TiddlyWiki Newbie/Beginners group needed

[ratbagradio]

I'm no dumb dumb in matters IT but the exchanges here are usually
above my head --and this is not the TiddlyWiki developers group!

I think TiddlyWiki is simply fantastic and has changed my web
lifestyle -- but it is a hard learning curve for most who may be
interested in it.So I'm suggesting that what we all need is another
Goggle Group dedicated to Newbie's -- Tiddlywiki 101 / Beginning
TiddlyWiki -- where people can start before they sign on here.

The other disadvantage with this group is that it is so busy and that
makes it a little inacccesible. I also find the SEARCH function a tad
shallow -- but thats' nonetheless how I use it: I search for key words
to suit my need.

[This may be why a Web Forum may be preferable for a sort of FAQ like
this rather than a egoup. That way you can clip important exchanges
and engineer foucus]

Any TiddlyWiki for Beginners group should dovetail with a TiddlyWiki
showcase so people can s display their tiddlyfications.


I learn stuff as I go by relying on egroup discussons and it is the
best way to relate to problems and platforms. But this group scores
very low as a means toward that end because TiddlyWiki si so new, open
and responsive when yous start to really engage with it you are going
to get the discussion that goes on here. Thats' great -- but it leaves
newbies behind..


I am concerned about that a s I'm trying to gedt my coleagues to adopt
and explore the power of TiddlyWiki -- journalists, researchers,
community orgs, etc -- and as a sort of "blogging mentor" I can see
the problems that exist when you first decide to relate to
TiddlyWiki .

[Morris Gray]

Dear RatBagradio,

A few of us know exactly your present state of mind. It is quickly
becoming what is known as the 'TiddlyWiki Tick'. The overwhelming
feeling that you are onto something important having discovered
TiddlyWiki. It's a nagging feeling that you could create wonders if
you could just get your head around it.

The next phase of the 'tick' (besides the uncontrollable head jerking
and the drooling) is that if there was just some proper documentation,
starting at the right level, all would become clear; new horizons
would open and you could take TiddlyWiki to the outer-reaches where
software has never gone before.

But alas, TiddlyWiki will never be tamed in such a way. Many have
tried to break this wild stallion by brute force, by caressing and
nurturing, begging, crying; even TiddlyWiki whisperers have tried.

The tertiary stage is setting about documenting it in your own style,
learning it as you go and putting it down in a way you understand it,
and hopefully, many of a like mind will understand it in your style.

Many have tried at the beginners level as we each perceived it.

Me: http://twhelp.tiddlyspot.com
Dave Gifford: http://www.giffmex.org/twfortherestofus.html
Julie Starr: http://tiddlertoddler.tiddlyspot.com/
Even an intelligent combined group: http://www.tiddlywiki.org/
And gobs more on all levels at: http://twhelp.tiddlyspot.com/#OtherHelpSites

The truth is that TiddlyWiki can do almost anything, therefore there
is no beginners level and no one is an accomplished expert; for the
goal post of really knowing TiddlyWiki only moves farther away the
closer you get.

Start an explanatory TiddlyWiki at http://tiddlyspot.com and explain
it the best way you can... you have nothing to lose and we will all
gain by your efforts.

Morris Gray
http://twhelp.tiddlyspot.com
A TiddlyWiki help file for beginners

[ratbagradio]

Well Morris them's good stuff in w hat you say and I can relate to
that.I value the twhelp, giffmex, (tiddlertodler is new to me) etyc
and your words are very wise.
So I reckon you need to put this post of yours on the group main page
-- as a resource.

My preferred recourse is to Google Tiddlywiki + "a search parameter"
as, as I suggest, the SEARCH function for thsi group while always
useful is often quite shallow.

A Mycrioft for Tiddlywiki would be very handy...

[Morris Gray]

On Mar 12, 9:00 pm, ratbagradio <ratbagra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My preferred recourse is to Google Tiddlywiki + "a search parameter"
> as, as I suggest, the SEARCH function for thsi group while always
> useful is often quite shallow.

Shallow it may be; but, there is an old Polish saying; "You can never
step into the same river twice."

And even more importantly as Confucius says; "It is better to travel
hopefully than to arrive." Enjoy your ignorance.

Morris Gray
http://twhelp.tiddlyspot.com
A TiddlyWiki help file for beginners

[Eric Weir]

On 3/11/08 ratbagradio wrote:

I think TiddlyWiki is simply fantastic and has changed my web
lifestyle -- but it is a hard learning curve for most who may be
interested in it.So I'm suggesting that what we all need is another
Goggle Group dedicated to Newbie's -- Tiddlywiki 101 / Beginning
TiddlyWiki -- where people can start before they sign on here.

The other disadvantage with this group is that it is so busy and that
makes it a little inacccesible. I also find the SEARCH function a tad
shallow -- but thats' nonetheless how I use it: I search for key words
to suit my need.
....
I am concerned about that a s I'm trying to gedt my coleagues to adopt
and explore the power of TiddlyWiki -- journalists, researchers,
community orgs, etc -- and as a sort of "blogging mentor" I can see
the problems that exist when you first decide to  relate  to

Suspect I'm more of an IT dumb dumb than you. I certainly agree about the difficulties of helping others -- I'm interested in similar types of people, using TiddlyWiki in the context of similar kinds of work -- appreciate the potential of TiddlyWiki.

However, I have not found my being a dumb dumb a problem here. If I don't understand -- and mostly right not I mostly don't -- I ask. I never fail to get a helpful answer, explanation, or solution, usually within minutes, always offered in a helpful manner, by someone -- often more than one someone -- who obviously genuinely wants to help.

My thought about introducing TiddlyWiki to people we feel certain would appreciate if only they had our appreciation is rather to put together simple, basic TiddlyWiki applications tailored to the audiences to whom we want to introduce it.

If people can start right off using TiddlyWiki for some basic tasks, they will quickly sense the potential, and start asking questions about how to do things they'd like to do, now that they do see the potential.

At that point, the support infrastructure is already in place to help them. E.g., this forum, and the multiple helpful TiddlyWiki-based TiddlyWiki help sites, such as TiddlyTools, TiddlyWiki for the rest of us, and on and on and on.

Just my two cents.

Regards,

---

Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

[Eric Weir]

On 3/12/08 Morris Gray wrote:

Start an explanatory TiddlyWiki at http://tiddlyspot.com and explain
it the best way you can... you have nothing to lose and we will all
gain by your efforts.

Great post, Morris. I am at that head-jerking and drooling stage. To the point that, as not infrequently happens, "real work" is getting neglected.

[Actually not. Had a meeting last night that unexpectedly, but not surprisingly, broke open the dam for some of us who've been trying to do something that's very appealing but more than a little complicated with a larger group of people and organizations -- that in spite of the fact that for the last five days I just been Tiddling around.]

[Eric Weir]

On 3/12/08 ratbagradio wrote:

My preferred recourse is to Google Tiddlywiki + "a search parameter"
as, as I suggest, the SEARCH function for thsi group while always
useful is often quite shallow.

Haven't had much occasion, yet, to use it, but I suspect that when I do I'm gonna find myself in agreement.

One of my first posts here was about seeing TiddlyWiki as a potential replacement for me on Linux for a Windows-based free-form database application in which I've been collecting information on contacts for almost 20 years.

The application is InfoSelect. It's much more than a free-form database, especially in it's later versions. I have an older version, and use only the free-form database function. Even though the data is free-form, InfoSelect's search function is really nifty. I hit F5, IS opens a window with a grid, each cell of which represents a note in the database. At the beginning of the search all the cells are red. As you type a character string into the search field, "the lights start going out" in the cells that don't contain the string.

I most searches a unique note/contact is identified within seconds, i.e., two or three. Alternatively, if you don't know a unique string, one that's common to several notes/contacts will identify a few from which the unique one for which you're searching can easily be identified visually. IS can also do boolean searches, though I have rarely found it necessary, and I have a very large database.

May be too much to hope for, but I'd like to see this capability replicated in TiddlyWiki at some point. [I will be only mildly surprised if somebody says, "Here, try this plugin.]

[Nicolas Syssoieff]

Hey Eric,

I have never been trying InfoSelect myself, but if you set aside the visual aspect of it that you describe, you could achieve most of what you describe simply with the SearchOptionsPlugin (which does nothing but enhance massively the search feature).

Within the plugin options, you can specify :
- where to search (in tiddlers titles, text, tags, or any combination of these)
- if you want to search in shadow tiddlers or not (useful to not waste your time if you know that what you are searching belongs to your content and not to the TW-core shadowed tiddlers)
- activate or disable incremental searching (incremental searching is if you are searching for "hello" and type slowly, you will have the answers for "he", then "hell", then "hello", each time having to wait; very useful, but it can also be a pain if you are searching through a lot of information in your TW)
- have results presented in a results tiddler.

All in all, if you activate the two last options above, you can get this behavior :
- focus on the searchbox
- type in what you search, only type slowly because it will not be as fast as your windows app.
- when you reach three letters minimum, view an "evolving-as-you-type" SearchResults tiddler containing the list of all tiddlers that contain your search.
- Once your search is satisfactory, simply move your mouse to the tiddlers list in SearchResults, and click on the tiddler you like.

I think this is very close to the scenario you are trying to achieve.

Enjoy !
Nicolas.

[koyut]

I started on tiddlywiki a few months ago to make a sort of mini wiki
for the previous company I worked for. As a beginner then I have tried
to ask questions in this group and people have responded. The only
downside is that some posts are timely as you would have hoped but
nonetheless they still give great support taking into consideration
that they are not paid to do this. I am not familiar with javascript
so I constantly frequent this group to see about updated/new plugins
and support.

Learning tiddlywiki is like learning html. When you start you learn
about tags and what they do exactly. But they don't teach you how you
should make your site, your options are limited to your imagination
and skills. Like tiddlywiki, you may have a variety of uses for this
little piece of ingenuity, as a personal free from notebook, website,
blog, personal wiki, etc. Take the plugins as an example, people
develop the plugins that focus more on their application of tiddlywiki
itself. Different uses require different approaches to customize
tiddlywiki.

To get to the point separating the beginners from the seasoned users
will hinder the ability of the group to teach and learn as a whole.
The most productive approach would be to make an ultimate tiddlywiki
guide with the collaboration of the whole group. There are a lot of
guides out there and they provide you with the necessary instructions
to help you customize tiddlywiki to suit your needs but they are all
in different sites and different styles, you have to check for updates
or browse another site to find what you exactly need. tiddlywiki.org
has a lot of guides and link to sites but it lacks the collaborated
content on the site itself. The plugins also have different sources
and there really is no master list that everyone could check all of
the available plugins and its updates (not the source of the plugins
just a master list).

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. Thank you to all the people who help new users like me. Plus I
really like MPTW

[FND]

> So I'm suggesting that what we all need is another
> Goggle Group dedicated to Newbie's -- Tiddlywiki 101 / Beginning
> TiddlyWiki -- where people can start before they sign on here.

I understand where you're coming from, but experience shows that a
separate group would do more harm than good. Also, abandoning Google
Groups in favor of a web-based forum would have a significant impact on
participation, since many people (including myself) prefer to use e-mail
for posting rather than visit a website.*

These issues have been discussed and tried before, and it simply doesn't
work out in practical terms, for a number of reasons (e.g. we're already
having trouble drawing a clear distinction between the end-users' and
the developers' groups sometimes).

Ideally, complete beginners could get started by visiting an
introductory page on the community wiki (http://www.tiddlywiki.org) -
unfortunately, we're still far from that point, and it's gonna take a
while to get there. (Contributions are welcome though!)

-- F.

* As far as I know, there is no viable forum/mailing-list hybrid other
than Google Groups.

[Jon Hind]

I think tiddlywiki comes into the 'step learning' category.

 

Like learning a language - you suddenly realise you get it but didn't notice the step you took up to get there. And look at thiose below you on the steps and know they will go through a similar process.

 

 

Jon

 

--
Jon

[Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/]

I find the comments on this thread closely mirror what my own learning
process was with TW:

Stage 1: Wow this is great, but very steep learning curve.
Stage 2: I want others to discover this, but they will need a better
tutorial - hence TW for the rest of us
Stage 3: Teaching them how to use it doesn't show them what can be
done with it - hence TW in Action showcase

If TiddlyWiki were my career I would try to follow this group closely
and update my tutorial, or help create the official wiki at
tiddlywiki.org. But since I am an outsider to this process and have a
day job and only do this as I have time, and since the real luminaries
are all involved in many TW-related projects, there probably won't
ever be a thorough documentation site, unfortunately.

I find that with anything, a persona q and a session is preferable to
digging through a faq wiki. So since we have the luminaries willing to
answer qs here, let's just enjoy it while it lasts.

But sooner or later the luminaries will need to realize that their
lives are finite. The apostles will need to commit their gospel to
scripture before they are no longer able to stand by the Google groups
to answer qs. And a new generation of apostles will need to grab the
baton too. Hopefully that day is still far off. But the day will come
nonetheless, so those involved need to set that up.

Dave

[FND]

> But sooner or later the luminaries will need to realize that their
> lives are finite. The apostles will need to commit their gospel to
> scripture before they are no longer able to stand by the Google groups
> to answer qs.

I entirely agree - but that statement makes it sound far too simple.

> I find that with anything, a persona q and a session is preferable to
> digging through a faq wiki.

Depends on the subject matter - if it's a generic issue, a reference
documentation might actually be more useful and comprehensive.
Individual, specific issues should still be discussed here on the group,
of course.

> I am an outsider to this process and have a
> day job and only do this as I have time

That's how it works for all of us - which is why this doesn't seem to
gain traction.
As for being an outsider, I understand this as a community effort, and
you're a longstanding and valuable member of this community. Not that
I'm trying to pressure you (or anyone) to commit to anything - just
pointing out that nobody here is supposed to feel like an outsider.

-- F.

[Eric Weir]

Curious -- What email client produces this kind of quotation indicator?

---

Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

[FND]

> Curious -- What email client produces this kind of quotation indicator?

Thunderbird, plain-text format.

-- F.

[Eric Weir]

On 3/14/08 FND wrote:

Curious -- What email client produces this kind of quotation indicator?
  

Thunderbird, plain-text format.
  

Thanks, I use Thunderbird, too. Wish it was n option in HTML. I hate the bright blue line you get with it.

[FND]

> Thanks, I use Thunderbird, too. Wish it was n option in HTML. I hate the
> bright blue line you get with it.

Frankly, for mailing-list posts it's usually safer to use plain-text
format anyway (by holding SHIFT when clicking on Reply or Compose).
But Thunderbird is very much customizable - I'm sure your issue can be
solved (e.g. check http://mozillazine.org).

-- F.