Range or Speed?

[Jerome Daoust]

From this posting:
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/msg/df77d83e001e117f

Craig Weakley (Marketing at Optibike) asks...

Question for you all:
What is more important with respect to E-bikes? - Range or Speed?

Would you rather be able to ride at 25-30 mph for 2-3 hours or 40 mph
for an hour?
Pretend you can't have both.

[Jerome Daoust]

Replies captured from the other topic...

From: lowco2
40mph for an hour. Then recharge at work and 40 mph for an hour home.
Speed, baby, speed!
--John
Actually that would be 40 mph for 24 min which would get me to work,
then recharge and 40 mph for the next 24 min home. NO QUESTION.
--J


From: OptOut
Range for me, but the big caviot is that's on my TF that handles
like
a tank at 100 lbs. Good chance if i rode a sporty opti I would be
happier with higher speed. I've not been comfortable with high
speed
on my TF since I fell last year.
Best, Joe (mobile)

[Jerome Daoust]

To get answers, I think the question should be turned around into:
How much time do you plan to ride your bike between recharges?

As already seen in the previous responses, people are basing their
replies based on their ride time.
From a typical ride time, then people just want the maximum
sustainable speed.

Ride time is predictable for those mainly using their bike for a
commute. But for mostly recreational riders (my case) who have ride
time with great variation, then they will be forced to pick based on
the worst-case-scenario and go for the extended range.

For the Optibike, I wish one could be able to quickly swap out the
internal battery (for a spare one). This would allow 2 things:
1) Reduce transport weight (an issue for some bike carriers).
2) Allow the rider to keep riding weight to a minimum (unlike relying
on a touring package battery), while having the possibility to swap
out the primary battery for a fresh one. This could be good in 2
scenarios:
a) Short-ish route loop under the range of the primary battery where
the rider can use a waiting fresh battery in his vehicle.
b) The commuter who spends little time (not enough to recharge a
depleted battery) at work, and can keep a battery charging at both
ends of his commute.
The problem becomes how to maintain the structural rigidity of the
frame which encases the battery, yet allow an access method to swap
the battery. But aren't technical challenges fun?

[Tor Atle Lunde]

2008/9/5 Jerome Daoust <EyesTo...@gmail.com>:

> Craig Weakley (Marketing at Optibike) asks...
>
> Question for you all:
> What is more important with respect to E-bikes? - Range or Speed?
>
> Would you rather be able to ride at 25-30 mph for 2-3 hours or 40 mph
> for an hour?
> Pretend you can't have both.

Wouldn't this question be more relevant if the Opti had a hub motor?
In that case they would design it to be most efficient at a certain
speed. But to answer I would have range, 30mph is sufficient for my
use.

Tor Atle

[Bike_on]

I'm with John - Speed.

I reluctantly (costs) went for the 800W instead of the 600W and it
still cannot reach my goal of a 30mph average. Also, to get the
gearing range, something would have to change to meet that need.

I feel very safe on the opti riding in the mid-upper 30's. At 40mph,
I feel a little cautions on the aeros. To maintain 40mph in the
upright position would cost in Whr/mi.

I guy at work gust got an Aprilla 2-stroke scooter. After break in,
it will cruise 45-52mph, but he has 5hp!



On Sep 5, 7:33 pm, "Tor Atle Lunde" <toratle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/9/5 Jerome Daoust <EyesToThe...@gmail.com>:

[Bike_on]

PS. Craig - I think you guys have the range thing covered with the
aux pack plug in. However, Jerome has a good point about hauling the
extra weight.

Typical Riding Time: This is another good point. How long does the
typical rider want to sit on the saddle? How much extension should an
e-bike provide? How much longer (time and distance) should the Opti
outperform the competition in order to set itself apart?
I suggest 2hrs going as fast as possible would be my choice and
meet about any need. If I go further, I will get another battery or
recharge.

Dan

[pierrino]

An important consideration is local laws, at 40mph they're gonna make
you get a licsense, insurance. Past a certain age they'll retest you
every year.
There are many electric scooters,motorcycles that can far exceed 40mph
without any pedaling, but what you lose, with just the pure speed of
these devices and the abbreviated travel time is the sense of
adventure and life saving exercise that prolonged pedaling gives you.
There is a bubbling joy of powerful mysterious mechanistic synergy
that one gets from prolonged collaboration with a well functioning
machine. A sense--perhaps self induced, of preternatural, superhuman
strength. You would still get this at 40mph but there would be so much
trepidation about road obstacles--an unseen dead cat in the road at
that speed might be a problem. Now, I hear that the Opti motor is
noisy but it can't be anything like the grating,stacatto irritation of
a Vespa;there are many secret sights of shy wildlife that only bike
riders see, but perhaps less at 40mph.
At the end of any prolonged bike ride there is an endorphinic
euphoria,you smugly know that you have done several good things for
yourself: you have enjoyed superb and prolonged aerobic conditioning,
you have spent little money,you have envenomed the environment less
than you might have, you have liberated yourself from
petroenslavement, but at 40mph you blur past the world, past, for
instance a whole stand of redolent Wisteria with little experience of
the flowers;at 20 you might be seduced into slowing, even stopping.
All of that said I would like to know I could go 40 if I needed to.
Pierrino

[thesaxman]

Pierrino,
You could not have said that better. Excellent post. Let's open this
discussion:
Not a 40mph option, but 60. Then not 60, but 80. Where do we stop,
folks? The technology is on the horizon. Are we ebiking then, or just
plummeting to our next destination? Don't get me wrong, I love going
fast. But is there such a thing as too fast? I have some experience
here.

When I got my 800 motor, certain things became a little too easy. When
I can back off the pedals, but keep going quite fast, I usually will
succumb to that temptation. Riding my Opti definitely became easier.
That's one reason for my recent post about Opti in Economy mode. I
wanted to find out if anyone else is experiencing the 800 watt motor
at less than it's fastest pace.

It's of great interest to me that there are so many scientists,
engineers, authors, and artists who ebike. What is up with that? I
think I know. We're an inquisitive bunch. Thinkers, maybe
introspectors. We like to think our thoughts, and love to be amazed at
the beauty of nature around us and the machine below us. It has put us
in our flying dreams.

Is anything lost at 40mph? How about 50, or 60?

I will break your rules, Craig, and ask for fast mode at 40 for one
hour, and 25-30 for 2-3 hours in Eco mode. I want it both ways.
Keith

[John Pinette]

If I lived in a state that had no cars, perfectly paved roads and less
government regulations, I think 40mph for an hour would be great.
Unfortunately that's not the case. For me, 40mph would still regulate the
bike to the edge of most roads, where the bad pavement and road debris is.
Of course, one can always throttle back.

Riding a bicycle with a DOT approved helmet can't be much fun either, which
would be required in Massachusetts where I live. I'm seriously considering
ordering a Optibike. Massachusetts has the 750Watt limit on e-bikes,
however, I'm pretty sure I could get away with getting a 800Li because of
the stealth factor. I don't think I could ride under the radar at 40mph
(50-60mph downhill?).

So given all that I'd vote for more range. However, having not owned an
e-bike, my opinion can only count so much. I do have lots of experience
riding my Yamaha FZ6 motorcycle with its 75,000 Watt motor and :)

John

[deerfencer1]

I'll cast my vote with Keith and Joe for range over that kind of speed
any day. IMO 40 mph is WAY too fast for a bike to average--and this is
coming from someone who loves nothing more than occasionally spanking
the blacktop in the mid-30's range.

But 40 mph AVERAGE? I don't think so. Selling a bike that fast to the
general public is a lawsuit waiting to happen IMO. I have trouble even
taking in air at that speed, never mind handling an unexpected
maneuver should a pothole, woodchuck, or aggressive/careless driver
suddenly appear.

A top motor speed into the low 30's is plenty, especially given the
Opti's freewheeling capability. My fastest (short sprint-type) rides
on Uma have been in the 32 mph range, and that pace is about as fast
as I'd feel safe with on public roads. Anything much above that pushes
the machine well out of the e-bike category IMO, and into e-
motorcycleville. Which is ok if it's sold and configured as such, and
meets all the federal safety requirements.

LH

P.S. I just cut and pasted this from the other folder, and thank
Jerome for moving the topic here into its own. (I'd encourage other
members to do the same when/as they see the need.)

I also just read Pierinno's superb post about something being lost at
those higher speeds and couldn't agree more. These bikes are GREAT fun
at intermittent high speeds but it's the variety that makes it so IMO.
And as Keith points out, give a guy too much power and he simply stops
pedaling, or just goes through the motions.

Give me 1) the torque/power to do steepish climbs (with pedal effort)
at 20 mph or so and 2) a high speed assist capability into the 35 mph
range (with pedaling) and I'd be a very happy camper indeed. (This is
exactly what's behind my eternal search for the ideal battery for Uma
as I'm convinced she can fill the bill fed the right juice.) Seems to
me anything much stronger than that ignores/overrides the Opti's
freewheeling advantages over bikes like the TFX and e+, so doesn't
really make much sense from an engineering standpoint.

Bottom line: I have felt the magic magnetic pull of the Wavecrest
motor into the mid-30's on fast flats or with a good tailwind and will
attest that it is an intoxicating experience, but you can't
realistically expect to do an hour's ride at that pace IMO unless you
had very unusual conditions, namely a clear open road you were very
familiar with, with no traffic (or lurking critters in the bushes).

LH

[Bike_on]

Keith and Joe remind us of the pleasures of riding. BUT, the question
should be "How fast/far CAN or SHOULD a bike go?" apart from how we
want to use it.

It is similar to to when I complain to my liberal/progressive friends
about content on TV and the Hollywood elite, they just tell me to
"Turn off the TV." So, I'll play the liberal and say, "just throttle
less, pedal more if that is what you want."

The Opti is very comfortable at 35mph on a highway road, well paved,
good visibility. Pushing it to 40 would be exhilarating like the
first time you go 30mph after riding only 15mph.

Average 40? Too fast. Max 40? Ok with a low 30's average. Then
with a time range of 1 hr, or about 32 miles.

I STRONGLY prefer to have a bike commute between 30-45 min. Now it is
about 1 hr. Doing 2hrs a day is 10hrs of exercise a week. I have a
few spots, in certain places where I take it all in. But after a few
days commuting, the squirrels and deer aren't cute anymore, I need to
get to work.

DR

[pierrino]

Craig has given us the narrowed choice however, of speed versus range,
implying that the two are mutually antagonistic, that our response
might influence future Opti policy and stipulating that, at least for
the purpose of this interogatory, we can't have both.
But it occurs to me that the bike that could go 40 for an hour must
also be capable of 20 or even more for two. The blandishments of the
viscious plethora of modern inconveinces has somehow tricked us:
because we can go faster and faster, do many more things
simultaeneously (sic) we cram more and more into spiritually vacuous
time frames. We have accelerated our bodies past the ability of our
souls to keep up. And at our backs we always hear time's winged
chariot hurrying near, to paraphrase Marvel.
Pierrino

> > LH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[pierrino]

The DOT Helmet raises another prob.. Here in frightening LA, regular
bike helmets at even the slightly higher speeds of 25-30mph seem a
little flimsy. Come off the bike at even these speeds and you need a
full face Shoei or Bell. But the exertion of pedaling with one of
these Prisoner in the Iron mask type torture devices would drown the
head and shoulders in cascades of putrid prespiration. Next we need
leathers, heavy gloves--valga me Dios.
Pierrino

> > Tor Atle- Hide quoted text -

[Keith Felch]

I have a downhill bike helmet on order. I'll let you all know how it works
out. It might look a little funny, but my face will survive an impact much
better.
Keith

[OptOut]

Having voted for range, I should mention I'm a guy that has enjoyed
going 75 MPH on a 70 cc super tuned Vespa scooter.
I would vote for speed if we were talking about a motorcycle.
I used to hit top speeds in the low 40s daily on my commute on the TF
and on my fun runs. I notice now I usually stay below 40. I've had one
serious accident and many close calls including cars and a near miss
this year with a large unpredictable deer.
Besides everything else, on light weight aluminum equipment there are
bound to be mechanical failures eventually. I fell at near 35 mph last
year on flat straight asphalt with no cars involved due to unexpected
mechanical failure of my rear rack forcing my rear fender into the
tire and ripping the fender from some of it's mounts so it rotated and
jammed under the rear wheel. You have to expect things like this will
occasionally happen if you ride a lot. Most bicycle parts aren't
designed for the stresses they get at the high speeds and weights
we're subjecting them to with powerful electric motors and heavy
batteries. We blur the line between motorcycles and bicycles with
these machines and certainly your surroundings and experience
(training) should dictate how fast you go using common sense. The laws
will catch up to our electrics as they already have in many places.
But we will influence those laws in a very bad way if we get involved
in accidents that get noticed or make it into the news headlines.
I'd like to see legal motorcycle lighting on our bicycles, including
turn signals. At least as an option. Especially for those of us who
ride at night. But good for being seen in daytime too.
Helmet laws show how loud people can change laws even in a bad way.
Most states no longer require helmets for motorcycle riding. To me
that's crazy. And the motorcycle noise laws are a joke, at least here
in NY and CT. every Harley immediately gets an illegal tailpipe before
it leaves the store. I digress.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

On Sep 6, 2008, at 12:33 PM, "John Pinette" <perfpix...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> If I lived in a state that had no cars, perfectly paved roads and
> less government regulations, I think 40mph for an hour would be
> great. Unfortunately that's not the case. For me, 40mph would still
> regulate the bike to the edge of most roads, where the bad pavement
> and road debris is. Of course, one can always throttle back.
>
> Riding a bicycle with a DOT approved helmet can't be much fun
> either, which would be required in Massachusetts where I live. I'm
> seriously considering ordering a Optibike. Massachusetts has the
> 750Watt limit on e-bikes, however, I'm pretty sure I could get away
> with getting a 800Li because of the stealth factor. I don't think I
> could ride under the radar at 40mph (50-60mph downhill?).
>
> So given all that I'd vote for more range. However, having not
> owned an e-bike, my opinion can only count so much. I do have lots
> of experience riding my Yamaha FZ6 motorcycle with its 75,000 Watt
> motor and :)
>
> John
>

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bike_on" <thero...@verizon.net>

[Tracy Talley]

Well said Joe.

Tracy

[lowco2]

Yes, well said, Joe.
I'll add my $0.02. And I'll note here that I am a licensed motorcycle
rider, have been since 1980 and have totaled two motorcycles, the last
of which was a "pocket rocket" Honda CBR600F. That machine could do
140 mph. I will also add that I spent 6.5 years as a firefighter/
paramedic in CA from 1982-89.
Yes, the speeds we reach on these bikes are approaching dangerous. I
have also seen people die from head injuries incurred when they rode a
normal bicycle off a curb and fell without a helmet. Stuff happens and
if your number's up, your number's up.
As I've said, I commute on my e-bike (and sometimes on my regular
one) and the start of my commute is a big hill with cars, but a very
wide shoulder. The car speed limit is 55 there and I routinely hit 40
without motor or pedaling. It's steep. I'd say it's a dangerous place
no matter what. Even with a kevlar motorcycle helmet, if I got hit by
someone adjusting their iPod instead of watching the road, I'd be
toast. The only true safety is eternal vigilance and care. As I've
said, I don't play music or mess with my cycle computer or hrm or
anything. In fact, I wear my watch under my sleeve (in cooler weather
anyway) so I'm not even tempted to look at it.
On the motorcycle, you had the same dangers, and only two things to
get you out of trouble (three if you count the above-mentioned
vigilance): good breaks and good acceleration. On my e-bike I'd want
the same. I think speed must give me that advantage.
The last point (and reason for speed) is that greater speed on flats
translates (I think) to greater, although lower, speed on hills. This
is where I want the real speed. My logic on this is that to get to 40
you'd need a lot more power than to keep 30 due to the much higher
wind resistance, so I think that power will get me from 22 (now) to
maybe 27+ with the higher speed machine. That will shorten my commute
a lot. Hence my argument for speed over range.
Cheers,
--John

> On Sep 6, 2008, at 12:33 PM, "John Pinette" <perfpix.sig...@gmail.com>  

> wrote:
>
>
>
> > If I lived in a state that had no cars, perfectly paved roads and  
> > less government regulations, I think 40mph for an hour would be  
> > great. Unfortunately that's not the case.  For me, 40mph would still  
> > regulate the bike to the edge of most roads, where the bad pavement  
> > and road debris is. Of course, one can always throttle back.
>
> > Riding a bicycle with a DOT approved helmet can't be much fun  
> > either, which would be required in Massachusetts where I live.  I'm  
> > seriously considering ordering a Optibike.  Massachusetts has the  
> > 750Watt limit on e-bikes, however, I'm pretty sure I could get away  
> > with getting a 800Li because of the stealth factor.  I don't think I  
> > could ride under the radar at 40mph (50-60mph downhill?).
>
> > So given all that I'd vote for more range.  However, having not  
> > owned an e-bike, my opinion can only count so much.  I do have lots  
> > of experience riding my Yamaha FZ6 motorcycle with its 75,000 Watt  
> > motor and  :)
>
> > John
>

> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bike_on" <therowe...@verizon.net>

[Bike_on]

You guys are going to make me sell my Opti right now! Alas, Joe,
John, your fears and warning are true and real.

Joe- I had my 30+mph mechanical failure last year - painful and
scary. For some eternal purpose (keeping the Opti in perspective) I
had to wait a year to get my bike. I can't really add anything to
your points or John's - It kind of makes the bike laws look good:
anything over 20mph is getting dangerous and needs extra attention
beyond bicycles.

Happy and safe riding,

Dan

PS. My continued vigiliance with speeds and recording is to benchmark
the Opti as the Highest Performer Ebike in the world. If a 43 year
old can commute 4-5x a week at 50mile rt, ave, 24-26mph, then let that
be a measure for future Optis and competitors.

[pierrino]

There are dangerous roads and dangerous intersections--Harvey Woien
and I have been riding: BSA's, BMW's Cushman's Schwinn's Hawthorne's,
Columbia's Mustang's Honda's, since 1947 without serious incident. One
advangtage the bicycle rider always has is he can become a pedestrian
at will, walk his bike through dangerous places. Here in wretched LA
pedestrians are supposed to always have the right of way. I become a
pedestrian when I gotta.
Pierrino

[OptOut]

How much you want for it ;-)

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[deerfencer1]

Great comments all--especially Joe's and John's. I concur completely,
particularly regarding Joe's note re blurring the line between bikes
and motorcycles. Obviously those of us riding Optis and/or TFX bikes
are into that nebulous, oh-so-fun category where we can rip across
some fast flats at close to 40 mph. But the danger factor increases
exponentially at these speeds and I was impressed by the precautions
and awareness John uses on his every day rides, and applaud him for
it. Interesting how many e-riders come from a motorcycling background
(personally I don't). I also completely agree with John on the hill-
climbing issue, which was what I too was trying to get at in a
previous post.

Note to Craig: It ain't the high speeds per se we're after, it's the
ability to clean the clock on steep grades and keep on truckin. IOW
it's the oomph factor on grades that differentiates an ok e-bike from
a great one.

Side note: I did my all-time favorite ride today up Skiff Mountain in
Kent, CT, about 10 miles north of where I live. Had to cart the bike
up to the base via car since my range is limited, but the 3-4 mile
climb to the top is both gorgeous and brutal. Three very steep short
grades to the top in which I slowed to 9 mph in parts and pushing my
53-28 for all it was worth, but the reward is always worth it: Acres
upon acres of waving goldenrod meadows surrounding a high kettle swamp
on top, with clear blue skies and nary an ICE-mobile in sight (or
sound!). Sweet.

My Enersys Odyssey SLAs continue to perform like champs, and I can't
remember the last time I had a cutout. Put in about 25 hard miles and
was able to do the extended climb at close to 17 mph average from
bottom to top. If only these batts were 1/2 the weight! Here's hoping
the LiFepos coming down the road are as robust and close to these
ideal weight parameters--namely 50% lighter than SLAs. I want power
and robustness, pure and simple. The Point One lipolys I've been
through had power but not longevity.

LH

[OptOut]

Larry,
Today was a beautiful day for riding!

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[thes...@cox.net]

From Larry's post:

"Note to Craig: It ain't the high speeds per se we're after, it's the
ability to clean the clock on steep grades and keep on truckin. IOW
it's the oomph factor on grades that differentiates an ok e-bike from
a great one. "

Well said. I concur.
Keith

[OptOut]

Great point Larry!
Indeed if it weren't for the hills I'd be very happy on a non-assist
bicycle.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[Bike_on]

How much are people willing to pay for a late model Optibike? Not
much volume out there.

On Sep 7, 10:41 pm, OptOut <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How much you want for it ;-)
>
> Best,
> Joe (mobile)
>

[deerfencer1]

> Indeed if it weren't for the hills I'd be very happy on a non-assist
> bicycle.
>
> Best,
> Joe (mobile)

Ditto, Joe.

As I've stated here before, one of the huge pluses of a powerful e-
bike
if the ability to tackle terrain you wouldn't dream of on a pedal-only
bike. Skiff Mountain is a perfect example, and I've yet to see a
roadie in this area, despite its good roads, low traffic, and natural
beauty, and can only guess that it's the grades that keep them away.

The other huge plus of a decent quality e-bike is getting the comfort
and versatility of a mountain bike or cruiser, but at road bike
speeds--or better. And those chubby tires most of us are riding extend
the riding season by months, at least here in the northeast, where
sandy roads and patchy ice keep most roadies inside most of the
winter.

It's amazing to me that this "sport" hasn't caught on more, and that
in fact most Americans don't even know it exists!

Cheers,

Larry

> ...
>
> read more »

[OptOut]

All in good time Larry,

When I started working on computers very few people knew what one was
or what such a strange thing could possibly be used for.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[deerfencer1]

On Sep 8, 9:45 am, Bike_on <therowe...@verizon.net> wrote:
> How much are people willing to pay for a late model Optibike? Not
> much volume out there.
>

Optis will always be a small niche market IMO, as great as they are.
Hard enough getting most people to part with a grand for a bike, never
mind $8-10,000, especially in this economic environment. And it looks
like the UK is right behind us, unfortunately...

LH

[Richard Papa]

Registering your 40mph Optibike as an LPM (Low Powered Moped) is a necessary
evolution in my humble opinion. The bike handles like NOTHING I have tried
at that speed! You really do not realize you are doing 40mph! On a TF you
know about it. The high end components play a big part in this.

So I say an LPM version is definitely the right direction. It's a massive
market waiting to be tapped and why not add Optibikes to this category? It's
miles better than anything else on offer (IMO).

Take care,

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On

[Dave Macdougall]

Not wanting to be negative and there is no bigger advocate of high end
ebikes than me. But the first thing we need to get absolutely right is
reliability and fix ability. A journey to work on a high end ebike is a
pleasure, incredibly healthy for both mind and body, done it, seen it, felt
it.
How many early adopters have we lost? Keith did the maths with his car
servicing costs the sums add up and we get healthier as well. But when they
don't work are broken the maths rapidly go the other way. Try explaining to
a sceptical spouse that the hundreds and hundreds of pounds or dollars spent
was wise.
We know the names of the guys who had problems and got angry and gave up or
just walked away.
Most of us are also members of other groups and the same is said for all of
them.
The high end producers at the moment have a real responsibility to the
future of ebikes.
Yes im a little bit peeved ive been without my M for the whole summer but I
have watched guys disappear due to problems and I want them back.
As always just thinking out loud
Cheers
DaveM

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On

Behalf Of OptOut
Sent: 08 September 2008 16:43
To: TidalForce Forum
Subject: [TF] Re: Range or Speed?

[OptOut]

Rich would tap that!
Sorry Rich, you bring out the silly kid in me. Probably doesn't
translate the same over the pond?

Best,
Joe (mobile)

On Sep 8, 2008, at 2:12 PM, "Richard Papa" <papa...@btconnect.com>
wrote: