Redesign of TiddlyWiki.com

[Phil Whitehouse]

It's widely recognised that the TiddlyWiki.com website needs
improvement, so a few of us have decided to take on this task. We've
formed a core team (Jeremy, Saq, Fred, Daniel Baird, Phil Hawksworth
and myself) to grind out the gritty detail of the redesign.

We've laid the foundations for this project, and if you're interested
you can see this here (no design work yet): http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dd3mgnxz_75c65wh7g2

In order to avoid getting bogged down too early, we're not actively
seeking feedback on the conclusions we're drawing now, nor are we
asking for suggestions for improvements. Instead we'd like to suggest
incremental changes to the current site that you can see, have a play
with, and offer constructive criticism on before they go live. These
incremental improvements will be based on conclusions we're reaching
in the main project.

We'd like to address some key problems with TiddlyWiki.com and would
like feedback on this attempt. The issues we're trying to fix are:

* too many hyperlinks in text makes it hard to read
* too much text on home page is overwhelming for first time users
* some content on home page is aimed at power users, which is off-
putting for first time users
* too much jargon
* key navigation items missing, superfluous items included

And here's the attempt to fix these specific problems:
http://www.osmosoft.com/twredesign/TW.html

**We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
improvement on the existing site** - please don't respond with general
suggestions for improving the site at this stage! As mentioned above,
the process for gathering feedback from the community is seeking
feedback on incremental changes.

(Note that no tiddlers have been removed, but many have been
rewritten. Therefore permalinks to existing content will still work,
as and when this file is moved to the live server)

We've included a basic guide to getting started. Our wish here is to
get it live and then improve it - so, again, let us know if there are
any showstoppers. At all steps we've been guided by a single key
principle: first time user experience is king. Please bear this in
mind when suggesting additional content that could potentially confuse
the user; if there is important information missing, please consider
whether it should replace existing content rather than supplementing
it.

Of course, we also need to look at the first time user experience of
TiddlyWiki itself. We're taking on TiddlyWiki.com first so we can
learn from and improve the process, before we take on the bigger
challenge.

And with all that said, we breathlessly look forward to your criticism
and, hopefully, any words of encouragement you may have!

Phil

On behalf of the redesign team

[Jon]

> **We'd like your views on whether these changes represent an
> improvement on the existing site**

Yes, I think they do. However, in the category of "too much text on
home page" and "superfluous items included," one of the things that I
found confusing at first is the long "Timeline" list of tiddlers. What
is all that stuff, and what's of value to me? Getting rid of the tabs
in the sidebar altogether would limit utility to more experienced
users, but what if the initial display was a "Contents" tab that
displayed titles of only a limited number of immediately useful
tiddlers?

[Eric Shulman]

Many people customize the default for the sidebar to put the
[[SidebarTabs]] content into a slider, like this:

1) Create a tiddler called [[ContentsSlider]] containing:
------------
@@margin-left:.5em;<<slider chkContents SideBarTabs "contents »" "show
lists of tiddlers contained in this document">>@@
-------------

2) Modify the [[PageTemplate]] to replace this line:
<div id='sidebarTabs' refresh='content' force='true'
tiddler='SideBarTabs'></div>
with
<div id='sidebarTabs' refresh='content' force='true'
tiddler='ContentsSlider'></div>

The result is that the regular SidebarTabs are placed in a slider
labelled "contents »" that initially defaults to closed.

-e

[Lyall]

I agree that the timeline on the right is intimidating.

Additionally, how about some pictures on the opening screen to draw
the first timers in - pages full of text can be intimidating for the
modern web surfer and if you have not captured their attention in the
first sentence or two, you have lost them. Things like a 'Download
picture' and a 'Tutorial picture' to draw their attention.

In particular, Eric's loading plugin to have a nice relaxing picture
display whilst the tiddlywiki is loading.

...Lyall

[Morris Gray]

The opening page is nice and clean and refreshing compared to what was
before.

I noticed that the links in the MainMenu "Community" and "Help and
Support" both link to Community. It wasn't that way when I looked at
it earlier.

Morris Gray

[Chris Bryant]

Yes, I feel the changes represent an improvement.

Before reading the replies here, my initial thought was also that
timeline is unnecessary and defaulting to the tags would be much more
useful and look better at the same time.

Chris

[Phil Whitehouse]

Great feedback guys, thank you!

Jon > Re the right hand side, goo idea. And thank you Eric for the
fix.

Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side. The
second is that we should look at other solutions for consideration
before proceeding with this quick fix. A tag cloud has been suggested,
or perhaps the link to a site map. These things need to be considered
within the broader context of an effective navigation system - which
we'll get to in due course, but for now we need to make a good, quick
decision.

I've uploaded a new TiddlyWiki here, which shows the implementation of
the slider on the right and a link to Site Map on the left. Does
anyone have a preference? Or have views on these concerns?

http://www.osmosoft.com/twredesign/TW2.html

Lyall > Regarding the pictures, we're definitely keen to add some
screenshots to help people who are evaluating the product. It deserves
careful thought around what kind of pictures one might show, of what
kind of TiddlyWiki, how do we account for people with smaller screens
(so we need to keep important information on the screen). This will be
part of the larger redesign process, and we'll keep you posted.

Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at
the same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My
feeling here is that we can justify the existence of both links
because different people will be looking for them both. Our research
so far shows that both links exist on many open source product pages,
and this is a decent indication of expected behaviour.

More feedback and further comments are invited.

Cheers,
Phil

[Jonathan Lister]

Great work so far Phil and the rest. Here's some feedback, mainly on the content you've presented (in no particular order, sorry):

When talking about how to set your username in "Editing", the link to "InterfaceOptions" should be replaced by a note about the username box in the sidebar and if necessary a link to InterfaceOptions that has the tiddler name hidden and replaced with something like "here". Reason: InterfaceOptions is an intimidating phrase to a newbie.

In the "example" tiddler, "Double Square" should be "double square".

Don't mention adaptors and RSS so early on; in fact, don't mention adaptors by name at all, an allusion to the ability to download external data is fine. This is enough to whet the appetite of people who care about it and not too much to put off those who aren't.

Would be worth explaining about how to close tiddlers when you introduce them in the "Editing" tiddler.

"Saving" - do we have to say that it requires "a little configuration"? Maybe it's because I know exactly how little that "little" is, but it has me quaking in my boots.

There's no mention of the fact that TiddlyWiki will display the JavaScript warning on Internet Explorer when you open it.

"Formatting" - display a list there and then so people can look at it without leaving the site?

"Plugins" - the leading plugin sites are *not* best accessible through the systemServer tiddlers - move away from this!

Some of your the tiddlers are not tagged: Tutorials and Guides, Download, Editing; plus, the introductory tiddlers are not consistently tagged with something to bind them.

"Wiki" (at the top of "HelloThere") does not have a capital letter.

I think that the Frappr link is a bit pointless as I think the site is naff. Like I said, "I think".

The new "content" option on the sidebar is bleeding into the "options" option.

J.

[Morris Gray]

> Morris > I deliberately pointed "Community" and "Help and Support" at the
> same tiddler (there were no changes since upload, honest!). My feeling
> here is that we can justify the existence of both links because different
> people will be looking for them both. Our research so far shows that both
> links exist on many open source product pages, and this is a decent
> indication of expected behaviour.
>
> More feedback and further comments are invited.

Sorry, I am certainly mistaken about the links having been different
before. I must have rationalized them being different because it looks
like a mistake with two links so adjacent to one another going to the
same tiddler that I failed to suspend my disbelief :-)

Keeping in mind the major brief of not confusing the newcomer I think
more research should be done. I am not a newcomer and I thought it
was a mistake because I have never seen such a combination before -
anywhere for it is most certainly unintuitive and unproductive;
notwithstanding the results of your research on 'open source product
pages' there is no evidence that our 'fictional newcomers' have ever
seen an open source product page and will be relying on their general
knowledge to interpret the links according the broad definitions of
the words used in them.

Under Community one would expect many examples of the TiddlyWiki art;
forums, chat rooms, clubs, adaptations, clever manipulation of the
capabilities of TiddlyWiki on show, news and events, including T-
shirts and coffee cups.

Under Help and Support one would expect help and support; including
links to forums, other sites offering various levels of instruction,
tutorials and other no-nonsense directions toward solving problems, or
'solution resolution' if you prefer the idiom of our day

The Community tiddler is a legacy tiddler which other than mentioning
people around the world generously contributing their time and skill
it's hardly a Community tiddler and in truth only points to discussion
groups and the lonely tiddlywiki.org.

(This may be a good place to mention that during such a redesign as
this that one doesn't become too much of a slave to legacy permalinks
for it will surely lead to unacceptable compromise and obfuscation of
the task - this discussion being an example.)

Whereas Help and Support is new and should certainly produce what its
very definitive name promises for it is a much needed addition and
will surely become the most clicked on link on the site; assuming of
course it is carefully designed, delivers what it promises, and
doesn't lead one in circles.

I hope these candid observations are of some help so early in the
project.

Morris Gray
http://twhelp.tiddlyspot.com
A TiddlyWiki help file for beginners

[Phil Whitehouse]

Thanks chaps, helpful feedback. I'm going to be off the grid for a few
days now, but will compose a response in due course.

All the best,
Phil

> Morris Grayhttp://twhelp.tiddlyspot.com

[Chris Bryant]

Having a nice simple footer will help and is very standard and is a
good usability practice. The items Help and Support, Site map,
TiddlyWiki 2.4.0, and © 2008 UnaMesa could all go in the footer.

Also, rather than a tag cloud how about just defaulting to show the
vertical tags list that is already there under the contents link.

Regards,
Chris

[Jon]

> Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
> a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
> introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side.

Actually, my original thought was to keep the Tabs in the sidebar, but
add a new "Contents" tab which would be the default one and could have
a fairly short list of tiddlers most likely to be useful to the
newbie. Some of these could be things like "Advanced Features" or
"Using Plugins" that could basically be lists of other tiddlers on the
site--grouping related things will make it easier for the newbie to
navigate.

The Contents slider certainly makes the appearance less intimidating,
but trying to put myself back in the shoes of my first contact with
TW, I don't think I'd see that little "Contents" label next to other
things I didn't understand like "permaview," and if I did click it,
I'd be back to the intimidating Timeline list.

Hope that helps,
--Jon

[Simon Baird]

Not sure if it's placeholder content or not, but I have a problem with the sitemap link. My problem is that when you click it you don't get a sitemap. Suggested solutions: a). change the name to something other than sitemap. b). make a sitemap.

[jayfresh]

Jon,

I'd agree that under "Contents", an editorial line would be useful. A
topic list rather than a tiddler list...



J.

[lewcid]

Excellent suggestions Jon. I am in complete agreement.

On Jun 12, 6:19 pm, "Jonathan Lister" <jnthnl...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:39 PM, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com>

[lewcid]

On Jun 12, 5:39 pm, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Great feedback guys, thank you!
>
> Jon > Re the right hand side, goo idea. And thank you Eric for the
> fix.
>
> Some concerns expressed at this end, though, are that this introduces
> a couple of new problems which deserve consideration. First, it
> introduces a fair amount of white space down the right hand side. The
> second is that we should look at other solutions for consideration
> before proceeding with this quick fix. A tag cloud has been suggested,
> or perhaps the link to a site map. These things need to be considered
> within the broader context of an effective navigation system - which
> we'll get to in due course, but for now we need to make a good, quick
> decision.

I agree that he white space does look odd, and it does mean that
people that are used to the usual TiddlyWiki layout might be a little
confused at first.

I quite like the idea of defaulting the regular side bar to the tags
tab. It does not look intimidating, and the tags are useful for
navigation purposes. The layout remains what people are used to and if
someone really wants the timeline it is easily accessible.

Saq

[lewcid]

Agreed. The sitemap link is misleading.

[Phil Whitehouse]

OK, y'all, I'm back! Mentally as well as physically.

So I've gone through all the feedback and implemented several changes
- thanks everyone! The key elements have been implemented as follows:

1. Left hand navigations items
a. Community and Help and Support were both pointed at the same
tiddler. I agree this was a bad idea, so I've removed the Community
link, and we now just have a Help and Support tiddler. Should help
newcomers, and has the right 'information scent' for established
users.
b. Have removed the link to sitemap, this was misleading

2. Tagging
I did a poor job on the tagging of new tiddlers, and this has now been
rectified

3. Content slider
We didn't really reach consensus on whether the large amount of
content on the right hand side should stay (whether defaulting to tags
or not). My suggestion therefore is that we hide it under a slider for
now, for the sake of new users being overwhelmed by the amount of
text, and make solving this problem more elegantly a priority going
forward

So here's what I suggest is the final beta release of the new site -
remember what we're looking for here is reasons why this shouldn't
replace the existing version, so visitors can start benefiting from
the other improvements asap:

http://www.osmosoft.com/twredesign/TW3.html

Final feedback please!

Thanks,
Phil

[Amzg]

> Final feedback please!

(You are the boss of course, but why is the welcoming document not
more of an editable TW page itself that "we/the members of the
community" can contribute to / improve?)

If the *purpose* of this update is to simplify for new users, then I
would also strongly suggest:

* a nomenclature/dictionary! (tiddler, tag, tab, tiddlysnip,
tiddlyspot, toodle-schmoodle - not obvious!)

* that the "Help and support" tiddler is more of a meta-help than
actual help. Maybe it'd be possible to iframe the tw.org main page?
(thereby fulfilling my first reflectoin above). - although that page
may be a bit overwhelming (scary) for an absolute beginner. May I also/
alternatively suggest including tiddler "Tutorials and Guides" in
"Help and Support"

* Also - a suggestion from a beginners perspective, (i.e something
that I experienced as problematic when I started using TW a year ago);
there is a bit of a threshold to understand that tiddlers are (kind
of) separate pieces of information and that they are presented semi-
randomly onto the TW page. One way to lower this threshold would be to
have some kind of frames around the individual tiddlers. This, I
think, should be default and if/when people want the no-frame look
that can be modified.

Also, in tiddler "Help and Support" you mention "TiddlyWiki is legally
owned by The UnaMesa Foundation." - but it may be worth nothing that
it is non-profit (as noted in another tiddler).

The current text in "Hello there" does contain some vluable
introductory info about TW, but it does not encourage use. It's almost
like an ad... but they don't get to understand that it's actually the
product itself they're looking at, and so

I would also strongly suggest to more clearly indicate that they're
actually looking at the very product (and not information about it).
I'd suggest a separate default tiddler, alternatively a very visible
headline in the Hello tiddler saying "Getting Started" or some such,
for that current last paragraph about starting to use it.
Also, the "double click to edit" is mentioned, but I would suggest
also mentioning "click 'done' in the upper right corner when done" or
some such. It is *very* discretely placed up there for someone who
doesn't already know. (Even almost invisible when the mouse isn't
pointing directly at the tiddler.)


...and maybe I should add the most important thing; I think it's great
that you're doing an update on this! :-)

All best

/Mat

[Robert Pollard]

Phil

Thanks for your work on this; here are a few comments/suggestions, intended to make it easier for newbies.

I think it would be helpful to keep Features (formerly MainFeatures) in the MainMenu

In the Download tiddler, it would be helpful to include a brief explanation of the shadow GettingStarted tiddler, e.g. by adding

Once you've downloaded your ~TiddlyWiki file and opened it in your browser, the GettingStarted tiddler will be displayed, allowing you to define your SiteTitle and SiteSubtitle that will be displayed, after saving them, in the header and in your browser title bar.

You will also want to define the DefaultTiddlers - displayed when your TiddlyWiki opens - and the MainMenu - normally shown in the left column of the page.

In addition, it would be helpful if the Formatting link from Download would display all the tiddlers tagged with formatting - in addition to the contents of ExtendedFormatting

The Configuration tiddler displays several Error in macro <<br>> messages - easily remedied by replacing the <<br>>s with <br>s; in addition, it might be helfpul to reorganize the items in the tiddler - e.g. grouping SiteUrl with SiteTitle & SiteSubtitle, and PageTemplate with the stylesheets, and perhaps some brief explanation or headers

HTH

Robert

[Amzg]

I'm sorry - my previous answer was after opening this thread and only
seeing Mr. Whitehouses last post and thus not realizing he was
specifically not asking for new suggestions.
So, first off; yes, I do think it's an improvement over the existing
one.

Second, one thing I mentioned *is* worse in the new version - i.e that
it doesn't quite make it as clear that it actually is the product
itself, as opposed to a website talking about it. Mainly what is
clearer in the old version is that it apparently has a
"header" (actually a tiddler title) stating Getting Started. This
potential mis-interpretation is enhanced by the fact that "Download"
is just under it. (Quick-skimming user: "so, to try it I'll first have
to download it - just like most downloadable software on the net")

(Third, an error crept in in my unasked for feedback; I meant to say
that the *current* help is more meta-info and I new users would
appreciate actual help (se above concrete suggestinos)).

I hope this post provided some value.

/Mat

[Morris Gray]

On Jul 4, 1:54 am, Phil Whitehouse <phil.whiteho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So here's what I suggest is the final beta release of the new site -
> remember what we're looking for here is reasons why this shouldn't
> replace the existing version, so visitors can start benefiting from
> the other improvements asap:

To the question, is the redesign better than the original; yes, most
emphatically. The absence of a dizzying array of bold links confusing
the eye and mind is a great improvement. And if the clean lines can
be carried throughout the rest of the site it will be magnificent. I
think links should be shown as lists and avoided being buried in the
text as much as possible, in spite of the fascination most wikis show
for hyperlinks.

While we are on the subject of clutter; look at Getting Started for
example. I believe that showing a list of tiddlers that are tagged
with Getting Started adds to the clutter. I don't see how the casual
users of a site like this could benefit for such information. It's of
little value to anyone except possibly the designer of the site and
consequently should probably stay hidden for the sake of readability.

Since you wish to to get some of the redesign online quickly I am
assuming what we see at the moment is what will be going up soon.

If so I still have an issue with Help and Support. I think it is still
more support than help. The links to the very popular helps sites
that are linked on Getting Started are not displayed on the opening
page as they were before, nor is Getting Started displayed on the
MainMenu. Help and help sites should be easy to find. Of course these
sites present much of the same information as the tiddlywiki.com site
does but in completely different ways that can cater to the variety of
ways and levels of understanding a diverse audience can have.

I notice you now have a tiddler entitled Tutorials and Guides with
much of the same information this should either be on the MainMenu or
barring that the information should be shown on Help and Support (not
as yet another drill down link but as:
<<tiddler [[Tutorials and Guides]]>> )

That's my opinion:-) Keep up the good work.

Morris Gray

http://twhelp.tiddlyspot.com
A TiddlyWiki help file for beginners

[FND]

> You are the boss of course, but why is the welcoming document not
> more of an editable TW page itself that "we/the members of the
> community" can contribute to / improve?

I guess that doesn't work for designing a site like this. However, we do
have the community wiki, from where content could be transferred to the
"product site" eventually.

> * a nomenclature/dictionary! (tiddler, tag, tab, tiddlysnip,
> tiddlyspot, toodle-schmoodle - not obvious!)

A glossary like that would be good - although detailed explanations
should go on the community wiki.
In fact, we already have something on there:
http://www.tiddlywiki.org/wiki/TiddlyWiki_Glossary

> Maybe it'd be possible to iframe the tw.org main page?
> (thereby fulfilling my first reflectoin above). - although that page
> may be a bit overwhelming (scary) for an absolute beginner.

Indeed - the community wiki's front page is in desperate need of an
overhaul...

> have some kind of frames around the individual tiddlers

Agree - although we need to be careful it's not too obtrusive.

> Also, in tiddler "Help and Support" you mention "TiddlyWiki is legally
> owned by The UnaMesa Foundation." - but it may be worth nothing that
> it is non-profit (as noted in another tiddler).

Yeah - "legally owned" sounds awfully scary.

-- F.

[Phil Whitehouse]

Hi Morris,

Thanks for your feedback! My response:

> While we are on the subject of clutter; look at Getting Started for
> example. I believe that showing a list of tiddlers that are tagged
> with Getting Started adds to the clutter.  

So do you think we should avoid using tags altogether, or just on
default tiddlers? I was thinking it was actually quite helpful for new
users; when they click on GettingStarted, they get a list of all the
categories of getting started. They also get a demonstration of one of
the important functions of TiddlyWiki. I'd definitely agree the page
would look cleaner if the tags were removed, but at present I'm
inclined to think this benefit is more than offset by the other
benefits.

> If so I still have an issue with Help and Support. I think it is still
> more support than help. The links to the very popular helps sites
> that  are linked on Getting Started are not displayed on the opening
> page as they were before, nor is Getting Started displayed on the
> MainMenu.
>
> Help and help sites should be easy to find. Of course these
> sites present much of the same information as the tiddlywiki.com site
> does but in completely different ways that can cater to the variety of
> ways and levels of understanding a diverse audience can have.

Good point - I'll make sure these sites are linked from the Help and
Support tiddler. I'd like to keep this content out of the default
tiddlers though, as adding anything more to the body of the page will
push essential content down below the page fold (already a problem!).

> I notice you now have a tiddler entitled Tutorials and Guides with
> much of the same information this should either be on the MainMenu or
> barring that the information should be shown on Help and Support (not
> as yet another drill down link but as:
> <<tiddler [[Tutorials and Guides]]>> )

I'll merge Help and Support with "Tutorials and Guides".

> That's my opinion:-) Keep up the good work.

Thanks! Any more final comments? If not, I'll push Jeremy for an
upload soon.

[M)]

I know you are at final feedback, and that I am not part of the
development community (I'm just really hooked on TW right now) so do
what you will with this comment...

How about making 'tags' like 'references' in the tiddler menu?

Thanks to everyone. TW is such an amazing tool and the resources
available are equally valuable. I'm glad to see this redesign to make
it simpler. Keep it up!

M)

[M)]

What about...
a.tiddlyLinkExisting{font-weight:normal;}

'bold' makes it hard for me to read so I've changed my stylesheet.
This was inspired when I saw http://www.osmosoft.com/twredesign/TW3.html#Features

Alt-S in Firefox triggers the history menu :-(

M)

[Morris Gray]

> So do you think we should avoid using tags altogether, or just on
> default tiddlers? I was thinking it was actually quite helpful for new
> users; when they click on GettingStarted, they get a list of all the
> categories of getting started. They also get a demonstration of one of
> the important functions of TiddlyWiki. I'd definitely agree the page
> would look cleaner if the tags were removed, but at present I'm
> inclined to think this benefit is more than offset by the other
> benefits.

Hi Phil,

It is true that when you are on GettingStarted you do see a list of
associated 'getting started stuff' but I'm not sure that having it
dangling there without explanation is a good way of presenting the
associated tiddlers, or a demonstration of the tagging facility.
Neither are explained and if they were to be explained it's
questionable whether GettingStarted is the right place to explain the
tagging; and if the associated tiddlers are considered important
enough to be with GettingStarted the exercise would be better served
(and more pleasing) having them listed in the text with an explanation
of what they are.

In my opinion the whole tag thing with tagging and the normal tag box
looks a bit make-shift and geekish at best; aesthetically they look
horrid dangling on every tiddler whether they are relevant to the text
or not. I feel they are much more relevant to the construction or
trouble-shooting phase of a TiddlyWiki and shouldn't be visible by
default. Plugins that make use of tags in a more innovative way are a
different matter.

Other than that I am pleased with your uptake of suggestions and look
forward to seeing the final product.

Morris

[Robert Pollard]

Phil,

i agree with Morris that the default display of tags - in ViewTemplate - leaves something to be desired, although I believe it is very valuable for them to be displayed as they are an invaluable feature of TiddlyWiki.

Given the power of tags, I would also suggest that the Features tiddler include a concise description of Tags and a link to the Tags tiddler - and would reiterate my suggestion that features be added to the MainMenu

Specifically re the use of GettingStarted as a tag, this contradicts the statement in the Tags tiddler that:

This site uses the convention that the names of Tags start with a lower case letter, and tiddlers with an upper case letter, but this is not actually enforced.

and would suggest that the GettingStarted tags be changed to gettingstarted

Robert

[MarkPea]

Brief suggestions on twredesign/TW3.html
1) could you link somewhere to the 'Tags' and 'SpecialTags' tiddlers
-- perhaps in the 'Download' in the list Editing, Saving, Formatting,
''Tagging'' . I think that new users would find this useful. I only
found these by doing a search for 'tags'.

2) I think a tiddler providing an explanation of the header links
would be useful -- for instance what does 'fields' do? I'm a long time
TW user and I don't know myself :-)

3) maybe split the 'Download' tiddler retaining the material
pertaining to downloading but moving the list of how to use functions
(Edit, Save etc) into another tiddler perhaps called "How to Use" or
something similar that reflects it's utility. Add items about Tagging
and Control as mentioned in 1 & 2 above.

4) I really do think that there should be at least two fairly detailed
tiddlers about formatting. The first could cover basic formatting
functions (headers, lists, inline formatting, local links, links to
URLs, links to graphics, blockquotes) and the second covering tables
and application of styles and macros perhaps. Currently the
'formatting' link in Downloads links to ExtendedFormatting tiddler
which merely pushes new users offsite to the Markup page on
tiddlywiki.org/wiki which is a great reference but not so welcoming to
new users. My experience is that many new users (eg teaching faculty)
are intimidated by text markup since they are so used to
(pseudo)WYSWIG html interfaces. Making this more welcoming and
accessible would ease the acceptance curve. I'd be very prepared to
create a couple of tiddlers which you could copy.

Cheers
MarkPea

[FND]

> So do you think we should avoid using tags altogether, or just on
> default tiddlers?

We definitely need to keep the tags.
They might be displayed in a different manner, but I wouldn't consider
that a high priority right now.

> Any more final comments? If not, I'll push Jeremy for an
> upload soon.

I think we're ready to go ahead with this. Publish it ASAP - we can
always apply more tweaks later on.

-- F.

[M)]

I printed from TW for the first time. Great layout. The shadow
effect on the SiteTitle and SiteSubTitle print poorly. Consider
dropping that.

M)

[Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/]

(tiddler, tag, tab, tiddlysnip,
> tiddlyspot, toodle-schmoodle

Toodle-schmoodle is going to have me laughing all night. That was
great!

Dave

[Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/]

I know this comment will be quickly and soundly given a thumbs down,
but I think the tags and tagging boxes are clutter, as well as the
creator, creation date, etc. I routinely eliminate them via
viewtemplate. I like tagging but use the sidebartabs to navigate tags.
I like tiddlers to be as clean as possible.

Dave

[Draugen]

On Jul 9, 12:54 am, "Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/"

<giff...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know this comment will be quickly and soundly given a thumbs down,
> but I think the tags and tagging boxes are clutter, as well as the
> creator, creation date, etc. I routinely eliminate them via
> viewtemplate. I like tagging but use the sidebartabs to navigate tags.

Seconded! The 'tags' / 'tagging' boxes as-is are clutter IMHO. I can
see some use for having them in the ViewTemplate, but not in the
current implementation. I think a subtle, low.key footer might work
better.

- martin

[Morris Gray]

> I routinely eliminate them via
> viewtemplate. I like tagging but use the sidebartabs to navigate tags.
> I like tiddlers to be as clean as possible.
> Dave

Now that we're alone I admit that's the very first thing I do to.
Having all of those misplaced tags hanging all over the place makes it
look like a tenement building. It's a fashion tragic. It's the grunge
look, like Cyndi Lauper wearing her underwear on the outside. It's
so... so... 1990's

I did a little face lift of tiddlywiki.com front page to experiment
with a way to save real estate and make a better first impression.

What do you think?
http://twfacelift.tiddlyspot.com/index.html

Morris

On Jul 9, 8:54 am, "Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/"

[FND]

> I did a little face lift of tiddlywiki.com front page to experiment
> with a way to save real estate and make a better first impression.

It's quite nice (apart from the highlight colors and browser-specific
styles, maybe).
However, adding yet another top-level navigation layer is dangerous.

> I think the tags and tagging boxes are clutter, as well as the
> creator, creation date, etc. I routinely eliminate them via

As I've said before, I think keeping tags visible is essential - but we
might use a different presentation style.
With regards to creator and creation fields, it's worth considering not
to show those; they're probably not important in this context.

-- F.

[Amzg]

We're of course diverging from what Mr. Whitehouse asked for... but
since we're alone ;-)

Me, three, not like hanging tags. There is of course value with them
though, so it comes down to layout - and my suggestion would be tag-
drop-down menu integrated with the "close closeothers view more" i.e
same discrete gray color. Could even be a menu that drops down when
merely hovering.

/Mat

p.s Morris' layout; I like it but/and agree with FND.

On Jul 9, 2:25 am, Morris Gray <msg...@symbex.net.au> wrote:
> > I routinely eliminate them via
> > viewtemplate. I like tagging but use the sidebartabs to navigate tags.
> > I like tiddlers to be as clean as possible.
> > Dave
>
> Now that we're alone I admit that's the very first thing I do to.
> Having all of those misplaced tags hanging all over the place makes it
> look like a tenement building. It's a fashion tragic. It's the grunge
> look, like Cyndi Lauper wearing her underwear on the outside. It's
> so... so... 1990's
>
> I did a little face lift of tiddlywiki.com front page to experiment
> with a way to save real estate and make a better first impression.
>

> What do you think?http://twfacelift.tiddlyspot.com/index.html
>
> Morris
>
> On Jul 9, 8:54 am, "Dave Gifford -http://www.giffmex.org/"

[Morris Gray]

> It's quite nice (apart from the highlight colors and browser-specific
> styles, maybe). However, adding yet another top-level navigation layer is
> dangerous.

Thanks FND,

Of course the coloured images on the tabs isn't necessary, I did that
for fun. But as far as I can tell there is nothing browser specific
about tabs themselves since they are a core feature. And tabs seem to
be quite common on ninety-nine percent of web sites. They do have the
advantage of allowing the user to keep track of where they are while
they are concentrating on understanding the text. So I am curious as
to why you think tabs could be a dangerous level of navigation.

I am also curious as to why you think having tags visible all the time
is necessary, as opposed for instance to what Amzg said, 'easily
accessible' by hovering ?

Morris

[M)]

The discussion to date made me think how it would be nice to have
"formatting" available via a hover. Thus, while editing and I need to
know how to highlight or something, I can get the tip without leaving
the edit.

Amzg, I like you option for the location ("close closeothers view
more") and functioning (hover) of the tags. The cleaner the
presentation, the better.

[wolfgang]

> The discussion to date made me think how it would be nice to have
> "formatting" available via a hover. Thus, while editing and I need to
> know how to highlight or something, I can get the tip without leaving
> the edit.

Would already be available, only in Japanese though ;-)

http://tw.kuraku.net/clip.html#HelpTextMacro

Regards,

W.

[FND]

> as far as I can tell there is nothing browser specific
> about tabs themselves since they are a core feature.

I wasn't talking about the tabs, but their styling (-moz-border-radius).

> I am curious as
> to why you think tabs could be a dangerous level of navigation.

I wasn't referring to tabs in general: "adding yet another top-level

navigation layer is dangerous".

> I am also curious as to why you think having tags visible all the time

> is necessary, as opposed for instance to what Amzg said, 'easily

> accessible' by hovering ?#

Tags not only allow navigating to related tiddlers, they also provide
context (which can be quite crucial when it comes to micro-content).

-- F.

[Phil Whitehouse]

Thanks guys, I've made the final batch of changes, and the final
version will be uploaded shortly. You can see the (probable) final
version here:

http://osmosoft.com/twredesign/TW4.html

I've taken on board several comments, and will refer back to this
conversation as we push forward with more development. The main
suggestions I've implemented are:

'Features' now added to the main menu - good idea. I think I'll add
'Examples' too, once that tiddler is more up to date.

UnaMesa now specifically labelled as not-for-profit (toned down the
'legally owned by' bit)

I've changed the old GettingStarted and DownloadSoftware tiddlers so
they now just show the contents of the Download tiddler (improved
first time user experience). I did it this way to preserve any
external permalinks, or any internal ones I may have missed.

I've removed all reference to the sparklines tiddler, as this is now a
plugin.

I've also cleaned up a fair bit of text in other tiddlers. The details
are below....where I refer to superfluous links, I'm generally
referring to wiki words that don't point anywhere. For example,
people's names have been written in CamelCase, but no tiddlers made
for them. Or a link was made to the tiddler it appeared in
(recursive). In these cases I've either separated their names with a
space, or added a tilde (~) to remove the link. This is in an effort
to reduce the sheer weight of links on a page (as mentioned before
this makes it difficult to read, especially for new users).

So here are the other changes I've made:

Gone through the following tiddlers, removing dead links, adding a few
new ones, removing links where superfluous, ensuring pretty links are
used consistently:

Examples
TiddlyWikiAdaptations
GTDTiddlyWiki
TiddlyWikiFiction
TiddlyWikiTools
TiddlyWikiPod
ServerSide

I'll be asking folks for new and better links in due course, there are
doubtless many new ones to add! And as mentioned above, I think we can
add Examples to the main nav once it's more relevant.

Some specific feedback:

Robert > Where you've suggested talking about GettingStarted, this
content appears in the edit tiddler. There's so much content that
could be put in GettingStarted, I took the editorial decision to split
it up to avoid overwhelming the user. And it can all be accessed
quickly from the GettingStarted tags.

Robert > Have updated the Configuration tiddler, Error in macro
messages now don't appear.

Amzg > I've stated that the user is looking at a TiddlyWiki in the
first set of bullet points, as well as specifying the kind of
functionality that can be seen over the web below that. Given that
space on the home page is at a premium, I'd rather leave it
there...unless you can think of a better place it should go! I'm
afraid quick-skimming users will miss it wherever it appears...a
problem which I hope to address further down the line, when we start
looking at the use of graphics to improve the site.

Amzg > I've now added a link to the glossary in the Help and Support
section - good idea!

That's all for now, keep your eyes peeled for another update!

Cheers
Phil

[Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/]

Sorry this is such late feedback, but I **must** insist that "view" be
changed back to "edit." 99% of the time you are clicking edit because
you intend to edit the tiddler. You are usually not going there to
casually 'view' the source code. Computer-literate users are going to
relate 'view' to a browser's 'View page source', but non-geeks are not
going to make that mental connection. Edit tells them, "This is what
you click to edit this." "View" tells them nothing - "Aren't I already
viewing this?" Viewing is what you do *after* you have edited the
tiddler. You view the changes.

Also, many people have used my tutorial which uses the nomenclature
"View mode" and "Edit mode". Changing the "edit" button to "view"
would reverse that, since "view mode" would now be what up to now I've
been calling "edit" mode. Not that I'm not willing to change my
tutorial to reflect the changes, but I **really** think this is an
unwise change.

Dave Gifford

[Morris Gray]

I am trying to understand your argument against using tabs. While (-
moz-border-radius) might be browser specific to Firefox for rounded
corners; it just merely doesn't have this effect in other browsers and
the tabs show as squared off with no other degradation. That is not a
good reason because for any particular user/browser combination it has
no effect at all.

You did not explain, but merely repeated that "adding yet another top-
level navigation layer is dangerous". This is a very strong statement
and if we are to keep to our brief of making it easy for newcomers and
the experienced alike it needs proper explanation. If tabs is
'another top layer of navigation' then what other top layers of
navigation are there. How do these top layers of navigation compare to
ordinary navigation and how do they interact to become dangerous?

To me having all of the main heading as tabs has many advantages.
First of all it means there is practically no scrolling and the whole
of the content of the first page is visible at all times. In this
particular case seven different subjects are covered without ever
moving a scrollbar - getting distracted or lost - so a new user can
quietly and comfortably read this most important information without
chasing it all up and down the screen.

With tabs users can never get lost or distracted by having tiddlers
open on top of one another; driving the original information further
and further down the page from where they started. And if perchance
they click on a link to a tiddler that's already open they can find
themselves suddenly and without warning thrown somewhere in the middle
of God knows where, and the only way back is to scroll up and down to
find where you were to begin with. When you finally find and
recognize the very first place you started - where are you? - at the
bottom of a meter long page full of tiddlers that you have to start
closing to get rid of extraneous clutter. That's assuming you've even
noticed the tool bar to begin with.

Let's face it, without careful layout and carefully chosen navigation
methods TiddlyWiki is an ergonomic nightmare. No matter how enamored
people might be with buzz words like 'chunks of information' , 'micro-
content', or 'nonlinear' the fact remains that the most
distinguishing trait that humans have is that they are pattern seeking
beings. They look for any kind of patterns or order they can find to
get their bearing and to begin to make sense of their surrounding.

Any of TiddlyWiki's basic building blocks (tiddlers) have the
capability of being brought to the forefront in no particular order -
like pulling bricks out of a building at random. It is this very
capability that makes TiddlyWiki so interesting and versatile but like
the building, sooner or later........

It is up to the designer of the page to give it order for it has none
otherwise and this requires a knowledge of human traits, experience
and wisdom as well as the technical aspects, and being ever wary of
one's own solipsistic tendencies.

So what is it again that's so dangerous about tabs :-)

Morris Gray
http://twhelp.tiddlyspot.com
A TiddlyWiki help file for beginners

[Phil Whitehouse]

Oh blimey, I've just made a fool of myself! I was looking at the
bookmarked version of this thread, working through all the comments.
Weird, I'm sure my email alerts said there were more comments than
this. Never mind.

And I've only just now noticed a little link at the bottom of that
page.

"Newer"

Which I clicked and have now seen the last 15 or so comments!
Fortunately they mostly concern one subject, tagging. And as it
happens I've already removed the "tagged" box from the left of each
tiddler. I agree that the subject of tagging deserves a more prominent
place on the site, and I've therefore included it in the list of
topics in the Download tiddler, have fleshed out the Tags tiddler with
some more guidance, and have tagged it with gettingstarted.

Oh, and as a penance for my sins, I've also gone through and changed
all the tags including uppercase characters to lower case (apart from
the special tags, of course).

I'm also not a big fan of the way tagging is displayed in TiddlyWiki.
But feel confident that this is an issue best left for a future
iteration of TW.com, especially as it'll probably affect TiddlyWiki
itself!

So, here's an updated version!

http://www.osmosoft.com/twredesign/TW5.html

Cheers
Phil

[Phil Whitehouse]

Hi Dave,

Just want to reply on this point, I haven't changed edit to view -
it's on the current (old) version of the site, and happened before I
got my hands on it. I'm not sure who made this change (maybe Jeremy?
He's on holiday at the moment), but if anyone can shed some light on
this I'd like to resolve it.

Cheers
Phil

On Jul 10, 2:45 pm, "Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/"

[Tobias Beer]

> I'd definitely agree the page
> would look cleaner if the tags were removed,
> but at present I'm inclined to think
> this benefit is more than offset
> by the other benefits.

To me, intelligent tagging is most essential for tiddlywiki,
especially TagglyTagging. I totally agree that even an uninitiated
user should quickly be confronted with it... in order to get a first
feel on what he or she might otherwise be missing out on later!

Actually, I believe "tagging" merits its very own point in the
mainMenu as it is so essential when working with tiddlywiki. I also
think that the current core feature of displaying "tagging" tiddlers
is by magnitudes inferior to what tagglyTagging does. I guess that
doesn't quite belong here and it's probably been debated over and
over. As for me, TagglyTaging should definetely go into core as it
gives so much benefit. I would not start a new tiddlywiki without
it... same goes for YourSearchPlugin (if it were only styled a bit
more like core ;-)

[FND]

> I haven't changed edit to view

It's always been that way AFAICT; in readOnly mode, the "edit" label is
changed to "view":
config.commands.editTiddler.text = "edit";
config.commands.editTiddler.readOnlyText = view";

I understand Dave's concerns here, but can't think ofa better label
("view source" breaks the one-word convention, and simply "source" is
not a verb).
Either way, this should probably be discussed in a separate thread (this
one's pretty convoluted already... ).

-- F.

[Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/]

> Either way, this should probably be discussed in a separate thread (this
> one's pretty convoluted already... ).

Never mind, I realize now what happened - When it's on the web it's
called 'view', since you can't actually edit it. When you download it,
it becomes 'edit.' I hadn't realized that when I made my comments.
Sorry for the confusion. Ignore my comments above...

Dave