E+ selling DIY kit & other news
G Anderson
haven't seen this posted yet so sorry if i missed it & i'm |
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deerfencer
posting--we'll have to follow up on this kit, especially if offered at
1000W.
LH
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Jérôme Daoust
> haven't seen this posted yet ...
Related discussion on Endless-Sphere:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9271
Tor Atle Lunde
integrated in the wheels, so why be forced to buy a frame and
components of THEIR choice? Very good.
Tor Atle
bMF
Electric Motion Systems no longer works for his own company?
why EMS (supposedly a competitor) was given a grand tour of the Matra
factory & have teamed up to collaborate on supplying fresh M750's?
why a new website with a name change when the old one wasn't even that
old?
the only thing that would make the owner of a company give up his baby
is if he got bought out.
welcome to the new official factory Tidalforce Forum:
http://www.epluselectricbike.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=4&SID=d14864bab29acf28d7ed54b9e124cc86
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Richard Papa
It was not just Rakesh's business. There are a lot of people involved at the
top. It was more that Rakesh was our point of contact with EMS. He really
helped a lot of TF owners with info and other practical help which is why we
liked him so much.
I think the best thing Rakesh did for us was that wish list he did for TF
owners. And then EMS came out with them all! I remember asking for an
immobilizer and we got it! It's that kind of feedback/implementation that
gave me a lot of respect for the guy.
As to why he left? I feel it's none of our business. Real shame though as I
like the guy a lot and he done a lot for us all with out TFs.
Hope he does well on whatever it is he is doing.
Take care,
Rich
bMF
not asking why he left, simply the fact that he is gone is another
piece of supporting evidence that there's more at play here with the
recent changes at E+ (nee EMS) than a mere face lift.
the question is how can another corporate entity make use of someone
else's copyrighted name for commercial purposes unless they've been
granted the right to do so by the copyright owner?
that question on it's own gives rise to a number of implications
regardless of the exact answer.
at a min there is an alliance, but more likely a buy-in if not a buy-
out by Matra.
after all why would the new TFF fall under E+ administration?
could just as easily by done from France, i've heard the web is world
wide.
and besides, shouldn't it be called the Matra forun??
it appears at this point that E+ has been given responsibility by
Matra of operating their mid-level 750-1000W ebike divison.
call it the twin-hub division for want of a better name.
it'll be interesting to see if a Bion-x forum will pop up alongside
the other two forums.
who knows, maybe even an MS-1 forum.
the game is a foot, dear Watson.
Richard Papa
I did not skirt anything my friend. I just did not catch what you meant.
EMS have worked with Matra since day one of Matra taking Tidalforce. Plus I
knew about the TF bikes at Matra. I tried to get them too. A long time
ago. So it makes sense EMS are taking the old stock and using it to make
some wonderfully exclusive E+M-750s ;9) I was told a year ago that TF would
be back in the US soon. And I asked the head of Matra (Jack) to PLEASE get
TF back to you guys ASAP. Shame it's taken so long but great it's finally
happened.
But as I said to Matra during our meeting in Paris. TF is over engineered
for the European market and the legal issues regarding e-bikes in general.
And it seems Matra concluded that TF are high risk and could be a conflict
of interest for the group (Matra are part of an even bigger group). I'll try
soon to speak to Robert and see if anything new is happening.
Matra never released the 750w or the 1000w to Europe. Just the same 500w
you have. As do most of the European MFGs make a max output of 500w but a
speed restriction of 16mph even though the LAW states 250w max. Very shabby
indeed. We should have at least 750w LAWs! Something the MFGs could get
changed if they stick together. I did try remember?
But EMS work with Matra and that's no secret. And EMS told us Matra are
selling the old M-750 stock to them (EMS). But the M frames will be
equipped with the latest E+ kit. I think they will be just wonderful.
Maybe they will be sold as Tidalforce bikes? Wouldn't that be something!
Good luck to EMS!
bMF
simply.
it's regarding the new Tidalforce forum.
are we going to move yet again?
should we be posting there?
if not, then what will be the nature of the relationship between the
two forums?
it's a very small pie to divide up & only getting smaller thru
attrition.
unless (and this is where the rest of my speculation comes in to
confuse things) this signals the return of Tidalforce to the market.
either way my question remains the same, what happens to this google
forum now, is the writing on the wall?
same question could legitimately be asked of the old E+ google forum
except there isn't a large body of history & useful info there so no
problem starting fresh, to be blunt about it.
Richard Papa
finish writing an excel sheet.
We are not going anywhere. Forums can come, stay or go. This place will
remain even I have to post to myself ;9)
Don't worry. We are a pretty strong and loyal group. The more the merrier
you could say. And as EMS can use the TF brand name, they have more right
than us. Also, many of the EMS engineers designed our bikes. I suspect they
must be thrilled to play around with the brand again. I would use the name
to it's full if I was in their shoes. And every mfg needs a good point of
interactive contact. A forum is a good idea.
I wonder if EMS would consider using the brand name from now on for all
their bikes? That would be a very shrewd move. The name "TIDALFORCE" is
possibly the best name I have ever heard. Wonderful for marketing. Pretty
clever IMO. Worth exploiting.
Jérôme Daoust
speculations of EMS' future.
Not to spoil the fun, but I would also like EMS to chime in, so I
emailed them asking them to join the discussion.
bMF
"And as EMS can use the TF brand name, they have more right than us."
this is what is confusing me & causing my concern.
"Secondly, there is no relationship between TidalForce technology and E
+ technology. They are 2 different animals promoted by 2 different
companies. Let us not confuse the two.
Best Regards,
Rakesh
www.electricmotionsystems.com"
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/message/74912
the bouillabaisse thickens!
OptOut
name. I think he meant Matra. But maybe he knows something we don't.
Rich?
Bmf, where's the new TF group/forum?
Best,
Joe (mobile)
Richard Papa
I'm feeling dumb today again, I don't understand your point (so sorry).
EMS are not selling the TF propulsion system. Just 250 special addition M
frames with their system (E+). If you are trying to work out if EMS have
brought out the TF brand name? I have no idea. It would be fantastic if
they did but I doubt it. Why spend all the money on a name in these
troubling times. Unless a deal was done to give TF to EMS? Again, I have no
idea? It would not surprise me if Matra end up selling TF anyway. It was
just a show piece for them and their market is deliberately small.
It simply seems to me like EMS have been given the old M stock from Matra
(as they stated). And EMS has used the TF name on a forum to hopefully
promote these special addition bikes. And I am sure EMS hope to get some
well deserved attention by using the wonderful name "Tidalforce". I hope
they do.
So I really don't know what you mean my friend. The TF is a seven phase
motor and the E+ is a three. So the point is?
Cheers but me dumb,
Richard Papa
becoming available). Another company hold the rights to sell the M frames.
So this may explain a few things,
deerfencer
I stopped by my local EMS dealer finally for a test ride of the 1000W
bike and will post a brief review of that separately. Ken, the dealer
in Greenwich CT at River Cycles (formerly Cycle Dynamics)
was I believe the very first TF dealer in the US, and one of the first
to pick up the new E+ line. He's visited both Wavecrest and now EMS,
and attended a dealer training session at the new EMS facilities
several months ago--which he reports are in the same office park as
the old WC, virtually right next door in fact.
Here's a summary of what Ken told me just a few hours ago. Take it as
informed hearsay and nothing more:
1) EMS employs the same team of engineers that was behind the TF
bikes.
2) EMS knew how to easily bypass the WC patents since they obviously
had intimate knowledge of the engineering behind the WC motor.
3) Rakesh repeatedly told Ken the E+ motors were a "whole new
architecture" from the TF motors and this indeed appears to be true.
4) EMS has indeed been working with Matra from very early on in
training the French engineers on developing these motors and helping
them with improvements on the same. It's very unclear to me which
version of which motor Matra is using, and Ken's comments on this
matter seemed too conjectural to report here.
Does anybody know? Rich? Given that Matra paid a significant sum
for the WC patents, it strikes me as curious that they'd abandon the
original design, though Ken hinted that one of WC's follies was
placing too much faith and investment in the value of the patents
themselves.
5) There appears to be significant venture capital behind EMS though
the source itself remains a mystery to me. Ken estimated EMS employs
about twenty engineers, so I have to think the payroll alone is
probably pushing $2 million/year.
6) EMS is a bunch of brilliant engineers but they are not from a bike
enthusiast background--something I think we already knew. The company
therefore values greatly the kind of rider input these boards provide.
See my review for my impressions of the 1000W E+ itself.
LH
m4
I'm curious to know what you thought of the E+. Initally, I found that
handlebars to be too close and unconfortable, but with an upgrade to
RaceFace bars, WTB seat and Thudbuster seat suspension, it rides like
a dream.
As for the display, I didn't care too much for it at first, but within
a few months I really began to develop an appreciation for it's
capabilities. The option of different power modes allows me to
effeciently extend the duration of my charge, sometimes getting as
much as 30-40 miles on a single charge. While the regen modes/exercise
modes are incredibly usefull while biking down steep, on and off road
terrain, charging the battery the whole time. All the controll buttons
are conviently located within the left thumb's reach. The backlight
allows you to navigate through the display while riding at night.
I find that the security feature (locking of the motor) gives me a
relaxed since of security when I have to run quick errands in town.
Assuming that no one knows how to unlock the security feature, I can
buzz in and out of stores knowing that noone is going to peddal away
with the bike.
M4
bMF
for me the hardware was never in confusion.
but it's okay rich, i believe i got it strate now.
Tim Folk explained there are 3 separate & distinct ebikes that just
happen to carry the Tidalforce tag.
the original TF-wcl, the official TF-ms, & the latest TF+.
as i've said previously it's basically the new TF forum what's
throwing me for a loop.
especially when trying to reconcile it with the previous comments made
by Rakesh, but i'm much better now.
i still hold out a small sneaking suspicion that we may find out at a
later date of some sort of deal of the kind u mentioned.
as larry pointed out EMS must have a large capitalization from
somewhere & i thot it might be MS.
btw that was some *very* interesting here-say larry, especially about
EMS training Matra it's like the tail wagging the dog, definitely food
for thought.
however Tim was quite definitive that EMS is still it's own entity &
have no reason to believe otherwise (for now). ;^)
joe, for the new TF forum link, see my previous post, #5 in this
thread.
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deerfencer
I'm posting this over at my (aborted) test ride review folder and
would request you follow up with some detailed ride reports as an
antidote to my grumpy ramblings. More details please!
Thanks,
LH
Jérôme Daoust
http://www.epluselectricbike.com/E+_Electric_Bike_Kit.asp
I did not find if it will support the New battery options in 2009:
http://www.epluselectricbike.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7