A few general Q's perhaps.
Kashgarinn
something I've been wondering, as I'm both a user of a normal MPTW as
well as a CCTW.
1) Is there a limit to how many tags a tiddler can have?
2) Is there a limit to how many tiddlers a TW can hold?
3) Let's say a TW grows and grows and grows, does the performance
decrease because of it's one-file paradigm? What are the limits to
the one-file paradigm, and what's the next logical step-up to
alleviate that?
4) instead of searching for text in a tiddler, could you search for
tag-hierarchy?
This 4) might be tricky to explain, so I'll try a bit here.
Let's say you've got these tiddlers:
i) a tiddler called "Computer related stuff" - mostly used as a tag
ii) a tiddler called "Legit Computer games" - mostly used as a tag
iii) a tiddler called "Xbox 360 games" - mostly used as a tag
iv) a tiddler called "Gears of War" - plus a few dozen other games in
their own tiddlers tagged under "xbox 360 games"
- now here's another tag-tree
v) a tiddler called "Contacts" - mostly used as a tag
vi) a tiddler called "Friends" - mostly used as a tag
vii) a tiddler called "Joe" - because Joe's a friend, he's tagged
under friends
viii) a tiddler called "Joes games" - mostly used as a tag linking his
games, "Gears of War" being one of them.
So Gears of War has 2 tag-trees.. it's linked to Xbox 360 games which
is linked to "Legit Computer games", and that's linked to computer
related stuff. and the other tag-tree is that gears of war is linked
to joes games, which is linked to joe, which is linked to friends,
which is linked to Contacts.
Let's use an example where there's at least a dozen games listed under
joes games, dozens under xbox 360 games itself, and there's at least a
few dozen people under contacts and about 10 under friends.
So question 4 could be rephrased to: could you limit your search so
that you would get all results regarding tiddlers tagged under "xbox
360 games" which are tagged under "Legit computer games" and also are
a child object under someone tagged under "friends"?
- So the result of that search would be all legit xbox 360 games my
friends own, even though the games themselves are not tagged directly
under "legit Computer games", nor directly under Friends...
It's a bit silly example, but I'd be interested if this could be made
possible. Linking would be made even more powerful in my opinion.
K.
Dave Gifford - TiddlyWiki in Action
sized tiddlywikis. Animations slow it down. Also, if your file gets
big you will want to open the shadowed tiddler tab rather than the tab
listing all tidders A-Z or by date. Or hide the tabbed menus
altogether if you don't need them showing. With each new tiddler, the
image of the two tabbed lists I mentioned (all and by date) has to be
refreshed and can take a while. You can remove the tabbed lists from
the page layout by removing their code from PageTemplate.
Nevertheless, I have a couple TiddlyWikis with 1,000s of tiddlers that
each have form fields, and I am not noting any other performance
issues yet.
Dave Gifford
FND
> tag-hierarchy?
Your explanation was a bit confusing ("a tiddler [...] used as a tag"?),
so I'm not sure whether this will help you, but I'm working on a plugin
to combine tags (see the thread on "hierarchical tag navigation").
So, let's take the very good example of contacts management:
Say you're looking for your parents' home address.
You have a list of tiddlers, all tagged with "contacts". Some of those
are additionally tagged with "family", "friends" or "associates".
Simply selecting the tag "contacts" would return a huge and overwhelming
list of tiddlers, but selecting "family" instead would also list
tiddlers that are irrelevant (e.g. journal entries of family events).
However, combining the tags "contacts" and "family" would return only
the small list of tiddlers containing contact information on your family
members.
Here's a hypothetical example:
Tag(s) Tiddlers
contacts 100
family 75
friends 60
contacts x family 10
contacts x friends 20
family x friends 15 (e.g. journal entries on joint events)
However, development is currently on hold as I'm waiting for a few
features to be included in the core (the popup code is currently being
tweaked to support nested popups).
-- F.
Daniel Baird
>
> I don't know whether these are silly questions or not, but it's
> something I've been wondering, as I'm both a user of a normal MPTW as
> well as a CCTW.
>
> 1) Is there a limit to how many tags a tiddler can have?
>
> 2) Is there a limit to how many tiddlers a TW can hold?
>
> 3) Let's say a TW grows and grows and grows, does the performance
> decrease because of it's one-file paradigm? What are the limits to
> the one-file paradigm, and what's the next logical step-up to
> alleviate that?
The answer to all these is more or less the same... there's no fixed
limit on any of those things.
Tags for a given tiddler are stored as an attribute value, which could
possibly have a limitation in some browser or other -- previously I've
seen browser weirdness happening at 4k and 32k, so if the total length
of one tiddler's tags gets close to 4k I'd start testing various
browsers to make sure they can handle attributes that long.
The problems reported by people with large TiddlyWikis are ususally
performance based, and it seems that the solution (once you've
disabled animations..) is to remove macros that loop through every
tiddler, like the tabs in the sidebar. So it's not so much the size
that's the problem in a direct sense, but the fact that many TW macros
assume that looping through every tiddler isn't very slow.
Hope this helps..
;Daniel
--
Daniel Baird
http://tiddlyspot.com (free, effortless TiddlyWiki hosting)
http://danielbaird.com (TiddlyW;nks! :: Whiteboard Koala :: Blog ::
Things That Suck)
Kashgarinn
to tens of thousands of tiddlers without any real problems, good to
know.
Regarding to 4, sorry if it was a bit confusing. when I said tiddler
- mostly used as a tag, I really was talking about that I use the
tagglytagging system, where a tag can itself be a tiddler.
I checked your idea, and I thought it was interesting, but perhaps it
could be expanded.
If I'm reading it correctly (and please correct me if I am) your idea
is that you have a tiddler "John Smith" and you tag that particular
tiddler with all the relevant information about John (so he would get
the tags "Contacts Family Dell CustomerHelpdesk") And if you limit
your display to "Dell Friends" you'd get John and other people tagged
the same, right?
I'm talking about something a little different. In simple terms,
here's how I'd see a tree-structure of tags:
Contacts
- Family
- John Smith
Dell
- CustomerHelpdesk
- John Smith
So the tiddler "John Smith" is only tagged as "Family and
CustomerHelpdesk" - and because those are tiddlers as well in the
tagglytagging system, CustomerHelpdesk and Family can be tagged under
"Contacts" and "Dell"
This way, my example above should look like this:
Computer Related stuff
- Legit Computer Games
- Xbox 360 Games
- Gears Of War
So gears of war in this example only has the tag "Xbox 360 Games", and
because "Xbox 360 Games is also a tiddler, it is tagged to "Legit
computer games" and that is tagged to "Computer Related stuff"
Then you have :
Contacts
- Friends
- Joe
- Joes Games
- Gears of War
Now I've tagged Gears of War with "Joes Games" tag as well as "Xbox
360 Games" tag.
What I'd like to be able to do is to do a filter search based on
"Legit Computer games AND Xbox 360 Games AND Friends" - so any legit
xbox 360 game a friend has linked in his games tiddler show up.
btw, I read the thread, and the discussion in it is very good, however
you should really try out the tagglytagging system for a few days
until you grasp its sheer brilliance. It's exactly what you want, but
instead of searching, you just browse. It took me 2 days to get it,
and about 2 weeks to understand it enough to use it comfortably.
I'll have to think 4) some more.. maybe I'm overthinking things. I'm
having a hard time actually nailing down how it should work, and that
means I should put it away and think about it. Ignore it for now :)
K.
Dave Gifford - TiddlyWiki in Action
really is value in FND creating a hierarchical system as well. I look
forward to the baby when it arrives.
Dave Gifford
Kashgarinn
worth checking out.
Fact is that there are 2 extremities regarding tagging things, one is
having all the relevant tags in the tiddler (which TW supports out of
the box), and the other is having a hierarchy of tags where the
tiddler itself would only be tagged with one tag in the end (like
tagglytagging supports), and of course the beauty of the tagglytagging
system is that you can mix and match between those 2 extremities as
you like.
And with both systems, when you've got a multitude of tags for each
tiddler, whether it's all tags in one tiddler, or the tags are in a
hierarchy, at some point it becomes a good idea to be able to filter
tiddlers based on tags, wether it's tags just in the tiddler or tag-
hierarchy of a tiddler or both.
So I'm very happy you're checking into this FND, it's an aspect of TW
which could prove very useful, only thing is.. what's the best way to
implement it?
Where would you need such a feature, and how should it work?
I'm thinking that it should be a macro.. something like the sitemap
plugin and it would display similarly as the wonderful tagglytagging
system, as in below the tiddler.. actually, if it looked just like the
tagglytagging system, that would be so very excellent. The sitemap
plugin is also a good candidate to be extended into displaying
similarly as the tagglytagging display. BTW, the sitemap option in
the tagglytagging is EXCELLENT! I love the new things you can do with
it.
I'm wondering though whether it would interfere with the tagglytagging
system.. where would you need this kind of filtering? I'm thinking
that this filtering would mostly happen at the bottom child-node as in
that tiddler, you want to display similar tiddlers for ease of use,
and not have to tag all the tiddlers you want to display under that
tiddler itself, but if it plays nicely with the current tagglytagging
system, that'd be great as well.
So I vote that tagglytagging to be extended into a "Filtertagging"
where you can both display the tiddlers linked under the tag you're
at, as well as being able to add a list either above or to the right
of, or below the tagglytags based on tag-conditions you specify in
that tiddler.
At least, that's what I think we're both talking about, isn't it?
K.
On Jul 1, 12:52 pm, Dave Gifford - TiddlyWiki in Action
FND
> is that you have a tiddler "John Smith" and you tag that particular
> tiddler with all the relevant information about John
Yes, that's the idea - and it's what makes tagging so easy; you just
throw in keywords without having to think about hierarchies.
The hierarchy will be constructed dynamically during the retrieval
process, giving you all the advantages of a hierarchical system (think
folder structures) without the hassle and inflexibility.
> you should really try out the tagglytagging system for a few days
> until you grasp its sheer brilliance. It's exactly what you want, but
> instead of searching, you just browse. It took me 2 days to get it,
> and about 2 weeks to understand it enough to use it comfortably.
I have played around with it for a bit, but I have indeed not fully
grasped it, I guess.
It's one of the many things on my to-do list...
Also - just for the record - I don't intend to replace or compete with
TagglyTagging. I'm primarily developing this plugin of mine because I'm
excited about that fully-dynamic hierarchy, and I'm interested to see
how it works out. If it does indeed work out the way I have in mind, I
think it will be a very natural process that will take no effort to be
understood right from the start.
If only I was a better programmer...
Speaking of that: I've been heavily advertising this plugin, but have
little to show for so far. So, as I've said before in a another thread,
don't get your hopes up prematurely - because it *might* turn out to be
a disappointment.
Ack - I've just seen that there a two more messages in this thread now.
I have read them, but I don't think I have anything more to add for now.
Let's wait till I get this plugin finished, that should answer many of
the questions (or spawn even more, who knows).
> I'll have to think 4) some more.. maybe I'm overthinking things. I'm
> having a hard time actually nailing down how it should work, and that
> means I should put it away and think about it. Ignore it for now :)
To be honest, I'm still having a hard time following you (probably
because of my ignorance towards TagglyTagging) - so I will heed your
advice and ignore this issue for now...
-- F.
Dave Gifford - TiddlyWiki in Action
Taggly Tags basically let you create a sort of hierarchical system
from the particular to the general. You create a tiddler, then tag it.
In viewing mode the tags appear at the top of the tiddler as links.
You click on the link and it creates the tiddler for that tag. Then
you can tag THAT tiddler too, and repeat the process. Each tiddler
that is referenced by other tiddlers has a sort of ForEach list of
tiddlers that reference it built into the text of the tiddler.
Example: I am using taggly tags to do a topical analysis of sorts of a
book of the Bible. So I create a tiddler for chapter one verse one
(James 1:1). I tag it with every topic that is represented by the
verse (Greeting, grace, peace, etc). Then in view mode I see greeting,
grace, peace, etc, at the top of the tiddler as links to nonexisting
tiddlers. I click on grace and a Grace tiddler is created. In the text
of the grace tiddler I see a link to the tiddler James 1:1. I decide
to tag the grace tiddler with the tag Theological words. Then in view
mode I click on the link to that tiddler to create it and I tag it
"Index".
I create the index tiddler. The index tiddler lists the only category
created so far: Theological words. But it gives me the option of
expanding that category, and I see Grace there.
See an example at file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/David%20Gifford/Desktop/NT%20TagglyTags/Judetaggly.html#Indexes
Gotta run.
Dave
FND
> from the particular to the general. You create a tiddler, then tag it.
Thanks for this explanation, Dave!
> See an example at file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/David%20Gifford/Desktop/NT%20TagglyTags/Judetaggly.html#Indexes
>
> Gotta run.
That must be why you've posted a link to your local HDD... ;)
-- F.
Kashgarinn
be integrated to work with tagglytagging as well as all tiddlers with
tag "X" and "Y"
I would like to see it as a part of Tagglytagging..
for instance, tagglytagging almost got this anyway, only for tiddlers
tagged under the tag you're at, but it's almost got it. Download mptw
and Try making lots of tiddlers all tagged in a hierarchy, Just go
crazy.. Make a tiddler called computers, write in Here's Computers,
then click the "new here" and make a few tiddlers, each for a
different computer, then under those click "new here" and make a few
tiddlers under those, whatever comes to mind just to see a hierarchy
in place which makes sense to you
In normal mode, all the tags under "computer" should be in a neat
list. Now try this: Click on "group", next to it click on
"excerpts", then "contents", then "sliders".
- What I'd like is to be able to not just click on "open" to see the
content under that tiddler, but also "open tabs" to see the tags under
that tag and so on and so forth.
- And regarding being able to filter tags, I'd like to be able to "add
tag" or "remove tag" in that tagglytagging list
- And regarding when I make new tiddlers, I'd like to be able to
enable/disable "show list of similarly tagged items" as an option :D
I'm not saying that everything you do should be in a hierarchy, or
that you should be forced to do that, it's just that for some things,
a hierarchy helps and when you don't need it, you can go tiddler-tag-
crazy
A filter system for tags which was an extension to the tagglytagging
system would be excellent.
K.
FND
> be integrated to work with tagglytagging as well as all tiddlers with
> tag "X" and "Y"
As I've said, I just wanna get the first release out the door for now.
I appreciate your input, but any further steps might or might not be
taken afterwards (and not necessarily by myself either - anyone will be
free to use and improve upon that code).
To give you a quick impression of what it can or cannot do, I've
uploaded a very early(!) version of this plugin:
http://www.autohotkey.net/~Ace_NoOne/tmp/TagNavTest.html
In case that's not obvious, it's the big box on the left; try selecting
a tag from the list.
This won't be accessible for long, so download it if you're interested.
-- F.
Dave Gifford - TiddlyWiki in Action
Sorry about that link to my hard drive. The actual link is of course
http://www.giffmex.org/Judetaggly.html#Indexes
Dave
FND
>> from the particular to the general. You create a tiddler, then tag it.
>
> Thanks for this explanation, Dave!
... but even with the corrected link (thanks for that btw), I fail to
see the point.
When I have a few quiet minutes (in about a decade or so), I'll take a
closer look, because I do know TagglyTagging deserves some attention.
-- F.
Daniel Baird
> On 01/07/07, Kashgarinn <stei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > 3) Let's say a TW grows and grows and grows, does the performance
> > decrease because of it's one-file paradigm? What are the limits to
> > the one-file paradigm, and what's the next logical step-up to
> > alleviate that?
>
I should also add that if you are sending your TiddlyWiki down the
internet tubes, fetch time might be important. So if you're building
a TiddlyWiki to act as a "regular" website, for normal web browing
people to look at, if it gets really big it might be too slow to load.
Cheers
Simon Baird
4) instead of searching for text in a tiddler, could you search for
tag-hierarchy?
Example:
<<forEachTiddler
where
' tiddler.hasAncestor("legit computer games") && tiddler.hasAncestor("friends") '
>>
All we need for this to work is the hasAncestor method. Something like this might work (untested):
merge(Tiddler.prototype,{
hasAncestor: function(ancestor) {
if (this.tags.contains(ancestor))
return true;
else {
var any = false;
for (var i=0;i<this.tags.length;i++) {
var t = store.getTiddler(this.tags[i]);
if (t && t.hasAncestor(ancestor))
any = true;
}
return any;
}
}
});
So it's not exactly a search, but the concept is the same.
--
simon...@gmail.com
Simon Baird
btw, I read the thread, and the discussion in it is very good, however
you should really try out the tagglytagging system for a few days
until you grasp its sheer brilliance. It's exactly what you want, but
instead of searching, you just browse. It took me 2 days to get it,
and about 2 weeks to understand it enough to use it comfortably.
ah. these words warm my heart.... :)
I may quote you in future mptw propaganda..
I'll have to think 4) some more.. maybe I'm overthinking things. I'm
having a hard time actually nailing down how it should work, and that
means I should put it away and think about it. Ignore it for now :)
Have faith. You are on the right path. You're on The Path. To tagging nirvana.
(See my post about ancestors).
--
simon...@gmail.com
Simon Baird
- And regarding being able to filter tags, I'd like to be able to "add
tag" or "remove tag" in that tagglytagging list
You can kind of do this if you tag the tag you want to remove with "excludeLists". It's not what you're after but might be useful.
A filter system for tags which was an extension to the tagglytagging
system would be excellent.
The hard part I think is the user interface. Do you have any ideas on how it might look? It should be easy enough to not confuse or get in the way for basic users and be "discoverable", ie you don't need the instruction manual to figure out how to use it. I guess something like this:
Tiddlers tagged as 'Foo': [name] [modified] [created] [normal] [cols+] [filter]
* This
* That
If you click filter then it expands down and you can type stuff in a text box maybe?
Tiddlers tagged as 'Foo': [name] [modified] [created] [normal] [cols+] [filter]
Enter tags to exclude[x] include[ ] [_________________________]
* This
* That
I'm worried that it's too "heavy" to warrant adding to every tagging list everywhere. Perhaps the answer is an advanced search form that lets you do these kind of tag intersections and ancestor filtering also.
Simon.
--
simon...@gmail.com
Kashgarinn
the wrong 'tube'
> I may quote you in future mptw propaganda..
Sure, go ahead, tagglytagging and the mptw look&feel is just an
excellent addition to the TW.. I couldn't live without it.. TW
wouldn't be the same.
> > - And regarding being able to filter tags, I'd like to be able to "add
> > tag" or "remove tag" in that tagglytagging list
>
> You can kind of do this if you tag the tag you want to remove with
> "excludeLists". It's not what you're after but might be useful.
Yeah, but what if you want the tiddler in some taglists, and not in
others? I feel the block/unblock should be done on the "other" end of
the father/child tree.
> > A filter system for tags which was an extension to the tagglytagging
> > system would be excellent.
> The hard part I think is the user interface. Do you have any ideas on how it
> might look? It should be easy enough to not confuse or get in the way for
> basic users and be "discoverable", ie you don't need the instruction manual
> to figure out how to use it. I guess something like this:
>
> Tiddlers tagged as 'Foo': [name] [modified] [created] [normal] [cols+]
> [filter]
> * This
> * That
>
> If you click filter then it expands down and you can type stuff in a text
> box maybe?
>
> Tiddlers tagged as 'Foo': [name] [modified] [created] [normal] [cols+]
> [filter]
> Enter tags to exclude[x] include[ ] [_________________________]
> * This
> * That
I'm thinking it differently..
Let's first address normal tagglytagging and the filtering of tags as
it's working today. Let's say you organise your tagglytag list to
have the option "groups" and "sliders" - you can then see the other
tags the tiddler is linked to, and you can see a "open >>" link next
to each tiddler.
- What if there was next to each of those tag-groups an open/close as
well? you could minimize the relevant groups you don't want to be
expanded. And as we can now close tag-groups, what if there was a
button in the "tagged as" menu that said "Hide closed groups" and all
the closed groups would then disappear? I feel this would extend
tagglytagging as it is now brilliantly.
So with this, we could remove tag-groups we didn't want from that
list.
* The grandfather tag-filter-thing. In my opinion, extending the
tagglytagging is the correct way to add a tag-filter thing which lists
tiddlers which have the tags specified, but how do do it intelligently
and easily.. I feel that a GUI would just be in the way here.. I
think a macro would be the quickest option to do this with, something
like <<tagfilterlist "name" "tag1" "tag2" "tag3">>.
But here's the question.. could this macro and tagglytagging cooperate
together? Could you make it so that this tagfilterlist would just be
added below the current group (with perhaps an option to either have
it on top, or perhaps even in its own column)?
If that would be possible, then tagglytagging would go from excellent
to Awesome.
*Extra fluff:
As we're talking about fictional macros (for now at least), I would
love to see one thing possible with the tagfilterlist macro, that is
<<tagfilterlist similartiddlers>> which would create a list of
tiddlers which have the same tags as the current tiddler.
What do you think of this proposal?
K.