you personally feel like this is
something for which she should need your permission?

**Dagny has had her ears (lobes and cartilage) and nose pierced, and has
done a bit of gauging. Piercing is a pretty major interest for her.

She was 15 when she got her nose ring, so Jon (who went with her) did
have to sign some paperwork. For us it was a meaningless exercise. Jon
and I don't give or withhold permission when our kids make choices.
Sure, legally we have the right to do so. Legally we have the right to
curtail our kids' freedom in lots of ways. Our family has chosen a
different way to live in relationship with each other. The four of us
have an understanding that Jon and I will not ever pull what we call the
parenting trump card.

That wouldn't be possible if Jon and I weren't on the same page as far
as our core beliefs, even while our individual comfort levels are very
different.

So far when one of our kids has stepped over what I think of as the Pat
Farenga line <g> ("When pressed, I define unschooling as allowing
children as much freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can
comfortably bear."), when they've wanted more freedom to learn in the
world than one or both of us parents could comfortably bear - and I
wouldn't say the nose piercing was one of those times for us, but we
have had some - we've been able to kind of carry each other through it
and re-ground each other in what we believe. And looking back I'd say
every time we've stepped out of our comfort zone to help our kids do
something they've decided they want to do the trust and respect between
us all has grown enormously.

~Rue

Jenny

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Jan 6, 2009, 4:26:24 PM1/6/09
to UnschoolingDiscussion
Seems to me that if
> someone show the potential to be a good musician you do him a disservice
> if you don't at least expose him to the world of mathematics.   At the
> least, he will understand the instruments he plays a little better.

It seems that my definition of exposing someone to math is very
different. I don't consider textbook math, or even classroom math, or
hierarchical lock, step math, to be real math. Exposing someone to
math, isn't puting a textbook in front of them, or testing them, or
making sure that they are measuring up to some arbitrary school idea
of where all kids in one particular age set should be and know about
what they consider math.

This is way too in the box thinking about mathematics!

>What are we talking about here? If anything, the schools concern
>themselves with TOO MUCH of the student rather than the 4-Rs.

This is too much of a comparison of school. The 3-R's are an old
standard by which schools used to measure people. People get all
sentimental about the R's, like it was some truth or absolute about
what all people should know. It glossed over all other things, in
favor of what could be learned and make a person most functional in
the world at that time, in the shortest amount of time, to get the
kids home by supper and available to bring the cows home or harvest
fields.

Unschooling strives for something better. The student in mind are our
own personal kids, and I do concern myself VERY much with my own
kids. That IS what my focus is on. My concern with public schools
and the way they do things only concerns me in the theoretical. There
is little I can do to change that big machine. Yet, it does affect
everyone, because it mass produces people that are damaged.

What I absolutely don't want to do, is bring any of that home to my
kids! I feel strongly that the ways in which mathematics is taught,
and the ways in which kids in school are exposed to it are absolutely
harmful. So I don't bring that home and recreate it here to harm my
own children. My kids learn math anyway, they are exposed to math
everyday, they can't help but be because math is all around us.


Jenny

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Jan 6, 2009, 4:56:18 PM1/6/09
to UnschoolingDiscussion
> I also have a 15 yr old son who is currently going through this:  he wants
> to take some community college classes, wants to pass the placement test,
> and does not want to placed into the lowest level math class upon completion
> (they call Math 10).

I know being placed into the lowest level of anything will carry a
stigma. Why should it though? If where he tests into, is where he
fits for taking the class, why would that be a problem? Does he care
a great deal about remedial placement? If he does, why? Perhaps his
biggest concern is that it doesn't "count" towards anything. While
that may be officially true for getting to the level of math that does
count, it still would count personally for him to be able to get to
the level that does count officially.

> I love that he has decided he wants to achieve a goal and has figured out
> his path...but I am still stuck feeling like I need to sit down with him and
> work through some problems and that leads to feeliing like we need to
> "catch-up".  I agree, a textbook is not the only solution.

If the goal is to get into a certain level of math class, then do what
it takes to do that. Or, he could simply test into the level he tests
into and all that "catch-up" stress can be eliminated by the sheer
fact that he'll be doing it in the class that he's tested into.

> Can others share how they have helped their unschooled kids traverse this
> course and land happily in the community college world or other desired
> goal?

Community college is really the ideal place to find academic placement
for those on the higher ed track. It's relatively low pressure and a
much lower cost.

I'm not there yet, my daughter is 14 still, and her next test will be
her driver's permit, which I can say without a doubt, she will pass it
simply because she's highly motivated to do so. Thus far, she has no
interest in college. She'd like to go to school for learning how to
cut hair though.

mysti...@frontiernet.net

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Jan 6, 2009, 8:33:45 PM1/6/09
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Emmy, Joe and I are sitting here on the couch. Em just came upstairs and saw us both sitting here and snatched the opportunity.
"Can I get my belly button pierced?""

I'm so glad I saved this email. I read Rue words to them, explaining that it made me see a different viewpoint.
Emily and I laughed at the timing, I hoped to have at least a week before she asked about piercing again!
I told her that I, personally, feel that she may be perceived a certain way from having this piercing, but that this is HER body and and while I may feel a certain way, this is her choice. I also let her know that I would not sign anything if it went against her father's wishes although i hope that he would understand that this is her decision, not ours.

He's listening to us. He'll ponder. He'll let us know how he feels.
I'll let you know how this plays out.

Chef Lis
Personal Chef Services and Catering
(240) 601-1751
WriteC...@aol.com

Laura Endres

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Jan 6, 2009, 10:39:03 PM1/6/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
>>>>*****This is sort of my dilemma as well....my son (12+) wants to take college courses in the near future,  but knows he will have to pass a math test, (or he would also like to be able to take a math test to be able to skip math courses if he knows the material), and because of this he feels he would need help from a math *program*. 
>>>>
 
My son had to pass a math test in order to take classes at our community college.  He didn't place as high as he'd have liked, but after the test he said, "Now that I've seen it, I know I can pass it."  And at our community college, you can take the test again for $5.  So, perhaps that's a great way to approach it - take it once, get a look at the thing, if he doesn't score high enough, just take it again!  If that's an option, of course. That way he'd know exactly what to expect.  As it was, the math test for our CC was only 20 multiple choice questions.
 
Laura

http://piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com/
*~*~*~*~*~*
"Children aren't coloring
books.  You don't get to fill them
with your favorite colors."
~From The Kite Runner
*~*~*~*~*~*

Laura Endres

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Jan 6, 2009, 10:57:40 PM1/6/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
>>>Seems to me that if
>>>someone show the potential to be a good musician you do him a disservice
>>>if you don't at least expose him to the world of mathematics.   At the
>>>least, he will understand the instruments he plays a little better.
 
 
This statement implies assumptions that aren't conducive to unschooling: 
 
1 - That a person who shows potential in music must be exposed to math and music.  What if s/he isn't interested?  My son shows potential in drawing but he's not at all interested in learning more, nor being exposed to any tangential things that may make him better at drawing, even though the few times he's sketched something it came quite easily to him. 
 
2 - That a person who is interested in music won't ever discover connections between music and mathematics on her own.  I submit that anyone who is interested in pursuing a topic will more than likely not only discover those connections but fold them into their learning in a very organic way, when and IF needed and/or desired.
 
3 - That an adult or teacher must somehow require the potential musician to include mathematics in his study.  As unschoolers, we often make suggestions and point out connections that we feel they'll find useful, but we don't do it in a "you must incorporate this or your learning is incomplete" sort of way.  That sounds a whole lot like making a passion become a chore and requirement. 

Schuyler Waynforth

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Jan 7, 2009, 4:53:25 AM1/7/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
David and a couple of his students did research on how piercings changed how someone was perceived. They added piercings to pictures of people without piercings and had the pictures rated for attractiveness. The unpierced pictures were rated as more attractive by people without piercings and the pierced pictures were rated as more attractive by people with piercings. The paper was about ingroup signalling. It didn't get published, but I'm sure it's tucked away in a file on his computer, so if anybody wants to read it...

Schuyler

Joyce Fetteroll

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Jan 7, 2009, 6:03:16 AM1/7/09
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On Jan 6, 2009, at 11:47 AM, Dana Hayden wrote:

> He has always unschooled math, living and playing, designing with
> Lego's and K'Nex and is confident in his understanding of math
> concepts. But to pass the test he is currently using Math.com for
> practice.

I suspect he's stressing himself well beyond what the test or class
will do.

I glanced at the site and it's just the same horrid explanations and
problems I did in school 45 years ago that gave me Cs in math. (Later
in school when there was less focus on the pesky numbers and I got to
do the fun stuff like algebra and geometry, I got As.) They aren't
exercises for learning but exercises to prevent kids from using
misleading tricks to get the answer. But in the process,
understanding gets lost in the details.

If someone understands how to do questions like:

300 - 20 =
210 - 20 =

They understand subtraction.

If someone can do:

300 - -20 =
-300 - 20 =

and others like that, they understand the concept of signs.

Doing problems like:

-987 - -654 =

doesn't demonstrate any greater understanding. It's an exercise in
tedium. It's set up so that someone is likely to lose track of a
number along the way out of the boredom, get the wrong answer and
come to the conclusion they don't get math.

I've got a sneaking suspicion that in the back of his head he is
assuming anything that is as tediously difficult as the questions on
that site must be good for him. That the more one suffers, the
better. But it isn't true.

Has he seen the Standard Deviant DVDs?

But he should just take the test and see how he does. Then if he
doesn't pass he'll have a better idea what to focus on.


> Long division frustrates him and he questions the real world
> application of the process.

He *should* question it. Even when I worked as an engineer I didn't
do long division. He should be using a calculator. I suspect the only
ones doing long division anymore are kids and math teachers.

Seeing why long division works is cool. But doing hundreds of long
problems doesn't create understanding. I did them. I really didn't
get the concept until after college when I had the freedom to see it
for what it was without the pressure to make the process give me the
answer the teacher wanted.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 7, 2009, 1:46:11 PM1/7/09
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-=-It didn't get published, but I'm sure it's tucked away in a file
on his computer, so if anybody wants to read it...-=-

Is he hoping to have it published in the future?
How would he feel about making it available on something like a
website, something like mine?

Sandra

Schuyler Waynforth

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Jan 7, 2009, 4:11:37 PM1/7/09
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Thanks Sandra, that's a nice offer.

 I'm not sure what sort of shape I left the paper in -- it may be a bit of a mess. Most of it is about cooperation rather than perceived attractiveness. We had people play the prisoner's dilemma cooperation game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma. People were approached to play the game on a computer, with the other player's photo shown on the screen. What we found was strong cooperation when a person with multiple piercings played the game with someone pictured with multiple facial piercings. Non-pierced people were more likely to defect in the game when the other person had multiple piercings. The results are not really very surprising, suggesting that those with piercings will attract favorable, cooperative responses from others with piercings, and will be viewed as not trustworthy by the unpierced.

Cheers,
David

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 8, 2009, 2:57:47 AM1/8/09
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> Non-pierced people were more likely to defect in the game when the
> other person had multiple piercings. The results are not really very
> surprising, suggesting that those with piercings will attract
> favorable, cooperative responses from others with piercings, and
> will be viewed as not trustworthy by the unpierced.

That seems to be good information for parents to have, and I had also
thought that maybe the principle would extend to unschoolers and
school-committed families. Unschoolers seem to attract favorable
responses from other unschoolers, and be viewed as untrustworthy by
school families.

Sandra

Emile Snyder

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Jan 8, 2009, 6:13:09 AM1/8/09
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On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Schuyler Waynforth <s.way...@googlemail.com> wrote:
<snip>

Most of it is about cooperation rather than perceived attractiveness. We had people play the prisoner's dilemma cooperation game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma. People were approached to play the game on a computer, with the other player's photo shown on the screen. What we found was strong cooperation when a person with multiple piercings played the game with someone pictured with multiple facial piercings. Non-pierced people were more likely to defect in the game when the other person had multiple piercings. The results are not really very surprising, suggesting that those with piercings will attract favorable, cooperative responses from others with piercings, and will be viewed as not trustworthy by the unpierced.

I would be interested in reading the paper even if just for the references ;)  I'm curious about whether the same effect has been demonstrated with other group identities (gender, race, etc.) and if so, how strong the pierced/un-pierced effect was relatively.

thanks,
-emile

Schuyler Waynforth

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Jan 8, 2009, 1:30:14 PM1/8/09
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David looked at the paper today and realized that everything up to the conclusion is in good shape. He's working on a textbook chapter at the moment and when he's done with that he'll tidy up the rest of the paper and send it to you, Sandra.

Schuyler

Mrs. Mouse

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Jan 8, 2009, 2:39:12 PM1/8/09
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Jenny said:

" My kids learn math anyway, they are exposed to math
everyday, they can't help but be because math is all around us. "

How old are your children? My boy also learned the simplest forms of
counting & calculting with no grief, because there was stuff he wanted
to know the quantities & areas of, etc. As you say, it's all around
us! This won't wash where algebra & more advanced geometry
("measuring the earth") are concerned, tho, unless the children are
geniuses who see & understand it all instinctively.

Joyce Fetteroll

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Jan 9, 2009, 5:54:28 AM1/9/09
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On Jan 8, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Mrs. Mouse wrote:

This won't wash where algebra & more advanced geometry

("measuring the earth") are concerned, tho, unless the children are

geniuses who see & understand it all instinctively.


Algebra and geometry describe the real world. 

Each have a formal notation, but the underlying concepts and the things algebra and geometry are describing are real world objects and comparisons. That's what math is *for*: to describe the world, to help us compare and contrast, to help us figure out what we don't know from what we do.

 The more real world experience the kids have, the easier the formal notation will be to grasp because they'll already have an understanding of what it is the formal notation is trying to describe. (How easy will depend on how their brain is wired (like Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences) Introducing formal notation sooner, before they have real world experience to apply it to, won't change their type of intelligence.

If a child is pressured to understand formal notation before they have an interest that will pull the notation in and match it up with life, it can interfere with their understanding of life and of the notation. I'm sure there are loads of schooled kids whose brains shut down when they see percentage in real life just because they were marched through formal problems before they had reason to care what a percent was.

Joyce

k

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Jan 9, 2009, 10:04:08 AM1/9/09
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I was surprised to learn that one of the curses of school math instruction is that one might not know that when we add 1 + 1 to get 2, we're using algebra. 

1x + 1x = 2x

Algebra operates the same way we've already been using numbers and associates the numbers with the objects that were left out of the equation.  Algebra is intended to give us more ways to talk about numbers as they refer to the objects in the world around us.  The reason it trips us up is because our early exposure to numbers was most likely too early.

~Katherine


Sandra Dodd

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Jan 9, 2009, 10:46:56 AM1/9/09
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-=- This won't wash where algebra & more advanced geometry

("measuring the earth") are concerned, tho, unless the children are
geniuses who see & understand it all instinctively.
-=-

If you only see math as the notation of math, then that makes sense.

If you've been spending these unschooling years learning (yourself
learning) to see where math is in the real world and how to think and
understand things in a more mathematical way in the absence of
mathematical notation, then it doesn't make the same sense.

It's unlikely that someone will learn musical notation without
someone else helping them, but I know two people who learned it with
very little help.

If you can see where music is and how a person can be musical and
understand a great many things about music without knowing how to
read music, that will help with seeing mathematics differently.

If you think that learning to read music makes one musical or causes
them to understand music instinctively, then you're on the wrong
track concerning natural learning.

Pressing people to do/memorize/"teach themselves" notation when they
don't have a clue what it is they're "notating" can prevent them from
EVER understanding it at all.

Sandra

Letty

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Jan 9, 2009, 9:56:21 AM1/9/09
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Robin Allen

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Jan 9, 2009, 8:23:26 AM1/9/09
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On Jan 8, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Mrs. Mouse wrote:

his won't wash where algebra & more advanced geometry
("measuring the earth") are concerned, tho, unless the children are
geniuses who see & understand it all instinctively.


~ ~ ~

I scored 760 on the math portion of my SAT's twenty five years ago
(bragging!) and I understand math pretty instinctively but at forty
two years old, I have not yet had any urges (or need) to measure the
earth and would be clueless as to how one would do that. If one of my
kids decides that they want to measure the earth, I'll help them find
out how though, after I ask them why. Its all good!

Peace,
Robin in FL, mom to several math geniuses.

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 9, 2009, 11:34:02 AM1/9/09
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-=-I was surprised to learn that one of the curses of school math instruction is that one might not know that when we add 1 + 1 to get 2, we're using algebra.  

1x + 1x = 2x

Algebra operates the same way we've already been using numbers and associates the numbers with the objects that were left out of the equation.  Algebra is intended to give us more ways to talk about numbers as they refer to the objects in the world around us.  The reason it trips us up is because our early exposure to numbers was most likely too early.-=-


I think it's WAY better to have experienced trying and succeeding in figuring out some things without the notation (like singing without even thinking that there's a way to make a drawing of how the tune can be reproduced where someone can't hear you) before learning words like "variables" while sitting where a bunch of numbers are stacked and spread out this way and that.

If you have however much food and however many people show up, what will you do?  In the real world its not always just numerical.

This is some kind of engineering or programming situation.   Yesterday nine of us ate at the restaurant where Marty works.  Marty advised us to wait until the shift change at 4:00.  He was working until 3:00 (turned out to be 3:35, but that didn't change our considerations except in retrospect--3:00 would've been too early).  Keith works a couple of miles past that place and had a four passenger car.   Marty has a four-passenger, with him at work.  Both of those have standard transmissions.

At my house, we have seven people.  We  have a seven passenger vehicle with an automatic transmission, a four passenger, six passenger (maybe seven, but it's not ours) and a five passenger.  Holly is on call and might need to go to work at 5:00 or 5:30, so she needs to have a car there that she can operate.

We still need to be able to get eight people home if Holly  has taken a car from the restaurant to the mall, where she works, but she can't drive the seven passenger van.

Each car could be seen as a number, 1 to X (the car's maximum capacity).  Keith and Marty showed up as 1 and can leave as 1, 2, 3, or 4.

The store said they didn't need Holly; business was slow and the mall wasn't busy.

We have four cars after dinner.  They came from three different starting places and are all four going to our house.  Keith parks in the back.  The other three pulled up into the front nearly all the same time, because no one had any stops to make.

That could all be written out in flowchart fashion.  A program could be written to show all the possible permutations.   We could have given the vehicles identifying codes (a, b, c, d) and then put the maximum number of people into a, filled b from the remainder, and c would've  had some number of people.  Then d wouldn't have a driver.  So that's not good.

We could try taking four people out of the number so that each letter/car is correlated with one driver, but that can't be random.  Some can't drive standard transmissions.  Some don't know the way to our house from the restaurant.  Some don't want to drive if there are others who would rather drive (that's me, for one).

How do you "mathemetize" these factors, though?  Some of the people see each other all the time.  Some have missed some of the others and would appreciate any 20 minute opportunity to hang out with them.  Some are just getting to know one or more of the others.  This was done by self selection of the passengers, without pressure, and we ended up with two cars of two, one car of three and another of whatever was left (I was with Keith and we were gone first and got home first and parked in the back and I went up front to unlock the door and saw the other three cars arrive).

That's a lot of factors!!  How much math did we need to make it work?  It was finger counting, with considerations that would be difficult to impossible to put into a formula.

Sandra



Sandra Dodd

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Jan 9, 2009, 11:53:01 AM1/9/09
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-=- I have not yet had any urges (or need) to measure the
earth and would be clueless as to how one would do that.-=-

I liked geometry until they got to solids and I got confused. I use
plane geometry for things that aren't really planes--for sewing.
I've made lots of clothes without patterns (and lots WITH, lest
anyone here think I don't really know how to sew "the right way").

Sewing with patterns is "the right way" if I want to work in a factory.
For making clothes and costumes and bags to hold big wooden games
Keith has made, and to design tents from pictures on tapestries or
manuscripts... that has taken some geometrical thinking, but not much
in the way of a formula. It helps to know angles, but unlike the
diagrams in the books, I need seam allowances. Point A to point B
needs at least half an inch of "overage," and more if you're doing a
felled seam. I don't know how THAT would be shown mathematically--a
seam that closes over on itself so that either side is solid and
"finished." I sure know how to do it, even though I couldn't write a
mathematical model of it. If I were a buyer of denim for Levi
Strauss, I guess I might have more need to know. Probably not, even
then.

When one is going to gather or pleat, there can be a need to know how
much material will be needed, but even then the deal with home sewing
is you get extra, you mark the points where the seams will be, and
you gather or pleat the material between them. I've done cartridge
pleating for a REALLY full back skirt for a Renaissance costume, and
that's also a matter of taking as much cloth as you want to use (and
the measurement is not crucial) and gathering it up so that the top
is 18" or whatever, and the bottom is several feet.

I made a tent once and the angle of the roof and the height were
determined by the amount of cloth I had. That was all rectangles and
triangles. It helped to know, when making a four-sided pyramidish
thing that taking a side panel sized piece and cutting it diagonally
and turning them both with the little corner up would make corners
for the structure. And for the door? I made two side panels. So I
had five side panels, four corners, and four triangles to make the
roof, but while the corners needed right triangles, the roof needed
those symmetrical triangles (isosceles, but if I hadn't know the word
I could still have made them). And with cloth, to make four of
those, there are several ways to cut the cloth, depending on the
height you want. With cloth there are limitations you don't have
with theoretical triangles in limitless space. If you had an
unlimited length of cloth, you could cut four whole triangles, but
it's kinda wasteful. You can cut two, and then piece the other two
triangles from what's left over.

E-mail could use giving us the ability to sketch.

If that seems overwhelming to read, let me point out that I could
show you these things in their physical form. What I did had an
immediate practical application. It was mathematical, but I did it
in English. I used a yardstick and a piece of chalk, not numbers on
paper.

I designed and made the frame for that tent, too, with a rattan pole,
some 1x4 lumber, rope, four blocks of wood for tensioners, four bolts
with wingnuts and four string loops. Four tent takes. And there was
"the egyptian way" to find where to put the tent stakes before the
tent went up, because if two of the pieces of the wood frame that
hung where the roof met the sides were sit in an L from the center
point, and then turned every direction, they touched the place where
the corner stake should be, because the proportion of the roof edge
to the ground was twice (or four or eight or whatever--it didn't
matter if I even knew), and two poles....

(I'll ask Keith to explain this. I use English and he uses numbers.)

My point is that there are ways to use geometry without it being
written down and there are ways to write it down without having the
faintest clue what it might be actually used for in a real life
situation.

Sandra

k

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Jan 9, 2009, 1:41:47 PM1/9/09
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>>>>> Sewing with patterns is "the right way" if I want to work in a factory.
For making clothes and costumes and bags to hold big wooden games
Keith has made, and to design tents from pictures on tapestries or
manuscripts... that has taken some geometrical thinking, but not much
in the way of a formula.  It helps to know angles, but unlike the
diagrams in the books, I need seam allowances.  Point A to point B
needs at least  half an inch of "overage," and more if you're doing a
felled seam.  I don't know how THAT would be shown mathematically--a
seam that closes over on itself so that either side is solid and
"finished."  I sure know how to do it, even though I couldn't write a
mathematical model of it.  If I were a buyer of denim for Levi
Strauss, I guess I might have more need to know.  Probably not, even
then. <<<<<

Probably not.  I'm sure the corporations in hiring may ask for degrees in a variety of fields to cover their need for expertise according to their perceptions of what expertise is. 

I forget the name of the company and I could probably find out but I'm not in touch with the lady much anymore since I moved.  A homeschooling mom of 5 kids at one time (pre-kids) made the patterns and advised people how to make the cutter for multiple cuttings, which needed to be custom made for the sizing and proprietary designs of the clothes.  The design was already there.  She sized up and down, and made the gradations (or whatever it's called) so that the clothes fit at the points where no sizing was needed.  She didn't use a formula but understood how and where patterning needed to be different in order to fit well.  All without models, in her head.  It was about being able to think how it all went together, not about the numbers or doing math.  She used numbers to figure but had she not understood the other stuff, number-working wouldn't have helped much.

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

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Jan 9, 2009, 3:24:35 PM1/9/09
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>> I sent what I had written to Keith, who was at work at his
>> engineering desk. The quotes are me and the other is Keith Dodd
>> who knows how to do knotwork like this:
http://sandradodd.com/knotwork

>> I designed and made the frame for that tent, too, with a rattan pole,
>> some 1x4 lumber, rope, four blocks of wood for tensioners, four bolts
>> with wingnuts and four string loops. Four tent takes. And there was
>> "the egyptian way" to find where to put the tent stakes before the
>> tent went up, because if two of the pieces of the wood frame that
>> hung where the roof met the sides were sit in an L from the center
>> point, and then turned every direction, they touched the place where
>> the corner stake should be, because the proportion of the roof edge
>> to the ground was twice (or four or eight or whatever--it didn't
>> matter if I even knew), and two poles....

>> (I'll ask Keith to explain this. I use English and he uses numbers.)

Because the cloth width (A) determined the width of the 2 side
rectangles
and the base of the corners triangles, the length of the base of the
pyramid
(4A) was twice the length of the ridge line (2A). So the ridge poles
could
be used (in a right angle fashion) to measure the distance from the
center
point (where the pole stood) to where the stake needed to be , thus
defining
a square on the ground, symmetrical around the center point.

>> My point is that there are ways to use geometry without it being
>> written down and there are ways to write it down without having the
>> faintest clue what it might be actually used for in a real life
>> situation.

Everything described here can be modeled with abstract equations, or
paper.
It is fortunate that one need not fully understand the intricacies of
geometry before attempting origami.

Keith

Jenny

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Jan 9, 2009, 4:07:50 PM1/9/09
to UnschoolingDiscussion
> How old are your children?  My boy also learned the simplest forms of
> counting & calculting with no grief, because there was stuff he wanted
> to know the quantities & areas of, etc.  As you say, it's all around
> us!  This won't wash where algebra & more advanced geometry
> ("measuring the earth") are concerned, tho, unless the children are
> geniuses who see & understand it all instinctively.

My kids are 7 and 14.

If one of my kids wanted to find a measurement of the earth, they'd do
so and it would depend on wether you are talking about measuring
around the earth at the equater or the poles, or wether you are
measuring from one city to another which we do all the time on our big
wall map. You don't need to be a genius to figure out how to measure
the earth. I can look it up right this very instant on a google
search.

Algebra and geometry all can have real life applications. My older
daughter tends to use them in her sewing more than anything. Sewing
uses a lot of math skills.

Jenny

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Jan 9, 2009, 4:11:04 PM1/9/09
to UnschoolingDiscussion
> If a child is pressured to understand formal notation before they  
> have an interest that will pull the notation in and match it up with  
> life, it can interfere with their understanding of life and of the  
> notation. I'm sure there are loads of schooled kids whose brains shut  
> down when they see percentage in real life just because they were  
> marched through formal problems before they had reason to care what a  
> percent was.

My brain sometimes freezes when I try to figure out which item is the
better deal at a store and I was "good" at math in school. Chamille
just figures it out, like the snap of a finger. I'm not sure of what
process goes on in her head, but clearly, that's practical math being
used, and it does involve algebraic thinking.

Jenny

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Jan 9, 2009, 4:31:23 PM1/9/09
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> Everything described here can be modeled with abstract equations, or  
> paper.
> It is fortunate that one need not fully understand the intricacies of
> geometry before attempting origami.

The very best instruction for origami, is to be very exact in your
folding and hope the original paper is a perfect square!

Jenny

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Jan 9, 2009, 4:39:21 PM1/9/09
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 My boy also learned the simplest forms of
> counting & calculting with no grief, because there was stuff he wanted
> to know the quantities & areas of, etc.  As you say, it's all around
> us!  This won't wash where algebra & more advanced geometry
> ("measuring the earth") are concerned,

If a child really wants to have a deeper understanding of math, they
WILL search it out and breathe it in. It doesn't have to be forced
and it doesn't have to be done with a textbook. My experience with an
always unschooled teen, is that books tend to be the last resource
sought after. Hands on, asking others, internet, all are sought after
first. If the answer she is looking for hasn't been found with the
first three resources, she may pick up a book, but this has yet to
happen, simply because she hasn't needed to.

>unless the children are
>geniuses who see & understand it all instinctively.

All children are geniuses who understand things instinctively! Some
kids are geniuses in the ways that schools think are best and some
aren't defined by that. Picking up algebra and more advanced geometry
doesn't make a child a genius, nor does it require genius.

Jenny

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Jan 9, 2009, 4:46:51 PM1/9/09
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You don't need to be a genius to figure out how to measure
> the earth.  I can look it up right this very instant on a google
> search.
>

Just assuming we're talking about measuring the circumference, I did
google it and here's a very low tech way for someone to measure the
earth, if they were so interested to do so....
http://www.physics2005.org/projects/eratosthenes/index.html

Lyla Wolfenstein

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Jan 9, 2009, 4:16:27 PM1/9/09
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yeah, my son could figure out stuff like that (fractions, percentages, etc.) when he was 4-5, BEFORE his
love of math and *relationship* with math was *ruined*  - at least
temporarily - by school.  even school that used "real life, hands on, open
ended, exploration" type approaches to math.



AND

i posted an (albeit long) article called "lockharts lament" the other day
and i am wondering, mrs. mouse, or whomever else is doubting the unschooling
process for math, if you so much as skimmed it.  in addition, the other
article i posted, by alfie kohn, presents research that shows that teaching
method not only doesn't help kids' understanding of math (real
understanding) but UNDERMINES it - thus the title "education's rotten apple"
warmly, Lyla

k

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Jan 10, 2009, 1:05:14 AM1/10/09
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I really enjoyed those two articles you posted, Lyla, and got a lot out of them.  I'd not read either one of them before in all the years I've been reading online about unschooling.  They're really good ones.

I do think if one leaves math alone for a long while, it's possible to recover a curiosity about it and to regain a relationship with the world that numbers inhabit.  I was happy to find out that the pie graph approach to solving a problem actually worked for me now that I'm in my 40s.  Granted it's simple but I remember anything using pies baffled the heck out of me in school.  Forget about it.  So there I was reading John Holt's How Children Fail and his example was having children solve for 1/3 + 1/2.  And no I didn't change denominators or use a formula or anything like that, though I technically sort of know how (but not unless I think *really* hard about it and then I'm not exactly confident about getting the right answer).  So instead I used the pie as a way to picture the parts and actually came up with right answer the first time easily and I knew it was right without checking, although I used the inches on a ruler approach and of course the answer is the same either way. 

Guys, I'm the art major, so number stuff has been my majorly foreign discombobulator, the boogeyman in the horrendous school closet.   Right next to science.  *choke*  But now all of those things no longer sit next to each other in the dark but dance around in plain daylight, intermingled and connected, and it's so fun to know them all.  It's been part of my unschooling journey to renew what the hackneyed school approach killed all those years ago.  Very very freeing.

We just got a flat screen tv and watched Hook again.  The theme of Hook (such an unschooly movie) was very much like the quote I can sorta remember from watching I.Q. (Tim Robbins and Meg Ryan): that we have a compass to help us stay on course and it will help us to keep our wonder.  To find our way, just believe that we can.

~Katherine

Mrs. Mouse

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Jan 11, 2009, 7:41:40 PM1/11/09
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Well, Sandra, what you say about music is very true. I can recall
being forced to learn musical notation in school and I hated it,
though I wanted to play a musical instrument. I played the instrument
(accordion) with no instruction whatsoever, plus I had forgotten every
bit of music notation I "had" to learn in school! (For what that is
worth.)

I do tend to think, tho, that like lots of things, some people are
more intrinsically "mathematical" in their thinking right from birth,
than other people. Like mechanical ability. My son has mechanical
ability/aptitude that nobody taught him and he applied his own
understanding of math to it. At the point in his life (very young)
when he began showing mechanical ability (repairing and building
things, quite spontaneously) all he knew of arithmetic was the most
basic counting & calculation.

Joyce Fetteroll

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Jan 12, 2009, 8:43:19 AM1/12/09
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On Jan 11, 2009, at 7:41 PM, Mrs. Mouse wrote:

I do tend to think, tho, that like lots of things, some people are

more intrinsically "mathematical" in their thinking right from birth,

than other people.


I wouldn't even put mathematical in quotes.

There are math genes and word genes and artistic genes and musical genes. (Multiple Intelligences pretty much covers that idea.) Not even unschooling and learning from life will make an artistic person a math genius.

But kids can learn what they need to by exploring their interests because they'll be *using* the math they'll need. An artist will learn the type of math and the approach to math they need by exploring art. A mechanically inclined person will learn the math they need. Their math will look different but it will be what they need to understand what they enjoy.

Joyce

chrisa...@380com.net

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Jan 12, 2009, 8:24:58 AM1/12/09
to UnschoolingDiscussion
<<Pressing people to do/memorize/"teach themselves" notation when they
don't have a clue what it is they're "notating" can prevent them from
EVER understanding it at all.>>

Not only that, but pressing people who DO have a clue can do damage,
too.

My husband is an "intuitive" math person. He can divide fractions in
his head, he understands "advanced" math with no formal training, and
he does it in some way other than the methods taught in school and
textbooks--which he can't explain.

When he was in school he would be accused of cheating because his math
and algebra tests had the correct answers but no "work" (formulas
written out and numbers carried and things scribbled out and so on--
you know, "show your work"-work).

So for each new teacher he would be called out in class as a cheater,
made to stay after and retake another test, because there was "no way"
he could have gotten the correct answers without doing the notation
that was being taught. He would retake the test in front of the
teacher, do the "work" in his head, get the right answers and though
they would generally accept this, they would still tell him that he
"really needed to show his work" on the tests. So he started writing
down a bunch of numbers and scribbles and nonsense to appease these
math teachers who were so sure that a kid couldn't do their subject
matter without their almighty notation.

In his case, being pressed to used the notation didn't prevent him
from understanding math concepts, but it did prevent him from
understanding why on earth one would need to attend school when the
teachers were clearly not even up to speed with the pupils they were
instructing, yet so sure that they had all the knowledge and answers
to hand down.

Yours,
Betsy
Sam 7 & Eli 3.5

Pamela Sorooshian

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Jan 12, 2009, 4:39:41 PM1/12/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com

On Jan 12, 2009, at 5:43 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:


I do tend to think, tho, that like lots of things, some people are
more intrinsically "mathematical" in their thinking right from birth,
than other people.


Just because Mozart was a child prodigy doesn't mean the rest of us are not "musical." Same with math - just because there are people who pick it up especially young doesn't mean the rest of us can't learn naturally and easily.

-pam

Geneva Goza

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Jan 13, 2009, 1:33:17 AM1/13/09
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com

Ive had it all pierced…some scar more than others.

I advise against any home piercing…do some research with the children and seek out the best, even if there is travel involved, it is well worth the wait to get the job done right.

 

My first “body” piercing was done with a gun (advise against that too) at Lalapalooza of all places!!!

I did have some trouble with infection on that one, but I don’t think it had to do with the place/person who did it and like Schuyler, I just have a small barely noticeable hole…nostril.

Many years later, I got a septum piercing from one of the best in the country.  I have not worn jewelry there in at least 5 years, and I still have some trouble with the scar from time to time.  Not sure why.

 

I think lots of teens see piercing as quick and easy like a haircut – and it can be – but I feel that it is something that could require follow up care and can leave permanent mark…sometimes more unsightly than a bad tattoo, so it should be taken very seriously.  I am all for piercing whatever ya got, but I know now that it is a bigger deal than I thought it was as a teen/20 something.

 

My almost 8 yo has been looking at videos on you tube on the subject – lots to see that’s for sure.  He isn’t interested in doing anything now, but has been intrigued and amazed.  Just a way to learn more.

 

Good luck.

Geneva in Dallas

 

From: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Schuyler Waynforth
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 3:03 AM
To: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Piercings

 

I pierced my nose with a safety pin when I was 19. It took a bit of deep breathing. I wouldn't recommend that approach. It didn't get infected, it wasn't a problem, and when I was done with it, when the babies I was babysitting were too interested in playing with my nose ring, I took it out. I still have a small hole where the piercing was, it just looks like a large pore, and you'd have to get really close to notice it.

Schuyler

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 1:36 AM, nellebelle <nelle...@charter.net> wrote:

Looking for feedback on children getting body piercing, specifally naval and nose.

 

Mary Ellen

 

 

 



Mimi V

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Jan 30, 2009, 6:02:32 AM1/30/09
to UnschoolingDiscussion
There are a few things to consider when looking for a good body
piercer. be sure not to go to one of those mall shops with the
piercing gun, piercing guns cannot be sterilized and can cause scar
tissue and transmit hard bodied viruses(like Hep a,b,and c) from
person to person.

So in Washington, they will need proof of birth and a legal guardian
present at time of piercing, You will want to go to a studio that uses
single use 16 gauge needles that have been sterilized in an autoclave.
For the jewelery you will want something simple, the best is 24 k
gold, but bone implant grade stainless surgical steel will do.
most piercers will not use jewelery you get elsewhere, the stuff at
hot topic is bad, made out of cheap materials and usually gauged
wrong.

Piercing a minor without consent is a misdemeanor and many spots can't
be done until the teen years.

I recommend using a 14 gauge, 1/2 inch curved barbell called a
"banana bell" to heal a navel piercing (without a jewel), it is a
pretty comfortable piercing to get , but can be tricky to heal, low
slung pants are a must, as any rubbing can cause irritation and
rejection of the piercing. It is important to consider whether this is
doable with the shape of the belly and style of dress.It is normal for
this one to take months to heal.

For the nose piercing, you really should use a captive bead ring for
the healing period, gold or surgical steel. Most people who get the
nose pierced want to wear dainty nose screws, but they tend to fall
out while sleeping and can cause scarring to put back in, so get a 16
or 14 gauge captive bead ring and let it heal for 6 to ten weeks and
then go back to the studio and they will change it to a nose screw and
autoclave your ring and return it to you.

Piercing is still unregulated in Washington state, so be sure to check
your piercer's credentials with the Alliance of Professional Piercers
or OSHA. If you are near Coure d'Alene Idaho, I would refer you to
Colleen Smith of "Triple A Inkworld" I don't have her phone # handy,
but she is the only person I know in the area who is clean enough that
I would go to her.
If you have any more questions, call me at my shop http://www.ConstantCreationsTattoo.com
~Charissa
Also, she is a cool mom who cares, so if she isn't close enough, she
could give you a recommendation.
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