BionX PL350

[michael...@gmail.com]

Does anyone know the dealer's price on this? Also, how does it compare
to our Tidalforces? MF4

[L-A-commuter]

Michael, I have both BionX PL-350 & Tidalforce X. I've chosen the
BionX as my "daily rider" cuz it gives me the amount of assistance i
need/want combined with excellent distance range. But I would
recommend waiting until the 500 watt version comes out (with a 12ah
battery)

The BionX & Tidalforce are 2 completely different animals, and I
switch rides depending on the conditions. I'll quickly highlight the
differences/advantages between the two;

- T/F-X has a more solid stable "feel" when climbing hills. (the
wavecrest electronics provide higher torque when needed, more speed
when you call for it). I've literally snuck up on coyotes & bobcats
with my T/F.... that's how quiet they are. The T/F cons are:

1. Relatively short range with the stock hub battery

2. heavy overall... can't easily pedal with power off/depleted
battery.

- BionX has no noticeable drag when pedaling in "power off" mode.
The 4 levels of assist are truly revolutionary. Lightweight battery
attaches to bottle mounts,... which on Montague "M" frame is directly
below the rider for a good center of gravity.

Lower overall weight is my main consideration cuz i'm lifting it on &
off bus racks and metrolink trains. I have even folded it up into the
montague bike bag and carried it around during peak commuting hours
(the battery in my backpack). Tho the T/F M-750 folds up nice,... you
would be hard pressed to carry it on & off trains. Bionx has some
cons tho:

1. No hill climbing power! The stators are wound for speed, not
torque. bionx tackles small hills and uphill grades as tho you are
riding on flat ground, but will balk at 800 ft climbs that the T/F
will spit up and chew out.

2. EXPENSIVE batteries $1000 for a 9ah Li-ion is too much, but
you're stuck with their proprietary battery unlike the T/F which can
be modified to use any 36-44 volt power source that puts out 30 or 40
amps. fortunately the Bionx battery is still going strong after over
200 charges of hard use.

as far as buying the bionx, I will NOT recommend NYCEwheels due to
some issues i've had with them that I think were intentional (Paid for
PL-350 but was sent the NIMH version instead... it was a 2 month
nightmare getting NYCEwheels to simply send me what I paid for). Bad
customer service from them in my experience.

for mail order, I WILL recommend Electric Cyclery in Laguna Beach.

www.electriccyclery.com

If you live in southern California, Stop by and see Bob at H&S bikes
in Burbank CA. Bob will order AND professionally install Bionx kits
to any bike you have. Bob is an expert wheel builder as well.

www.hsbikes.com

ALSO Please consider the selections of our Doug at Texas Electric
Bikes. He has a selection of Hub motors & battery combinations that
are among the best. I heard the BMC hub motor can freewheel nicely.

http://www.texaselectricbikes.com

DAVE

[michael...@gmail.com]

Thanks for the insight Dave!
When will the BionX 500w become available to the American public?
Also, is LEVT my only option of battery replacement? I've heard a
rumor that the Matra Tidalforces will be equipped with Li-ion
batteries. Can anyone confirm this? Also, is it possible to fly with
the BionX/ TF bikes?
MF4

[L-A-commuter]

Re: battery replacement, Yes & no. LEVT is the only group that
successfully replaces/repairs T/F battery hubs, but our T/F engineers
have added the ability to use any battery on the market that can
handle the tidalforce hub motor. (info is in the "everything
tidalforce" page.

stock Tidalforce bikes are simply too heavy to check as luggage, but
where there's a will... If you modify your console to allow non-
wavecrest Li-poly batteries, you can just go with the hub motor rear &
normal bike tire in front. That will shave over 20 lbs.

If I were traveling somewhere for a long time, I would simply bring
the wheel hubs & T/F parts without a frame, and install them on a
cheap mountain bike frame at my destination. (you would have to buy a
torque bar clamp from LEVT $45).

The Bionx + montague frame is less than 45 lbs, so shouldn't be any
problem to check it as luggage. he battery replacement on Bionx is
more expenseive tho.

DAVE

[L-A-commuter]

as far as WHEN the 500 watt bionx will be available, my guess would be
summer 08. They are still testing the motor, and may actually pull
the plug on the 500 watt motor if there any problems.

More important tho is WHEN the 37 volt 12ah bionx battery will be
available....

with that battery, 100 mile trips in assistance levels 2&3 will be
easily attainable.


DAVE

[deerfencer1]

Dave,

Some great practical info here on the BionX system--thanks for
posting! These kinds of real world comparison are priceless when it
comes to deciding on a ride for one's specific needs.

Unless the new 500W BionX is more of a climber, I doubt I'd bite on
one, simply because I've gotten spoiled by the great e-assist my SX
provides on long hill climbs, as you mention. Sure, I can change
routes and ride the flatter river valleys in my area, but the hilly
rides I tend to favor have far less traffic, and some days I don't see
more than 2-3 cars on a 45-minute ride, which, together with smooth
blacktop and bucolic views, is my idea of heaven.

But I agree the Bionx would make a far more practical city commuter
bike for all the reasons you mention. Has anyone figured out who makes
their lion packs?
BTW, what's the max continuous amperage your Bionx motor draws? Watts?

Cheers,

Larry

[deerfencer1]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that yours is at least the second negative
experience reported here in regards to NYCE bikes. Our very own
Papasan had a disastrous time when he tried to buy his first TF bike
through them. Believe it or not, they shipped him a beat up used bike
after he ordered and paid for a new one--and as you can imagine, the
overseas shipping to the UK aint cheap!

LH

On Nov 30, 2:04 pm, L-A-commuter <davidrsyl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Joe]

Larry,
wow I thought I read most all of the posts from the start but I forgot or missed that one! My tf came from them and the owner had no problems (with nycewheels) i've visited there tiny shop in NYC a couple of times and they seemed OK in person. Sounds like they are different animals when it comes to mail order. No wonder my LBS in CT - Ken sold so many TFs in NYCE territory.
Best,
Joe (mobile)

[Joey]

Thanks for providing us the Bionx update Dave.

I have been contemplating the combination of a Bionx PL-350 kit with a
Swissbike LX, as seen on the electriccyclery website. However, when a
500 watt Bionx was mentioned on this site previously, I held off since
others had mentioned that the 250W and 350W versions are "allergic to
hills".

I have tried in vain to find more information on the new motor via net
searches. I did locate a model designated PL-500-HS on a Swiss
website, but when I inquired into this model at a US dealer, I was
told that it had the same permanent magnets as the lower-powered
version, was wired for speed rather than power, and was best suited
for small wheel sizes (e.g. 18"). Is the 500 watt motor that you
described designed for larger wheels? It is a long, steady, and mostly
gentle climb for me to get from work to home, and I don't need more
than 20mph top speed on level ground.

I would also consider the TidalForce if the front hub housed an
A123 or equivalent Li-Ion battery pack. It seems peculiar to live with
lesser batteries in the front hub and then augment them with a second
battery pack in back. I'd like to see a TidalForce setup with an in-
frame battery pack like BionX and no front hub battery. However, I
suspect that I would have to wait a very long time for Matra to import
any TidalForce product to the US.

--Joey

[Henry]

Hi there,
It seems I´m the only one around here who seems to own a Bionx PL500W
kit. I posted a few weeks ago some information in this group. I ´m
pasting below my last post responding to DAVE, L-A-commuter´s
questions who by the way, never answered back...:-)
Bionx 500w, as I said before, are available from Canada and very
easily shipped to U.S.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you all for your coments! Well I´ll try to reply to your
questions below on CAPITAL LETTERS:

Some questions:



> 1) Where did you buy the kit and what is the availability like? Cost?
> Weight of the entire package? Warranty?


I GOT IT FROM CANADA. MOST BIONX DEALERS OVER THERE CAN PROVIDE THE
500W MOTOR OR KIT UPGRADE UPON REQUEST. IT ONLY COSTS US$100 EXTRA
WHEN YOU BUY A PL 350 KIT ($1700) THE TOTAL WEIGHT IS ABOUT 7-8 KG.
THE WARRANTY IF I REMEMBER WELL IS 1 YEAR FOR THE BATT, 2 YEARS FOR
THE MOTOR. YOU CAN ALSO BUY THEM AS FAR AS I KNOW FROM FRANCE OR
SWITZERLAND.

> 2) How quiet or noisy is the motor? Have you ridden any other e-bikes
> to compare it to?


THIS IS MY FIRST E-BIKE BUT I´M SURE NOT THE LAST ONE...I JUST LOVE
THESE THINGS...;-)
I CANT COMPARE WITH OTHER E-BIKES BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU NOBODY AROUND
CAN TELL I´M RIDING AN EBIKE BECOUSE OF THE SOUND, ITS REALLY LOW.

> 3) Sounds like you have a good handle on the power numbers here. Do
> you have a DrainBrain or other voltmeter installed, or is this part of
> the Bionx package? I have to say I'm a bit surprised (and impressed)
> that the 500W motor will put out 1000W of power on the hills. Can it
> sustain this output for long climbs of several miles?



-FROM THE COMMAND CONSOLE YOU CAN SWITCH TO A "DIAGNOSTIC" MODE WHERE
YOU CAN MONITOR:
STRAIN GAGE SENSOR VALUE, CURRENT BATT VOLTAGE, ASSISTANCE OR
GENERATION COMMAND LEVEL SENT TO MOTOR (RANGE 0 TO 64)...AND THEN YOU
HAVE THE ORDINARY SPEEDOMETER, ODOMETER, BATT LEVEL, REMAINING TIME
AND DISTANCE MODE, CHRONO, ETC.
YOU CAN SUSTAIN AN AVARAGE SPEED OF 20-35 KM/H UP HILL DEPENDING ON
HOW STEEP IS THE HILL. I HAVE JUST TRIED SHORT CLIMBS OF LESS THAN
300
METERS SO FAR.

> 4) How long have you been riding the new system? Miles? Longest ride
> to date? I GOT IT 6 MONTHS AGO AND HAVE PUT ALREADY MORE THAN 500 KM. MY LONGEST RIDE WAS 40 KM PEDALLING AT LEVEL 2 OF ASSISTANCE AND STILL 25% OF BATT LEFT.
> Any glitches?



YES, UNFORTUNATELY I FOUND TWO. 1,5 SECONDS CUTS OFF EVERY LITTLE
WHILE WHEN DEMANDING 100% OF POWER UPHILLS OR BRAKING ON REGEN MODE
WITH AROUND 75%-80% OF INCOMING VOLTAGE. THIS SEEMS TO ME, IS AN
ANNOYING "SAFETY REACTION" OF THE INTERNAL CONTROLLER TO AVOID OVER
LOAD ON THE BATTERY DUE TO EXCESIVE POWER DEMAND FROM THE MOTOR...¿?
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
ANOTHER THING I CONSIDER A GLITCH IS THE LACK OF TORQUE WHEN STARTING
FROM A STOPPED POSITION UPHILL



5) Finally, can the Bionx system be adapted to use an auxilliary
pack


> for extended range? I DONT THINK SO. DUE TO THE PROPRIETARY ELECTRONICS AND SPECIFIC DESIGN OF THE BIONX I DOUBT YOU COULD EASILY ADD AN EXTERNAL PARALLEL BATTERY, THOUGH IT WOULD BE GREAT IF WE COULD...!!!


I GUESS THAT´S ALL FOR NOW...THANKS FOR YOU COMMETS! THEY ARE MOST
WELCOMED.

HENRY

[Joey]

Hi Henry,

I did see your earlier post. Forgive me for asking, but is your kit
the PL-500W-HS (where HS means high-speed and is designed specifically
for speed rather than power), or is this a new 500W motor that differs
from that of the 500W-HS that has been available in Canada and some
parts of Europe for some time now. US dealers have told me they can
get the 500W-HS but that I wouldn't want it. I am hoping for more hill
climbing power. I was told by a US dealer that putting a PL-500W-HS on
a bike with a larger wheel would produce lots of speed but would be
very poor at hill climbing. The impression I get from other posts is
that a newer 500W motor tuned for more torque is coming and that it
therefore differs from the existing PL-500W-HS.

--Joey

On Dec 1, 9:48 am, Henry <ep...@yahoo.es> wrote:
> Hi there,
> It seems I´m the only one around here who seems to own a Bionx PL500W
> kit. I posted a few weeks ago some information in this group. I ´m
> pasting below my last post responding to DAVE, L-A-commuter´s
> questions who by the way, never answered back...:-)
> Bionx 500w, as I said before, are available from Canada and very
> easily shipped to U.S.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > DAVE- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Henry]

Hi Joey,
What I was told when I bought it about 7 months ago, it was that the
motor I got was the "Hi torque hi speed" upgrade to the PL350 kit,
(which was in fact what I bought), but with the 500W motor. That´s all
I can tell you... I havent tested another one yet as to tell the
difference. What I can tell you is that is very fast on a 26" wheel.
It can be more than 52 km/ h. As regard the torque I think it should
be much better, that´s for sure, but it still makes a huge difference
if you compare it with climbing without assistance...;-) It doubles
the speed of any ordinary fit cyclist on a very steep uphill.
18 to 35 km/h. is the average speed I can get uphill depending on the
level of the hill.
I would sumarize it by saying that if you are more interested about
torque I wouldnt go for the BIonx. If you want both torque and speed,
on a let´s say 35/65 ratio, you would enjoy this motor pretty much. In
any case I would love to test that new 500w hi torque version you say
is coming soon...

Henry

On 1 dic, 19:41, Joey <rfog...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Henry,
>
> I did see your earlier post. Forgive me for asking, but is your kit
> the PL-500W-HS (where HS means high-speed and is designed specifically
> for speed rather than power), or is this a new 500W motor that differs
> from that of the 500W-HS that has been available in Canada and some
> parts of Europe for some time now. US dealers have told me they can
> get the 500W-HS but that I wouldn't want it. I am hoping for more hill
> climbing power. I was told by a US dealer that putting a PL-500W-HS on
> a bike with a larger wheel would produce lots of speed but would be
> very poor at hill climbing. The impression I get from other posts is
> that a newer 500W motor tuned for more torque is coming and that it
> therefore differs from the existing PL-500W-HS.
>
> --Joey
>
> On Dec 1, 9:48 am, Henry <ep...@yahoo.es> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi there,
> > It seems I´m the only one around here who seems to own a Bionx PL500W
> > kit. I posted a few weeks ago some information in this group. I ´m
> > pasting below my last post responding to DAVE, L-A-commuter´s
> > questions who by the way, never answered back...:-)
> > Bionx 500w, as I said before, are available from Canada and very
> > easily shipped to U.S.

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > - Show quoted text -- Ocultar texto de la cita -
>
> - Mostrar texto de la cita -

[Joey]

Hi Henry,

I suspect your kit is a PL-500-HS. I was told that model was
designed for an 18" wheel. To first order, the velocity should scale
inversely with wheel diameter. If you're getting 52km/h (32mph) with a
26" in wheel, you'd get about 36 km/h (22mph) on an 18" wheel which is
a more typical velocity of a pedal-assisted bicycle off the showroom
floor. What outfit did you buy it from in Canada? Did they mount the
motor on a 26" wheel for you?

-- Joey

> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > - Mostrar texto de la cita -- Hide quoted text -

[Joey]

I think I found some discussion on the new high-torque BionX motor in
a Google search. The high-torque motor has HT in the name, e.g. HT500
or something like PL-500-HT for the kit. Apparently, the new motor has
been going through approvals for motor vehicle classification in
Europe. There was some mention of availability in April or May. I
suspect that a HT500 on a 26" wheel with the higher-capacity Li-Ion
(12AH?) that was mentioned recently in this forum would be an awesome
setup. Somebody please tell me where I can buy one real soon.

--Joey

[L-A-commuter]

Thanks Henry & Joey. It seems as tho bionx may become a viable
alternative to crystalyte hubs, with different stator windings for
different applications. Bionx MUST include a torque-bar with these
higher power motors.

I haven't saved any db data from previous runs on my bionx 350, but I
have the numbers for today:

41.1 volts off the charger.... 38.1 ending voltage. (about 12 miles)
used 3.088ah total. the li-ion battery puts out 12 amps average, 26
amps max draw according to todays run.

I just put a new front wheel on and forgot to put on the magnet so I
have to estimate distance. I used full throttle, highest assistance
setting and minimal pedaling up to 22mph max (avg 18mph).

I typically can go 22 or 23 miles using 7ah before the battery goes
below 32-33 volts... my cutoff. I'm 240 lbs, so my numbers are
probably lower than average.

When I use only level 2 or 3 assistance (and good pedaling) I can go
upwards of 40 miles or so.

- Level 1 = minimal assistance... hardly noticeable, but does help
some,... 60 miles or so.

- level 2 = Good assistance... the weight of the bike is gone and
uphill grades are flattened.

- Level 3 = Excellent assistance... Minimal pedaling gets you up to
18 mph... 25-30 miles or so

- Level 4 = Most Excellent assistance... barely pedaling gets you
22mph (with the speed restriction removed) the only weak point is the
44 tooth chainwheel on the M-frame. a 48 or 52 tooth sprocket will
probably give you 25 mph, but will cost range i imagine.

DAVE

[L-A-commuter]

Max watts was 725,... averaged 370.

[michael...@gmail.com]

Great info. guys! I wonder if there is a sharp price increase for the
BionX kits in Europe. My guess is yes. Does anyone know what a Pl350
sells for in Europe? Also, is Matra offering the Pl350 on their
bikes?
mf4

[michael...@gmail.com]

Okay, I found the following prices online for the Pl-500HS. Basically,
it will cost about 2500 dollars. ouch!


Les vélos les plus vus des 7 derniers jours
Bionx - PL-500HS
+ garantie de 2 ans CHF 2790.-

Bionx - PL-250HT
+ garantie de 2 ans CHF 2790.-

Raleigh - Leicester E
+ garantie de 1 ans CHF 3290.-

Bionx - P-250
+ garantie de 2 ans CHF 1790.-

Bionx - PL-250
+ garantie de 2 ans CHF 2290.-





2,790.00 CHF = 1,745.55 EUR
Switzerland Francs Euro
1 CHF = 0.625646 EUR 1 EUR = 1.59835 CHF



1,745.55 euros = 2,552 USD

[deerfencer1]

Dave,

Thanks for those power and range numbers. Pretty impressive range, and
the power numbers are about half of what a 750W TF will draw on
average in turbo mode--and about 20 amps less than an X bike at full
throttle. That's a huge difference, and shows how completely different
the two systems are from each other design-wise.
Our TFXs are starting to look like the 800-lb gorilla compared to most
assist drives other than the heavy Clyte motors.

Larry

[Henry]

Hi folks,
It is great to read from other Bionx users experiences. I just wanted
to point out a couple of things: I am sure Bionx in general, the 250,
350 and even my 500w version, were designed primarely for city
commuting where speed can be more important than torque, while TF and
the TFX version in particular were concived for an offroad use where
torque is crucial. With regard to Joey´s comment, it may be true that
the 500W upgrade I got was designed for a 18" wheel rather than a 26"
which was the one I ordered, but if I happened to use it on a 18"
wheel, I wouldnt be satisfied at all by its top speed even if the
torque was much higher, as I want the top speed to be around 45-50km/h
when I need it to be "integrated" in the traffic.
Second, You can not compare a TF with a Bionx for many reason, the
first one is the price. In theory TF should double the performance of
a Bionx as fas as it doubles its price. As I said before they have
different conceptions of design. In any case I would have gone for a
TF if I had kits available when I looked for them. Instead I got this
new Bionx 500 kit without speed limit which is giving me very good
vibrations...:-)

Ok, I have now two question for Dave, what did you use for getting
those figures out of your Bionx? it was really cool!
2nd, you said your li-ion battery puts out 12 amps average...would
that mean is a 12ah battery????

Thanks!
Henry

> > Max watts was 725,... averaged 370.- Ocultar texto de la cita -

[L-A-commuter]

Hi Henry,... The "Cycle Analyst" is the new name for "DrainBrain",
basically a wattmeter combined with a cycle computer developed by
Justin at:
http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

The stock Cycle Analyst has the same trailer connectors as the
bionx... very good for measuring youre exact voltage & expended amps.
The Cycle Analyst is almost a must for my bionx because the factory
dashboard only shows a vague "battery bar" that, whether by accident
or design, shows "empty" at 38 volts left (4ah expended). This may
have been done on purpose to prevent deep discharge of the battery.

Bionx "9ah" battery really only gives me 7ah usable power even since
day 1. I could probably discharge the battery to 9ah, but the voltage
would be dangerously low @ 28-30 volts, deep discharging any battery
is not advised.

ampere is the measurement of constant current (where ah is the amount
of current expended):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere

The the bionx 12ah li-ion battery hasn't been released yet as far as i
know.

DAVE

[Henry]

Hi Dave, sorry for the delay but I´ve been abroad for a few days.
Thanks for your post. I have a question for you, where or how did you
plugged the Cycle analyst into the Bionx system? did you completely
removed the bionx console?
I guess you are aware of this but just in case I would like to tell
you that for avoiding unacuarate reading of the battery bar you have
to reset the battery from time to time. I do it just by pressing the
mode button for 20 seconds everytime that after full charge it doesnt
show all of the battery bars. After doing that if goes ok for a few
months...

Cheers,

Henry


On 4 dic, 16:04, L-A-commuter <davidrsyl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> HiHenry,... The "Cycle Analyst" is the new name for "DrainBrain",

[L-A-commuter]

Hi Henry:

The cycle-analyst has "pass-thru" trailer connectors placed at the
motor connection. The battery then plugs into the cycle-analyst as if
it were the motor.

Make sure to read the directions carefully as the bionx & crystalyte
connections appear identical... except the voltage polarity is
reversed.

Also, if you're ordering directly from Justin, don't forget to specify
your preference for "Mph" or "Kmh". mine displays in kilometers cuz i
forgot to specify, but I like the kilo option now. Justin has offered
to reprogram the unit for free, but i'm used to going metric now.

Thanx for the tip on resetting the battery indicator.

DAVE