The first jQuery plugin

[Morris Gray]

I'm wondering if the first jQuery plugin since jQuery was implemented
into the TiddlyWiki core isn't worth someone acknowledging?

I did implement it into a TiddlyWiki but ask nothing for myself since
its existence was easy for me to do, as it would have been for anyone,
and I have been a devils advocate of it, but grasped its potential and
have been converted.

But the generation of the very first practical jQuery plugin, as
amateurish as it may or may not be, is historical.

MarkS is not a usual developer but made the attempt because he wanted
it himself and was intrigued by the possibilities as we all have been
form time to time/

What happened to the praise, acknowledgment and encouragement that
made TiddlyWiki what it is? Has the divide between developers and the
end users, which are the only thing that really matters, become so
great that they can't even be bothered to at least acknowledge a new
innovation?

Mark deserves praise and encouragement from the ones who had the
foresight to implement jQuery in the first place. Why haven't they at
least seen this as a vindication of their decision and acknowledged it
publicly?

Is not the ultimate goal of all of the developer's efforts not to the
benefit of the end user ? Then why not acknowledge it when it occurs
from someone who may be outside of it?

What happened to the comradery and generosity?

Why not give credit where credit is due? The silence is cruel.

Morris

[Alex Hough]

Morris,

It is indeed a cool plugin

I think there is a few others which might be the first JQuery Plugins
though. VisioWiki has some. TiddlyDocs has a JQuery tree menu. FND's
awesome idea of quake like navigation the ViPlugin and also his
listNav menu uses use of jQuery.

The tag tree plugin is good, but it requires external files. For me
this is very important. It will always be an 'outsider' in my book if
I have to start making folders with files in them. (I was under the
impression that it is in development to this end.)

I'm a user not a developer. I think that your observation is not right
about a drift between developers and users. On my recent trip to visit
the Osmoplex people, I was treated like a royal visitor. To say that
they are not respecfull of end users is unfair and not consistent with
my experience.

Alex

2009/6/9 Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au>:

--
http://www.multiurl.com/g/64

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Jun 9, 9:30 am, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> I'm wondering if the first jQuery plugin since jQuery was implemented
> into the TiddlyWiki core isn't worth someone acknowledging?

[snip]

> What happened to the comradery and generosity?
>
> Why not give credit where credit is due? The silence is cruel.

One of the things that is most interesting about open source projects
is that anyone can take up the banner to do pretty much anything: any
member of the community can test, praise, report bugs, give credit,
write code, critique, write docs, etc. They just have to step up and
do it. The member of the community can be new or a long time
confederate, they can be young or old, they can know the technical
depths of the project or simply be enthusiastic.

One of the things that is rather interesting about TiddlyWiki is that
the lines between content, data and code are very blurred. A plugin is
all three. Anyone can use, revise, create a plugin.

One of the things is most interesting about TiddlyWiki is that because
of the above blurred lines, the divisions between developer and user
are similarly blurred. In some sense everyone who uses TiddlyWiki is a
developer, a tester, a user and a critic. Different aspects come out
at different times and to different degrees.

That's background for this:

All the members of the TiddlyWiki community are responsible for making
sure that everyone gets the praise or criticism they warrant. There
seems to be an expectation, increasingly so in the last two years,
that there is some core, in a ivory tower, that does most of the work
and makes most of the decisions.

The reason this happens is because people allow it, and encourage it.
On the one hand I applaud you, Morris, for pointing out that someone's
plugin needs to be celebrated. Indeed it does. On the other hand, I'm
disappointed that you are perpetuating the notion that there is a
someone else, an other, which should be doing the celebrating. There
isn't. There is only the whole community.

Whatever classes that people perceive to exist in the community are
there because people on all sides are feeding them through action and
inaction.

There could be a lot more to say here, but I think that's enough for
now so let's just sum it up: TiddlyWiki is awesome because of _all_
the people involved and the involvement of all the people. It takes
effort by everyone to ensure that involvement.

[Morris Gray]

On Jun 9, 6:52 pm, Alex Hough <r.a.ho...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> The tag tree plugin is good, but it requires external files. For me
> this is very important. It will always be an 'outsider' in my book if
> I have to start making folders with files in them. (I was under the

> impression that it is in development to this end.).

You are out of date. This is not true if you look at http://twt-treeview.tiddlyspot.com/
You will find there are no external files except those to replace
embedded images that IE does not recognize. It works in IE (with help
as stated) Firefox, Chrome and Opera even in its early stage. Many
plugins at this stage have not. Nevertheless that is nitpicking and
distracts from the general theme of the issue.

> I'm a user not a developer. I think that your observation is not right
> about a drift between developers and users. On my recent trip to visit
> the Osmoplex people, I was treated like a royal visitor. To say that
> they are not respecfull of end users is unfair and not consistent with
> my experience.

I did not say they were disrespectful only dismissive by ignoring an
historical event and an early achievement. Besides your personal
treatment as a visitor has nothing to do with my observations. The
global nature of TiddlyWiki should not require a personal visit for an
acknowledgment of achievement, it never has before.

Whether the Treeview plugin is the absolute first plugin using jQuery
or not it is the first of general interest and usability to the larger
community filling a need and want and should have been at least
acknowledged. It is a good example of what end users could expect
from the far reaching changes jQuery might bring and one would think
it would be acknowledged and encouraged.

I have only asked what is fair and proper. Then again I am not the
most loved person here since I say what I think, right or wrong. But
that should not matter to fair minded people who should welcome debate
wherever and from whomever it may come. Dedication to code and
development is only a means to an end, and that end is people, who are
human, with all of the needs humans have, recognition is one of them
and it costs nothing to give. That's all I am saying.

Your defense of others is welcome, at least you spoke up with your
opinion. And while it didn't agree with mine at least you weren't
silent.

If I am wrong in wanting something that is fair and proper for someone
else then I am content in being wrong.

Morris

[Alex Hough]

Hey Morris,

>Then again I am not the most loved person here since I say what I think, right or wrong.

I think you are highly loved!

--
http://www.multiurl.com/g/64

[FND]

> I'm wondering if the first jQuery plugin since jQuery was implemented
> into the TiddlyWiki core isn't worth someone acknowledging?

In line with what Chris has already said, I feel Treeview was being
acclaimed by the community.

> You are out of date.

Perhaps this is part of the problem (if there is one); if I remember
correctly, the development progress was discussed in several fairly
lengthy threads, which made the breakthroughs not very visible.

> Morris [...] I think you are highly loved!

Indeed, the TiddlyWiki community would be poorer without you.
While I might not always agree with your opinion or attitude, the
discourse is no doubt valuable.

-- F.

[Martin Budden]

Morris,

like Chris, I don't like to distinguish between users and developers
in a software community. This is particularly true with TiddlyWiki
where the division between user and developer is especially blurred.

I'm very pleased that MarkS is developing a plugin using jQuery, and
that he is getting help and encouragement from the community. I didn't
feel any need to praise his efforts, since there was/is quite a
conversation going on around the work he is doing.

Perhaps that was remiss of me. If so then I apologise.

Martin

2009/6/9 FND <FN...@gmx.net>:

[Morris Gray]

On Jun 10, 4:59 am, Martin Budden <mjbud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> like Chris, I don't like to distinguish between users and developers
> in a software community. This is particularly true with TiddlyWiki
> where the division between user and developer is especially blurred.

Martin,

I agree with you and Chris in general that it should be up to
individuals whatever their label might be to express their own
opinions. I am normally reserved in this respect as well, and as an
employer have been taken to task for many times for not being free
enough with praise, so I have been made aware of this shortcoming.
Perhaps now I may be too particularly aware of this need in people in
my old age.

However I felt the need to speak up in this instance because I thought
it was a historical moment. Coming so soon after the implementation
of jQuery into the core it was at least pleasantly surprising.

I felt that those that argued for the jQuery inclusion would
acknowledge it, not necessarily for Mark alone but as encouragement
for others to attempt jQuery applications.as well. It is a partial
vindication for the decision to include it in the core as well and is
a notable event.

Whether there is a divide between developers and users is a moot
point. It is a fact that there are decisions made that are not known
by users until it is offered to them as a fait accompli. The
reasonably firm enforcement of sending anything that looks like a
developers discussion to the developers group helps reinforce the
apparent separation. While the reason to do so is meant to not clog
the users group with developer talk it has the side effect of
depriving the group of a lot of inclusiveness, insight and the
knowledge they might gain simply by osmosis.

I was very involved with the Treeview development nearly around the
clock doing testing to help Mark speed his development and to find
bugs that could only be found by trying it in an actual
implementation. I did fear at any moment we might be chased off the
users group but fortunately it didn't happen. Because it was
interesting and exciting many users delighted in seeing a development
in real time. And it encouraged Mark with the attention and interest
shown and I think it was done in a remarkably shorter time than it
would have had he been laboring alone in silence.

Perhaps I was too close to it and felt unreasonably his achievement
should have been acknowledged by those who made the decision to
include jQuery in the core to make it possible.

Nevertheless this may be a good time to see if a gap between groups
is, or could be developing and nip it in the bud. TiddlyWiki is
changing from what it was in the early days when there were many more
developers populating the users group. History has shown that as an
organization grows divides naturally develop in spite of the common
misconception that it is homogeneous.

Even in a volunteer group, such as this, good public relations between
levels does need to be looked at from time to time; and in my
experience will not naturally develop unless someone sets themselves
the task to ensure that a 'them and us' attitude situation doesn't
develop.

In some ways I suppose that was actually the point I was trying to
make. The women in my office would say that the group needs a woman's
touch ;-) to remind the boys there is more to this than the gears and
wheels.

Thanks, Martin, for your input to this discussion and showing you
understand in some way why this came up in the first place. I hope
that my sticking my neck out like this hasn't been too disruptive and
some good may come of it.

Morris

On Jun 10, 4:59 am, Martin Budden <mjbud...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Morris,
>
> like Chris, I don't like to distinguish between users and developers
> in a software community. This is particularly  true with TiddlyWiki
> where the division between user and developer is especially blurred.
>
> I'm very pleased that MarkS is developing a plugin using jQuery, and
> that he is getting help and encouragement from the community. I didn't
> feel any need to praise his efforts, since there was/is quite a
> conversation going on around the work he is doing.
>
> Perhaps that was remiss of me. If so then I apologise.
>
> Martin
>

> 2009/6/9 FND <F...@gmx.net>:

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Jun 10, 12:55 am, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> Whether there is a divide between developers and users is a moot
> point.  It is a fact that there are decisions made that are not known
> by users until it is offered to them as a fait accompli.  The
> reasonably firm enforcement of sending anything that looks like a
> developers discussion to the developers group helps reinforce the
> apparent separation. While the reason to do so is meant to not clog
> the users group with developer talk it has the side effect of
> depriving the group of a lot of inclusiveness, insight and the
> knowledge they might gain simply by osmosis.

Yes.

(I don't really have anything to add, but I wanted to acknowledge the
above.)

[Martin Budden]

Interesting. Perhaps there is an argument for combining the two groups
into a single group?

Martin

2009/6/11 cd...@peermore.com <chris...@gmail.com>:

[Paul Downey]

On 11 Jun 2009, at 14:40, Martin Budden wrote:

>
> Interesting. Perhaps there is an argument for combining the two groups
> into a single group?

I manage to occasionally sip from the firehose that is TiddlyWiki
group, but read every message sent to TiddlyWikiDev. There is value in
having two separate groups.

Paul (psd)
--
http://blog.whatfettle.com

[Alex Hough]

I read both.

I have to say that the learning I have acquired from posting to TW has
been really valuable. Part of a TW fan's development is to how to ask
for and respond to help.

Now as I try to organise work in another group, i realise how much I
have picked up by osmosis.

Please keep two groups.

Alex

2009/6/11 Paul Downey <paul.s...@gmail.com>:

--
http://www.multiurl.com/g/64