It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs
improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've
formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth
and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.
In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively
seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we
asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest
incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play
with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These
incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching
in the main project.
We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would
like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:
* too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read
* too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users
* some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is off-
putting for first time users
* too much jargon
* key navigation items missing, superfluous items included
**We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with general
suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above,
the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking
feedback on incremental changes.
(Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been
rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work,
as and when this file is moved to the live server)
We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to
get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are
any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key
principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in
mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially confuse
the user; if there is important information missing, please consider
whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing
it.
Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of
TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can
learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger
challenge.
And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your criticism
and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!
> **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> improvement on the existing site**
Yes, I think they do. However, in the category of "too much text on
home page" and "superfluous items included," one of the things that I
found confusing at first is the long "Timeline" list of tiddlers. What
is all that stuff, and what's of value to me? Getting rid of the tabs
in the sidebar altogether would limit utility to more experienced
users, but what if the initial display was a "Contents" tab that
displayed titles of only a limited number of immediately useful
tiddlers?
On Jun 11, 1:34 pm, Jon <jevis...@noctrl.edu> wrote:
> > **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> > improvement on the existing site**
> Yes, I think they do. However, in the category of "too much text on
> home page" and "superfluous items included," one of the things that I
> found confusing at first is the long "Timeline" list of tiddlers. What
> is all that stuff, and what's of value to me? Getting rid of the tabs
> in the sidebar altogether would limit utility to more experienced
> users, but what if the initial display was a "Contents" tab that
> displayed titles of only a limited number of immediately useful
> tiddlers?
Many people customize the default for the sidebar to put the
[[SidebarTabs]] content into a slider, like this:
1) Create a tiddler called [[ContentsSlider]] containing:
------------
@@margin-left:.5em;<<slider chkContents SideBarTabs "contents »" "show
lists of tiddlers contained in this document">>@@
-------------
2) Modify the [[PageTemplate]] to replace this line:
<div id='sidebarTabs' refresh='content' force='true'
tiddler='SideBarTabs'></div>
with
<div id='sidebarTabs' refresh='content' force='true'
tiddler='ContentsSlider'></div>
The result is that the regular SidebarTabs are placed in a slider
labelled "contents »" that initially defaults to closed.
I agree that the timeline on the right is intimidating.
Additionally, how about some pictures on the opening screen to draw
the first timers in - pages full of text can be intimidating for the
modern web surfer and if you have not captured their attention in the
first sentence or two, you have lost them. Things like a 'Download
picture' and a 'Tutorial picture' to draw their attention.
In particular, Eric's loading plugin to have a nice relaxing picture
display whilst the tiddlywiki is loading.
...Lyall
On Jun 12, 6:01 am, Eric Shulman <elsdes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 11, 1:34 pm, Jon <jevis...@noctrl.edu> wrote:
> > > **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> > > improvement on the existing site**
> > Yes, I think they do. However, in the category of "too much text on
> > home page" and "superfluous items included," one of the things that I
> > found confusing at first is the long "Timeline" list of tiddlers. What
> > is all that stuff, and what's of value to me? Getting rid of the tabs
> > in the sidebar altogether would limit utility to more experienced
> > users, but what if the initial display was a "Contents" tab that
> > displayed titles of only a limited number of immediately useful
> > tiddlers?
> Many people customize the default for the sidebar to put the
> [[SidebarTabs]] content into a slider, like this:
> 1) Create a tiddler called [[ContentsSlider]] containing:
> ------------
> @@margin-left:.5em;<<slider chkContents SideBarTabs "contents »" "show
> lists of tiddlers contained in this document">>@@
> -------------
> 2) Modify the [[PageTemplate]] to replace this line:
> <div id='sidebarTabs' refresh='content' force='true'
> tiddler='SideBarTabs'></div>
> with
> <div id='sidebarTabs' refresh='content' force='true'
> tiddler='ContentsSlider'></div>
> The result is that the regular SidebarTabs are placed in a slider
> labelled "contents »" that initially defaults to closed.
> It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs
> improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've
> formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth
> and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.
> In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively
> seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we
> asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest
> incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play
> with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These
> incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching
> in the main project.
> We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would
> like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:
> * too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read
> * too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users
> * some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is off-
> putting for first time users
> * too much jargon
> * key navigation items missing, superfluous items included
> **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with general
> suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above,
> the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking
> feedback on incremental changes.
> (Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been
> rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work,
> as and when this file is moved to the live server)
> We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to
> get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are
> any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key
> principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in
> mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially confuse
> the user; if there is important information missing, please consider
> whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing
> it.
> Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of
> TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can
> learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger
> challenge.
> And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your criticism
> and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!
Before reading the replies here, my initial thought was also that
timeline is unnecessary and defaulting to the tags would be much more
useful and look better at the same time.
Chris
On Jun 11, 11:07 pm, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> The opening page is nice and clean and refreshing compared to what was
> before.
> I noticed that the links in the MainMenu "Community" and "Help and
> Support" both link to Community. It wasn't that way when I looked at
> it earlier.
> Morris Gray
> On Jun 11, 8:17 pm, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs
> > improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've
> > formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth
> > and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.
> > In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively
> > seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we
> > asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest
> > incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play
> > with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These
> > incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching
> > in the main project.
> > We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would
> > like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:
> > * too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read
> > * too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users
> > * some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is off-
> > putting for first time users
> > * too much jargon
> > * key navigation items missing, superfluous items included
> > **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> > improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with general
> > suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above,
> > the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking
> > feedback on incremental changes.
> > (Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been
> > rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work,
> > as and when this file is moved to the live server)
> > We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to
> > get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are
> > any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key
> > principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in
> > mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially confuse
> > the user; if there is important information missing, please consider
> > whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing
> > it.
> > Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of
> > TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can
> > learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger
> > challenge.
> > And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your criticism
> > and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!
Jon > Re the right hand side, goo idea. And thank you Eric for the
fix.
Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side. The
second is that we should look at other solutions for consideration
before proceeding with this quick fix. A tag cloud has been suggested,
or perhaps the link to a site map. These things need to be considered
within the broader context of an effective navigation system - which
we'll get to in due course, but for now we need to make a good, quick
decision.
I've uploaded a new TiddlyWiki here, which shows the implementation of
the slider on the right and a link to Site Map on the left. Does
anyone have a preference? Or have views on these concerns?
Lyall > Regarding the pictures, we're definitely keen to add some
screenshots to help people who are evaluating the product. It deserves
careful thought around what kind of pictures one might show, of what
kind of TiddlyWiki, how do we account for people with smaller screens
(so we need to keep important information on the screen). This will be
part of the larger redesign process, and we'll keep you posted.
Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at
the same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My
feeling here is that we can justify the existence of both links
because different people will be looking for them both. Our research
so far shows that both links exist on many open source product pages,
and this is a decent indication of expected behaviour.
More feedback and further comments are invited.
Cheers,
Phil
On Jun 12, 9:36 am, Chris Bryant <ch...@graviteklabs.com> wrote:
> Yes, I feel the changes represent an improvement.
> Before reading the replies here, my initial thought was also that
> timeline is unnecessary and defaulting to the tags would be much more
> useful and look better at the same time.
> Chris
> On Jun 11, 11:07 pm, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> > The opening page is nice and clean and refreshing compared to what was
> > before.
> > I noticed that the links in the MainMenu "Community" and "Help and
> > Support" both link to Community. It wasn't that way when I looked at
> > it earlier.
> > Morris Gray
> > On Jun 11, 8:17 pm, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs
> > > improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've
> > > formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth
> > > and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.
> > > In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively
> > > seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we
> > > asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest
> > > incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play
> > > with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These
> > > incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching
> > > in the main project.
> > > We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would
> > > like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:
> > > * too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read
> > > * too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users
> > > * some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is off-
> > > putting for first time users
> > > * too much jargon
> > > * key navigation items missing, superfluous items included
> > > **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> > > improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with general
> > > suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above,
> > > the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking
> > > feedback on incremental changes.
> > > (Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been
> > > rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work,
> > > as and when this file is moved to the live server)
> > > We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to
> > > get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are
> > > any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key
> > > principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in
> > > mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially confuse
> > > the user; if there is important information missing, please consider
> > > whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing
> > > it.
> > > Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of
> > > TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can
> > > learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger
> > > challenge.
> > > And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your criticism
> > > and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!
Great work so far Phil and the rest. Here's some feedback, mainly on the content you've presented (in no particular order, sorry): When talking about how to set your username in "Editing", the link to "InterfaceOptions" should be replaced by a note about the username box in the sidebar and if necessary a link to InterfaceOptions that has the tiddler name hidden and replaced with something like "here". Reason: InterfaceOptions is an intimidating phrase to a newbie.
In the "example" tiddler, "Double Square" should be "double square".
Don't mention adaptors and RSS so early on; in fact, don't mention adaptors by name at all, an allusion to the ability to download external data is fine. This is enough to whet the appetite of people who care about it and not too much to put off those who aren't.
Would be worth explaining about how to close tiddlers when you introduce them in the "Editing" tiddler.
"Saving" - do we have to say that it requires "a little configuration"? Maybe it's because I know exactly how little that "little" is, but it has me quaking in my boots.
There's no mention of the fact that TiddlyWiki will display the JavaScript warning on Internet Explorer when you open it.
"Formatting" - display a list there and then so people can look at it without leaving the site?
"Plugins" - the leading plugin sites are *not* best accessible through the systemServer tiddlers - move away from this!
Some of your the tiddlers are not tagged: Tutorials and Guides, Download, Editing; plus, the introductory tiddlers are not consistently tagged with something to bind them.
"Wiki" (at the top of "HelloThere") does not have a capital letter.
I think that the Frappr link is a bit pointless as I think the site is naff. Like I said, "I think".
The new "content" option on the sidebar is bleeding into the "options" option.
J.
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:39 PM, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jon > Re the right hand side, goo idea. And thank you Eric for the > fix.
> Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces > a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it > introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side. The > second is that we should look at other solutions for consideration > before proceeding with this quick fix. A tag cloud has been suggested, > or perhaps the link to a site map. These things need to be considered > within the broader context of an effective navigation system - which > we'll get to in due course, but for now we need to make a good, quick > decision.
> I've uploaded a new TiddlyWiki here, which shows the implementation of > the slider on the right and a link to Site Map on the left. Does > anyone have a preference? Or have views on these concerns?
> Lyall > Regarding the pictures, we're definitely keen to add some > screenshots to help people who are evaluating the product. It deserves > careful thought around what kind of pictures one might show, of what > kind of TiddlyWiki, how do we account for people with smaller screens > (so we need to keep important information on the screen). This will be > part of the larger redesign process, and we'll keep you posted.
> Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at > the same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My > feeling here is that we can justify the existence of both links > because different people will be looking for them both. Our research > so far shows that both links exist on many open source product pages, > and this is a decent indication of expected behaviour.
> More feedback and further comments are invited.
> Cheers, > Phil
> On Jun 12, 9:36 am, Chris Bryant <ch...@graviteklabs.com> wrote: > > Yes, I feel the changes represent an improvement.
> > Before reading the replies here, my initial thought was also that > > timeline is unnecessary and defaulting to the tags would be much more > > useful and look better at the same time.
> > Chris
> > On Jun 11, 11:07 pm, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> > > The opening page is nice and clean and refreshing compared to what was > > > before.
> > > I noticed that the links in the MainMenu "Community" and "Help and > > > Support" both link to Community. It wasn't that way when I looked at > > > it earlier.
> > > Morris Gray
> > > On Jun 11, 8:17 pm, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs > > > > improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've > > > > formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth > > > > and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.
> > > > In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively > > > > seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we > > > > asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest > > > > incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play > > > > with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These > > > > incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching > > > > in the main project.
> > > > We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would > > > > like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:
> > > > * too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read > > > > * too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users > > > > * some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is > off- > > > > putting for first time users > > > > * too much jargon > > > > * key navigation items missing, superfluous items included
> > > > **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an > > > > improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with > general > > > > suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above, > > > > the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking > > > > feedback on incremental changes.
> > > > (Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been > > > > rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work, > > > > as and when this file is moved to the live server)
> > > > We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to > > > > get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are > > > > any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key > > > > principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in > > > > mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially > confuse > > > > the user; if there is important information missing, please consider > > > > whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing > > > > it.
> > > > Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of > > > > TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can > > > > learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger > > > > challenge.
> > > > And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your > criticism > > > > and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!
> Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at the
> same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My feeling
> here is that we can justify the existence of both links because different
> people will be looking for them both. Our research so far shows that both
> links exist on many open source product pages, and this is a decent
> indication of expected behaviour.
> More feedback and further comments are invited.
Sorry, I am certainly mistaken about the links having been different
before. I must have rationalized them being different because it looks
like a mistake with two links so adjacent to one another going to the
same tiddler that I failed to suspend my disbelief :-)
Keeping in mind the major brief of not confusing the newcomer I think
more research should be done. I am not a newcomer and I thought it
was a mistake because I have never seen such a combination before -
anywhere for it is most certainly unintuitive and unproductive;
notwithstanding the results of your research on 'open source product
pages' there is no evidence that our 'fictional newcomers' have ever
seen an open source product page and will be relying on their general
knowledge to interpret the links according the broad definitions of
the words used in them.
Under Community one would expect many examples of the TiddlyWiki art;
forums, chat rooms, clubs, adaptations, clever manipulation of the
capabilities of TiddlyWiki on show, news and events, including T-
shirts and coffee cups.
Under Help and Support one would expect help and support; including
links to forums, other sites offering various levels of instruction,
tutorials and other no-nonsense directions toward solving problems, or
'solution resolution' if you prefer the idiom of our day
The Community tiddler is a legacy tiddler which other than mentioning
people around the world generously contributing their time and skill
it's hardly a Community tiddler and in truth only points to discussion
groups and the lonely tiddlywiki.org.
(This may be a good place to mention that during such a redesign as
this that one doesn't become too much of a slave to legacy permalinks
for it will surely lead to unacceptable compromise and obfuscation of
the task - this discussion being an example.)
Whereas Help and Support is new and should certainly produce what its
very definitive name promises for it is a much needed addition and
will surely become the most clicked on link on the site; assuming of
course it is carefully designed, delivers what it promises, and
doesn't lead one in circles.
I hope these candid observations are of some help so early in the
project.
> Jon > Re the right hand side, goo idea. And thank you Eric for the
> fix.
> Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
> a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
> introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side. The
> second is that we should look at other solutions for consideration
> before proceeding with this quick fix. A tag cloud has been suggested,
> or perhaps the link to a site map. These things need to be considered
> within the broader context of an effective navigation system - which
> we'll get to in due course, but for now we need to make a good, quick
> decision.
> I've uploaded a new TiddlyWiki here, which shows the implementation of
> the slider on the right and a link to Site Map on the left. Does
> anyone have a preference? Or have views on these concerns?
> Lyall > Regarding the pictures, we're definitely keen to add some
> screenshots to help people who are evaluating the product. It deserves
> careful thought around what kind of pictures one might show, of what
> kind of TiddlyWiki, how do we account for people with smaller screens
> (so we need to keep important information on the screen). This will be
> part of the larger redesign process, and we'll keep you posted.
> Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at
> the same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My
> feeling here is that we can justify the existence of both links
> because different people will be looking for them both. Our research
> so far shows that both links exist on many open source product pages,
> and this is a decent indication of expected behaviour.
> More feedback and further comments are invited.
> Cheers,
> Phil
> On Jun 12, 9:36 am, Chris Bryant <ch...@graviteklabs.com> wrote:
> > Yes, I feel the changes represent an improvement.
> > Before reading the replies here, my initial thought was also that
> > timeline is unnecessary and defaulting to the tags would be much more
> > useful and look better at the same time.
> > Chris
> > On Jun 11, 11:07 pm, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> > > The opening page is nice and clean and refreshing compared to what was
> > > before.
> > > I noticed that the links in the MainMenu "Community" and "Help and
> > > Support" both link to Community. It wasn't that way when I looked at
> > > it earlier.
> > > Morris Gray
> > > On Jun 11, 8:17 pm, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs
> > > > improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've
> > > > formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth
> > > > and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.
> > > > In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively
> > > > seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we
> > > > asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest
> > > > incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play
> > > > with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These
> > > > incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching
> > > > in the main project.
> > > > We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would
> > > > like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:
> > > > * too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read
> > > > * too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users
> > > > * some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is off-
> > > > putting for first time users
> > > > * too much jargon
> > > > * key navigation items missing, superfluous items included
> > > > **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> > > > improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with general
> > > > suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above,
> > > > the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking
> > > > feedback on incremental changes.
> > > > (Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been
> > > > rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work,
> > > > as and when this file is moved to the live server)
> > > > We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to
> > > > get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are
> > > > any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key
> > > > principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in
> > > > mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially confuse
> > > > the user; if there is important information missing, please consider
> > > > whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing
> > > > it.
> > > > Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of
> > > > TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can
> > > > learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger
> > > > challenge.
> > > > And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your criticism
> > > > and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!
> > Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at the
> > same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My feeling
> > here is that we can justify the existence of both links because different
> > people will be looking for them both. Our research so far shows that both
> > links exist on many open source product pages, and this is a decent
> > indication of expected behaviour.
> > More feedback and further comments are invited.
> Sorry, I am certainly mistaken about the links having been different
> before. I must have rationalized them being different because it looks
> like a mistake with two links so adjacent to one another going to the
> same tiddler that I failed to suspend my disbelief :-)
> Keeping in mind the major brief of not confusing the newcomer I think
> more research should be done. I am not a newcomer and I thought it
> was a mistake because I have never seen such a combination before -
> anywhere for it is most certainly unintuitive and unproductive;
> notwithstanding the results of your research on 'open source product
> pages' there is no evidence that our 'fictional newcomers' have ever
> seen an open source product page and will be relying on their general
> knowledge to interpret the links according the broad definitions of
> the words used in them.
> Under Community one would expect many examples of the TiddlyWiki art;
> forums, chat rooms, clubs, adaptations, clever manipulation of the
> capabilities of TiddlyWiki on show, news and events, including T-
> shirts and coffee cups.
> Under Help and Support one would expect help and support; including
> links to forums, other sites offering various levels of instruction,
> tutorials and other no-nonsense directions toward solving problems, or
> 'solution resolution' if you prefer the idiom of our day
> The Community tiddler is a legacy tiddler which other than mentioning
> people around the world generously contributing their time and skill
> it's hardly a Community tiddler and in truth only points to discussion
> groups and the lonely tiddlywiki.org.
> (This may be a good place to mention that during such a redesign as
> this that one doesn't become too much of a slave to legacy permalinks
> for it will surely lead to unacceptable compromise and obfuscation of
> the task - this discussion being an example.)
> Whereas Help and Support is new and should certainly produce what its
> very definitive name promises for it is a much needed addition and
> will surely become the most clicked on link on the site; assuming of
> course it is carefully designed, delivers what it promises, and
> doesn't lead one in circles.
> I hope these candid observations are of some help so early in the
> project.
> On Jun 13, 1:39 am, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Great feedback guys, thank you!
> > Jon > Re the right hand side, goo idea. And thank you Eric for the
> > fix.
> > Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
> > a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
> > introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side. The
> > second is that we should look at other solutions for consideration
> > before proceeding with this quick fix. A tag cloud has been suggested,
> > or perhaps the link to a site map. These things need to be considered
> > within the broader context of an effective navigation system - which
> > we'll get to in due course, but for now we need to make a good, quick
> > decision.
> > I've uploaded a new TiddlyWiki here, which shows the implementation of
> > the slider on the right and a link to Site Map on the left. Does
> > anyone have a preference? Or have views on these concerns?
> > Lyall > Regarding the pictures, we're definitely keen to add some
> > screenshots to help people who are evaluating the product. It deserves
> > careful thought around what kind of pictures one might show, of what
> > kind of TiddlyWiki, how do we account for people with smaller screens
> > (so we need to keep important information on the screen). This will be
> > part of the larger redesign process, and we'll keep you posted.
> > Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at
> > the same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My
> > feeling here is that we can justify the existence of both links
> > because different people will be looking for them both. Our research
> > so far shows that both links exist on many open source product pages,
> > and this is a decent indication of expected behaviour.
> > More feedback and further comments are invited.
> > Cheers,
> > Phil
> > On Jun 12, 9:36 am, Chris Bryant <ch...@graviteklabs.com> wrote:
> > > Yes, I feel the changes represent an improvement.
> > > Before reading the replies here, my initial thought was also that
> > > timeline is unnecessary and defaulting to the tags would be much more
> > > useful and look better at the same time.
> > > Chris
> > > On Jun 11, 11:07 pm, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> > > > The opening page is nice and clean and refreshing compared to what was
> > > > before.
> > > > I noticed that the links in the MainMenu "Community" and "Help and
> > > > Support" both link to Community. It wasn't that way when I looked at
> > > > it earlier.
> > > > Morris Gray
> > > > On Jun 11, 8:17 pm, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs
> > > > > improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've
> > > > > formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth
> > > > > and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.
> > > > > In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively
> > > > > seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we
> > > > > asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest
> > > > > incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play
> > > > > with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These
> > > > > incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching
> > > > > in the main project.
> > > > > We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would
> > > > > like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:
> > > > > * too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read
> > > > > * too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users
> > > > > * some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is off-
> > > > > putting for first time users
> > > > > * too much jargon
> > > > > * key navigation items missing, superfluous items included
> > > > > **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> > > > > improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with general
> > > > > suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above,
> > > > > the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking
> > > > > feedback on incremental changes.
> > > > > (Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been
> > > > > rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work,
> > > > > as and when this file is moved to the live server)
> > > > > We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to
> > > > > get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are
> > > > > any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key
> > > > > principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in
> > > > > mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially confuse
> > > > > the user; if there is important information missing, please consider
> > > > > whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing
> > > > > it.
> > > > > Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of
> > > > > TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can
> > > > > learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger
> > > > > challenge.
> > > > > And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your criticism
> > > > > and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!
> Thanks chaps, helpful feedback. I'm going to be off the grid for a few
> days now, but will compose a response in due course.
> All the best,
> Phil
> On Jun 12, 6:15 pm, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> > > Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at the
> > > same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My feeling
> > > here is that we can justify the existence of both links because different
> > > people will be looking for them both. Our research so far shows that both
> > > links exist on many open source product pages, and this is a decent
> > > indication of expected behaviour.
> > > More feedback and further comments are invited.
> > Sorry, I am certainly mistaken about the links having been different
> > before. I must have rationalized them being different because it looks
> > like a mistake with two links so adjacent to one another going to the
> > same tiddler that I failed to suspend my disbelief :-)
> > Keeping in mind the major brief of not confusing the newcomer I think
> > more research should be done. I am not a newcomer and I thought it
> > was a mistake because I have never seen such a combination before -
> > anywhere for it is most certainly unintuitive and unproductive;
> > notwithstanding the results of your research on 'open source product
> > pages' there is no evidence that our 'fictional newcomers' have ever
> > seen an open source product page and will be relying on their general
> > knowledge to interpret the links according the broad definitions of
> > the words used in them.
> > Under Community one would expect many examples of the TiddlyWiki art;
> > forums, chat rooms, clubs, adaptations, clever manipulation of the
> > capabilities of TiddlyWiki on show, news and events, including T-
> > shirts and coffee cups.
> > Under Help and Support one would expect help and support; including
> > links to forums, other sites offering various levels of instruction,
> > tutorials and other no-nonsense directions toward solving problems, or
> > 'solution resolution' if you prefer the idiom of our day
> > The Community tiddler is a legacy tiddler which other than mentioning
> > people around the world generously contributing their time and skill
> > it's hardly a Community tiddler and in truth only points to discussion
> > groups and the lonely tiddlywiki.org.
> > (This may be a good place to mention that during such a redesign as
> > this that one doesn't become too much of a slave to legacy permalinks
> > for it will surely lead to unacceptable compromise and obfuscation of
> > the task - this discussion being an example.)
> > Whereas Help and Support is new and should certainly produce what its
> > very definitive name promises for it is a much needed addition and
> > will surely become the most clicked on link on the site; assuming of
> > course it is carefully designed, delivers what it promises, and
> > doesn't lead one in circles.
> > I hope these candid observations are of some help so early in the
> > project.
> > On Jun 13, 1:39 am, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Great feedback guys, thank you!
> > > Jon > Re the right hand side, goo idea. And thank you Eric for the
> > > fix.
> > > Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
> > > a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
> > > introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side. The
> > > second is that we should look at other solutions for consideration
> > > before proceeding with this quick fix. A tag cloud has been suggested,
> > > or perhaps the link to a site map. These things need to be considered
> > > within the broader context of an effective navigation system - which
> > > we'll get to in due course, but for now we need to make a good, quick
> > > decision.
> > > I've uploaded a new TiddlyWiki here, which shows the implementation of
> > > the slider on the right and a link to Site Map on the left. Does
> > > anyone have a preference? Or have views on these concerns?
> > > Lyall > Regarding the pictures, we're definitely keen to add some
> > > screenshots to help people who are evaluating the product. It deserves
> > > careful thought around what kind of pictures one might show, of what
> > > kind of TiddlyWiki, how do we account for people with smaller screens
> > > (so we need to keep important information on the screen). This will be
> > > part of the larger redesign process, and we'll keep you posted.
> > > Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at
> > > the same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My
> > > feeling here is that we can justify the existence of both links
> > > because different people will be looking for them both. Our research
> > > so far shows that both links exist on many open source product pages,
> > > and this is a decent indication of expected behaviour.
> > > More feedback and further comments are invited.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Phil
> > > On Jun 12, 9:36 am, Chris Bryant <ch...@graviteklabs.com> wrote:
> > > > Yes, I feel the changes represent an improvement.
> > > > Before reading the replies here, my initial thought was also that
> > > > timeline is unnecessary and defaulting to the tags would be much more
> > > > useful and look better at the same time.
> > > > Chris
> > > > On Jun 11, 11:07 pm, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> > > > > The opening page is nice and clean and refreshing compared to what was
> > > > > before.
> > > > > I noticed that the links in the MainMenu "Community" and "Help and
> > > > > Support" both link to Community. It wasn't that way when I looked at
> > > > > it earlier.
> > > > > Morris Gray
> > > > > On Jun 11, 8:17 pm, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs
> > > > > > improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've
> > > > > > formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth
> > > > > > and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.
> > > > > > In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively
> > > > > > seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we
> > > > > > asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest
> > > > > > incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play
> > > > > > with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These
> > > > > > incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching
> > > > > > in the main project.
> > > > > > We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would
> > > > > > like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:
> > > > > > * too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read
> > > > > > * too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users
> > > > > > * some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is off-
> > > > > > putting for first time users
> > > > > > * too much jargon
> > > > > > * key navigation items missing, superfluous items included
> > > > > > **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> > > > > > improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with general
> > > > > > suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above,
> > > > > > the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking
> > > > > > feedback on incremental changes.
> > > > > > (Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been
> > > > > > rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work,
> > > > > > as and when this file is moved to the live server)
> > > > > > We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to
> > > > > > get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are
> > > > > > any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key
> > > > > > principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in
> > > > > > mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially confuse
> > > > > > the user; if there is important information missing, please consider
> > > > > > whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of
> > > > > > TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can
> > > > > > learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger
> > > > > > challenge.
> > > > > > And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your criticism
> > > > > > and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!
> Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
> a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
> introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side.
Actually, my original thought was to keep the Tabs in the sidebar, but
add a new "Contents" tab which would be the default one and could have
a fairly short list of tiddlers most likely to be useful to the
newbie. Some of these could be things like "Advanced Features" or
"Using Plugins" that could basically be lists of other tiddlers on the
site--grouping related things will make it easier for the newbie to
navigate.
The Contents slider certainly makes the appearance less intimidating,
but trying to put myself back in the shoes of my first contact with
TW, I don't think I'd see that little "Contents" label next to other
things I didn't understand like "permaview," and if I did click it,
I'd be back to the intimidating Timeline list.
Not sure if it's placeholder content or not, but I have a problem with the sitemap link. My problem is that when you click it you don't get a sitemap. Suggested solutions: a). change the name to something other than sitemap. b). make a sitemap.
> > Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
> > a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
> > introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side.
> Actually, my original thought was to keep the Tabs in the sidebar, but
> add a new "Contents" tab which would be the default one and could have
> a fairly short list of tiddlers most likely to be useful to the
> newbie. Some of these could be things like "Advanced Features" or
> "Using Plugins" that could basically be lists of other tiddlers on the
> site--grouping related things will make it easier for the newbie to
> navigate.
> The Contents slider certainly makes the appearance less intimidating,
> but trying to put myself back in the shoes of my first contact with
> TW, I don't think I'd see that little "Contents" label next to other
> things I didn't understand like "permaview," and if I did click it,
> I'd be back to the intimidating Timeline list.
> Great work so far Phil and the rest. Here's some feedback, mainly on the
> content you've presented (in no particular order, sorry):
> When talking about how to set your username in "Editing", the link to
> "InterfaceOptions" should be replaced by a note about the username box in
> the sidebar and if necessary a link to InterfaceOptions that has the tiddler
> name hidden and replaced with something like "here". Reason:
> InterfaceOptions is an intimidating phrase to a newbie.
> In the "example" tiddler, "Double Square" should be "double square".
> Don't mention adaptors and RSS so early on; in fact, don't mention adaptors
> by name at all, an allusion to the ability to download external data is
> fine. This is enough to whet the appetite of people who care about it and
> not too much to put off those who aren't.
> Would be worth explaining about how to close tiddlers when you introduce
> them in the "Editing" tiddler.
> "Saving" - do we have to say that it requires "a little configuration"?
> Maybe it's because I know exactly how little that "little" is, but it has me
> quaking in my boots.
> There's no mention of the fact that TiddlyWiki will display the JavaScript
> warning on Internet Explorer when you open it.
> "Formatting" - display a list there and then so people can look at it
> without leaving the site?
> "Plugins" - the leading plugin sites are *not* best accessible through the
> systemServer tiddlers - move away from this!
> Some of your the tiddlers are not tagged: Tutorials and Guides, Download,
> Editing; plus, the introductory tiddlers are not consistently tagged with
> something to bind them.
> "Wiki" (at the top of "HelloThere") does not have a capital letter.
> I think that the Frappr link is a bit pointless as I think the site is naff.
> Like I said, "I think".
> The new "content" option on the sidebar is bleeding into the "options"
> option.
> J.
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:39 PM, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Great feedback guys, thank you!
> > Jon > Re the right hand side, goo idea. And thank you Eric for the
> > fix.
> > Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
> > a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
> > introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side. The
> > second is that we should look at other solutions for consideration
> > before proceeding with this quick fix. A tag cloud has been suggested,
> > or perhaps the link to a site map. These things need to be considered
> > within the broader context of an effective navigation system - which
> > we'll get to in due course, but for now we need to make a good, quick
> > decision.
> > I've uploaded a new TiddlyWiki here, which shows the implementation of
> > the slider on the right and a link to Site Map on the left. Does
> > anyone have a preference? Or have views on these concerns?
> > Lyall > Regarding the pictures, we're definitely keen to add some
> > screenshots to help people who are evaluating the product. It deserves
> > careful thought around what kind of pictures one might show, of what
> > kind of TiddlyWiki, how do we account for people with smaller screens
> > (so we need to keep important information on the screen). This will be
> > part of the larger redesign process, and we'll keep you posted.
> > Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at
> > the same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My
> > feeling here is that we can justify the existence of both links
> > because different people will be looking for them both. Our research
> > so far shows that both links exist on many open source product pages,
> > and this is a decent indication of expected behaviour.
> > More feedback and further comments are invited.
> > Cheers,
> > Phil
> > On Jun 12, 9:36 am, Chris Bryant <ch...@graviteklabs.com> wrote:
> > > Yes, I feel the changes represent an improvement.
> > > Before reading the replies here, my initial thought was also that
> > > timeline is unnecessary and defaulting to the tags would be much more
> > > useful and look better at the same time.
> > > Chris
> > > On Jun 11, 11:07 pm, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> > > > The opening page is nice and clean and refreshing compared to what was
> > > > before.
> > > > I noticed that the links in the MainMenu "Community" and "Help and
> > > > Support" both link to Community. It wasn't that way when I looked at
> > > > it earlier.
> > > > Morris Gray
> > > > On Jun 11, 8:17 pm, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs
> > > > > improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've
> > > > > formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth
> > > > > and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.
> > > > > In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively
> > > > > seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we
> > > > > asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest
> > > > > incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play
> > > > > with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These
> > > > > incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching
> > > > > in the main project.
> > > > > We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would
> > > > > like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:
> > > > > * too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read
> > > > > * too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users
> > > > > * some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is
> > off-
> > > > > putting for first time users
> > > > > * too much jargon
> > > > > * key navigation items missing, superfluous items included
> > > > > **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> > > > > improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with
> > general
> > > > > suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above,
> > > > > the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking
> > > > > feedback on incremental changes.
> > > > > (Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been
> > > > > rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work,
> > > > > as and when this file is moved to the live server)
> > > > > We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to
> > > > > get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are
> > > > > any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key
> > > > > principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in
> > > > > mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially
> > confuse
> > > > > the user; if there is important information missing, please consider
> > > > > whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing
> > > > > it.
> > > > > Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of
> > > > > TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can
> > > > > learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger
> > > > > challenge.
> > > > > And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your
> > criticism
> > > > > and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!
On Jun 12, 5:39 pm, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Great feedback guys, thank you!
> Jon > Re the right hand side, goo idea. And thank you Eric for the
> fix.
> Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
> a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
> introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side. The
> second is that we should look at other solutions for consideration
> before proceeding with this quick fix. A tag cloud has been suggested,
> or perhaps the link to a site map. These things need to be considered
> within the broader context of an effective navigation system - which
> we'll get to in due course, but for now we need to make a good, quick
> decision.
I agree that he white space does look odd, and it does mean that
people that are used to the usual TiddlyWiki layout might be a little
confused at first.
I quite like the idea of defaulting the regular side bar to the tags
tab. It does not look intimidating, and the tags are useful for
navigation purposes. The layout remains what people are used to and if
someone really wants the timeline it is easily accessible.
> I've uploaded a new TiddlyWiki here, which shows the implementation of
> the slider on the right and a link to Site Map on the left. Does
> anyone have a preference? Or have views on these concerns?
> Lyall > Regarding the pictures, we're definitely keen to add some
> screenshots to help people who are evaluating the product. It deserves
> careful thought around what kind of pictures one might show, of what
> kind of TiddlyWiki, how do we account for people with smaller screens
> (so we need to keep important information on the screen). This will be
> part of the larger redesign process, and we'll keep you posted.
> Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at
> the same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My
> feeling here is that we can justify the existence of both links
> because different people will be looking for them both. Our research
> so far shows that both links exist on many open source product pages,
> and this is a decent indication of expected behaviour.
> More feedback and further comments are invited.
> Cheers,
> Phil
> On Jun 12, 9:36 am, Chris Bryant <ch...@graviteklabs.com> wrote:
> > Yes, I feel the changes represent an improvement.
> > Before reading the replies here, my initial thought was also that
> > timeline is unnecessary and defaulting to the tags would be much more
> > useful and look better at the same time.
> > Chris
> > On Jun 11, 11:07 pm, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> > > The opening page is nice and clean and refreshing compared to what was
> > > before.
> > > I noticed that the links in the MainMenu "Community" and "Help and
> > > Support" both link to Community. It wasn't that way when I looked at
> > > it earlier.
> > > Morris Gray
> > > On Jun 11, 8:17 pm, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs
> > > > improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've
> > > > formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth
> > > > and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.
> > > > In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively
> > > > seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we
> > > > asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest
> > > > incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play
> > > > with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These
> > > > incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching
> > > > in the main project.
> > > > We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would
> > > > like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:
> > > > * too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read
> > > > * too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users
> > > > * some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is off-
> > > > putting for first time users
> > > > * too much jargon
> > > > * key navigation items missing, superfluous items included
> > > > **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> > > > improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with general
> > > > suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above,
> > > > the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking
> > > > feedback on incremental changes.
> > > > (Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been
> > > > rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work,
> > > > as and when this file is moved to the live server)
> > > > We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to
> > > > get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are
> > > > any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key
> > > > principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in
> > > > mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially confuse
> > > > the user; if there is important information missing, please consider
> > > > whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing
> > > > it.
> > > > Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of
> > > > TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can
> > > > learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger
> > > > challenge.
> > > > And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your criticism
> > > > and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!
On Jun 14, 2:28 pm, "Simon Baird" <simon.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not sure if it's placeholder content or not, but I have a problem with the
> sitemap link. My problem is that when you click it you don't get a sitemap.
> Suggested solutions: a). change the name to something other than sitemap.
> b). make a sitemap.
OK, y'all, I'm back! Mentally as well as physically.
So I've gone through all the feedback and implemented several changes
- thanks everyone! The key elements have been implemented as follows:
1. Left hand navigations items
a. Community and Help and Support were both pointed at the same
tiddler. I agree this was a bad idea, so I've removed the Community
link, and we now just have a Help and Support tiddler. Should help
newcomers, and has the right 'information scent' for established
users.
b. Have removed the link to sitemap, this was misleading
2. Tagging
I did a poor job on the tagging of new tiddlers, and this has now been
rectified
3. Content slider
We didn't really reach consensus on whether the large amount of
content on the right hand side should stay (whether defaulting to tags
or not). My suggestion therefore is that we hide it under a slider for
now, for the sake of new users being overwhelmed by the amount of
text, and make solving this problem more elegantly a priority going
forward
So here's what I suggest is the final beta release of the new site -
remember what we're looking for here is reasons why this shouldn't
replace the existing version, so visitors can start benefiting from
the other improvements asap:
(You are the boss of course, but why is the welcoming document not
more of an editable TW page itself that "we/the members of the
community" can contribute to / improve?)
If the *purpose* of this update is to simplify for new users, then I
would also strongly suggest:
* a nomenclature/dictionary! (tiddler, tag, tab, tiddlysnip,
tiddlyspot, toodle-schmoodle - not obvious!)
* that the "Help and support" tiddler is more of a meta-help than
actual help. Maybe it'd be possible to iframe the tw.org main page?
(thereby fulfilling my first reflectoin above). - although that page
may be a bit overwhelming (scary) for an absolute beginner. May I also/
alternatively suggest including tiddler "Tutorials and Guides" in
"Help and Support"
* Also - a suggestion from a beginners perspective, (i.e something
that I experienced as problematic when I started using TW a year ago);
there is a bit of a threshold to understand that tiddlers are (kind
of) separate pieces of information and that they are presented semi-
randomly onto the TW page. One way to lower this threshold would be to
have some kind of frames around the individual tiddlers. This, I
think, should be default and if/when people want the no-frame look
that can be modified.
Also, in tiddler "Help and Support" you mention "TiddlyWiki is legally
owned by The UnaMesa Foundation." - but it may be worth nothing that
it is non-profit (as noted in another tiddler).
The current text in "Hello there" does contain some vluable
introductory info about TW, but it does not encourage use. It's almost
like an ad... but they don't get to understand that it's actually the
product itself they're looking at, and so
I would also strongly suggest to more clearly indicate that they're
actually looking at the very product (and not information about it).
I'd suggest a separate default tiddler, alternatively a very visible
headline in the Hello tiddler saying "Getting Started" or some such,
for that current last paragraph about starting to use it.
Also, the "double click to edit" is mentioned, but I would suggest
also mentioning "click 'done' in the upper right corner when done" or
some such. It is *very* discretely placed up there for someone who
doesn't already know. (Even almost invisible when the mouse isn't
pointing directly at the tiddler.)
...and maybe I should add the most important thing; I think it's great
that you're doing an update on this! :-)
Thanks for your work on this; here are a few comments/suggestions, intended to make it easier for newbies.
I think it would be helpful to keep *Features* (formerly *MainFeatures*) in the MainMenu
In the *Download* tiddler, it would be helpful to include a brief explanation of the shadow *GettingStarted* tiddler, e.g. by adding
Once you've downloaded your ~TiddlyWiki file and opened it in your browser, the GettingStarted tiddler will be displayed, allowing you to define your SiteTitle and SiteSubtitle that will be displayed, after saving them, in the header and in your browser title bar.
You will also want to define the DefaultTiddlers - displayed when your TiddlyWiki opens - and the MainMenu - normally shown in the left column of the page.
In addition, it would be helpful if the Formatting link from Download would display all the tiddlers tagged with formatting - in addition to the contents of ExtendedFormatting
The *Configuration* tiddler displays several *Error in macro <<br>>*messages - easily remedied by replacing the <<br>>s with <br>s; in addition, it might be helfpul to reorganize the items in the tiddler - e.g. grouping SiteUrl with SiteTitle & SiteSubtitle, and PageTemplate with the stylesheets, and perhaps some brief explanation or headers
HTH
Robert
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, y'all, I'm back! Mentally as well as physically.
> So I've gone through all the feedback and implemented several changes > - thanks everyone! The key elements have been implemented as follows:
> 1. Left hand navigations items > a. Community and Help and Support were both pointed at the same > tiddler. I agree this was a bad idea, so I've removed the Community > link, and we now just have a Help and Support tiddler. Should help > newcomers, and has the right 'information scent' for established > users. > b. Have removed the link to sitemap, this was misleading
> 2. Tagging > I did a poor job on the tagging of new tiddlers, and this has now been > rectified
> 3. Content slider > We didn't really reach consensus on whether the large amount of > content on the right hand side should stay (whether defaulting to tags > or not). My suggestion therefore is that we hide it under a slider for > now, for the sake of new users being overwhelmed by the amount of > text, and make solving this problem more elegantly a priority going > forward
> So here's what I suggest is the final beta release of the new site - > remember what we're looking for here is reasons why this shouldn't > replace the existing version, so visitors can start benefiting from > the other improvements asap:
I'm sorry - my previous answer was after opening this thread and only
seeing Mr. Whitehouses last post and thus not realizing he was
specifically not asking for new suggestions.
So, first off; yes, I do think it's an improvement over the existing
one.
Second, one thing I mentioned *is* worse in the new version - i.e that
it doesn't quite make it as clear that it actually is the product
itself, as opposed to a website talking about it. Mainly what is
clearer in the old version is that it apparently has a
"header" (actually a tiddler title) stating Getting Started. This
potential mis-interpretation is enhanced by the fact that "Download"
is just under it. (Quick-skimming user: "so, to try it I'll first have
to download it - just like most downloadable software on the net")
(Third, an error crept in in my unasked for feedback; I meant to say
that the *current* help is more meta-info and I new users would
appreciate actual help (se above concrete suggestinos)).
I hope this post provided some value.
/Mat
On Jul 3, 7:30 pm, Amzg <matiasg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> (You are the boss of course, but why is the welcoming document not
> more of an editable TW page itself that "we/the members of the
> community" can contribute to / improve?)
> If the *purpose* of this update is to simplify for new users, then I
> would also strongly suggest:
> * a nomenclature/dictionary! (tiddler, tag, tab, tiddlysnip,
> tiddlyspot, toodle-schmoodle - not obvious!)
> * that the "Help and support" tiddler is more of a meta-help than
> actual help. Maybe it'd be possible to iframe the tw.org main page?
> (thereby fulfilling my first reflectoin above). - although that page
> may be a bit overwhelming (scary) for an absolute beginner. May I also/
> alternatively suggest including tiddler "Tutorials and Guides" in
> "Help and Support"
> * Also - a suggestion from a beginners perspective, (i.e something
> that I experienced as problematic when I started using TW a year ago);
> there is a bit of a threshold to understand that tiddlers are (kind
> of) separate pieces of information and that they are presented semi-
> randomly onto the TW page. One way to lower this threshold would be to
> have some kind of frames around the individual tiddlers. This, I
> think, should be default and if/when people want the no-frame look
> that can be modified.
> Also, in tiddler "Help and Support" you mention "TiddlyWiki is legally
> owned by The UnaMesa Foundation." - but it may be worth nothing that
> it is non-profit (as noted in another tiddler).
> The current text in "Hello there" does contain some vluable
> introductory info about TW, but it does not encourage use. It's almost
> like an ad... but they don't get to understand that it's actually the
> product itself they're looking at, and so
> I would also strongly suggest to more clearly indicate that they're
> actually looking at the very product (and not information about it).
> I'd suggest a separate default tiddler, alternatively a very visible
> headline in the Hello tiddler saying "Getting Started" or some such,
> for that current last paragraph about starting to use it.
> Also, the "double click to edit" is mentioned, but I would suggest
> also mentioning "click 'done' in the upper right corner when done" or
> some such. It is *very* discretely placed up there for someone who
> doesn't already know. (Even almost invisible when the mouse isn't
> pointing directly at the tiddler.)
> ...and maybe I should add the most important thing; I think it's great
> that you're doing an update on this! :-)
On Jul 4, 1:54 am, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So here's what I suggest is the final beta release of the new site -
> remember what we're looking for here is reasons why this shouldn't
> replace the existing version, so visitors can start benefiting from
> the other improvements asap:
To the question, is the redesign better than the original; yes, most
emphatically. The absence of a dizzying array of bold links confusing
the eye and mind is a great improvement. And if the clean lines can
be carried throughout the rest of the site it will be magnificent. I
think links should be shown as lists and avoided being buried in the
text as much as possible, in spite of the fascination most wikis show
for hyperlinks.
While we are on the subject of clutter; look at Getting Started for
example. I believe that showing a list of tiddlers that are tagged
with Getting Started adds to the clutter. I don't see how the casual
users of a site like this could benefit for such information. It's of
little value to anyone except possibly the designer of the site and
consequently should probably stay hidden for the sake of readability.
Since you wish to to get some of the redesign online quickly I am
assuming what we see at the moment is what will be going up soon.
If so I still have an issue with Help and Support. I think it is still
more support than help. The links to the very popular helps sites
that are linked on Getting Started are not displayed on the opening
page as they were before, nor is Getting Started displayed on the
MainMenu. Help and help sites should be easy to find. Of course these
sites present much of the same information as the tiddlywiki.com site
does but in completely different ways that can cater to the variety of
ways and levels of understanding a diverse audience can have.
I notice you now have a tiddler entitled Tutorials and Guides with
much of the same information this should either be on the MainMenu or
barring that the information should be shown on Help and Support (not
as yet another drill down link but as:
<<tiddler [[Tutorials and Guides]]>> )
> OK, y'all, I'm back! Mentally as well as physically.
> So I've gone through all the feedback and implemented several changes
> - thanks everyone! The key elements have been implemented as follows:
> 1. Left hand navigations items
> a. Community and Help and Support were both pointed at the same
> tiddler. I agree this was a bad idea, so I've removed the Community
> link, and we now just have a Help and Support tiddler. Should help
> newcomers, and has the right 'information scent' for established
> users.
> b. Have removed the link to sitemap, this was misleading
> 2. Tagging
> I did a poor job on the tagging of new tiddlers, and this has now been
> rectified
> 3. Content slider
> We didn't really reach consensus on whether the large amount of
> content on the right hand side should stay (whether defaulting to tags
> or not). My suggestion therefore is that we hide it under a slider for
> now, for the sake of new users being overwhelmed by the amount of
> text, and make solving this problem more elegantly a priority going
> forward
> So here's what I suggest is the final beta release of the new site -
> remember what we're looking for here is reasons why this shouldn't
> replace the existing version, so visitors can start benefiting from
> the other improvements asap:
> You are the boss of course, but why is the welcoming document not > more of an editable TW page itself that "we/the members of the > community" can contribute to / improve?
I guess that doesn't work for designing a site like this. However, we do have the community wiki, from where content could be transferred to the "product site" eventually.
> * a nomenclature/dictionary! (tiddler, tag, tab, tiddlysnip, > tiddlyspot, toodle-schmoodle - not obvious!)
> Maybe it'd be possible to iframe the tw.org main page? > (thereby fulfilling my first reflectoin above). - although that page > may be a bit overwhelming (scary) for an absolute beginner.
Indeed - the community wiki's front page is in desperate need of an overhaul...
> have some kind of frames around the individual tiddlers
Agree - although we need to be careful it's not too obtrusive.
> Also, in tiddler "Help and Support" you mention "TiddlyWiki is legally > owned by The UnaMesa Foundation." - but it may be worth nothing that > it is non-profit (as noted in another tiddler).
> While we are on the subject of clutter; look at Getting Started for
> example. I believe that showing a list of tiddlers that are tagged
> with Getting Started adds to the clutter.
So do you think we should avoid using tags altogether, or just on
default tiddlers? I was thinking it was actually quite helpful for new
users; when they click on GettingStarted, they get a list of all the
categories of getting started. They also get a demonstration of one of
the important functions of TiddlyWiki. I'd definitely agree the page
would look cleaner if the tags were removed, but at present I'm
inclined to think this benefit is more than offset by the other
benefits.
> If so I still have an issue with Help and Support. I think it is still
> more support than help. The links to the very popular helps sites
> that are linked on Getting Started are not displayed on the opening
> page as they were before, nor is Getting Started displayed on the
> MainMenu.
> Help and help sites should be easy to find. Of course these
> sites present much of the same information as the tiddlywiki.com site
> does but in completely different ways that can cater to the variety of
> ways and levels of understanding a diverse audience can have.
Good point - I'll make sure these sites are linked from the Help and
Support tiddler. I'd like to keep this content out of the default
tiddlers though, as adding anything more to the body of the page will
push essential content down below the page fold (already a problem!).
> I notice you now have a tiddler entitled Tutorials and Guides with
> much of the same information this should either be on the MainMenu or
> barring that the information should be shown on Help and Support (not
> as yet another drill down link but as:
> <<tiddler [[Tutorials and Guides]]>> )
I'll merge Help and Support with "Tutorials and Guides".
> That's my opinion:-) Keep up the good work.
Thanks! Any more final comments? If not, I'll push Jeremy for an
upload soon.
I know you are at final feedback, and that I am not part of the
development community (I'm just really hooked on TW right now) so do
what you will with this comment...
How about making 'tags' like 'references' in the tiddler menu?
Thanks to everyone. TW is such an amazing tool and the resources
available are equally valuable. I'm glad to see this redesign to make
it simpler. Keep it up!
