Schwinn Bike

[j...@cableone.net]

http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=888 This bike
looks interesting to because it looks good and it should have good
support for the bike if anything goes wrong. A couple of questions
regarding the bike (if I may ask this wise group):

(1) How fast do you think it would go? The motor is a 400 watt motor.
I think my TidalForce is 750 watts with the capability to go 1500 if
they ever make the programming available.
(2) How hard would it be to put a bigger motor on the bike.
(3) Do you think you could hook the tidal force motor to it?

Thanks -

P.S. It is winter here in North Dakota so I was not going to check
this site until spring, but you guys are so knowledgeable and polite to
each other, that I enjoy reading your comments even though the bike is
put away till May.

[optibike]

We have looked at the schwinn, and these are the numbers that we
calculated from the given data on the website. Let me know if you
think we made an error or overlooked something.

Schwinn bike = 10 ah li-polymer
Schwinn advertised range = 60 miles
24v system
so, lets assume you could ride 20 mph average (not likely)
this would take 3 hours to go 60 miles
a 10 amp hour battery running for 3 hours means, 3.3 amps continuous
current.

At 24 volts, this is 75 watts of assistance. Assuming 100% efficiency.

If they figured out a way to go 20mph on 75 watts, we are going to
close our doors because we are obviously way behind the curve on that
one.

The Optibike 600 goes ~22mph using only electric through a geared
derauiller system. There is no possible way for the schwinn to go
anywhere near 20mph using 75 watts through a fixed speed hub system.

The motor MAY be rated for 400w or whatever, but that does not mean
that is the power you are getting.

The Schwinn is a great, CHEAP bike with little assist. I am happy they
are building them becase they are attracting people to the market and
some of those people enjoy high quality and performance. My only fear
is that they will burn many customers in the process who thing they are
getting something they are not.

Craig W.

BTW: Happy Holidays :)

[JoePod]

From the bike's specs page:
http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=889

Front Hub - Schwinn Protanium Mini Motor with alloy shell, 24v, 400 watts

Battery Schwinn Protanium lithium polymer 10 AH

Extras Integrated rear alloy Protanium Rack with integrated battery carrier and patented Plug-N-Drive system, front and
rear full wrap fenders, battery, charger, integrated into frame tank

This review basically says "more than 40 miles range IF you pedal hard"
Weight 40-45 lbs.
http://www.schwinnbike.com/news/press_detail.php?id=146

Best,
Joe

[JoePod]

This international model has a smaller 250 W motor

http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/intbikes_detail.php?id=896

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of optibike
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:43 PM
To: TidalForce Forum
Subject: [TF] Re: Schwinn Bike

[optibike]

hmmm. 24v @400w = 16.67 amps continuous. 10amps/16.67 = .59 hours of
riding
even at 250w thats only 10.6 amps for 1 hour of riding.

assuming the impossible----100% efficiency.

Like most E-bikes, these numbers are complete bologna, unless of course
the schwinn goes 40-60 mph.

For the record, the only real numbers I have seen posted with respect
to range and real power are by Josh Kearson at Run about Cycles and us
here at Optibike. Of course, I have not indexed all manufacturers.

[snit]

If you are storing the bike for 5 or 6 months, be sure to follow the
manual regarding battery care!

[GeorgeJ.Jones,Jr]

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/VRefuge/message/106

[Richard Papa]

Happy holiday's to you too dude! :)

Cheers,

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of optibike

[Richard Papa]

Can we have an Opti update please Craig? An Exclusive one for Christmas?

Cheers,

Rich

[JoePod]

Note to Devin on the Schwinn motor hub - looks like it's on an aluminum alloy front fork (with shock absorber).

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Papa
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 7:14 PM
To: Tidal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TF] Re: Schwinn Bike

[L-A-commuter]

The specs look similar to my Bionx (350 watt motor readily handles 750
watt surges) 10ah lithium battery, but the schwinn is far more
stealthy. i like the battery positioned under the rack.

[optibike]

An Optibike Update: as per request......

The bad news first: Doing business with all US companies makes it
nearly impossible to get your stuff on time. We are still waiting for
our final delivery of frames from our frame builder.

Now, for the good news: This has given us some time to fiddle with
some more of the other aspects of the Optibike that we have not had
time to including:

Different lubrication for the Motorized Bottom Brackett. This means
less resonance of sound in the frame and it makes the new Optibikes
really really quiet. It also means, though our initial tests on the
Dyno, the new Optibikes have 80% efficiency battery to wheel because of
less drag in the MBB gearing and very low loss due to heat because of
the way the motor is geared to run in its sweet spot all the time.
Now, this has to be tested some more because 80% is unheard of.

We have also been streamlining our whole scene here and testing some
different things for the New year. This is going to be a great year
for us and we are really looking forward to it. Finally. It seems like
with Schwinn launching a new line, and Mantra picking up the Tidal
force line some heavy hitters are starting to turn toward electric
bikes which means that they obviously see this as a growth area. We
translate that as: We all win. People will stop using so much gas,
start beiing healthier by getting out more, and people will start
seeing E-bikes as a main stream solution which translates into lower
prices and more options for everybody.

We intend on continuing to manufacture really high-end bikes to the
upper end customers in this growing market- we have some really cool
things in the pipeline and we are looking forward to further
establishing Optibike as the performance, style, and quality leader.

[Richard Papa]

Good stuff Craig and agree with your view on the new up-comers. Seems Opti
are going to have some lead time on TF as it's six months before they are
ready so you have a free market to push some sales. Plus the rumor is 08
for the US so you may have even longer? (hope this tip helps).

I will order an Opti but not yet. Maybe for next summer so I can test next
to the Matra TF. I think the Opti should do better and look forward to some
Papa reviews :)

Anyway, thanks for the update and best wishes from all at TF.

Take care,

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of optibike
Sent: 19 December 2006 17:06
To: TidalForce Forum
Subject: [TF] Re: Schwinn Bike

[joep]

Craig, (assuming it's you),
All great news! (Except for the delivery delays).
You know we like stealthy quiet, and high effeciency translates into lots of real benefits.
Wishing you all Happy holidays and a healthy and successful New Year!

Joe Snow

[jpros...@yahoo.com]

optibike wrote:
> We have looked at the schwinn, and these are the numbers that we
> calculated from the given data on the website. Let me know if you
> think we made an error or overlooked something.
>
> Schwinn bike = 10 ah li-polymer
> Schwinn advertised range = 60 miles
> 24v system
> so, lets assume you could ride 20 mph average (not likely)
> this would take 3 hours to go 60 miles
> a 10 amp hour battery running for 3 hours means, 3.3 amps continuous
> current.
>
> At 24 volts, this is 75 watts of assistance. Assuming 100% efficiency.
>

I ran some numbers through a bicycle power calculator. If you wanted a
3 hour range, you could draw 80 watts off the battery. Assuming 80%
efficiency, this is 64 watts of motive power. Without pedaling, this
would move you (on the flats, no wind) 13 mph, for a range of 39 miles.
That seems rather fantastic for a "stealth" assist.

If you pedaled with an effort that would give you 12 mph ( about 54
watts output), adding the assist takes you to 17 mph, with a range of
51 miles.

Pedaling with an effort of 14 mph (75 watts), with the assist you'd go
18.3 mph with a range of 55 miles.

Pretty nice, in my opinion.

However, to get a 60 mile range as advertised, to achieve 20 mph for
three hours the bicyclist would have to put out enough power to go
16.6. The assist would increase the speed by only 3.4 mph.

I think they actually achieve this range at much lower speeds. My guess
is they are targeting a 15 mph assisted speed. So 4 hours to go the 60
miles. This 15 mph speed requires 88 watts. A four hour output of the
battery supplies ( at 80% efficiency) 48 watts, leaving the bicyclist
to supply the other 40 watts. That would be pretty easy, the equivalent
to just over 10 mph unassisted.

[deerfencer1]

Craig,

Thanks for the update, and glad to hear you've been able to quiet the
ride quite a bit. Are you planning on doing the TDS again next spring?
Kind of doubt that I'll ride in it, but I'm thinking about going as a
spectator and perhaps dragging my daughters up there with me to expose
them to a real world science fair. Would love to meet with you if
you're coming, and test ride the new improved Opti!

Best,

Larry

P.S. I put some better aerobars on Uma and she's looking truly bizarre
these days, between the fast front end and the heavy rear (don't
laugh--it's how most of the women in my life are built <g>)

[cateyeco]

This is interesting. Lance Armstrong is the most powerful bike rider in
history and can put out 500 watts for 30 minutes. He was able to
average 28 mph in the Tour de France time trial with full aero 16 pound
bike and clothes and Lance has the highest power to weight ratio of any
cyclist. The calculations don't seem to agree with reality.

I used the calculator at http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
for mountain bike (200 lb rider with 40 lb bike) and 18 mph requires
235 watts. 28 MPH requires 744 watts.

But, Supermain Position (time trial/Lance) only requires 281 watts to
go 28 MPH according to same calculation!! But Lance puts out 500
watts??

I wonder if some of the TF owners could give feedback on how fast they
go with their 750 watt motors on flat ground.

Any ideas

[jpros...@yahoo.com]

I'm using Ken Roberts (cs.columbia.edu) bike_power.c calculator that
is suppose to be pretty accurate.

For a bicycle plus rider weighing 240 lbs, no wind, flat grade, upright
position ( hands on top of bars), 1.375 inch wide tires, I get the
required output power as 202 watts at 18 mph, and 642 watts at 28 mph.
Using the numbers for a racing bike and aero position, I get 134 watts
at 18 mph and 417 watts at 28 mph.

In a racing position, 750 watts of output power gets you a speed of 35
mph.

The numbers are mostly driving by the riding position. On the flats,
weight impacts only the rolling resistance, which is small relative air
resistance except at very low speeds.

But these aren't real-world numbers. If you start factors such as some
wind, maneuvering and braking, and hills, and the power requirements
shoot up.

On the other hand, since we are talking about racing, pacelining
reduces drag a lot.
In the middle of a paceline at 28 mph (no grade, no wind, etc.), the
required output power is only 268 watts. If the paceline could maintain
the speed, 750 watts in the middle of the paceline gets you 41 mph.
YeeHa!

[j...@cableone.net]

I don't disagree with any of the comments about the Schwinn bike.
However, I think they have done the best job of wiring and overall
making the bike look more like a regular bike than looking like an
electric bike. So, how hard do you think it would be to put a larger
battery, and/or a larger motor on the bike? Do you think we will ever
get to the point where a company like Schwinn would just sell the bike
with just the wiring system and not the battery or the motor and then
you add the components you prefer?

[deerfencer1]

<<Do you think we will ever
get to the point where a company like Schwinn would just sell the bike
with just the wiring system and not the battery or the motor and then
you add the components you prefer? >>

I doubt it, but agree with you on the slickness of Schwinn's
integration of the same in the bike--very impressive. I'm also excited
that the weight is down in the 40-45 lb range: this is major IMO, and I
think there's really no way to judge this bike until it's test-ridden,
especially given that low weight compared to other e-rides. The big
test IMO is how capable it is on hills with a Clydesdale (200+ lb)
rider aboard. My guess is that it will perform very well on flats and
rollers, but steep grades could well be a weakness. Is there any
mention of a speed limiter?

Larry