alternate way to LoadTiddlers on startup?

[Dave Parker]

Hello,

I've been reading along the discussion [[ including external tiddlers
| http://groups.google.com/group/TiddlyWiki/browse_frm/thread/b602aa688c9fc2fa]],
half understanding,

and noticed this from Eric:

"put this in your
[[PageTemplate]:

<span style="display:none"
macro="loadTiddlers changes file:///path/to/master/file.html
confirm">
</span> "

to have an external TW load into another.

In my case I'd like to be able to load the MPTWLayoutPlugin which is
the replacement for the PageTemplate, so I can't have the LoadTiddler
macro there. Is there an alternate place to put the macro so I can
load that plugin (I know you can't Include a plugin, but not sure if
the same restriction is true with LoadTiddlersPlugin. I'm kind of
assuming you can't for the same reason as IncludeTiddlerPlugin, being
that any plugin has to be there **at** startup and by the time its
loaded, it can't really "be a plugin".)

Is the answer to start using a traditional PageTemplate (which has no
systemConfig tag)? If yes, I'm back to my original question: where
do I put the LoadTiddlers macro?

(the reason I'm asking is that I'm generating a fleet of "sub" TW
files and if I want to change the date syntax in newJournal I don't
want to have to import into all of them individually)

Thanks,
Dave Parker

[wolfgang]

Hi Dave,

TiddlyMasterPlugin - or MasterIncludesPlugin as it's named now - will
be the one plugin for exactly that reason, that IncludeTiddlers or
LoadTiddlers doesn't automatically load AND have them included as
functioning plugin without a 'save and reload' cycle.

Have a look here how far its been developed: (actually I use it
already all the time ;-)

http://fnd.lewcid.org/svn/TiddlyWiki/plugins/MasterIncludesPlugin/

Regards,

W.

Dave Parker schrieb:

[FND]

> MasterIncludesPlugin will be the one plugin

I appreciate the sentiment - but as stated before*, this might be a bit
of an exaggeration...

> Have a look here how far its been developed: (actually I use it
> already all the time ;-)

I'd consider it beta quality now. (I didn't know you were actively using
it already, Wolfgang... )
All the basic features are implemented, the major holdback right now
being documentation (that's the boring part, so it might drag on for a
bit... ).
However, the included samples (master.html and slave.html) should get
you started rather quickly, so feel free to give it a try.
I'd appreciate any feedback you might have.

-- F.

* http://tinyurl.com/2ebr76
(http://groups.google.com/group/TiddlyWiki/browse_thread/thread/b602aa688c9fc2fa/a5499237ab06252d?#a5499237ab06252d)

[Dave Parker]

thanks both of you - I didn't realize this was functional already, so
I'll give it a try

Good name change by the way, TMP just made me think "temporary",
whereas TIP just seems better

DP

ps. FND: I haven't forgotten that button thingie you were helping me
out with. I know you wanted feedback and then were going to delete
the file - I'll try to look at that this week sometime. Thanks again
for that

[Dave Parker]

make that "MIP" which still sounds better! :-)

[wolfgang]

Hi everyone,

> I'd consider it beta quality now. (I didn't know you were actively using
> it already, Wolfgang... )

Well, loalExternalv2.js was really beta.. and I used even that in lack
of any better 'fully' developed plugins.

> I'd appreciate any feedback you might have.

I liked the 'master' item of the former version more, because I could
look up the status of included files and systemConfigs at any time,
and not only during startup.

Additionally, the new 'master' item in the backstage bar is an
external link which doesn't open in a new window automatically, which
I think, is not a good idea. Since TW users aren't used to such
behaviour. And it might be really annoying if it the master is of many
MBs.

But overall, MasterIncludesPlugin became a really solid piece of work.
Thanks so much, FND.

W.

[wolfgang]

> I liked the 'master' item of the former version more, because I could
> look up the status of included files and systemConfigs at any time,
> and not only during startup.
>
> Additionally, the new 'master' item in the backstage bar is an
> external link which doesn't open in a new window automatically, which
> I think, is not a good idea. Since TW users aren't used to such

> behavior. And it might be really annoying if it the master is of many
> MBs.

Also, whenever I placed a single macro button into the backstage bar,
usually after using the backstage it doesn't close again. That could
be a compability problem with some other plugins. However, I just
stopped using single commands in the backstage bar, and use them in
dropdowns there instead.

And the same happens with the latest MasterIncludesPlugin version - in
my case anyway.

regards,

W.

[FND]

> I liked the 'master' item of the former version more, because I could
> look up the status of included files and systemConfigs at any time,
> and not only during startup.

I struggled with that decision for quite a while.
The shadow tiddler included in the backstage lead to quite some bloat,
and I saw no real value in it.

You can still display those logs by retrieving the contents of the
respective arrays (e.g. using the EvalMacro*).
I have updated the SVN repository; take a look at [[Log]] in slave.html.

> the new 'master' item in the backstage bar is an
> external link which doesn't open in a new window automatically, which
> I think, is not a good idea.

That was a conscious decision, actually. Changing this would be trivial,
but I hate when websites try to force such behavior on me (you can
always shift-click to open any link in a new tab/window - but not the
other way around).
On the other hand, it's not worth creating a config parameter/slice for,
so we should come to a satisfying solution here...

> But overall, MasterIncludesPlugin became a really solid piece of work.
> Thanks so much, FND.

There's no altruism in my work - it's all about my very own needs (and
my ego, of course)... ;)

-- F.

* http://devpad.tiddlyspot.com/#EvalMacro

[FND]

> You can still display those logs by retrieving the contents of the
> respective arrays (e.g. using the EvalMacro*).

I could create an optional MasterIncludesPluginLogsMacroModule (MIPLMM)
though. That might work like this then:
<<MasterIncludesLog [[Imported]]>>
Would that do the trick for you?

-- F.

PS: I'll look into your backstage issue tomorrow - could you send me a
sample file (zipped, if possible)?

[FND]

Sorry, one more, then I'm off to snoozeland...

> That might work like this then:
> <<MasterIncludesLog [[Imported]]>>

This would generate a simple list of tiddler names:
* [[foo]]
* [[bar]]
* [[baz]]
Or did you have something else in mind?

-- F.

[Dave Parker]

This stuff is way over my head - to many parts I don't know what to do
with...

I'll just wait until the documentation is done


Thanks for writing this, though, it sounds really useful.

Dave

[wolfgang]

> You can still display those logs by retrieving the contents of the
> respective arrays (e.g. using the EvalMacro*).

> I have updated the SVN repository; take a look at [[Log]] in slave.html.

Thanks, I think that will do.

> PS: I'll look into your backstage issue tomorrow - could you send me a
> sample file (zipped, if possible)?

Yes, is already late tonight. I was surprised that:

> !To Do
> * XHR: import master/tiddler files via HTTP

- was already gone from the MasterIncludesPlugin header. So I just
tried and uploaded it with the regular relative path in the
MarkupPostBody, which works on my local drive. However, not so on a
Server.

Also, my example TW which I used for this trial uses systemConfigs
with special characters. Though they show up when installed in the
master.html - but not after being drawn into the slave there?

I'll send it all zipped up.

Regards,

W.

[Eric Shulman]

> be the one plugin for exactly that reason, that IncludeTiddlers or
> LoadTiddlers doesn't automatically load AND have them included as
> functioning plugin without a 'save and reload' cycle.

well, that's easily solved...
http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#LoadTiddlersPlugin
has been updated (now v3.6.0) to incorporate an optional 'init' macro
param that lets you load plugins "on-the-fly" as soon as they are
imported, **without requiring a save-and-reload**. For example:
<<loadTiddlers changes masterfile.html init>>
causes any changed tiddlers from masterfile.html to be automatically
imported AND, if tagged with 'systemConfig', automatically invoked as
well. Note that, for safety/security, unless you specify the
'quiet' option in the macro, you are prompted to confirm each inbound
plugin before it is invoked.

Also note this plugin:
http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#RunTiddlerPlugin
which provides a tiddler toolbar command, 'run', that can be used to
invoke ANY tiddler content as if it was a plugin... without requiring
a save-and-reload cycle. Simply view the tiddler in question and
select 'run' from the toolbar. As with the new 'init' feature of
<<loadTiddlers>>, the run command also ask for confirmation before
invoking the plugin code.

With this small but powerful addition to LoadTiddlersPlugin, you
should now be able to create a single file with all your 'common'
plugins, and load them into your dependent documents 'on-the-fly' to
achieve the master/slave results you are after.

enjoy,
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios

[wolfgang]

Dave, its easier than it looks.

For a start you only need the MasterIncludesPlugin.js and 2 empty
TiddlyWikis. Best all in the same folder.
One TiddlyWiki will be the master.html which stores all the
systemConfig tiddlers - and which will be drown into the second, the
slave.html TW.

Once you have these three in a folder, some systemConfigs added and
tagged to the master.html - you open the slave.html and add the
following lines into the MarkupPostBody shadowed tiddler:
____________

<!--{{{-->
<script type="text/javascript" src="MasterIncludesPlugin.js"></script>
<!--}}}-->
____________

This will tell the slave TW where to look for the
MasterIncludesPlugin.

Now only one more following tiddler is needed in the slave before you
can 'save' and 'reload' - and then you can find all the systemConfig
of the master in the PluginManager of the slave - and ready to be
used:

Tiddler title: MasterIncludesConfig
______________

|''Title''|master|
|''MasterLocation''|master.html|
|''TiddlerFileLocations''||
|''ImportFilter''|[tag[systemConfig]]|
|''ExternalTags''|external excludeSearch|
|''ReportImported''|true|
|''ReportImportedFiles''|true|
|''ReportSkipped''|true|
|''ReportErrors''|true|
_______________

But if you download only these 3 files from:

http://fnd.lewcid.org/svn/TiddlyWiki/plugins/MasterIncludesPlugin/

You'll have a already running and working example.

Regards,

[wolfgang]

Wow.., Eric that's amazing. Thanks for this addition too.

> Sorry, one more, then I'm off to snoozeland...

Now me too..

[FND]

> Sorry, one more, then I'm off to snoozeland...

... or not:
http://tinyurl.com/34bgwy
(http://fnd.lewcid.org/svn/TiddlyWiki/plugins/MasterIncludesPlugin/MasterIncludesPluginLogMacro.js)

Will look into the backstage and XHR issues tomorrow. Or he day after
(that would be Thursday then... ).

-- F.

[Eric Shulman]

> Wow.., Eric that's amazing. Thanks for this addition too.

Note: In addition to reading from local TW documents, <<loadTiddlers>>
includes "XHR" processing for importing and initi-ing plugins from
remote URLs as well!!

Also, any tiddlers imported via <<loadTiddlers>> are automatically
logged in the [[ImportedTiddlers]] 'history', making it easier to keep
track of what what updated, from where, and when.

ref: http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#LoadTiddlersPlugin

[Dave Parker]

> > Wow.., Eric that's amazing. Thanks for this addition too.
>

I agree - thanks for doing this Eric. I look forward to trying this
out.

Wolfgang: Thanks for explaining that to me. Because I'm such a lazy
person I'm going to try Eric's method first ;-)

Eric: Please promise us that you'll never use your powers for
evil! :-)

DP

[Eric Shulman]

> Eric: Please promise us that you'll never use your powers for
> evil! :-)

"Hey Pinky, I suppose we should get ready for tomorrow night..."
"Why Brain, what are we doing tomorrow night?"
"Same thing we do every night, Pinky:
TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!

:-)
-e

"Hey Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking?"
"Yeah Brain, but how do we get the monkey to wear the lederhosen?"
"Narf!"

[FND]

> whenever I placed a single macro button into the backstage bar,
> usually after using the backstage it doesn't close again

I don't believe this has anything to do with MIP (*phew*... ).
It can't replicate this error in my test file (check out the latest
version of slave.html from SVN and take a look at BackstageBugTest). I
also don't use any complex or unusual code for adding the master button
to the backstage bar.
I did, however, notice this issue in the TiddlyDesktop file you've sent
me - so it probably has something to do with one of the numerous plugins
there. Haven't you ever noticed that before (I assume you've been using
a similar configuration for a while now)?

-- F.

[FND]

> I just tried and uploaded it with the regular relative path in the
> MarkupPostBody, which works on my local drive.

I had totally missed the "relative paths via HTTP" part when I first
read your response (in my defense, it was about 1 AM already... ).
That wasn't meant to be supported at that stage yet (okay, I had
forgotten about that possibility... ).
Anyway, I've done some tweaking, and it seems to work now. Could you run
some tests - preferably with both Windows- and *NIX-style path
separators ("\" and "/", respectively).

Also, the MasterIncludesLogMacro is now part of the plugin's core code.
I managed to shrink it to only a few lines of code, so it wasn't really
worth creating a separate module for anymore...

Since there are a few more fixes and various modifications, you should
probably re-download all of the files in that folder.

> Also, my example TW which I used for this trial uses systemConfigs
> with special characters. Though they show up when installed in the
> master.html - but not after being drawn into the slave there?

Sounds like an encoding issue. I'm not an expert on that, but I believe
JS always uses UTF-8 - maybe your server serves the files as ISO-8859-1,
leading to a mismatch?
Can you give me an example of such a special char (e.g. umlauts)?

-- F.

[wolfgang]

Hi F, thanks for the updates.

> I don't believe this has anything to do with MIP (*phew*... ).
> It can't replicate this error in my test file (check out the latest
> version of slave.html from SVN and take a look at BackstageBugTest). I
> also don't use any complex or unusual code for adding the master button
> to the backstage bar.
> I did, however, notice this issue in the TiddlyDesktop file you've sent
> me - so it probably has something to do with one of the numerous plugins
> there. Haven't you ever noticed that before (I assume you've been using
> a similar configuration for a while now)?

Indeed, I use an adapted version of BackstageTweaks by Eric. So the
first thing I tried was with the latest and original TiddlyTools TW.
And as soon as one opened any dropdown of the backstage, with MIP
installed, and for simplicity just placed into the whole of your
download MIP folder, it blocks it from completely closing.

Double checked it with your slave again, nothing altered, just opened
any of the original dropdown in the backstage - and again it too
doesn't close again. I mean the black backstagebar, not the dropdowns
there.

So it's not any other plugins, but MIP causing this.

Will do some server testing later.

> Sounds like an encoding issue. I'm not an expert on that, but I believe
> JS always uses UTF-8 - maybe your server serves the files as ISO-8859-1,
> leading to a mismatch?
> Can you give me an example of such a special char (e.g. umlauts)?

Actually, I used plain symbols for the closing, fold/unfold and jump
buttons of each tiddler in the file I send you and can be seen there.
And its functioning online with the older version: TiddlyMasterPlugin,
here:

http://vipa.3host.biz/TiddlyDesktop.html

thanks for your efforts,

W.

[wolfgang]

Hi again,

> I had totally missed the "relative paths via HTTP" part when I first
> read your response (in my defense, it was about 1 AM already... ).
> That wasn't meant to be supported at that stage yet (okay, I had
> forgotten about that possibility... ).
> Anyway, I've done some tweaking, and it seems to work now. Could you run
> some tests - preferably with both Windows- and *NIX-style path
> separators ("\" and "/", respectively).

Just tried it at the following location:
http://vipa.awardspace.com/tinytiddly.html

With this in the MarkupPostBody:
<script type="text/javascript" src="http://vipa.awardspace.com/
MasterIncludesPlugin.js"></script>

This way MasterIncludesConfig itself seems to be loaded, at least into
the backstage - but doesn't include anything nor presents any reports.

Tried the following variations in the MasterIncludesConfig tiddler,
but neither worked:

|''MasterLocation''|master.html|
|''MasterLocation''|http://vipa.awardspace.com/master.html|
|''MasterLocation''|http:\\vipa.awardspace.com\master.html|

What further possibilities are there to try?

W.

[RA]

Eric,

do I understand correctly that using the "init" feature I can load ALL
the plugins I'm using into a (vanilla TW + LoadTiddlersPlugin)? It
does not work for me for some reason. I get "(This plugin has not been
executed because it was added since startup)" for each one of them
when I go to backstage plugin manager.

RA.

On Jan 7, 4:15 pm, Eric Shulman <elsdes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > be the one plugin for exactly that reason, that IncludeTiddlers or
> > LoadTiddlers doesn't automatically load AND have them included as
> > functioning plugin without a 'save and reload' cycle.
>
> well, that's easily solved...
> http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#LoadTiddlersPlugin
> has been updated (now v3.6.0) to incorporate an optional 'init' macro
> param that lets you load plugins "on-the-fly" as soon as they are
> imported, **without requiring a save-and-reload**. For example:
> <<loadTiddlers changes masterfile.htmlinit>>
> causes any changed tiddlers from masterfile.html to be automatically
> imported AND, if tagged with 'systemConfig', automatically invoked as
> well. Note that, for safety/security, unless you specify the
> 'quiet' option in the macro, you are prompted to confirm each inbound
> plugin before it is invoked.
>
> Also note this plugin:
> http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#RunTiddlerPlugin
> which provides a tiddler toolbar command, 'run', that can be used to
> invoke ANY tiddler content as if it was a plugin... without requiring
> a save-and-reload cycle. Simply view the tiddler in question and
> select 'run' from the toolbar. As with the new 'init' feature of
> <<loadTiddlers>>, the run command also ask for confirmation before
> invoking the plugin code.
>

> With this small but powerful addition toLoadTiddlersPlugin, you

[wolfgang]

> ... Haven't you ever noticed that before (I assume you've been using

> a similar configuration for a while now)?

The first time I noticed this was when I tried to implement the advise
at:

http://www.tiddlywiki.org/wiki/Backstage#Customization

- about placing a search macro in the backstagebar.

Though at time I also thought it's something in my custom TW cousing
this error.
Now I'm quite sure it's this way of placing a single macro there.

W.

[FND]

This discussion is getting a little out of hand; let's not confuse
regular readers and move over to [twdev]:
http://groups.google.com/group/TiddlyWikiDev/t/38059541fb96f4b3

Just a quick note:

> |''MasterLocation''|http:\\vipa.awardspace.com\master.html|

I wasn't being clear about the Windows- vs. *NIX-style path separators;
these only pertain to relative paths* (e.g. "includes/master.html" or
"../TiddlyWiki/includes/master.html").
Absolute paths to online resources should always use the forward slash
(e.g. "http://foo.bar/master.html").

-- F.

* cf. http://www.tiddlywiki.org/wiki/Relative_Paths

[Eric Shulman]

> do I understand correctly that using the "init" feature I can load ALL
> the plugins I'm using into a (vanilla TW + LoadTiddlersPlugin)? It

Not exactly. Only *some* plugins can be loaded after TW startup...
specifically, a plugin that defines (or modifies) a "formatter" (a
wiki-syntax definition used by the wikify() parser to render tiddler
source) cannot be loaded after TW has started, because the 'wikifier'
'run-time' object has already been initialized; thus, newly defined
formatters (added by loading a plugin on-the-fly) will not be
recognized, even though the plugins that define those formatters ARE
being invoked.

> does not work for me for some reason. I get "(This plugin has not been
> executed because it was added since startup)" for each one of them
> when I go to backstage plugin manager.

PluginManager's logic *assumes* that any plugins that are newer than
the filedate aren't performed. Regardless of what PluginManager
reports, the <<loadTiddlers ... init>> macro DOES invoke the plugin's
code.

[wolfgang]

Hi to all,

> Eric,

>
> do I understand correctly that using the "init" feature I can load ALL
> the plugins I'm using into a (vanilla TW + LoadTiddlersPlugin)? It

> does not work for me for some reason. I get "(This plugin has not been
> executed because it was added since startup)" for each one of them
> when I go to backstage plugin manager.
>

> RA.

Take a look at ListExtCode plugin:

http://garr.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/ptw/ListExtensionsCode-1.1.1.js

This Plugin is an alternative PluginManager.
Other than the build in PluginManager - this shows all the
systemConfig tiddlers and external javascript files, which are loaded
through a different routine than ordinarily installed plugins. As
there are: those loaded on demand by InlineJavascriptPlugins onclick
handling, LoadTiddlerPlugin init plugins loading, tinytiddly's
external twcore.js loading, or for example also if fckeditor was
loaded with Pascal's wysiwyg plugin. Originally this was build by Bram
Chen for his LoadExtPlugin, which loads external .js as plugins too
and has been around the longest of the whole lot.

And here all the aforementioned plugins really differentiate from
TiddlyMasterPlugin, which was originally loadExternal.js, and is now
called: MasterIncludesPlugin (beta stage ;-)
Which is able to load every kind of TiddlyWiki plugins. Because it
loads them right at startup, all the external plugins are included in
the regular PluginManager and show there without difference to
internally installed plugins.

Beside being able to load formatter defining plugins, one other big
visible difference is that macros, which would show with red error
messages at startup - because their specific macros are still loading
with all "after startup loading plugins" - aren't showing at all.

Regards,

W.

[wolfgang]

> Actually, I used plain symbols for the closing, fold/unfold and jump
> buttons of each tiddler in the file I send you and can be seen there.
> And its functioning online with the older version: TiddlyMasterPlugin,
> here:
>
> http://vipa.3host.biz/TiddlyDesktop.html

Here I was mistaken! Though in this online version TiddlyMasterPlugin
is loaded and can be seen functional in the backstage as 'master'
backstage bar item - because server specific path syntax hasn't been
implemented fully yet - TiddlyMasterPlugin itself is the only thing
loaded. And all other systemConfigs are regularly installed. However
at this location I also experimented with InlineJavascript onclick
loading of external .js files, and ListExtCode PluginManger can be
seen functioning with these.

W.

> http://garr.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/ptw/ListExtensionsCode-1.1...

[RA]

Hi wolfgang,

me like TiddlyMasterPlugin very much. Please proceed to the gamma-
stage ;-) (or is it "delta-" for "Documentation included"?)

RA

> http://garr.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/ptw/ListExtensionsCode-1.1...

[wolfgang]

Hi Ra,

> me like TiddlyMasterPlugin very much. Please proceed to the gamma-
> stage ;-) (or is it "delta-" for "Documentation included"?)

Sorry, but I'm not only not the developer of TiddlyMasterPlugin - that
honor goes to FND - I don't even now any javascript!

However, I use TiddlyMasterPlugin all the time with my TiddlyWikis on
my local drive. Because only server functionality isn't functioning
yet. As already said before - because there is no fully developed
plugins with the same scope out there.

For documentation, this former reply should get you started:

Don't feel too shy to ask if this doesn't answers all your questions.

And if you would still prefer, like I do, the forerunner version of
MasterIncludesPlugin - which is TiddlyMasterPlugin - you could still
find the plugin itself at my experimental setup and download it from
there:

http://vipa.3host.biz/TiddlyMasterPlugin.js

And the only 2 additionally needed tiddlers specific to
TiddlyMasterPlugin in the slave:

http://vipa.3host.biz/TiddlyDesktop.html#TiddlyMasterConfig%20MarkupPostBody

You'll only have to adapt it to your need in the ImportFilder slice of
TiddlyMasterConfig. If you would use the master.html with only one
slave, I would set it to [tag[systemConfig]]

Otherwise the setup is exactly the same with this forerunner version
as with MasterIncludesPlugin

Regards,

W.

[wolfgang]

> me like TiddlyMasterPlugin very much. Please proceed to the gamma-
> stage ;-) (or is it "delta-" for "Documentation included"?)

'delta' for some documentation provided on 'how to set it up':

I created a 'TiddlyMasterPlugin Info' tiddler at this experimental TW:

http://vipa.3host.biz/TiddlyDesktop.html#%5B%5BTiddlyMasterPlugin%20Info%5D%5D

But don't be fooled by this online setup - because TiddlyMasterPlugin
actually only works on a local drive.

W.