Developer's guide

[olosvk]

After a year I went back to my little amount of code, a trial for
creating my own (TW) plugin. Lack of free time is the cause for a year
passing by doing nothing. I forgot almost everything I've read about
javascript (just to make this one plugin). Hmm..., starting again to
look at plugins written by others (tiddlywiki.org is still too poor)
to reverse engineer what I need and spending hours with guessing
and...? But wait, I remembered Eric Shulman mentioning such a guide, a
book. Where is it? After a bit searching I found :
http://groups.google.com/group/TiddlyWiki/browse_thread/thread/e156c75c63cd4989/d146c7034263e015?lnk=st&q=book#d146c7034263e015

Then here, of course: http://www.tiddlytools.com/#FAQ_Developer%27sGuide

I chose this option (a post, not a private email), because I'd not
just love to hear its status, but to "force" Eric to publish the
guide. I hope that it is still alive, not forgotten, abandoned by many
(core) changes since 22.12.2006 (based on created and modified tiddler
dates) and (maybe?) small demand on the market. I think there are
enough people. It would be a great help for all of us a we should
encourage Eric. Who is with me ?

When can I buy the book ? :D

[wolfgang]

> I hope that it is still alive, not forgotten, abandoned by many
> (core) changes since 22.12.2006 (based on created and modified tiddler
> dates) and (maybe?) small demand on the market. I think there are
> enough people.
>

Thinking about this, this is really a bad predicament: considering
that during it's 3 years life about 1000 unique systemConfig tagged
tiddlers were created by only about 100 developers!

So how many would be there who would buy such a TiddlyWiki developers
guide seriously? 200, maybe even 1000? Given the speed of development,
wouldn't it already be outdated by the time it gets published?

Hmm... that's a really difficult situation. Nevertheless, I'm with you
olosvk :-)

Regards,

W..

[FND]

N.B.:
Coding-related questions should be discussed on the developers group:
http://groups.google.com/group/TiddlyWikiDev/

> "force" Eric to publish the guide

I think we can all relate to the lack of comprehensive reference
documentation for the TiddlyWiki core.
However, creating such a guide is no small feat - it's certainly not
something one can churn out in a weekend or two...

Having said that, Mike has done a great job of describing his recent
quest to learn about the TiddlyWiki internals:
http://softwareas.com/tag/tiddlywiki

> tiddlywiki.org is still too poor

A wiki is what the community makes of it...

-- F.

[mahemoff]

> I think we can all relate to the lack of comprehensive reference
> documentation for the TiddlyWiki core.
> However, creating such a guide is no small feat - it's certainly not
> something one can churn out in a weekend or two...
>

Having recently got started with TiddlyWiki plugin/vertical
development, I agree there is a need for something like this.

> Having said that, Mike has done a great job of describing his recent
> quest to learn about the TiddlyWiki internals:
>      http://softwareas.com/tag/tiddlywiki
>

Thanks for pointing it out. The most recent TiddlyWiki post
http://softwareas.com/reflections-from-a-tiddlywiki-tiddler-and-thoughts-on-a-guide-for-web-app-development-with-tiddlywiki
(aka http://is.gd/2VPN) is very much a first attempt at such a guide.
I would like to expand it out into a wiki, probably on tiddlywiki.org,
if there's interest. I'd be happy to kick it off, but I've parked my
own contributions to it for now, until I'm familiar enough with it all.

[olosvk]

>N.B.:
>Coding-related questions should be discussed on the developers group:
> http://groups.google.com/group/TiddlyWikiDev/

FND, you probably misunderstood my reasons or maybe you disagree....
Did you read Eric's post ? He was the one, giving informations on his
planned book in this group, not in the dev. As you can see, actually I
didn't ask anything code related. At least not directly.

>However, creating such a guide is no small feat - it's certainly not
>something one can churn out in a weekend or two...

Eric's post is from 7.2.2007, saying that he is already working on it
and that it will be released after several months!

>A wiki is what the community makes of it...

Yes, but I can't change it. Just people developing TW. Considering
tiddlytools, its plugins, scripts (still up to date)...and Eric's
"pedagogical" talent explaining user/developer issues, supporting this
community makes him the onlyone, or the right one. I can not imagine
anyone else writing this guide. It would be step by step guide, as a
book should be, so I don't think that just developers would benefit
from it. And sorry, the dev group doesn't have "fast" responses if
any. It would by wasting your time, because you shouldn't teach me
javascript. Reading Eric's guide would give me the chance to clearly
distinguish html/javascript and TW core functions (with examples),
what can and what can't be done and how. I think, you must see the
benefits too. Most time consuming basic code related problems
shouldn't be your burden.

To wolfgang :

200?1000? I don't know, maybe that is the reason why(if) it was
abandoned ? The core doesn't change that fast, look at the roadmap and
changes. My post could raise the demand for this guide and maybe...

[wolfgang]

> 200?1000? I don't know, maybe that is the reason why(if) it was
> abandoned ?
>

Certainly. Beside, writing a book does take much time.

We non-developer, if we are keen on a 'developer guide' are left with
only the following 2 strategies:

#1) Give Eric not a single opportunity to answer simple end user
questions here anymore.
So he starts to feel bored and works instead on the book more
consistently.

But you named the difficulty with that yourself:

> After a year I went back to my little amount of code, a trial for
> creating my own (TW) plugin. Lack of free time is the cause for a year
> passing by doing nothing.
>

(though I myself follow this strategy more because then much more
amazing plugins, as for example a also announced
TableInlineEditingPlugin, could be developed by him - much better
quality too than I could ever come up with if I started learning
JavaScript myself now)

#2) As you noted, Eric's posts here are already of a very high
pedagogical value. So if someone with much free time would collect all
of them in one place, sort and edit repetitions a bit - that would
already give a sketch of a 'TiddlyWiki Javascript Guide'. And - in
this way presented to Eric - would certainly spurn him to fill out the
gaps.

Problem with this again: lack of someone with much time.

But with concerted effort we should be able to make Eric feel a bid
more bored with strategy no 1.

Cheers,

W.

[Alex Hough]

"#2) As you noted, Eric's posts here are already of a very high
pedagogical value. So if someone with much free time would collect all
of them in one place, sort and edit repetitions a bit - that would
already give a sketch of a 'TiddlyWiki Javascript Guide'. And - in
this way presented to Eric - would certainly spurn him to fill out the
gaps."

This is a good idea.
Perhap there could be a particular time of the week where community
member could focus on kind of activity.
Such a time would also double up as a time to learn about the bit that
was being worked on

ALex

2008/10/1 wolfgang <wolfga...@gmail.com>:

--
t: 0161 442 2202
m: 0781 372 50 17
Vote for me: http://tinyurl.com/5ukadj

[FND]

> "#2) As you noted, Eric's posts here are already of a very high
> pedagogical value. So if someone with much free time would collect all
> of them in one place, sort and edit repetitions a bit - that would
> already give a sketch of a 'TiddlyWiki Javascript Guide'.

Having done this over the last few months (mainly for end-user issues
though), from my experience it's much less painful to add things to the
wiki as they come up, rather than browsing the archives for material.
However, that's up to each individual, of course - and any contributions
would be very welcome.

-- F.

[olosvk]

> Certainly. Beside, writing a book does take much time.

Yeah, but he already wrote something. The questinon is, if he can just
continue, or start again.

> We non-developer, if we are keen on a 'developer guide' are left with
> only the following 2 strategies:

You are a teacher, I think. Even I'm not paid for coding (and can't do
it - for now), I need it for myself, my personal stuff, but I'm a team
member involved in a SW project development. I see the transfer of
user defined requirements thru implementation and back to the
customer. I participate almost in every step of this standard cycle. I
don't know if you have any experience beside this community, so my
point of view is a little bit different. I began asking questions, but
seeing how it changed between my post here and an answer from a
community member, it was just inefficient for neither of us. The
reason is, that trying to write code for some usecase brings you to
extend the usecase at every step (that is my case). On this forum, if
after a day, I would drasticaly change only a part of the requirement
(feature request) the developer would be in the mood to "kill" me. It
is not encouraging if you have to rewrite the same code again and
again. It is not exactly you first proposal :

> #1) Give Eric not a single opportunity to answer simple end user
> questions here anymore.
> So he starts to feel bored and works instead on the book more
> consistently.

but close to it.

> But you named the difficulty with that yourself:
>
> > After a year I went back to my little amount of code, a trial for
> > creating my own (TW) plugin. Lack of free time is the cause for a year
> > passing by doing nothing.

Yes, but the best (quickest) solution would be to pay for it (I don't
earn so much :D), for such support. But who would do it? I thnik that
people trying here to help won't take the money and it would end up in
big response times. And that is the problem.

> #2) As you noted, Eric's posts here are already of a very high
> pedagogical value. So if someone with much free time would collect all
> of them in one place, sort and edit repetitions a bit - that would
> already give a sketch of a 'TiddlyWiki Javascript Guide'. And - in
> this way presented to Eric - would certainly spurn him to fill out the
> gaps.
>
> Problem with this again: lack of someone with much time.

An appropriate term for constructing a book should be art. It leads
you again to Eric. You have to know both, javascript and TW core
funcitons on a high level, to be able to recognise what is important
and how to present it.

> But with concerted effort we should be able to make Eric feel a bid
> more bored with strategy no 1.

Yeah, but he isn't even responding to this thread (or threat ? :P).

[ccahua]

On Sep 29, 3:42 pm, olosvk <olo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...

> encourage Eric. Who is with me ?
>
> When can I buy the book ? :D

i'm with you!

Not to take away from the other wonderful community resources, wiki,
repository, etc, I think that a published book further adds to the
ecosystem of tiddlywiki, encouraging TW promotion and helps expand the
play/development to a wider audience for 'hello world' types like
myself.

There's other examples too- the Ubiquity folks have O'Reilly's ear on
a guide and another generous kind soul, Chris F.A. Johnson at
comp.unix.shell put out 'Shell Scripting Recipes' with Apress (imho
it's a gem)

So, I too look forward to Eric's book, "TiddlyTech: An Author's Guide
to TiddlyWiki"!

It would be a great way for me to contribute back to Eric for all that
he has generously offered.

His kindly help reminds me of the old skool internet before www when
things were less hectic and much joy could be had from anticipating
intelligent exchanges/threads in usenet, pine/listservs, irc, gopher,
etc. Sometimes, it was not so much fascination in the subject but
rather the intelligence of its exposition. That would be worth
booking.

Ah, nostalgia...

Plus I still like book technology, it works without batteries and
internet access. :-)

Best,
tony

[Amzg]

Collaborative book writing, especially for 'this' type of project -
maybe a solution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiT-L8TUy6Y

(the Connexions project)

/Mat

[Eric Shulman]

> Yeah, but he already wrote something. The questinon is, if he can just
> continue, or start again.

I've made several starts... and then got side tracked with questions
(both on group and by email), core upgrades/debugging/tweaks, cross-
browser testing (FireFox, IE, Safari, Opera, and now Chrome), new
plugin features, UnaMesa special projects, TiddlyWest and, of course,
simple maintenance and tuning of TiddlyTools.com itself.

> > #1) Give Eric not a single opportunity to answer simple end user
> > questions here anymore.
> > So he starts to feel bored and works instead on the book more
> > consistently.

But I really *like* answering questions... in fact, it's a whole lot
easier than trying to figure out what to write about... I just wait
for people to ask, and then I answer. This also has the advantage of
allowing me to address real-world use cases in my answers, rather than
making up some hypothetical example that may or may not actually match
what people really want to do.

> > #2) As you noted, Eric's posts here are already of a very high
> > pedagogical value. So if someone with much free time would collect all
> > of them in one place, sort and edit repetitions a bit - that would
> > already give a sketch of a 'TiddlyWiki Javascript Guide'. And - in
> > this way presented to Eric - would certainly spurn him to fill out the
> > gaps.

This is the basic strategy that I've been applying so far, although
somewhat inconsistently. When I give an answer online (or by email)
that I think is particularly good, I've been bcc-ing myself so that I
can collect those responses in a "How To" folder in my email app.

The idea is to use the TiddlyWiki 'non-linear writing' approach:
instead of trying to figure out a structure, just start in the middle
and write whatever comes to mind... then, when it starts to have
enough "critical mass" to take on a natural "shape", the refactor the
content to "tune and prune" the material for presentation.

> An appropriate term for constructing a book should be art. It leads
> you again to Eric. You have to know both, javascript and TW core
> funcitons on a high level, to be able to recognise what is important
> and how to present it.

I agree that, given the level of knowledge on several fronts that is
needed, I'm probably the most appropriate person to write the book,
and I really *do* want to put it together and get it out there for
people to use.

The problem, as I noted above, is that I've just had so many other
projects and ongoing efforts to keep me busy. I've also been dealing
with some chronic health problems (complications from Type II
Diabetes) that occupy a considerable amount of time as well as being
physically disabling at times.

Still, I'm not making excuses... and writing "the book" is rapidly
rising on my list of things to do. In fact, one very high-priority
project I am currently working on will actually help produce some good
materials for the book...

The UnaMesa Academy is a pilot program that will provide technology
training for social-sector service providers (health care, education,
etc.), using TiddlyWiki and other open source tools. As part of the
Academy program, I will be working directly with the trainees to give
them some basic instruction for customizing their TiddlyWiki
documents.

The first UnaMesa Academy sessions are currently scheduled to begin in
late October and it is my expectation that as a result of this
program, I should be able to create some really good, focused
presentation materials, as well as gathering some more real-world
examples, all of which may end up being re-used as part of "the book"
content.

> > But with concerted effort we should be able to make Eric feel a bid
> > more bored with strategy no 1.
> Yeah, but he isn't even responding to this thread (or threat ? :P).

Actually, I was really enjoying all the nice things people were saying
about me and I figured that once I responded, those good vibes might
taper off... ;-)

In any event, regardless of what people write or don't write about me,
once the Academy program is up and running, I intend to re-focus my
top-priority efforts on getting the book written as quickly as
possible.

In the mean time, please keep asking questions. It's one of the
things that I really like about working on TiddlyWiki... especially
when I'm not feeling too well. Being able to step outside myself for
a little while and focus on someone else's technical problems is a
very effective diversion from whatever physical struggles I'm facing
at the time.

thanks,
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios

P.S. Although I don't really think of money as a motivator, if you'd
like to help me pay my bills, please consider making a contribution
via PayPal:
http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#Donations

[wolfgang]

Hi Eric,

> I've made several starts... and then got side tracked ..
>

Good to hear that that you're still working on it!

> > > #1) Give Eric not a single opportunity to answer simple end user
> > > questions here anymore.
> > > So he starts to feel bored and works instead on the book more
> > > consistently.
>
> But I really *like* answering questions...
>

Ok, I try to keep myself back a little bid ;-)

> > > #2) As you noted, Eric's posts here are already of a very high
> > > pedagogical value. So if someone with much free time would collect all
> > > of them in one place, sort and edit repetitions a bit - that would
> > > already give a sketch of a 'TiddlyWiki Javascript Guide'. And - in
> > > this way presented to Eric - would certainly spurn him to fill out the
> > > gaps.
>
> This is the basic strategy that I've been applying so far, although
> somewhat inconsistently. When I give an answer online (or by email)
> that I think is particularly good, I've been bcc-ing myself so that I
> can collect those responses in a "How To" folder in my email app.
>

Great. I'm sure just importing those emails in a TiddlyWiki would
already make some good readings..

> The problem, as I noted above, is that I've just had so many other
> projects and ongoing efforts to keep me busy. I've also been dealing
> with some chronic health problems (complications from Type II
> Diabetes) that occupy a considerable amount of time as well as being
> physically disabling at times.
>

Sorry to hear about that. I hope your condition may improve again.

> In the mean time, please keep asking questions. It's one of the
> things that I really like about working on TiddlyWiki... especially
> when I'm not feeling too well. Being able to step outside myself for
> a little while and focus on someone else's technical problems is a
> very effective diversion from whatever physical struggles I'm facing
> at the time.
>

Ok, guys you heard what he said. Forget about my strategy number one
or two.

We only have to ask the right questions to give this book its shape!

Cheers,

W.

[olosvk]

> But I really *like* answering questions... in fact, it's a whole lot
> easier than trying to figure out what to write about... I just wait
> for people to ask, and then I answer. This also has the advantage of
> allowing me to address real-world use cases in my answers, rather than
> making up some hypothetical example that may or may not actually match
> what people really want to do.

Yes, but 1. is about changing that, so no more simple end-user
questions or feature requests and a guide would normalise it back.

> This is the basic strategy that I've been applying so far, although
> somewhat inconsistently. When I give an answer online (or by email)
> that I think is particularly good, I've been bcc-ing myself so that I
> can collect those responses in a "How To" folder in my email app.

What does "inconsistently" mean? Not always?

> I agree that, given the level of knowledge on several fronts that is
> needed, I'm probably the most appropriate person to write the book,
> and I really *do* want to put it together and get it out there for
> people to use.

Like I said, I want to cheer you up, to continue.

> The problem, as I noted above, is that I've just had so many other
> projects and ongoing efforts to keep me busy. I've also been dealing
> with some chronic health problems (complications from Type II
> Diabetes) that occupy a considerable amount of time as well as being
> physically disabling at times.

That is sad, I wish you only the best...(because I want that guide!
I'm just kidding ;) )

> Still, I'm not making excuses... and writing "the book" is rapidly
> rising on my list of things to do. In fact, one very high-priority
> project I am currently working on will actually help produce some good
> materials for the book...

Good news, like that, hmmm...

> The UnaMesa Academy is a pilot program that will provide technology
> training for social-sector service providers (health care, education,
> etc.), using TiddlyWiki and other open source tools. As part of the
> Academy program, I will be working directly with the trainees to give
> them some basic instruction for customizing their TiddlyWiki
> documents.

So there is maybe a market (big enough) or your "contract" with
Unamesa is what made the guide to survive (in hybernation? :) )

> The first UnaMesa Academy sessions are currently scheduled to begin in
> late October and it is my expectation that as a result of this
> program, I should be able to create some really good, focused
> presentation materials, as well as gathering some more real-world
> examples, all of which may end up being re-used as part of "the book"
> content.

Derivating from your comment, is it possible, that you'll have more
than a sketch before the end of this year?

> Actually, I was really enjoying all the nice things people were saying
> about me and I figured that once I responded, those good vibes might
> taper off... ;-)

That's the purpose of this thread :D.

> In any event, regardless of what people write or don't write about me,
> once the Academy program is up and running, I intend to re-focus my
> top-priority efforts on getting the book written as quickly as
> possible.

Will it be a classic book? And the options to buy it?

> P.S. Although I don't really think of money as a motivator, if you'd
> like to help me pay my bills, please consider making a contribution
> via PayPal:
> http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#Donations

+
>(ccahua:)

>It would be a great way for me to contribute back to Eric for all that
>he has generously offered.

I controlled this tiddler before starting "my" thread. It was my plan
to donate all along, but I needed a way to force you to publish the
guide. I don't earn egough to buy a coders time and I need to
understand it too (its pleasure for me too, or would be, with the
guide), so my standpoint is the same as ccahua.