Metaphors of Scripture - Light
Ray
on the word 'light' in scripture. I don't have the paper with me at
the moment but as I listened to him speak I realized that the word
'light' (as used in scripture) also has a descriptive meaning
different than what he presented.
'Light' is scripturally presented to us as a metaphor for
'understanding' and its use is woven throughout scripture.
Light is something which allows those with eyes to see.
'Darkness' is also a picture of a place of no understanding. It is a
place of the unknown where one stumbles, and falls, and dies. There is
death in darkness and life in light. Understanding pierces the
darkness and helps us to see and when we see, we live.
Yahshua said in Matthew 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city
on a hill cannot be hidden."
Read these verses and compare. See if you are able to recognize what I
am writing of!
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=light&version1=31&searchtype=all&interface=print
Glory to Yahweh in the Highest!
Shalom,
Ray
(Link to "Directions and Metaphors of Scripture" - Narrow Gate post):
http://groups.google.com/group/TheNarrowGate/browse_thread/thread/b6de611a8bea8fe2#
Ray
(This is my letter to the friend who spoke of light last Sunday, Dec
16. I have added footnotes for the verses I quoted.)
I enjoyed listening to you speak of the scriptural word 'light' last
Sunday. While I was listening, I also recognized another meaning of
the word 'light'. I was excited and immediately dove into scripture
after I got home from church.
I see that the word 'light' (in scripture) is also used as a
description for 'understanding'. The first reference to light I
thought of was Genesis 1 and how Yahweh created light (understanding)
and called it 'day' (a time, or an event, or a place in life). After
the crucifixion and resurrection, Yahshua was with seven disciples and
he brought them out of the darkness into the light (a new day, a new
life) in John 21.
Of course not every use of the word 'light' means 'understanding' as
light also means not heavy, refers to ignition, or describes radiant
energy provided for us to physically see with, yet many scriptural
verses use the word 'light' to reference understanding.
In Matthew 5:14 Yahshua said (to the crowds) "You are the light of the
world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden." Yet it also recorded in
John 8:12 that Yahshua said to the people "I am the light of the
world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have
the light of life."
Yahshua said to the people "You are the light of the world" and he
also said "I am the light of the world." Obviously they did not
radiate physically visible energy that pierced the darkness (as we
perceive dark). The light Yahshua spoke of would have referenced their
living example of the life given to them by Yahweh, showing the world
the glory of the Father, and it would have centered around their
spiritual lives which all rested on their foundation of understanding
of who they were and who Yahweh is.
The words of Yahshua state that Yahweh's spiritual children are the
'light' of the world.
'Light' then is used in places as a metaphor (or a picture) for
understanding. 'Darkness' then is also a picture of a place of no
falls, and dies. There is death in darkness and life in light.
and helps us to see and when we see, we live. Understanding bathes a
person with knowledge and awareness and it's the path of understanding
that leads us to life!
Look to the Psalms, to Genesis and Revelation. Cover to cover,
scripture is filled with Yahweh's light - the glory and safety of His
understanding.
Yahshua answered: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
comes to the Father except through me." [1] Yahshua said "I am the
bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who
believes in me will never be thirsty." [2] Yahshua said "Enter through
the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads
to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and
narrow the road that leads to life; and only a few find it.{3] And
Yahshua also said "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be
saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture."[4]
Yahshua is the light of Yahweh -His understanding - that dispels the
spiritual darkness and gloom of the unknown in the world just as all
of Yahweh's spiritual children radiate His understanding to the world.
The lights of His children grow in intensity as we mature in His
understanding.
We shine as stars in the heavens.
Yahweh created man in His image, the image of light, and mans light
radiated outward to all of Yahwehs creations until man chose to sin.
Yahwehs light in man went out at that time yet when Yahweh learned of
this, he didn't reject us. Instead, He provided a way that his light
could shine through us again. He gave us the gift of his Son Yahshua
and then he gave us the gift of His Spirit to help us understand. Both
of them come to us when we chose to enter into His kingdom through the
narrow gate - our salvation and brother, Yahshua.
I recognize that scripture was written for us to see in pictures
instead of strictly by interpretation. I see pictures in scripture
when I read (or hear) it and it's more of an experience and a
relationship than it is a puzzle. It is both an incredibly wonderful
and often very lonely experience.
Thanks for talking about 'light' last Sunday.
Ray
1. John 14:6
2. John 6:35
3. Matthew 7:13- 14
4. John 10:9
caryb
kenrank
Ray, I have enjoyed your posts, but there is an aspect of Genesis 1
that gets overlooked. Thought I would throw it into the mix.
In Genesis, we see on the first day that YHWH created the light. On
the 4th day he created the Sun to light the day, the moon and stars to
light the night. So the physical light, that which allows creation to
"physically" see, happens on the 4th day, thus the light on day one
has a different significance. I don't dispute that the light on day
one was wisdom and understanding in a sense...but remember, YHWH is
eternal and has always had wisdom and understanding, so why would he
need to create it? For us(?), we weren't here yet.
I have a different take. I have come to believe that "maybe" the light
created on day one....one of the first things He did, was make a way
for us, back to Him....even before we had strayed away from Him. What
I mean is YHWH knew from the beginning what He will know in the end.
And, He'll know in the end what He knew in the beginning. With this in
mind, YHWH had to know before He created us that we would fall away
from Him, and need a life jacket to grab onto to get back.
How did I come to this? First, there is an obvious spiritual
significance to the creation of light on day one for the reasons
above. Second, the gospels are full of times when Yahushua is called
or referred as the light, even the true light. Consider this passage:
"There was a man sent from Elohim, whose name was John. The same
(John) came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, (capitol L in
KJV, don't know if translated properly), that all men through him
might believe. He (John) was not that Light, but was sent to bear
witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lights every man
who cometh into the world." (John 1:6-9)
John didn't come to bear witness to understanding, though again,
Yahushua IS/WAS the understanding and wisdom and power of YHWH on
Earth, when he walked the Earth. John came to bear witness to the man
and his actions that would save man. Consider what else John says
here, "Behold, the Lamb of Elohim, that takes away the sins of the
world." John knew exactly who Yahushua was, and he declared and he
bore witness to him. He also spoke and said he was "the voice of one
crying in the wilderness, prepare the way of YHWH, makes his path
straight."
His path, THE path, which He leads or sets and we follow...we follow
that path in order to be reunited for all time with our Father. That
pathmaker is the Light, and that mission was set in place on the very
first day... for YHWH never had intended to spend eternity without his
children.
That Light, well, I have pondered on that Light for years now. Like I
said, YHWH would have known ahead of time that we would fall from
Him...seeing His love for us throughout scripture, looking at how the
WHOLE book leads us to Messiah and back to Him...well, it just seems
YHWH-like to have set the pathway home to Him up on that very first
day.
Peace.
Ken
Ray
a group of his disciples and some Pharisees on a Sabbath. The records
of Matthew, Mark and Luke tell us that there was an abundance of ripe
corn in the fields on that day and that the disciples gathered and ate
some.
Consider this description of where they were. Some translations say it
was corn. I think they all refer to grain. In any case the plants
would have been high, perhaps high enough that Yahshua would have been
out of sight for some of those who followed him.
Yet they could hear his voice and they all knew where he was.
The Pharisees took offense at Yahshua and his disciples because they
considered the task of husking kernels to be work and they were taught
that work on the Sabbath was unlawful. They didn't reject Yahshua but
they pointed out what they were taught.
Yahshua offered them food beyond the grain.
Yahshua is the gate, the light of the world. He is the way and the
truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him. He
calls for us to emulate him and live our lives as he lived. He came to
help us understand and live.
When I read these records I see that Yahshua was showing these people
how he is the way to the Father. So many times we are strictly taught
to blindly hold the hand of those leading us so we won't get lost in
the unknown. No one seems to understand much about the path we're
being led on other than there's someone ahead of us showing us the
way. I have a mental picture of lines of people walking through fields
like this, hands held and eyes on the ground following the person
before them. Even today when the occasional person looks up they're
told to keep their eyes on the person in front so they don't get lost.
Yahweh wants for us to understand the way and see the path home. He
want us to look up and around so that we can recognize and receive the
abundance of our Fathers provisions for us, and be healthy and live.
There is only one way, and that is through him.
These records show me how Yahshua is the way. Even in a field of
plants so high that we cannot see through we can still hear his voice.
We can hear him teach and we can learn and understand what is right
and most important, we know where he is.
It is good to question Yahweh and point out the things that we were
taught was true because it's only when we do these things that we can
understand what the truth actually is. The records don't say if the
Pharisees that day learned or not but I want to think that they did.
You see, I think they were drawn to be with him and they learned.
Yahshua took these people into a place and showed them to recognize
and receive the rich abundance of our Father Yahweh's provisions. He
fed them both physically and spiritually and helped them understand
and see.
We're not so different, you and I. When you and the others write on
this board and I read our posts and replies I imagine I'm in a field
of ripe corn with my brothers on a Sabbath listening for the voice of
the Teacher. I know his voice and I'm asking questions too. And it's
because I'm talking with him that I know where he is.
I can tell that you and some others here are talking with him too.
Oh, I like what you've shared. Look closely at Genesis 1 and you'll
see there wasn't any 'night' on any of the 'days' of the creation.
Shalom,
Ray
>
> - Show quoted text -
Fancier Quinn
understand war you don't understand history. If you don't understand
history, you might as well live with your head in a sack." an unknown
Jewish sage
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalms 122:6
Moderator
You may strongly disagree with someone but what you have raised in
your post are nothing short of charges of blasphemy against YHVH.
These are indeed serious charges and, if true, your charge deserves
more than a two sentence "hit."
I don't believe anyone on this forum intends to say that YHVH is a
"liar and a devil" or that He is blind, stupid or confused. If you see
this, then help us understand, including those to whom you would raise
your blasphemy charge. Please explain with more detail to expand and
substiantiate your ccomments and your charge.
~ Moderator
Fancier Quinn
Greetings Quinn,
You may strongly disagree with someone but what you have raised in
your post are nothing short of charges of blasphemy against YHVH.
These are indeed serious charges and, if true, your charge deserves
more than a two sentence "hit."
I don't believe anyone on this forum intends to say that YHVH is a
"liar and a devil" or that He is blind, stupid or confused. If you see
this, then help us understand, including those to whom you would raise
your blasphemy charge. Please explain with more detail to expand and
substiantiate your ccomments and your charge.
~ Moderator
On Dec 21, 9:38am, "Fancier Quinn" < fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then you maintain that the Holy ONE of Yisrael is a Liar and a devil (as a
> result of HIS lies), as well as being blind, stupid and not knowing/confused
> as to who is HIS firstborn! As HE said in Shemot / Exodus 4:22 And thou
> shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the L-RD, Israel is my son, even my
> firstborn
>
--
"If you don't understand weapons, you don't understand fighting. If
you don't understand fighting you don't understand war. If you don't
Ray
I have remained quiet about you at the request of Moderator when I
first joined this board but I will speak now. I will also reference
this post anytime in the future when you come at me with your hateful
and deceiving words.
This attack of yours is normal of you Quinn and something I expect.
You pick and choose what scriptural verses you need to support you and
reject the rest. It seems to me that you're a dark teacher brought up
and steadfast in the ways and understanding of man.
I maintain you have no idea of what Israel is.
Adam was Yahweh's firstborn son yet this obvious point in the records
of Genesis seems to elude you. This was echoed in Yahshua's linage in
Luke 3:38 which states "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son
of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of Yahweh."
The subject of this thread obviously bothers you because you cannot
understand it and the reason you cannot understand it is stated in
this thread. Isaiah 29 (as I understand it) describes you to me as you
are right now.
I understand that Yahshua is Yahweh's firstborn SPIRITUAL Son. For you
to reject my understanding (which I am scripturally sharing in the
very best way I can) and for you to hatefully object to me sharing
what I am learning with my family paints a grave picture of what you
are.
I love my Father Yahweh and I am comforted by knowing that I am his
son. I have many siblings and you, unfortunately, do not seem to be
one of them. Yahshua is my perfect brother and my salvation and I
experience the family love my Father Yahweh surrounds me with every
breath that I take. His Spirit is my teacher and it is His Spirit that
gives me understanding.
Why don't you start your own thread instead of disrupting mine. This
thread is about the light of Yahweh - something you cannot understand.
Ray
On Dec 21, 12:03 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> jesus or whatever your call him is not the firstborn son of YHVH, for YHVH
> Himself says Yisrael is HIS firstborn. Shemot 4:22 And you shall say to
> Pharaoh, 'So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel." '. To say jesus is
> the firstborn of YHVH is to call YHVH a liar and as a result of HIS lie - a
> devil. If this is not calling YHVH a liar and a devil, then HE is either
> confused as to who is HIS firstborn son or at one point or another in denial
> as to who is HIS firstborn. Since there can be only 1 "firstborn". Unless
> you maintain that the "L-rd" speaking in Shemot 4:22 is not YHVH. Then that
> puts the validity of the entirety of Tanakh in doubt. Or simply that the
> Tanakh has been replaced as invalid and the christian bible stands alone as
> the only Torah.
>
Ray
I was a little upset by this viscious attack of Quinn.
I need to make a clarification on one of my paragraphs above. I wrote:
"For you to reject my understanding (which I am scripturally sharing
This should read "For you to completely reject my understanding ..."
Quinn comes across to me as someone who claims the full knowledge of
Yahweh.
Please forgive me for this exchange. It was joyful to me for a while.
Shalom,
Ray
Fancier Quinn
While the rest of us lovingly and obediently serve HIM out of gratitude for HIS mercy as we stumbled along the way, when we deserved death.
You declare yourself righteous through a false god, while we examine ourselves and know we are unworthy. We have a Creator King Who is ONE! You have 3 gods that have incorporated into the godhead.
We do not worship the same Creator King of the Universe. Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey is ONE not 3 in 1. Nor is HE a corporation.
I have left you to spew your false god crap without saying a thing for a long time and just because no one else will expose your falsehoods you can not hid from Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey. Devarim 13 is your reward.
To All,
I was a little upset by this viscious attack of Quinn.
I need to make a clarification on one of my paragraphs above. I wrote:
"For you to reject my understanding (which I am scripturally sharing
in the very best way I can) ..."
This should read "For you to completely reject my understanding ..."
Quinn comes across to me as someone who claims the full knowledge of
Yahweh.
Please forgive me for this exchange. It was joyful to me for a while.
Shalom,
Ray
Ray
There are big differences between you and I. I'll list a few:
I try to encourage people to study scripture - to think and ponder
over the word in order to understand. I share what I understand so
that others might learn and understand too. You, on the other hand,
bully people and curse them if they disagree with you.
I show my work and how I arrive at what I understand. You, on the
other hand, post a lot of verses and rant. Even in this thread I have
written that I learn from others. You, on the other hand, come across
(at the least, to me) as one who claims the privilege of the full
knowledge of Yahweh.
On this thread (and another) you made false claims of heresy against
me. You wouldn't support your accusations on the other thread and you
won't support them here. Then you made an incredible statement about
Yahweh's firstborn. Incidentally, my Father Yahweh is NOT a liar. You
make false accusations and present false information about me to
distort and deceive.
This thread is about light. The light being cast on this subject only
exposes your darkness.
Tell me about Adam (the man Yahweh created in Genesis 1) Quinn. YOU
made the frothingly hateful accusations about Yahweh's firstborn son
to me and I pointed you to Genesis 1 and Luke 3. You came back even
more hateful than ever, even cursing me but provided nothing
scriptural to discredit me. I have never cursed you yet you hate and
you try to foster hatred against me. So tell me how Adam is not
Yahweh's firstborn son.
You wrote:
> While the rest of us lovingly and obediently serve HIM out of gratitude for HIS mercy as we stumbled along the way, when we deserved death.
judge everything you've written for themselves.
Whether you accept what I write or not is not my concern. I will not
force my understanding of scripture on anyone. My brother Yahshua
didn't force himself on anyone, instead he shared what he understood -
He is the light of the world. My knowledge is not absolute and I will
never make that statement because it will never be true.
I have done my best to show the relationships I have found in
scripture. I have posted step-by-step scriptural verses showing how I
have arrived at everything I have posted here. I have scripturally
tried my best to show - in depth - HOW I know that Yahweh represents
himself as a family - as a Father, a Spirit and a Child. I have
listed practically every verse that references the Spirit and have
listed the qualities of these verses from Genesis to Revelation. I
have encouraged the readers to test what I write against scripture and
comment on it. I post to learn and to share. I continually pray I will
never post anything to intimidate or supress anyone seeking an
understanding of Yahweh.
My writings are extensive and detailed and very well referenced in
scripture. I have not hidden anything Quinn, NOTHING! I have exerted
every effort I know to be as transparent as possible, yet you are
spiritually blind and you cannot see. You hate and you curse and if
anyone disagrees with you, you condemn them.
You are like a firefly over a dark hole luring unsuspecting and
innocent children into bondage. (Does this sound familiar to you?)
Ray
On Dec 21, 1:59 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Fine, then you can have other god/s in the face of Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey, be your
> own god, demand the kingdom of Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey after violating all HIS
> commandments, make war with and overcome HIM in the heavenlies.
> While the rest of us lovingly and obediently serve HIM out of gratitude for
> HIS mercy as we stumbled along the way, when we deserved death.
> You declare yourself righteous through a false god, while we examine
> ourselves and know we are unworthy. We have a Creator King Who is ONE! You
> have 3 gods that have incorporated into the godhead.
> We do not worship the same Creator King of the Universe. Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey is
> ONE not 3 in 1. Nor is HE a corporation.
> I have left you to spew your false god crap without saying a thing for a
> long time and just because no one else will expose your falsehoods you can
> not hid from Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey. Devarim 13 is your reward.
>
LeeJosephO
on nothing and helps nobody.
The combination of imagination and perceived metaphor do not enlighten.
John Medwin
|
Jer 31:9 KJV They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim [is] my firstborn. Fancier - I'm not sure what your post is all about. I read and re-read and could not figure out what firstborn had to do with the post about light. If your problem is with the Christian Jesus, then I am in agreement with you. That Jesus is nothing like what the Apostolic Writinigs tell about Yeshua.
There are those of out there who don't believe in the Trinity or of a Messiah who leads us OUT of Torah, nor do with replace the Tanach. You many read the history of the Jewish people and come to the conclusion that believing in a Messiah that has come is a very Jewish thing to do. Many Jews throughout history have believed in a Messiah, including Rabbi Schmeerson, just a few years back. So please do not insult other believers in Torah on the basis of who we think the Messiah is. The foundation for our new found faith is a Messiah who is brought us into Torah. That should encourage you.
As to firstborn... there are many passages in the NT as well as the Tanach that upon first glance seem to contradict. So... if Israel is the firstborn of YHWH, and then he also picks out a tribe, Ephraim as His firstborn, is it within reason to suggest, that He may also choose a man out of that tribe as His firstborn as well? If the Messiah is not thought of as the firstborn of YHVH, then we are worlds apart anyway. But I think you would find common ground in many of us in forums such as this.
Shalom
-------Original Message------- |
Fancier Quinn
You are a false teacher and prophet trying to turn the hearts of the people from Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey to your false god jesus. You say Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey lied as to who was HIS firstborn and now you say HE lied when HE said HE was the only Savior.
Isaiah 43:3 For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your stead.
11 I, I am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.
and
45:15 Indeed, You are a God Who conceals Himself, the God of Israel, the Savior.
For you say your jesus was the savior, again calling the Holy ONE of Yisrael a Liar and a devil You violate Exodus 20:3. Have no other god in My face!
Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey is NOT a triune being nor a trinity! Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey is ONE!
Devarim 6:4 4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.
You along with Hitler and Luther would be all too happy to destroy the Hebrew people. You are far worse than the Muslim nations in as much as they only wish to kill the physical body of the Jew, you on the other hand wish to destroy the Jewish soul. Covert or die, that is the only choice for the Jew. You use distorted translations and abominable interpretations to twist the Scriptures to ensnare the uneducated and/or hurting, seeking Jew with your deceptions. I have not cursed you, you have cursed yourself by teaching that which is not found in the Hebrew Scriptures, but the sick twisted christian teachings of a false god - jesus, even if you attempt to Hebrewize the name. Which by the way is a feminine spelling. Your jesus is, was not, nor will ever be Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey.
I encourage people to study the Scriptures as it was written by Moshe and the prophets, not the deception of the christians, whose writings can not stand without the twisting and misquoting of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Your jesus for supposedly being the all knowing Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey, proves he didn't know even the Hebrew Scriptures nor Hebrew history very well. Since he did not know that Abiathar was not the high priest, but the only son of the high priest to escape the execution at the Temple by Saul. See 1 Samuel 22 and compare to Mark 2:26
Isaiah 7:14 does not speak of a "virgin" birth. As the term used is "almah" which is young girl, not "betulah " which means female virgin, never having sexual intercourse.
Your jesus did not meet the requirements of the Messiah, neither by birth nor by action.
Job Requisition:
,
Judaism's
MessiahA. Prior Job Experience
Although Jewish tradition holds that in every generation there lives a person who is worthy of being the promised Jewish Messiah, this job has never before been filled. Consequently, it is not possible to possess any prior job experience.
B. Qualifications
The Qualifications of candidates for the job of Jewish Messiah are the pre-requisites for consideration, and they are specified in the Hebrew Bible.
1. Seed of David through Solomon
The Messiah will be a biological descendant of King David from the branch that goes through Solomon, since Solomon is the one who built the Temple:
2 Samuel 7:12-16 – (12) When your days will be completed and you will lie with your forefathers, then I shall raise up your seed after you, that which will issue from your loins, and I shall establish his kingdom. (13) He shall build a Temple for My sake, and I shall make firm the throne of his kingdom forever. (14) I shall be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he goes astray I will chastise him with the rod of men and with afflictions of human beings. (15) But My mercy shall not move away from him as I removed [it] from Saul, whom I removed from before you. (16) And your dynasty and your kingdom shall be confirmed before you forever; your throne will remain firm forever. [See also Is 11:1; Jer 23:5, 30:9, 33:15; Ezek 34:23-24, 37:24-25.]
1 Chronicles 22:9-10 – (9) Behold a son will be born to you; he will be a man of peace, and I shall give him peace from all his enemies around about, for Solomon will be his name, and I shall give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. (10) He shall build a House in My Name, and he shall be to Me as a son, and I to him as a Father, and I shall prepare the throne of his kingdom forever. [See also 1 Kgs 8:15-20; 1 Chron 17:11-15, 22:9-10, 28:3-7.]
2. Spiritual and Military/Political Leader of Israel
The Messiah will be steeped in Torah, an authority who will influence all of Israel to follow Torah in an environment created by his spiritual leadership:
Isaiah 2:3 - And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the L-rd's mount, to the House of the G-d of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths;" for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the Word of the L-rd from Jerusalem.
The Messiah will defeat and conquer the enemies surrounding Israel. As an ordinary mortal, a "flesh & blood" human being, he lives/will live in a world of recognizable realities of military requirements and political alignments. He will have to deal with these realities, and emerge victorious within the constraints that they engender. Nevertheless, his political leadership will be well recognized throughout the world:
Daniel 7:14 - He has been given dominion, honor, and kingship, so that all peoples, nations, and tongues will serve him; his dominion is an eternal dominion that will never be removed, and his kingship will not be destroyed.
3. Married with Children
Although marriage and children are not stated pre-requisites for being the Messiah, there is a clear indication that the Prince, who is the Messiah/King [see Ezek 34:23-24, 37:24], will have children (via marriage) at some point in time during his reign, and they will be entitled to inherit his property:
Ezekiel 46:16-17 – (16) Thus says the L-rd G-d: "If the Prince gives a gift to any of his sons, it is his inheritance to remain in their possession; it is their property by inheritance. (17) But if he gives a gift of his inheritance to one of his servants, then it shall be his [the servant's] until the year of liberty, and then it returns to the Prince; only to his sons shall his inheritance belong.
C. Performance Appraisal Criteria
The Performance Appraisal Criteria comprise several significant messianic agenda items against which the performance of a qualified candidate for the job of Jewish Messiah must be evaluated.
1. Arrival of Elijah the Prophet
Elijah the prophet will precede the Messiah and "pave the way" for his arrival, heralding the commencement of the messianic era:
Malachi 3:23[4:5] – Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of the L-rd.
2. Building the Third Temple in Jerusalem
The presence of the Third Temple is envisioned in what is, perhaps, one of the most detailed and vivid descriptions of the messianic era to be found in the Hebrew Bible - Chapter 37 in the Book of Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 37:26-28 – (26) And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them, and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. (27) And My dwelling place shall be over them; and I will be to them for a G-d, and they shall be to Me as a people. (28) And the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever. [See also Is 33:20; Ezekiel Chapters 40-48.]
Later on, in Chapters 40-48, Ezekiel provides detailed descriptions of the Third Temple and the ritual services to be held within its walls.
3. In-Gathering of Jewish Exiles to Israel
The Messiah will repatriate the Jewish people from the Diaspora to the promised land of Israel in preparation for the repair of the schism that followed Solomon's reign:
Isaiah 11:12 - And he [Messiah] shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. [See also 43:5-6; Jer 16:15, 23:3; Ezek 37:21-22; Zech 10:6-10.]
4. Reunification of Judah and Israel into One People
The messianic agenda calls for the restoration of a unified kingdom for the people of Israel:
Ezekiel 37:22 - And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be as two nations, and they shall not be divided into two kingdoms anymore. [See also the "lead-in", Ezek 37:16-21; Is 11:13.]
5. World Peace
The Messiah will be recognized as a fair judge and peacemaker, and in the messianic era, disputes between countries will be settled through peaceful means and not by war:
Isaiah 2:4 - And he [the Messiah] shall judge among the nations, and he shall reprove many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, and they shall not learn war anymore. [See also , Is 11:6-8, Micah 4:3-4.]
6. Universal Knowledge of G-d
There will prevail a universal knowledge of G-d that will put an end to destruction and violence:
Isaiah 11:9 - They shall not harm and not destroy on all of My holy mountain; for the land shall be as filled with the knowledge of the L-rd, as the waters cover the sea bed. [See also Jer 31:33[34]; Zech 14:9.]
7. Resurrection of the Dead
Most, but not all, of the dead will come back to life. The righteous will live in bliss, and the wicked will live in misery:
Isaiah 26:19 - May Your dead live, 'My corpses shall rise; awaken and sing, you who dwell in the dust, for a dew of lights is your dew, and [to the] earth You shall cast the slackers. [See also Ezek 37:12-13; Dan 12:2.]
According to the New Testament, the Messiah of Christianity is Jesus. Rather than accept (on faith) the claims made by Christians about Jesus being the (Jewish) Messiah promised in the Hebrew Bible, he will be considered here as an applicant for the position of Jewish Messiah, whose credentials and performance will be evaluated using the requirements listed in the "Job Requisition".
A. Prior Job Experience
Jesus satisfied this criterion.
- Qualifications – Did Jesus Qualify for the Job?
1. Seed of David through Solomon
Although the New Testament authors claim that Jesus was the "son of David" (e.g., Mt 1:1; Mk 12:35), the manner of his allegedly miraculous "Virgin Birth" (e.g., Mt 1:18-25; Lk 1:27-35) rules out the possibility of a Davidic lineage for him. According to Jewish Law (e.g., Num 1:18), and as confirmed by recent genetic research, tribal lineage - a blood right - is passed exclusively by a father to his biological sons (via the Y-Chromosome) and, therefore, cannot be transmitted in any other manner, including adoption. Since, according to the New Testament, the Holy Ghost, not Joseph, impregnated the "Virgin Mary", Jesus has no identifiable tribal lineage.
Another problem with the claim to the Davidic throne by Jesus is the matter of the two hopelessly irreconcilable genealogies in the New Testament (Mt 1:1-17; Lk 3:23-38). Christians still cannot agree on whether the genealogy in the Gospel of Luke belongs to Joseph or to Mary. Either way, this is a moot point, since that genealogy goes through Solomon's brother Nathan and, too, a female's genealogy is irrelevant to lineage according to the Hebrew Bible. Perhaps this is the reason that Paul, recognizing the problems with these two genealogies, wrote:
1 Timothy 1:4(KJV) - Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
Titus 3:9(KJV) - But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Note here how Paul, to whom Christians refer as "Rabbi", teaches Christians that some parts of the Bible – genealogies in this case, which include those of Jesus – are akin to fables and foolish questions, which must not be given heed and should be avoided.
2. Spiritual and Military/Political Leader of Israel
When did Jesus serve as spiritual and military/political leader of a unified people of Israel? Though Jesus is referred to as "King of the Jews" in the Four Gospels (e.g., Mt 27:29; Mk 15:9; Lk 23:38; Jn 18:39), there is no historical record or other validated evidence to substantiate that Jesus ever served in such a capacity. Moreover, there exists no extant factual evidence that he was ever recognized as a Torah scholar and authority, or that he ever led soldiers to war and was victorious on the battlefield.
3. Married with Children
Was Jesus ever married and did he (biologically) father any children? The authors of the New Testament are silent on this matter. According to the New Testament, Jesus never married nor did he father any children. Though Christians generally refer to themselves as the "spiritual" children of Jesus, this is not the same as biological children, which are also referred to as seed, offspring, and progeny.
"Candidate" Jesus passes the "Prior Job Experience" test. However, he does not possess the requisite "Qualifications" to be a viable candidate for the job.
Conclusion: Jesus failed to qualify as candidate for the job.
- Performance Appraisal Criteria – Did Jesus Do the Job Right?
Christianity has claimed Jesus as its Messiah. Therefore, the evaluation process continues in order to determine whether he performed that job as required.
1. Arrival of Elijah the Prophet
Jesus claimed that John the Baptist was Elijah:
Matthew 11:10-14(KJV) – (10) For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. (11) Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (12) And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. (13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. (14) And if ye will receive it, this is Elias , which was for to come.
Yet, according to the New Testament, John the Baptist himself denied it:
John 1:21(KJV) - And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
Jesus also claimed that Elijah, when he showed up, was mistreated:
Matthew 17:12(KJV) - But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Yet, nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is such treatment of Elijah foretold, and his mission will be the opposite of that which is described in the New Testament:
Malachi 4:5-6(KJV)[3:23-24 in the Hebrew Bible] – (5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: (6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Moreover, it seems that John the Baptist, alleged to have been Elijah, was rather unsure about Jesus being the Messiah:
Luke 7:19-20(KJV) – (19) And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? (20) When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
Given that Elijah will be the one announcing the arrival of the Messiah, how is it possible that he will not know who the Messiah is? Does this make any sense? The conclusion is that Elijah has not yet returned.
2. Building the Third Temple in Jerusalem
The authors of the New Testament are silent about Jesus having built the Third Temple in Jerusalem, and there is no mention of the Third Temple built after his death on the cross. The historical record of the first century C.E. testifies to the fact that the Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E., and that the Third Temple has not yet been built.
3. In-Gathering of Jewish Exiles to Israel
The authors of the New Testament are silent on whether this occurred during the lifetime of Jesus. The historical record of the first century C.E. testifies to the fact that not only where the all the Jewish people not repatriated to the Holy Land, they were exiled and dispersed into the Diaspora much more than what happened during the previous exile following the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E.
4. Reunification of Judah and Israel into One People
According to a misquoted verse from the Hebrew Bible, cited in Hebrews 8:8, this was not yet the situation at the time of the writing of Hebrews during the first century C.E. Eight centuries after the destruction of the Northern Kingdom of Israel with its population dispersed into exile by Assyria, only a Judean remnant populated the Holy Land.
5. World Peace
The historical record of the first century C.E. testifies to the fact that war, not peace, was raging all over the region of the Holy Land and elsewhere in the known world of that time.
6. Universal Knowledge of G-d
The historical record of the first century C.E. testifies to the fact that paganism was rampant, and that a new religion, which quickly embraced many of these pagan principles, further diverted people from a universal knowledge of G-d.
7. Resurrection of the Dead
Both the historical record of the first century C.E. and the conflicting accounts in the New Testament lead to the conclusion that no resurrection of the dead ever took place, and that the story of the alleged "rising from the dead" of Jesus is a myth.
The performance of "Candidate" Jesus did not meet the stated "Performance Appraisal Criteria".
Conclusion: Jesus failed to do the job right.
- Candidate's Score Card
As was already demonstrated, Jesus did not possess the necessary credentials to qualify him as a candidate for the position of Jewish Messiah. Yet, owing to the fact that he is the declared Messiah of Christianity, it was actually possible to evaluate his performance on the job using the criteria provided in the Hebrew Bible. Together, the results of the two phases of the evaluation clearly demonstrate that Jesus did not meet the requirements that would entitle him to the title of Jewish Messiah.
Your corrupted version of Matthew has lepers not only living in the city but hosting dinner parties as well, which would never be done in the land of Yisrael 2,000+ yrs ago. "Come, let me infect you with a contagious disease!" how could one refuse such a gracious host! as that of Simon the Leper! Yet you christians do not see that a a violation of Numbers 5:2
But then you do not believe Exodus 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. and your jesus causes 5,000+, including the priests to sin in at least 3 ways, and this rebelliousness is not to be punished as decreed in Devarim 13? So not only sinning himself, but causing others to thumb their nose and disobey Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey is to be honored not only as being sinless but elevated to godhood as well? A human is now your god?
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey was going to violate HIS Torah and rape a human woman and sire a bastard child, then desert her and force a man to marry the woman HE defiled, this would then be considered a virgin birth and this mamzer(bastard) would then be HIS son and co-god. This is the way of the gods in the Babylonian, Greek and Roman myths with their demi-gods. As a matter of fact a virgin birth is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Only in the corrupt christian translations is this found.
But then you claim to know more than the prophet and say he did not use the correct word or there are a number of "virgin births" in Yisrael as the prophet Isaiah calls his own wife his virgin after she has birthed him a son. The wife of Ahaz also was one whose child was of a "virgin birth". With all the commonplace virgin births and resurrections in Yisrael perhaps a warning should appear on the travel brochures!
Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey did not birth Ahdahm but formed him from the dust, now you say that too is a lie and that Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey fornicated with the dirt of the earth and sired Ahdahm.
The moderator wrote to me and said I must elaborate on my original statement, and you call it a deliberate attack? I was quite content to leave it at my original 2 line statement.
I can and have backed each of my statements with Scripture.
Fancier Quinn
"Behold, God deals loftily in His power" (Job 36:22). Therefore, "who is a teacher like Him?" A man of flesh and blood who seeks to avenge himself against his fellow, concealing his plans, so that he will not seek rescue, but the Holy One, blessed be He, deals loftily with His strength, and no one is able to escape from his hand, except by returning to Him by repenting. Therefore, we teach HaShem's warning [about punishment] and warn men to repent.
Yirmiyahu 31:8
Through prayer and repentance with supplications will I lead them, along brooks of water will I make them go, on a straight road upon which they will not stumble, for I have become a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.
No jesus was not sired of HaShem, neither was Yisrael. Firstborn is an expression of greatness. Here the Holy One, blessed be He, acknowledged the sale of the birthright, which Jacob bought from Esau, and the blessing bestowed on Ephraim. Not that they opened the womb of a heavenly mother (holy spirit) as Ray teaches.
Paul manufactured jesus and condemned the 12 as they held fast to Judaism and Torah, Paul taught a new christian god, forsaking the Creator King of the Universe, The Holy ONE of Yisrael! Christianity is not warmed-over Judaism they are separate and contrary religious systems. One established by HaShem the other by Paul in opposition to HaShem. Paul taught circumcision was not to be done - it is worthless. HaShem said:
Yechezkel /Ezekiel 44 9. So said the L-rd G-d: No alien of uncircumcised heart or of uncircumcised flesh may enter My Sanctuary, of any alien who is in the midst of the Children of Israel.
|  |
John Medwin
|
I understand where you are coming from. But your arguments are the same ones preachers and many Messianics use.
They say that Yeshua was God because he is a savior.
Isa 43:11 KJV I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.Oba 1:21 KJV And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. So can a man be a savior? Of course he can and will. But what the Tanach is saying is that YHWH is the Ultimate Saviour. It all comes about by His hand. So to say that Yeshua is our saviour is not blasphemous.And I agree, YHWH did not sire Yeshua. Us Messianics have believed too many lies of the church for way too long. YHWH would not impregnate the wife of another man. Nor would YHWH violate his own commands of like to like. Trees bring forth trees, cats bring forth cats, and humans beget humans. Angels got punished for impregnating humans. YHWH would not punish the angels and then do the same thing Himself. The virgin birth is a lie. It is nowhere in any writings. The Book of Matthew is quoting Isaiah and it states that a virgin will CONCEIVE. Once a virgin conceives, she is no longer a virgin. Matthew says "a virgin will be with child" and we picture a mother holding a baby. What Matthew is saying is what Isaiah said, a virgin will conceive or become pregnant. The Talmud says that a virgin can be a woman who had not begun her flow. So for a virgin to conceive is rare, but for a virgin to give birth is outside the order that YHWH established. The virgin birth, as told by the church should be an abomination to every Messianic. YHWH would not impregnate the wife of another man! The problem is we've been told what to believe for so long that we fail to read what is written. Joseph says that Mary was found pregnant before they "came together". That phrase is never about sex - its about her being pregnant before they lived together. The angel tells Joseph that her being pregnant is of the Holy Spirit. What he did not say is that the Holy Spirit did the deed, but that it is of YHWH. Those words were exactly how the rabbis spoke of Tamar being pregnant. Now an angel appears to Mary and tells her what is to come, not what has already taken place! Mary replies (according to the Greek) "how will this come to be"? We have always read this to say, that Mary was already pregnant, but that is not what is written. So I cannot blame you for rejecting the Messianic version of the Messiah. Even though Yeshua always says he had a God and Father, we go and make him into a god too. We say we believe the Shema, yet go on to say that Yeshua and YHWH are both Elohim. We are a confused people, but cut us some slack. We have been told these pagan lies for so long, that it is hard to see the truth. But we are seeing. Not all in one day. Slowing, we are seeing that YHWH is the One True Elohim and He expects us to walk in His Torah. And I think that what you will find over time is that the NT lines up perfectly with the Tanach. You'll find that Yeshua will begin to look more and more like a Jewish Messiah and we'll begin to see less and less opposition to our beliefs, as we learn to base our NT understanding on a better Torah foundation. Shalom
-------Original Message------- |
Fancier Quinn
John Medwin
|
Yes, David and Moshe were saviours. But being a saviour does not make one god. You are thinking like a Christian. My point was exactly that - YHWH sent many saviours, but there is only one God. |
Fancier Quinn
The term Isaiah uses is not virgin = human female, never having sexual intercourse -which in Hebrew is betulah, but young woman/girl - . Isaiah calls his own wife his (what the KJV incorrectly interprets as "virgin") the Hebrew word - almah after she has given birth to his son. Since Ahaz's wife was supposedly a "virgin" - almah = young woman/girl after she gives birth to Hezekiah, Isaiah's wife was supposedly a "virgin" - almah = young woman/girl after she gives birth to his son, Avrahom also referred to Sarah as his "virgin" - almah and Yosef's wife was supposedly a "virgin" - almah = young woman/girl after she gives birth to jesus. With so many "virgin" births, they are almost commonplace occurrences, ditto in regard to resurrections - perhaps the travel brochures to that part of the world should carry warning labels!
LeeJosephO
> Yes, David and Moshe were saviours. But ...
The word "but" signifies a reversal of thought, and we cannot have it
both ways.
Along with many other things, coming out of Christianity requires
calling none other than Yahuah "Saviour" ... and not because of where
or how that word appears in Scripture. Rather, we must be purged of
all "Jesus worship".
Fancier Quinn
Nehemiah 9:27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest [them] from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S
jesus or any other name you call the gospel character was not HaShem, he was NOT a messiah, much less THE Messiah. He simply did not meet the Scriptural requirements.
Dovid and Moshe were saviours, they were messiahs as are all kings and prophets, they were not gods, nor were they HaShem.
LeeJosephO
>> jesus or any other name you call the gospel character was not HaShem ...
On that, we are agreed.
>> he was NOT a messiah, much less THE Messiah. He simply did not meet the Scriptural requirements.
able to present the argument and I still have questions of my own.
Ray
http://www.messiahtruth.com/wanted.html
Posting other peoples work as her own is not new to her. She does not
understand what she writes and when she writes, as now, she writes
with a fury. Whatever works for her. She does not understand any
meaning of scripture, only what others understand, and she has built
her house on the foundations of other peoples work.
Quinn, you made this statement to others concerning me:
> You have called the Jewish people blind, stupid, hard hearted, stubborn for not believing in your false god and ignorant of our own Scriptures. You have cursed us! You call Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey a liar and a devil, as only the devil lies.
I never said any of these horrible things, now prove your statements!
Prove them now!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Jer 31:9 KJV
> > They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I
> > will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein
> > Fancier - I'm not sure what your post is all about. I read and re-read
> > and could not figure out what firstborn had to do with the post about
> > light. If your problem is with the Christian Jesus, then I am in agreement
> > with you. That Jesus is nothing like what the Apostolic Writinigs tell
> > about Yeshua.
>
> > There are those of out there who don't believe in the Trinity or of a
> > Messiah who leads us OUT of Torah, nor do with replace the Tanach. You many
> > read the history of the Jewish people and come to the conclusion that
> > believing in a Messiah that has come is a very Jewish thing to do. Many
> > Jews throughout history have believed in a Messiah, including Rabbi
> > Schmeerson, just a few years back. So please do not insult other believers
> > in Torah on the basis of who we think the Messiah is. The foundation for
> > our new found faith is a Messiah who is brought us into Torah. That should
> > encourage you.
>
> > As to firstborn... there are many passages in the NT as well as the
> > Tanach that upon first glance seem to contradict. So... if Israel is the
> > firstborn of YHWH, and then he also picks out a tribe, Ephraim as His
> > firstborn, is it within reason to suggest, that He may also choose a man out
> > of that tribe as His firstborn as well? If the Messiah is not thought of as
> > the firstborn of YHVH, then we are worlds apart anyway. But I think you
> > would find common ground in many of us in forums such as this.
>
> > Shalom
>
>
> > *From:* Fancier Quinn <fancierqu...@gmail.com>
> > *Date:* 12/21/07 13:05:31
> > *To:* TheNar...@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject:* [Narrow Gate 1525] Re: Metaphors of Scripture - Light
> > jesus or whatever your call him is not the firstborn son of YHVH, for YHVH
> > Himself says Yisrael is HIS firstborn. Shemot 4:22 And you shall say to
> > Pharaoh, 'So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel." '. To say jesus
> > is the firstborn of YHVH is to call YHVH a liar and as a result of HIS lie -
> > a devil. If this is not calling YHVH a liar and a devil, then HE is either
> > confused as to who is HIS firstborn son or at one point or another in denial
> > as to who is HIS firstborn. Since there can be only 1 "firstborn". Unless
> > you maintain that the "L-rd" speaking in Shemot 4:22 is not YHVH. Then that
> > puts the validity of the entirety of Tanakh in doubt. Or simply that the
> > Tanakh has been replaced as invalid and the christian bible stands alone as
> > the only Torah.
>
Fancier Quinn
Then you have no right to use Scripture - Hebrew or christian as these are not your works!
I have many writings, charts, grafts, photos, on the computer and in hard copy in my possession, some have been sent to me without original source, as I have explained to you on numerous occasions. I do not have time to sit there and trace every word to its original source as you seem to do.
You seem to imply that only you are the source of truth and no one but you has access to it unless you deem to share it. The truth is free, a gift of HaShem, no one person has all the truth, each of us has been given truth in part, we are to each bring our part to the table and place our parts together.
If anyone cares to read what Quinn just posted, You can go here:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/wanted.html
Posting other peoples work as her own is not new to her. She does not
understand what she writes and when she writes, as now, she writes
with a fury. Whatever works for her. She does not understand any
meaning of scripture, only what others understand, and she has built
her house on the foundations of other peoples work.
Quinn, you made this statement to others concerning me:
> You have called the Jewish people blind, stupid, hard hearted, stubborn for not believing in your false god and ignorant of our own Scriptures. You have cursed us! You call Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey a liar and a devil, as only the devil lies.
I never said any of these horrible things, now prove your statements!
Prove them now!
Ray
not disputed the verses you quoted. You distort and misrepresent to
others what I have shared on this board.
You made this statement (among many) to others concerning me:
things by telling others that I wrote them. If you have any worth at
all then you PRESENT YOUR PROOF - NOWl. Substantiate your wicked and
vile accusations with direct web links so that all of us can see your
face. Your perceptions do not hold weight.
On Dec 23, 12:43 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have shown that you have said HaShem lies for He never said jesus was HIS
> firstborn. I have shown that HaShem said Yisrael was HIS firstborn and you
> say that is untrue that jesus was and that jesus was born of the heavenly
> mother namely the "holy spirit" Who is your god's wife.
>
> Then you have no right to use Scripture - Hebrew or christian as these are
> not your works!
>
> I have many writings, charts, grafts, photos, on the computer and in hard
> copy in my possession, some have been sent to me without original source, as
> I have explained to you on numerous occasions. I do not have time to sit
> there and trace every word to its original source as you seem to do.
>
> You seem to imply that only you are the source of truth and no one but you
> has access to it unless you deem to share it. The truth is free, a gift of
> HaShem, no one person has all the truth, each of us has been given truth in
> part, we are to each bring our part to the table and place our parts
> together.
>
Fancier Quinn
Since you can not seem to understand in any other way The Creator King of the Universe did not get laid, grab a piece of human ass, other other course, vulgar way you wish to describe the act. Neither did HaShem boff some celestial bimbo, and birth out your jesus or any other being.
You are an Anti-Semite, your hate the Jewish people, which is why you were booted from my group, you believe us to have no understanding of our own Scriptures, which you have said, repeatedly. For the Hebrew Scripture do not follow your interpretation which is strictly your own as it is neither Hebraic nor christian. I have not saved every piece of blasphemous email you ever sent me directly or posted to the many groups. Even if I had and would post it, you would simply deny it to be your post. It would be a matter of Quinn posted, Ray posted. Nothing could be proven in the end. You have your father/mother/child god, which is not HaShem the Holy ONE of Yisrael, The Creator King of the Universe. You teach a false god.
Devarim/Deuteronomy 13
You can repent or you have cursed yourself, sealing your fate, for leading others from the worship of HaShem, the Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey, The Holy ONE of Yisrael, The Creator King of the Universe!
Ray
What is this?! You cannot provide a web link of even one vile
accusation you have made against me? What are you to make such wicked
unsubstantiated statements against anyone?
You claim I sent you "blasphemous" email, and you associate me with
hate mongers and murderers yet you provide nothing but hateful words
to back your claims. I am not the one spewing hatred and I am not the
one trying to kill. Do you hate me because I hold you accountable for
your statements?
I stand innocent before Yahweh and I demand you validate your claims.
Provide web links of what you have claimed against me to this thread
to validate your statements. Your attack is upon me and I am innocent.
Now the light is upon you to prove your words.
I do not stand on the works or wisdom of others as you do and I have
and I will provide everything asked of me concerning my understanding
of scripture. I have provided scriptural validation for every point I
have shared here.
Where have I ever told you or anyone that Ahdahm opened the womb of a
celestial goddess or that HaShem had sexual relations with the earth?
You are wicked and despicable! Prove your statements! Adam was created
in the plural image of Yahweh by Yahweh. Adam was Yahweh's first child
created from the dust of the earth and Yahweh breathed the breath of
life in him and gave him life. This is what the records of Genesis
state.
Now either prove your vile statements against me with truth or stand
before everyone so they can see you for what you are.
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Fancier Quinn
Here is one of your attacks on me.
But you know, by not acknowledging the person of the Holy Spirit, you are not worthy to write about such matters - you are only a servant and a child-bearer of
a man.
| Ray |
|
Nov 7 2006, 12:01 pm |
John Medwin
|
Quinn - Once again, you are addressing accepted beliefs of Christianity, that is never supported in the NT. Nowhere does the NT say that HaShem sired the Messiah. The NT quotes Isaiah that says that a virgin shall conceive. Nowhere does the NT say that God impregnated Mary, the NT only says it was of YHWH's doing (His plan). I understand your destain for such beliefs, I feel the same way.
But you need to be aware that not all Messianics believe such nonsense. There are many of us who serve YHWH, who is the God of Yeshua. Yeshua prays to YHWH, calls Him his Father, and even in the Book of Revelation refers to YHWH as "my Father" and "my God". Even Paul continues to make a distinction to "God the Father" and "the Messiah Yeshua". It is unfortunate that so many Messianics cannot see that the Messiah is the servant of YHWH and that the servant of YHWH cannot possibly be YHWH.
It was the Roman Catholic Church that introduced all these pagan concepts and the Book of Revelation says that this whore has many daughters. Us Torah Believers are slowing casting off such pagan beliefs.
So the problems you have with the man/god Jesus is nothing like the Messiah that the NT writes about. And when we come to see such truths we often get booted out of our churches and Messianic groups and are becoming united to the Jewish people. So please, leave the martyr complex behind. If you tone done the venom, I think you'd find much in common with many of us. Zechariah says in the last days 10 men will grab the tzit tzits of the Jew saying teach us of your God. Unfortunately, too many of those Jews, instead of teaching, seem to curse us and spit on us instead. I trust your words and actions will be those pleasing to HaShem and begin to teach and not spew.
Baruch HaShem
-------Original Message-------
|
John Medwin
|
Not sure your point... we appear to be saying the same thing. One can be a saviour and not be YHWH. That is somewhat of a reversal for most Christians. They think the 2 words mean the same thing and they do not. Only YHWH is our Saviour. He is the ones to raise up men to save us in various ways. Even Mary declares that YHWH is her saviour.
Luk 1:47 KJV And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.And I agree, we need to worship that One that Yeshua worshipped - YHWH. -------Original Message------- |
Fancier Quinn
Messiah is to be of the bloodline of Shlomo/Solomon - your jesus/yeshua did not qualify for his human father was from Natan, adoption does not qualify, nor does having G-d as a daddy qualify, unless Shlomo birthed G-d, or Shlomo and his brother Natan are now one in the same. Your jesus or whatever spelling you prefer (which are all feminine - btw) did not qualify by bloodline as Messiah, nor by his actions. This ain't the dude - boys and girls! There is no second shot clean up in the Scriptures, so jesus doesn't get to finish things on the return trip.
There is only One G-d. G-d is the Creator. We often use the Name "Hashem," when referring to the Creator.
The Creator is only One. The Creator is not one of two, nor one of three. The Creator is not one of a species, not one of a type, nor one of a family or group. There are no other true gods. There are other things that have power, but none of them are G-d, and none of them are like G-d. (Sometimes they are called by the term "gods," because in Hebrew that word means "something that has powers," or "something that has might." Therefore, even a powerful warrior could be called by the Hebrew word for god.)
Judaism believes that if you have sinned, all you need to do is repent and mend your ways. "Return to Hashem," say Moses and all the Prophets,"and Hashem will receive you because Hashem is very merciful." (See Deuteronomy 4:30; Jeremiah Chapter 3; Ezekiel Chapters 14, 18, 33; Joel Chapter 2; Zachariah Chapter 1, Malachi Chapter 3, to mention a few). And "Let the evil forsake his way, and the sinner his plans, and return to Hashem, Who will have mercy on him; to our G-d, for He is very forgiving." (Isaiah 55:7)
Blood is not necessary for atonement. This is taught in many places, including Hosea Chapter 14, where it says, "Israel, return to Hashem your G-d, for you have fallen because of your sins. Take with you words, and return to Hashem; say to Him, 'Take away all sin, and receive us graciously, and will we give calves with our lips.'" In other words, instead of sacrifices, when we cannot bring sacrifices we will pray, and we will bring Hashem words. Hashem will then receive us and forgive us for our sins.
So your jesus did not have to die, be crucified, executed to make atoning sacrifice for anyone's sins- not even his own. Which he admitted to having by going to the mikveh.
John Medwin
|
Quinn - sorry you see the word virgin as blasphemous. I was only using the word that the Brentons 1851 English Septuagint version used. Guess those rabbis didn't get your memo.
As to the blood line of Yeshua, try reading Matthew 1 and you'll see Solomon in the lineage of Yeshua. You are correct that the Messiah must come out of the loins (Greek word 'sperma') of David. So if the preachers were right that God impregnated Mary, then you are right, and Yeshua would not be the Messiah. But once again, read the NT carefully and you'll see it never says what you think it does.
I do take issue with your whole atonement issue though. You are missing the point of the Tanach. Read Psalm 51 for clarity. The prophets continually rebuked Israel for going through the motions. They offered sacrifices, but their heart was far from YHWH. The prophets would tell them to keep their sacrifices. But never meant to stop doing them. Psalm 51 says get your heart right, then your offerings will be pleasing. Sorry, the Torah is build upon sacrifices. If a temple cannot be built, build a tabernacle. As much as I love my Jewish brothers, I'd have to say that todays Judaism in not walking the faith of the Torah.
Simply read Ezek 44+ for a look at the Messianic age and you'll see sacrifices again. So you are fighting against the theology of the preachers, once again. Yeshua did not come to do away with the Torah, including sacrifices according to his own words. He came to conquer sin, as in the sin that brings death - as in the kind that Adam ushered in. You may note that right now, everyone sleeps with their fathers. When Messiah conquers death, all the dead will rise. And no, that part has not been fulfilled yet. |
Fancier Quinn
The word "virgin" is not what is blasphemous, but saying it is found as a quote from Isaiah is.
You did not answer the question regarding the virgin harlot of Proverbs 30:20
Moderator
On Dec 23, 9:05 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The rabbis not translate the writings of the prophets, they only translated
> the Torah into the Septuagint. So your argument does not hold water.
Septuagint? If was not "Jewish Rabbis" then who?
> The word "virgin" is not what is blasphemous, but saying it is found as a
> quote from Isaiah is.
7:14 appears only 7 times in all of scripture. Four times as "vrgin,"
twice as "maid," and once as "damsel." Would using "maid" or "damsel"
also be blasphemous if you did not agree with the translator?
Blasphemy is speaking evil of YHVH or being contemptuous or irreverent
toward Him. To quote a translation, even if your consider it a "mis"-
translation is not blasphemous. There is no evil, contemptuous or
irreverent intent here.
We know there are problems in moving from any language to another via
translation. NO translation is pure and THE WORD of YHVH, so which
version would you have an English reader use?
> You did not answer the question regarding the virgin harlot of Proverbs
> 30:20
"harlot" of verse 20 with the "maid" of verse 19. The comparision in
verse 20 is between (Pro 30:19) "the way of a man with a maid (almah)"
and (Pro 30:20) "the way of an adulterous woman." These are not the
same. Pro 30:18 speaks of "four (things) which I know not." These four
things are then listed in verse 19. Verse 20 "the way of an adulterous
woman" is a separate item and, if included in the list of things
"which I know not" would be the "fifth" thing.
~ Moderator
Ray
First the link is not valid. The link you provided is to my profile
(you really have to do better than this). However, if your intent is
to link to your website then you need to open it for all to see so
everyone can read our communications in entirety. You made different
statements over a series of posts and I provided an observation and
counter points. Anyone can change any written word. So you need to
open your web site for all to see or back off of this.
Don't forget that you read much of what I had written on other web
sites and invited me to join yours. I was your first member, I recall.
We were discussing scripture, remember?
Also, you provide no time line on these messages which are presently
unaccessible to anyone. Communications taken out of text can easily be
misinterpreted and falsely projected. You have to share all of it or
it is useless.
I don't need to make up anything about you. All I need to do is hold
you accountable for what you say and you do the rest.
You have made wicked allegations about me. YOU have attacked me. I
have called you on this and you are trying to wiggle out of it. Before
Yahweh, prove yourself! Show all of us what you are. Provide web
links to these hideous things you claim are true or everyone will see
for themselves what you are really like, 'Rabbi'
On Dec 23, 7:07 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> HaShem does not have a plural image, so your god is not HaShem.
>
> Here is one of your attacks on me.
>
> But you know, by not acknowledging the person of the Holy Spirit, you are
> not worthy to write about such matters - you are only a servant and a
> child-bearer of
> a man.
>
> Ray
Fancier Quinn
The rabbis agreed only to translate the Torah portion into Greek, it is not said who did the translating of the Prophets and Writings. It was not the 72 Rabbis that translated the Torah portion. Then we only have the Hebrew records that stating so, and most christians say the Jews lied and rewrote their history and the Scriptures, who can take the word of a Jew? particularly a Rabbi? especially 72 of them.
Who changed the order of the books from the Hebrew arrangement to the christian version (even in the christian bible Luke states the Hebraic order Luke 24:44) whoever changed the divisions makes their jesus out to be a liar or a fool for not knowing the christian divisions, that is nothing new, since Matthew is full of errors, for an all knowing god jesus sure didn't know the Hebrew Scriptures nor Hebrew history, blows that idea. Who added the chapters and verse divisions? Who added punctuation? Since the Scriptures were not written in this manner?
Greetings Quinn,
Fancier Quinn
You lie again for what is > Nov 7 2006, 12:01 pm, if not a date and time?
Quinn,
First the link is not valid. The link you provided is to my profile
(you really have to do better than this). However, if your intent is
to link to your website then you need to open it for all to see so
everyone can read our communications in entirety. You made different
statements over a series of posts and I provided an observation and
counter points. Anyone can change any written word. So you need to
open your web site for all to see or back off of this.
Don't forget that you read much of what I had written on other web
sites and invited me to join yours. I was your first member, I recall.
We were discussing scripture, remember?
Also, you provide no time line on these messages which are presently
unaccessible to anyone. Communications taken out of text can easily be
misinterpreted and falsely projected. You have to share all of it or
it is useless.
I don't need to make up anything about you. All I need to do is hold
you accountable for what you say and you do the rest.
You have made wicked allegations about me. YOU have attacked me. I
have called you on this and you are trying to wiggle out of it. Before
Yahweh, prove yourself! Show all of us what you are. Provide web
links to these hideous things you claim are true or everyone will see
for themselves what you are really like, 'Rabbi'
--
"If you don't understand weapons, you don't understand fighting. If
you don't understand fighting you don't understand war. If you don't
John Medwin
|
The rabbis tie the adulterous woman to "the way of a man to a maiden"? I guess that's why many of us don't always believe everything the rabbis do. Context, context, context. Oi vey, talk about a stretch! The proverb is about things too wonderful to behold. That doesn't say much for those rabbis!
Compare verse 18 to verses 15, 21, 29 and you'll see that each section is comparing similar things. Best change the topic, you've lost your credibility.
And I suspect that there are few that are really hearing what you are saying because you have such a nasty way of saying them. It may be in the NT, but the saying is still true, a tree is known by it's fruit.
-------Original Message-------
|
Moderator
On Dec 23, 10:36 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Rabbis tie Proverbs 30:20 to 19 almah. Rebeka is referred to as betulah
> - female indoor plumbing type person, Virgin as in never having sexual
> intercourse, this word is NOT used in Isaiah.
Yehudah would stand. Ahaz would be waiting a very long time indeed if
this was only to apply to Marah giving birth to Yahoshea some 750
years later. A double meaning must be applied to this verse if we are
to make it part of the prophecy of Mashiach, which is exactly what
'christianity' has done.
> Almah -young female, indoor
> plumbing type person, period, nothing about the status of her hymen,
> Avrahom, Ahaz, and Isaiah all refer to their wives as almah even after they
> gave birth, so then the only conclusion is, that there were a number of
> women never having sexual relations, even though married, that were giving
> birth.Shoots that be fruitful and multiply commandment in the foot! I will
> warn my congregation before they allow their virgin daughters, indoor
> plumbing type, female people to go to Yisrael, and if they should come back
> pregnant not to be surprised. Must be something in the water, huh?
"gone off" on.
> The rabbis agreed only to translate the Torah portion into Greek, it is not
> said who did the translating of the Prophets and Writings. It was not the 72
> Rabbis that translated the Torah portion.
of the same 72? Does it really matter? Because it may not have been
the same 72 that translated the Torah, does it make those who did
translate the Nevi'im and Ketubim into Greek completely inept?
> Then we only have the Hebrew
> records that stating so, and most christians say the Jews lied and rewrote
> their history and the Scriptures, who can take the word of a Jew?
> particularly a Rabbi? especially 72 of them.
have slapped the same broad label on anyone and everyone with whom you
disagree. Just how big is that chip on your shoulder? Hmm... let's see:
> Who changed the order of the books from the Hebrew arrangement to the
> christian version (even in the christian bible Luke states the Hebraic order
> Luke 24:44) whoever changed the divisions makes their jesus out to be a liar
> or a fool for not knowing the christian divisions, that is nothing new,
> since Matthew is full of errors, for an all knowing god jesus sure didn't
> know the Hebrew Scriptures nor Hebrew history, blows that idea. Who added
> the chapters and verse divisions? Who added punctuation? Since the
> Scriptures were not written in this manner?
them as what they are - the work of men who make mistakes. We are all
imperfect.
I believe the "fools" and "liars" are the men who have introduced
their personal beliefs, their "theology," into scripture through
twisting their translations or versions. We have many examples in
front of us where exactly that went on.
As imperfect as the divisions of chapters and verses are, I'm thankful
for them because, as an example,
itwouldbeverydifficulttoreadscripturewithoutbreaksintextpunctuationchaptersandversesbecauseeverypassagewouldreadjustlikethis
and -
howwouldweknowtodiscussyeshiyah714withoutchapterandversereferences
Is it frustrating when I see how some passages were altered to promote
personal beliefs? Yes, but we work with the tools with which we are
provided. No "translation" or "version" is THE WORD of YHVH. Our
responsibility is to study and search for the truth using what we have
at hand.
~ Moderator
Ray
not say anything about you that I cannot validate for others to see
but as I wrote, I don't need to. You're doing a pretty good job of
dirtying yourself without any of my help.
I have a right to defend myself. Now provide the board the links you
must have to validate your personal attack on me. So far you have not
provided even one link to validate your untrue statements.
If this is how you teach scripture then your flock is being led by a
false teacher. You know the words but your heart is dark. You do not
understand what the words communicate and the sad part is, you seem to
be above learning.
I wrote this today at 1:45 pm
as you do.
On Dec 23, 10:49 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You asked for a quote - I gave it, now you are not happy with a quote. Now
> you want a link, if one was provided you would still not be happy. You said
> you never insulted me, and you have. I quoted you.You are a liar. I said
> this would prove nothing more than Quinn said, Ray said. No you were not the
> first member, so you have lied yet again. I had to apologize to the group
> for allowing you to join. I was lead to believe you were open to learning
> the Hebraic interpretation of Scripture. As it turned out you were only
> looking for another forum to spew your heretical teachings. For the record I
> did not boot you from the group my spouse did, saying there was no reason to
> continue to let you hurl insults and spew anti-Semitic venom.
>
> You lie again for what is > Nov 7 2006, 12:01 pm, if not a date and time?
>
Fancier Quinn
Believe what you want, agree with ray and believe that your god is a child as well as a father/mother.
Calling me in essence a sperm depository and a slave, implying I did not receive S'mikhah, now who can say LaShonRah?
Fancier Quinn
John Medwin
|
Well if you think that the way of a man with a maid is as wonderful as a whore, then we're simply not on the wrong page. Sex is a wonderful thing, but adultery is not!
You keep spewing and can't seem to hear or notice what I have written. I worship YHWH and YHWH alone. I do not worship the Messiah. I know the difference. (and I do not think that YHWH impregnated anybody - for the last time!!!!) You paint with a broad brush that is not very accurate. We do not all believe as you think we do.
As to sperm depository - what are you talking about? We are here to debate Scriptures - why are you getting personal and spewing all this trash? That is why your words are falling to the ground on this forum. It is amazing how your words seem to carry such hatred that travels right over the Internet. That is the rotten fruit to which I am referring. Solid theology that is rooted in hatred is still rotten. |
Fancier Quinn
Your jesus was NOT the messiah. He was not of the proper lineage, not did he do the acts of the messiah.
Yes, I have quite enough how Jews are every bit as vile as the new testament says they are are how the christian god has rejected us for not worshiping jesus, the messiah that was not. christians are worse than Islam, Islam only wishes to kill our body and christians desire to kill the soul of the Jew.
Once again the verses are discussing things that leave no mark that they were there, not the wonders of adultery as opposed to sexual relations with any woman. For verse 19 never implies these 2 were married. Or do you believe only married people have sexual relations? Well, except for all those virgin births, that never were. Perhaps you believe in recycled virgins. Almah means young human female with NO regard to the status of her hymen! Almah does not mean "virgin"- never having sexual relations, it means young female person. Isaiah used this as a term of endearment after his wife gave birth, he did say imply that his son was the result of a virgin birth, neither was Hezekiah born of a virgin- never having sexual relations mother. Just as a man today would introduce his wife as his "young bride" even after they celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary.
Moderator
So we see that you are upset about Ray calling you a "sperm depository
and a slave." I have read your post of Ray's comments and while what
he said could be represented as that, I don't believe he meant to
degrade or insult you.
I don't know what interaction came before or after the comments of Ray
that you posted, so it is impossible to evaluate them in context.
Could your reaction to his comments be a little overboard? Were his
comments in response to a perceived insult or attack from you?
Quinn, whatever the circumstances were then, you are in a complete
"attack" mode now. You share very little that helps us understand why
you seem so riled up. Could you explain with scripture why your
position or belief is any more valid than another's on this forum?
Otherwise it seems that you response is a gross over-reaction. Perhaps
you should open a topic about what you see as the true identity of
'Jesus' from your "Jewish" perspective to educate and inform us.
On Dec 24, 12:34 am, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ray said he never insulted me, and demanded that I show where, when he did. I
While I value and welcome free expression of ideas and I learn much
for differing opinions - even if they seem extreme, I must say that
the recent exchange I have observed on this forum in this thread would
have insulted many. Including your following statement:
> Your jesus was NOT the messiah. He was not of the proper lineage, not did he
> do the acts of the messiah.
futile attempt to reason otherwise with you. Why not attempt to show
us why he could not have been the Mashiach?
> Yes, I have quite enough how Jews are every bit as vile as the new testament
> says they are are how the christian god has rejected us for not worshiping
> jesus, the messiah that was not. christians are worse than Islam, Islam only
> wishes to kill our body and christians desire to kill the soul of the Jew.
the Jew"? By turning the "Jew" from following Torah? By abandoning the
Festivals of YHVH? By worshiping "Jesus"? Again, I reject the broad
brush with which you have painted all who follow Yahoshea.
I "desire" none of these things. I do not identify with 'christians.'
I follow a rabbi who is of the Tribe of Yahudah. He knew the TaNaK
very well, probably better than anyone else that ever lived. He highly
regarded it, quoted it often and almost exclusively taught only its
truths. Most 'christian' denominations have perverted his teachings -
twisted them to build their new religions. This was not his doing. Man
is responsible for these perversions, NOT YHVH or Yahoshea.
> Once again the verses are discussing things that leave no mark that they
> were there, not the wonders of adultery as opposed to sexual relations with
> any woman. For verse 19 never implies these 2 were married.
that the way of a man with, as you claim, an "adulterous whore," would
be something that would be "too wonderful"? In context your
interpretation appears out of place and inconsistent.
~ Moderator
LeeJosephO
>> Your jesus is one of the demi-gods ... A creation of Paul ...
Shaul-Paul did not create anything or anyone. Christianity's false
image/representation of The Messiah came on the scene later.
I hope somebody reading this can see that all this rhetorical argument
and "you, you, you" stuff is foolishness. However done, Yahuah alone
saves and The Messiah of Scripture bore/bears witness of Him in right
fellowship and worship.
Fancier Quinn
I did post the reasons along with the Scriptures as to why jesus is not the messiah. There is no reason to continue to post the same information again that you do not even choose to see.
Have Ray as your teacher believing in a child/father/mother god, that is not HaShem, The Holy ONE of Yisrael, The Creator King of the Universe!
There is only One G-d. G-d is the Creator. We often use the Name "Hashem," when referring to the Creator.
The Creator is only One. The Creator is not one of two, nor one of three. The Creator is not one of a species, not one of a type, nor one of a family or group. There are no other true gods. There are other things that have power, but none of them are G-d, and none of them are like G-d. (Sometimes they are called by the term "gods," because in Hebrew that word means "something that has powers," or "something that has might." Therefore, even a powerful warrior could be called by the Hebrew word for god.)
Judaism believes that if you have sinned, all you need to do is repent and mend your ways. "Return to Hashem," say Moses and all the Prophets,"and Hashem will receive you because Hashem is very merciful." (See Deuteronomy 4:30; Jeremiah Chapter 3; Ezekiel Chapters 14, 18, 33; Joel Chapter 2; Zachariah Chapter 1, Malachi Chapter 3, to mention a few). And "Let the evil forsake his way, and the sinner his plans, and return to Hashem, Who will have mercy on him; to our G-d, for He is very forgiving." (Isaiah 55:7)
Blood is not necessary for atonement. This is taught in many places, including Hosea Chapter 14, where it says, "Israel, return to Hashem your G-d, for you have fallen because of your sins. Take with you words, and return to Hashem; say to Him, 'Take away all sin, and receive us graciously, and will we give calves with our lips.'" In other words, instead of sacrifices, when we cannot bring sacrifices we will pray, and we will bring Hashem words. Hashem will then receive us and forgive us for our sins.
Yeshayahu/Isaiah 42: 8. I am the Lord, that is My Name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to the graven images.
Yeshayahu/Isaiah 48: 11. For My sake, for My sake I will do, for how shall it be profaned? And My honor I will not give to another.
HaShem is alone on the throne of heaven, and Paul's statements of jesus sitting of the right hand of HaShem are further proof of his rebelliousness and violation of the Scriptures.
Yeshayahu/Isaiah 45:
21. Declare and present, let them even take counsel together; who announced this from before, [who] declared it from then? Is it not I, the Lord, and there are no other gods besides Me, a just and saving God there is not besides Me.
10. And you trusted in your evil, you said, "No one sees me." Your wisdom and your knowledge-that perverted you. And you said to yourself, "I am [it], and there is none besides me."
Twice HaShem says HE will not share HIS glory with another. Paul says that there is glory of HaShem with Jesus and glory of the execution stake.
The choice as with the matter of circumcision is do you desire the kingdom of Paul which is in rebellion to the kingdom of HaShem, or the kingdom of HaShem.
Paul violated not only Shemot/Exodus 20:3 Have no other god in MY face, he also violates Devarim/Deuteronomy 13:5 not to start a new religion.Not to mention again that Paul says circumcision is worthless either of the flesh or the heart and HaShem says that no one who is not circumcised in the flesh and of the heart shall enter HIS kingdom.
Yechezkel/Ezekiel 44:9. So said the Lord God: No alien of uncircumcised heart or of uncircumcised flesh may enter My Sanctuary, of any alien who is in the midst of the Children of Israel.
What you are then saying is the Prophets did not give the true instruction of HaShem - Paul was the only one from the creation of the world to get it right.
John Medwin
|
According to your standards, Moshe is in rebellion as well. You rebuke Paul for halting circumcision, yet Moshe did the same thing!!!
Jos 5:5 ASV For all the people that came out were circumcised; but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, they had not circumcised.So why did not Moshe have the children born in the wilderness circumcised? I don't know either. But equal weights and equal measures. The standard by which you condemn Paul is the standard to which you must judge Moshe. Peter tells us that the words of Paul are hard to understand and indeed they are. We do not know the problems to which Paul was addressing. There are several kinds of circumcisions going on at the time. Since Paul lived as Jew and said he never transgressed Torah, I have to assume that he was addressing something other than the Torah command. I suspect Paul was addressing whether the Gentiles needed to accept the Oral Law of the Pharisees, and convert via circumcision. Pauls words ring true though. Its not that circumcision is not of value. But is the Jew who is circumcised but lives like a heathen any better off than us Gentiles who live as Jews, keep Torah, the Feast days, eat kosher but haven't gotten circumcised yet? We also don't know the circumstances to which these folks were living under. Obviously, there are circumstances to where circumcision was halted, but as you pointed out, before we enter into the Promised Land (Messianic kingdom), we will need to do as Joshua did and put all things in order. Once again, your viewpoint is that of the preachers. They tell us that Paul and Yeshua never kept or promoted Torah. Upon closer look, you will see that not only did they both live that way, but their whole message was in fact based on it. Salvation is based upon Torah, which is why the NT repeats over and over and over again we are to keep the commandments if we really love God and the Messiah. And you are right, all a Jew needs to do is repent. But to repent means you first have to have first "pented". Us Gentiles cannot return to something we never had. Somebody has to take us by the hand and lead us into Torah - something by the way - Jews seems reluctant to do today. This Yeshua brought me into Torah. I don't know if he is anybody else's Messiah, but this I know - he brought ME into Torah. I am indebted to him. That makes him my saviour (little S). That makes him a faithful servant of YHWH. (see Ezek 34:24) Because of him I am know understanding who the Holy One of Israel is. And I don't know where you get all this "we hate the Jews" thing. The NT tells us that we are grafted into you! The pagan church tells us to graft you into us, but that is not what the NT says. We are to grab the Jew and say "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God". What makes it difficult is when the Jews don't have the heart of Naomi and instead tell us what a bunch of filthy pagans we are. -------Original Message-------
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LeeJosephO
> What you are then saying is the Prophets did not give the true instruction
> of HaShem - Paul was the only one from the creation of the world to get it
> right.
words into damnable sectarian positions does not bear right witness of
anyone.
Moshe and the Prophets bore right witness, Paul was a crippled and
imperfect passive-agressive opportunist doing his best to further
spread that same witness and Peter was not the first pope. The
Messiah of Scripture bore/bears right witness of HaShem, that witness
is not about himself and sectarian religion is about distracting
people away from the simplicity of all that.
Salvation awaits those who endure to the end, and YHWH makes that
possible.
Fancier Quinn
The Creator says not to start a new religion - Paul does just that. The Creator says there is none beside HIM - Paul says jesus sits at HIS right hand.
The decision then is whose kingdom does one wish to enter - that of the Creator or that or Paul.
"If you don't understand weapons, you don't understand fighting. If
Fancier Quinn
--
"If you don't understand weapons, you don't understand fighting. If
John Medwin
|
Quinn: Paul says circumcision of either flesh or heart is worthless.
PROOVE IT!
Quinn: The Creator says not to start a new religion - Paul does just that.
PROOVE IT!
Quinn: The decision then is whose kingdom does one wish to enter - that of the Creator or that or Paul.
PROOVE IT Quinn: Yet you tell us we will burn in your hell for not believing that there are 2 Creators
PROOVE IT
Quinn: short you say that the forgery came first
PROOVE IT
Enough of your trash - either come up with verses or shut up! In many cases you state just the opposite of what the NT says. My friend, you know little of which you speak. Your silly baseless charges are growing old. Perhaps you think this is a forum for the Catholic church. Why not attack them on their forum? This is a forum of folks who keep Torah and the Feast Days and believe in walking in Torah. And the reason is, the NT lead us there.
Does Moshe have any of the glory of the Creator? Of course he does, the Creator gave it to him. God always shares his glory with the priests:
Exo 28:2 ASV And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, for glory and for beauty.So you are misapplying Scripture. The verse you are referring to is about idolatry. Yeshua is glorified in the same way that Moshe is glorified - faithful servants are always given esteem. Yeshua is said to be seated at the right hand of the Father - he is never said to be the Father or be on the throne of God. |
Ray
One has a right to defend themselves against false accusations. Surely
you know the damage false witnesses can do. Her statements against me
are wicked and cruel and they will remain here for as long as this
message board exists. I have shown how they are false. She has access
to everything I've posted on the web and cannot find even one web link
to validate even one of her hideous statements.
The slander has been one-way toward me. I truly feel sorry for her but
I have a defense now. It's important to me for others to see the
truth.
Ray
Fancier Quinn
Yechezkel/Ezekiel 44: 9. So said the Lord God: No alien of uncircumcised heart or of uncircumcised flesh may enter My Sanctuary, of any alien who is in the midst of the Children of Israel.
Devarim 13:6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst
1Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
John Medwin
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Rom 2:25 ASV For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.Paul never says it's worthless. He says he profits you nothing if you don't keep the commandments. Read what you quoted and see the meaning. Do you really think having the skin cut off your pecker will bring merit to a murderer? Once again, you don't understand either the NT or the Tanach. Pauls words are true and in line with the Tanach.
|
Fancier Quinn
Fancier Quinn
John Medwin
|
Deu 10:16 ASV Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.(HaShem said that!) |
Fancier Quinn
John Medwin
|
Yeah, and your point? Nobody is arguing circumcision. It is a Torah command and if you'll note, as mentioned 100 times, we are Torah keepers.
Please note your quote. Cutting the flesh alone is not enough. That is what Paul was saying. |
John Medwin
|
You might also note that Deut 10:16 was written to Jews. |
|
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
|
Fancier Quinn
Moderator
On Dec 24, 10:36 am, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are not following Torah you are following Paul's religion that he says
> is better than Torah.
ever seen a greater display than what you have presented here. Your
presumptions are wrong, your accusations are wrong, you bear false
witness against those who you do not know, placing words in their
mouths, thoughts in their minds and beliefs in their hearts that they
do not say, think or hold. When we bear false witness, we will be
held
accountable. YHVH is the only righteous judge, NOT Quinn.
I stand with you in condemnation of the twisted, distorted view of
Torah and the TaNaK that "christianity" presents. I would also stand
with you in your condemnation of the common "christian"
interpretation
of Shaul's writings. You are condemning me and others here on our
forum for believing something which we do not! Your condemnation is
of
the 'christian' interpretation of Shaul's writings. I also believe
the
common 'christian' beliefs that you so harshly criticize are wrong!
Your statement shows a complete lack of understanding at least of my
perspective on Shaul, Yahoshea and 'christianity'. You accuse all of
us of following the twisted interpretation of scripture presented by
the 'christian' churches. This is NOT what I believe. And I think it
is NOT what John Medwin believes, as he has tried to get across to
you. Though I cannot presume to speak for everyone, it is also
probably NOT what most "messianic" believers that have written on
this
forum follow.
Your harsh venomous criticism is simply misplaced. You lack
understanding of our perspective, lumping us together with the "demon
christians." You have classified us with the hosts of haSâtan
himself.
~ Moderator
Fancier Quinn
You appear to hold fast to the idea that your New christian testament is a Greek document.
The letters of your Paul were written before the gospels which were written by those not familiar with Hebraic history, Scriptures or customs.
There is a Temple birth record for Yochanan Ben Zachariah, but none for his supposed cousin born 6 months later. The Hebrew Matthew states that those of a circumcised heart say that Yochanan is Yoshi and that The Torah and the prophets spoke of Yochanan
You talk of HaShem becoming a human which HE said He was not. You say HaShem had a human son that now sits in the lap of HaShem since HaShem says there is not beside HIM, even though you Paul says this is a lie that jesus does sit beside the father and shares his glory even though HaShem said He would not share HIS glory, HaShem said HE was the only Saviour, Paul says "LIAR!! jesus is the saviour." This jesus that only existed in the allegories of Yochanan.
Paul answers the question of the source of his vision of light which he retells differently 3 times when he said Satan comes as an angel of light.
Paul paints the christian tale of Satan rather than the Hebrew understanding. That of Satan having an opposing kingdom to that of HaShem, while the Hebraic understanding is HaSatan is a faithful servant of HaShem, serving a debt collector, and prosecuting attorney.
Greetings Quinn,
On Dec 24, 10:36 am, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are not following Torah you are following Paul's religion that he says
> is better than Torah.
John Medwin
|
Well said!
-------Original Message------- |
Moderator
Greetings Quinn,
On Dec 24, 12:04 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There was no jesus/yeshua.yahushea (all feminine spellings) or any other
> spelling that you present.
Son of Nun from Bemidbar/'Numbers' 13:16? Was Mosheh incorrectly
applying a "feminine spelling" to the man who would victoriously lead
the children of Yisrael into the Promised Land?
My belief is that it is the same name, "YAH" + "Oshea" = "Yahoshea,"
as given by the messenger of YHVH in MattithYah 1:21. Just as he is
the one who leads us into the ultimate "Promised Land" of eternal life
with YHVH, conquering all before him and delivering up the final
kingdom of all the universe to his father, YHVH (1Cor 15:28) that YHVH
may be ALL IN ALL!
> You appear to hold fast to the idea that your New christian testament is a
> Greek document.
testament was primarily written in Hebrew and Aramaic, later being
translated into Greek.
> The letters of your Paul were written before the gospels which were written
> by those not familiar with Hebraic history, Scriptures or customs.
opinion and the opinion of others as well. You, and they, are welcome
to them. Opinions do not make facts, nor do they create truth simply
because someone, even a majority, believes them.
> There is a Temple birth record for Yochanan Ben Zachariah, but none for his
> supposed cousin born 6 months later.
the birth record of Mattithias or Yahudah Maccebee? What about Pontius
Pilate? Does that mean that the only people who existed are the ones
with intact birth records to which you have access? Do we have
complete documentation of all male children born 2000 years ago? Of
course not. Your statement is inflammatory and proves nothing.
> The Hebrew Matthew states that those of
> a circumcised heart say that Yochanan is Yoshi and that The Torah and the
> prophets spoke of Yochanan
> You talk of HaShem becoming a human which HE said He was not.
is invalid.
> You say HaShem
> had a human son that now sits in the lap of HaShem since HaShem says there
> is not beside HIM, even though you Paul says this is a lie that jesus does
> sit beside the father and shares his glory even though HaShem said He would
> not share HIS glory, HaShem said HE was the only Saviour, Paul says "LIAR!!
> jesus is the saviour." This jesus that only existed in the allegories of
> Yochanan.
what I (we) believe.
Yoel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the
name of YHVH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem
shall be deliverance, as YHVH hath said, and in the remnant whom YHVH
shall call.
It is only the name of YHVH that will save us. Although the messengers
of His deliverance have been many He alone is our deliverer. The man,
YAHoshea, was His son, not by coitus with a human but by YHVH's
intervention in the process of conception. Marah/Miriam/'Mary' was
only the vessel delivering the life that was created within her by
YHVH.
> Paul answers the question of the source of his vision of light which he
> retells differently 3 times when he said Satan comes as an angel of light.
with Yahoshea. The other two times are Shaul's "retelling" of it.
Would you have every vision of light that men have received be from
haSâtan? This could include many of the records in the TaNaK, also.
Moshe relates the Ten Commandments differently in Shemoth/'Exodus' and
in Debarim/'Deuteronomy', does this mean they are invalid? I think
not!
> Paul paints the christian tale of Satan rather than the Hebrew
> understanding. That of Satan having an opposing kingdom to that of HaShem,
As I have already stated, I would support your view about many of the
'christian' tales, but not this one.
If we agreed, then there would be no need for our discussion on these
points. Since we disagree on some issues, one or both of us may be
wrong. I'm glad you don't agree with me. Without that difference in
our understanding I might not have made it to the truth of YHVH's
salvation through Yahoshea!
You claim greater understanding and enlightenment than 'christians.'
Shaul also spoke of this "understanding" that a Hebrew has. First
let's look at a Torah record:
Shemoth/'Exodus' 34:30-35 And when Aaron and all the children of
Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were
afraid to come nigh him. And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all
the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked
with them. And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he
gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in
mount Sinai. And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail
on his face. But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him,
he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake
unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded. And the
children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face
shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to
speak with him.
Why did Moshe veil his face? The children of Yisrael were afraid of
him. Why were they afraid of him? Because his face reflected or
radiated the 'glory' of YHVH to which he had been exposed. They didn't
want to see. Just like they didn't want to hear when YHVH spoke with
thunder and lightening from Mt. Horeb in Shemoth 20!
2Co 3:13-16 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that
the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that
which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day
remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old
testament; which vail is done away in Mashiach. But even unto this
day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless
when it shall turn to YHVH, the vail shall be taken away.
This "blindness" that has befallen Yisrael is what opened the door for
others to be grafted in.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of
this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that
blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the
Gentiles be come in.
This "blindness" on the part of Yisrael is not a bad thing. Without it
the rest of us would be left out in the cold. So, Quinn, it is
wonderful thing that we don't see eye-to-eye! Without that I might not
be redeemed.
> while the Hebraic understanding is HaSatan is a faithful servant of HaShem,
> serving a debt collector, and prosecuting attorney.
haSâtan appears to be just a servant of YHVH but that view is very
different in the 'new' testament. This is where we see haSâtan exposed
for the evil being that he is.
Which gives the correct description and role of haSâtan? Both.
His evil serves YHVH's purpose for without it we would not know
'good.' He is also used to punish those who live contrary to YHVH's
commandments - like your description of a "debt collector." He is also
a "prosecuting attorney" and is spoken of as such:
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is
come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our Almighty, and the
power of his Mashiach: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,
which accused them before our Almighty day and night.
Sure sounds like a "prosecuting attorney" to me.
~ Moderator
John Medwin
|
It's a shame you must resort to insults instead of scholarship. Yeshua is a Scriptural name:
Neh 3:19 The Scriptures '98 (19) And next to him Ezer son of Yeshua, the ruler of Mitspah, repaired another section before the going up to the armoury at the corner. It's a shame that you spew so, as I agree with much of what you say - though you do not seem to hear too well. 3 times the Tanach says that HaShem is not a man and that He changes not. Nowhere does the NT say that HaShem became a man or became a human sacrifice. That is all assumed theology handed down by the Roman Church. Nowhere does the NT say that HaShem had a human son, except of course Adam and Solomon (and now Yeshua). So take that for what you will. HaShem glorifies whom He chooses to glorify - that is His choosing, not yours. |
1Ti 2:5 KJV
For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Paul always claims one true God AND the Messiah. He never confuses the 2 as you do (and most Christians do).Fancier Quinn
intervention in the process of conception. Marah/Miriam/'Mary' was
only the vessel delivering the life that was created within her by
YHVH.
Psalms 127:3 Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward.
Which of course is not the Hebraic understanding of the verse.
But as so many have told me - Jews have no understanding of their Scriptures - it takes a spirit-filled christian to interpret the Hebrew Scriptures correctly. For only babbling in gibberish christians have the mind of god and his jesus that no Jews will ever have.
While the Messianic/Christian has no idea that in Hebrew - line upon line, precept upon precept - is baby talk mono-syllables the equivalent of goo-goo, ga ga, ba !
For Messianics are not Jews, they are deluded Christians believing they stand in both worlds , when in fact they do not stand, at all, they have fallen for deception
she would easily see that Christianity and Judaism are fully incompatible
religions at their most fundamental levels.
A Jew is a Jew and a Christian is a Christian
There have been spiritually hungry Jews who have become Christians. When they
lacked education in Torah they did not study, but instead, put their focus into Christian
bible. And usually, such a person will normally call himself or herself a Christian.
It is important to note that the founder of Jews for Jesus was born as a Jew who
converted to Christianity. He became a Baptist minister and called himself a Christian. It
was only later on, after he created this recent Christian sect, that it became popular to call
oneself a Jew while worshiping as a Christian.
If the Pope's maternal great-great-grandmother was a Jew (with an unbroken
matriarchal line), legalistically he would be called Jewish, but the reality is that his
spiritual tradition and actions are solely Christian in nature. A Torah-Jew would not enter
the Church of the Pope, saying "Well, the Pope's Jewish, so it's okay!" (Oh, and in case
you were wondering, this is only an example. As far as I know, the Pope's mother wasn't
Jewish!)
Such a leader is a Christian. The founder of Jews for Jesus was a Christian. And
the members of Messianic "Jewish" or Christian-sects-with-Jewish-Symbolism (hereafter known as CSWJS) CSWJS Churches (that are incorrectly labeled as
"temples") are Christians. Christians fund their churches. And yet, CSWJS members
intentionally blur the distinction in order to entice and deceive the uneducated and
spiritually hungry Jew.
Let's get clear on at least one thing: Judaism and Christianity are incompatible
religions, even though they both participating in devotional and spiritual expression. We
need to remember the saying of the most successful Christian missionary. Paul, told his
followers that he needed to discard his Jewish identity in order to follow Jesus
(Philippians 3:8). So too must any Jew who participates in the way of Paul. There is no
valid relationship between Judaism and Christianity. (exerpt from Drashi)
--
"If you don't understand weapons, you don't understand fighting. If
you don't understand fighting you don't understand war. If you don't
John Medwin
|
Quinn: "Paul, told his followers that he needed to discard his Jewish identity in order to follow Jesus" Act 21:20-24 ASV And they, when they heard it, glorified God; and they said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of them that have believed; and they are all zealous for the law: (21) and they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs. (22) What is it therefore? They will certainly hear that thou art come. (23) Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men that have a vow on them; (24) these take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges for them, that they may shave their heads: and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law. Act 28:17 ASV And it came to pass, that after three days he called together those that were the chief of the Jews: and when they were come together, he said unto them, I, brethren, though I had done nothing against the people, or the customs of our fathers, yet was delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans:
Rom 3:31 ASV Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.
1Co 11:1 MRC Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Messiah.Quinn, I can certainly understand your confusion. You are repeating what we have been hearing in church for ages. But obviously, you are as mistaken as the church. Paul not only walked in Torah and the customs of the Jews and taught others to do the same. But there is a return taking place. Slowly the Roman teachings are falling by the wayside. I would think this should encourage you - that perhaps we may be living at the time when the fullness of the gentiles takes place. I know there are rabbis in Israel who are rejoicing to see this day. So this bitterness of yours towards us is hard for me to understand. Kind of reminds me of the old preachers on the street corners telling all the sinners how they are going straight to hell. You may have more in common with Christians than you realize. -------Original Message-------
|
LeeJosephO
>> Joseph,
>>
>> One has a right to defend themselves against false accusations.
Either way, however, The Messiah remained silent in the face of His
accusers.
>> Surely you know the damage false witnesses can do.
>> It's important to me for others to see the truth.
None of this is about you, me or any other mere mortal.
LeeJosephO
>> Paul says circumcision of either flesh or heart is worthless.
would be crucial to understanding them anyway.
Personally, and with one being challenging and belated, I have
overseen the physical circumcision of each of my still-young grandsons
and I know the value of those circumcisions.
Moderator
On Dec 24, 4:08 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> YHVH's intervention in the process of conception. Marah/Miriam/'Mary' was
> only the vessel delivering the life that was created within her by YHVH.
>
> Then HaShem is not involved in every human conception, then making this line
> in the Tehillim a lie!
> Psalms 127:3 Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of
> the womb [is his] reward.
and baseless assumptions? I find your "tunnel vision" and tainted
"logic" boorish!
The premise of your statement is that if YHVH was involved in one
process of conception then he cannot be involved in every conception.
Huh? Who said that? Not me.
There is, however, a completely different level of involvement between
Tehillim 127:3 and Luke 1:31. For example, if I was an obstetrician
involved in every delivery of my patients' children, does that mean
that I have fathered them all? Of course not. The difference is my
level of participation.
> Which of course is not the Hebraic understanding of the verse.
YHVH is involved in every conception or was the father of Yahoshea.
Hebraic "understanding" alters neither truth nor historical events.
> But as so many have told me - Jews have no understanding of their Scriptures
> - it takes a spirit-filled christian to interpret the Hebrew Scriptures
> correctly. For only babbling in gibberish christians have the mind of god
> and his jesus that no Jews will ever have.
gibberish."
With "christian" friends like that, who needs enemies? If I were you,
I would hang out with a different crowd. To my knowledge, no one on
this forum has ever said anything like that so do not lump us in with
those 'cristians.'
Some read the Talmud and say that a "Jew" may kill a "gentile" without
condemnation or punishment. Does that make it so? Are all "Jews"
murderers of "gentiles"?
> While the Messianic/Christian has no idea that in Hebrew - line upon line,
> precept upon precept - is baby talk mono-syllables the equivalent of
> goo-goo, ga ga, ba !
> For Messianics are not Jews, they are deluded Christians believing they
> stand in both worlds, when in fact they do not stand, at all, they have
> fallen for deception
"Poor stupid deluded and deceived Messianic Jews."
> A Jew is a Jew and a Christian is a Christian
> There have been spiritually hungry Jews who have become Christians. When
> they lacked education in Torah they did not study, but instead, put their focus
> into Christian bible. And usually, such a person will normally call himself or
> herself a Christian.
Messianic Jews."
> the members of Messianic "Jewish" or Christian-sects-with-Jewish-Symbolism
> (hereafter known as CSWJS) CSWJS Churches (that are incorrectly labeled as
> "temples") are Christians. Christians fund their churches. And yet, CSWJS
> members intentionally blur the distinction in order to entice and deceive the
> uneducated and spiritually hungry Jew.
deceptive Messianic Jews."
> Let's get clear on at least one thing: Judaism and Christianity are incompatible
> religions, even though they both participating in devotional and spiritual
> expression. We need to remember the saying of the most successful
> Christian missionary. Paul, told his followers that he needed to
> discard his Jewish identity in order to follow Jesus (Philippians 3:8).
> So too must any Jew who participates in the way of Paul. There is no
> valid relationship between Judaism and Christianity. (exerpt from Drashi)
world-view, are simply wrong.
I will address this in my next post.
~ Moderator
NarrowGateGroup
Greetings Quinn,
On Dec 24, 4:08 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We need to remember the saying of the most successful Christian missionary.
> Paul, told his followers that he needed to discard his Jewish identity in
> order to follow Jesus (Philippians 3:8). So too must any Jew who
> participates in the way of Paul. There is no valid relationship between
> Judaism and Christianity. (exerpt from Drashi)
Overwhelming scriptural evidence from the book of Acts is presented below and spans 25 years of the very beginning of the first century ‘church.’ Most of it is Shaul’s own words and deeds, but it all weighs in on the side of Torah still being very much alive and well.
This was written in response to a person who said that Torah was “dead, done away, voided, faulty,” etc. just as you would claim we all believe. Not so. I have provided 37 verses from 9 different sections of Acts that clearly state Shaul’s and others continuous adherence to Torah. “Christianity” denies the validity of these sections and explains them away. They are wrong.
SECTION 1 – False witnesses say Stephan blasphemed the law (Torah):
Act 6:11-14 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him (Stephan) speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God. And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council, And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law (Torah): For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
If the “suborned men” were “false witnesses” and were lying (“false witness” = liar), then Stephan did NOT do that of which they accused him, else they weren’t “false!” Thus he did not “speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against ‘God’,” or “against the ‘holy place’ and the law,” or to “change the customs which Moses delivered.”
If he did NOT “speak blasphemous words against the law (Torah),” then what did he speak about the law? Were the “false witnesses” really “true witnesses”? Did Stephan say “blasphemous words against the law” or not?
SECTION 2 – Shaul makes a Nazir vow from “obsolete” Torah:
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law (Torah).
The men spoken of in this verse had made a Nazir vow according to Torah as given in Bemidbar/‘Numbers’ 6:2-21. To show that he “walked orderly and kept the law,” Shaul then joined with them and fulfilled the days of their (now also his) vow with these four men according to the “Old Testament” law - Torah:
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Why?
Was he, as you have said, “binding what should not be bound”? Was he disobedient to Yahweh by observing this “obsolete” custom from the “useless” and “void” law?
SECTION 3 – Shaul finally gets it – and from a “devout man according to the law (Torah)”:
Act 22:10-13 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law (Torah), having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14-16 And he said, The [Almighty] of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
This is Shaul relating what happened to him as recorded in Acts 9:10-19. But what’s wrong with this picture?
Here we have Ananias, a “devout man according to the (‘faulty, obsolete, abolished, voided’) law (Torah)” who is also a believer… and not just any ordinary garden-variety believer, but the one who the ‘Lord’ personally speaks to and chooses to deliver the most powerful prophetic message about Shaul to him in person.
How could he be such a “devout” man of the law and also a believer? Was Ananias also “binding what should not be bound”? Did he not yet understand that the law was “obsolete”?
SECTION 4 – Shaul is arrested and uses Torah to condemn his captors:
Act 23:2-5 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. Then said Paul unto him, [Yahweh] shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the (now “abolished”) law? And they that stood by said, Revilest thou [Yahweh]'s high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written (in the now “obsolete” Torah – Ex. 22:28), Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
Was he just using the “obsolete” law to serve his selfish purposes… to avoid being beaten? Why would he even bring it up if he had been preaching that it is “abolished”?
SECTION 5 – Shaul attends the Feast of Weeks/‘Pentecost’ to worship Yahweh as given in Torah:
Act 24:11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem (at ‘Pentecost’) for to worship.
Why would Shaul go to Yerushalayim/‘Jerusalem’ for the “abolished” Chag HaShavuot – the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) to worship Yahweh, thereby following an “obsolete” “Old Testament” commandment of Mosheh/‘Moses’?
This commandment from Shemoth/‘Exodus’ 34:23 and Debarim/‘Deuteronomy’ 16:16 is for all males to appear before Yahweh at Yerushalayim for the Feast of Weeks as defined in Wayyiqra/ ‘Leviticus’ 23:21.
Why? Did he just want to do some preaching to the “Jews” because he knew they would be gathered there? No, because then he could not have said what he did in the very next verses:
Act 24:12-14 And they (the ‘Jews’) neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the [Almighty] of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Not only is Shaul “believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets,” but he is DOING all things which are written in the law and in the prophets!
SECTION 6 – Shaul defends his actions and is without offence or guilt:
Act 24:17-21 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings. Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified (according to a Nazir vow from the law of Mosheh) in the temple (see the record in Acts 21:26 above), neither with multitude, nor with tumult. Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me. Or else let these same here say, if they have found any evil doing in me, while I stood before the council, Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.
Shaul says that ONLY for ONE thing is he being accused for any wrong doing, “Touching the resurrection of the dead,” Not for speaking against the Law, Mosheh, the Temple or anything else! Was he lying?
By this time he had already written Romans, Corinthians 1 & 2, Galatians, and Thessalonians 1 & 2.
SECTION 7 – Shaul defends himself again against false accusations:
Act 25:7-10 And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all. But Festus, willing to do the Jews a pleasure, answered Paul, and said, Wilt thou go up to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these things before me? Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
Why could they not prove that he had done anything wrong? Because he hadn’t! He hadn’t spoken out against the “law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar!” If he had, they could have proven it and had him condemned!
SECTION 8 – Shaul defends himself once more against false accusations:
Act 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Act 28:18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
Hmm… this is only 13 verses away from the end of the book of Acts. Where do we see that Shaul spoke even one word or did ANYTHING at all against the law of Mosheh? If he had, he would have been a liar and could have been found guilty of accusations which the ‘Jews’ leveled against him and could have been put to death.
He flatly and completely denied all their charges.
By this time, Shaul had already written Romans, Corinthians 1 & 2, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians 1 & 2, and Philemon. If there was something – ANYTHING - they could have used against him, certainly it would have been common public knowledge and they would have brought it up!
Through every trial and examination by the ‘Jewish’ false accusers and Roman authorities, he successfully denies and refutes their “lawless” charges with every step all the way to Rome!
SECTION 9 – Shaul uses Torah and the Prophets to win believers:
Act 28:23,24 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Why, right up to the end of his life, is Shaul still reasoning out of the “law of Moses and out of the prophets” – ALL of which is “OLD” TESTAMENT – TORAH!?
Didn’t he get the memo? This is 30 years after the death and resurrection of Yahoshea!
You will note that there is NO MENTION of ANYTHING from the “New” Testament. How can that be? How can he use the “obsolete, void, and faulty” “Old” Testament scriptures to convert these people to believers?
Every ‘Pauline’ ‘Church’ Epistle has already been written. Why didn’t he say, “Here, just read these letters (epistles) I wrote, they’ll explain everything…”?
~ Moderator
Fancier Quinn
The Creator King of the Universe prevented Paul from fulling the Nazarite vow, to preserve his life a while longer, giving Paul opportunity to repent.
Paul's letters were written before any of the gospels.
John Medwin
|
Quinn: I was at the local synagogue recently along with a woman who loves Israel, but spent all her life in the church. She was on the back row and during some of the singing raised her hands in the air, which to her meant she was having a great time. When I spoke to the rabbi after that, he was offended. He resented the fact that a Christian would bring their ways into their house. I had to agree - it was out of line. There is such a thing as proper protocol.
In the same way, for me to go on an Orthodox Judaism site and blast the Talmud, would make me out of line, even if I was a scholar of the Talmud. There's just something about going into somebody else's house and trying to smash things up. It's just not good form.
Now as to forums like this I think the same protocol applies. Messianics on the whole are searching for the truth and love the Torah and love to study. After all, we are discovering just how wrong we've had it all those years in the church. And, no doubt, we'll be further down the road years from now, which means, there's still lots of stuff we have wrong. And forums such as this one provide such a place to study and hear from those we disagree with. And because of that, the Moderator has been more than gracious to you. I think everyone on this post is walking in the Torah today, and only got here because at some point we studied some "radical" things or studied some things that years ago we would have thought was heresy. So there is much to be gained by studying with those you disagree with.
But lady, I'm telling you, you're out of line, even for a forum like this. You don't come with a heart that I think is appreciated. You seem to lash out in hatred and it seems like you like the idea of smashing things up. It's a shame, because I suspect you have much to bring to the table. But would you do the same thing in a yeshiva? I think not. I think the rabbis would have thrown you out a long time ago. Like Paul or not, he's got it right: knowledge puffs up, love builds up. I urge you to temper your words, spice it up with some words of love, and share in a way that is not trying to smash everything in sight. I'm not sure you're up to the task, though.
If you think Paul was all wrong, then bring up a subject, and we'll study it - one study at a time - line upon line. Build up, don't tear up.
Shalom
-------Original Message-------
|
Moderator
Both your example and your measured response are appropriate and
appreciated. It is so easy for us to become agitated and blow up. It
takes a cool and level head to respond with logic, reason and dignity.
Thank you.
~ Moderator
> Greetings Quinn,
> On Dec 24, 4:08 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com > wrote:
> > We need to remember the saying of the most successful Christian missionary
>
> > order to follow Jesus (Philippians 3:8). So too must any Jew who
> > participates in the way of Paul. There is no valid relationship between
> > Judaism and Christianity. (exerpt from Drashi)
> Overwhelming scriptural evidence from the book of Acts is presented below
> and spans 25 years of the very beginning of the first century 'church.' Most
> of it is Shaul's own words and deeds, but it all weighs in on the side of
> Torah still being very much alive and well.
> This was written in response to a person who said that Torah was "dead, done
> away, voided, faulty," etc. just as you would claim we all believe. Not so.
> I have provided 37 verses from 9 different sections of Acts that clearly
> state Shaul's and others continuous adherence to Torah. "Christianity"
> denies the validity of these sections and explains them away. They are wrong
>
> speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God. And they stirred up
> the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught
> him, and brought him to the council, And set up false witnesses, which said,
> This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and
> the law (Torah): For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth
> shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered
> us.
> If the "suborned men" were "false witnesses" and were lying ("false witness"
> = liar), then Stephan did NOT do that of which they accused him, else they
> weren't "false!" Thus he did not "speak blasphemous words against Moses, and
> against 'God'," or "against the 'holy place' and the law," or to "change the
> customs which Moses delivered."
> If he did NOT "speak blasphemous words against the law (Torah)," then what
> did he speak about the law? Were the "false witnesses" really "true
> witnesses"? Did Stephan say "blasphemous words against the law" or not?
>
> them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things,
> whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou
> thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law (Torah).
> The men spoken of in this verse had made a Nazir vow according to Torah as
> given in Bemidbar/'Numbers' 6:2-21. To show that he "walked orderly and kept
> the law," Shaul then joined with them and fulfilled the days of their (now
> also his) vow with these four men according to the "Old Testament" law -
> Torah:
> Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with
> them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of
> purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them
>
> Was he, as you have said, "binding what should not be bound"? Was he
> disobedient to Yahweh by observing this "obsolete" custom from the "useless"
> and "void" law?
>
> Act 22:10-13 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me,
> Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things
> which are appointed for thee to do. And when I could not see for the glory
> of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into
> Damascus. And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law (Torah), having
> a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Came unto me, and stood,
> and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I
> looked up upon him.
> Act 22:14-16 And he said, The [Almighty] of our fathers hath chosen thee,
> that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear
> the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what
> thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,
> and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
> This is Shaul relating what happened to him as recorded in Acts 9:10-19. But
> what's wrong with this picture?
> Here we have Ananias, a "devout man according to the ('faulty, obsolete,
> speaks to and chooses to deliver the most powerful prophetic message about
> Shaul to him in person.
> How could he be such a "devout" man of the law and also a believer? Was
> Ananias also "binding what should not be bound"? Did he not yet understand
> that the law was "obsolete"?
>
> smite him on the mouth. Then said Paul unto him, [Yahweh] shall smite thee,
> thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest
> me to be smitten contrary to the (now "abolished") law? And they that stood
> by said, Revilest thou [Yahweh]'s high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not,
> brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written (in the now
> people.
> Was he just using the "obsolete" law to serve his selfish purposes... to avoid
> is "abolished"?
>
> Act 24:11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but
> twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem (at 'Pentecost') for to worship.
> Why would Shaul go to Yerushalayim/'Jerusalem' for the "abolished" Chag
>
> This commandment from Shemoth/'Exodus' 34:23 and Debarim/'Deuteronomy' 16:16
> is for all males to appear before Yahweh at Yerushalayim for the Feast of
> Weeks as defined in Wayyiqra/ 'Leviticus' 23:21.
>
> Why? Did he just want to do some preaching to the "Jews" because he knew
> they would be gathered there? No, because then he could not have said what
> he did in the very next verses:
> Act 24:12-14 And they (the 'Jews') neither found me in the temple disputing
> with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor
> in the city: Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
> But this I confess unto thee, that
>
>
> read more >>- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ray
I'm learning from you and Moderator. I'm a bit slow and it will take a
bit for me to digest all of this, but I'm drawn to what you two are
writing. I'll be working through this for a while until hopefully I'll
understand better.
I truly appreciate the tone and quality of your responses.
Ray
> Greetings Quinn,
> On Dec 24, 4:08 pm, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com > wrote:
> > We need to remember the saying of the most successful Christian missionary
>
> > order to follow Jesus (Philippians 3:8). So too must any Jew who
> > participates in the way of Paul. There is no valid relationship between
> > Judaism and Christianity. (exerpt from Drashi)
> Overwhelming scriptural evidence from the book of Acts is presented below
> and spans 25 years of the very beginning of the first century 'church.' Most
> of it is Shaul's own words and deeds, but it all weighs in on the side of
> Torah still being very much alive and well.
> This was written in response to a person who said that Torah was "dead, done
> away, voided, faulty," etc. just as you would claim we all believe. Not so.
> I have provided 37 verses from 9 different sections of Acts that clearly
> state Shaul's and others continuous adherence to Torah. "Christianity"
> denies the validity of these sections and explains them away. They are wrong
>
> speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God. And they stirred up
> the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught
> him, and brought him to the council, And set up false witnesses, which said,
> This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and
> the law (Torah): For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth
> shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered
> us.
> If the "suborned men" were "false witnesses" and were lying ("false witness"
> = liar), then Stephan did NOT do that of which they accused him, else they
> weren't "false!" Thus he did not "speak blasphemous words against Moses, and
> against 'God'," or "against the 'holy place' and the law," or to "change the
> customs which Moses delivered."
> If he did NOT "speak blasphemous words against the law (Torah)," then what
> did he speak about the law? Were the "false witnesses" really "true
> witnesses"? Did Stephan say "blasphemous words against the law" or not?
>
> them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things,
> whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou
> thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law (Torah).
> The men spoken of in this verse had made a Nazir vow according to Torah as
> given in Bemidbar/'Numbers' 6:2-21. To show that he "walked orderly and kept
> the law," Shaul then joined with them and fulfilled the days of their (now
> also his) vow with these four men according to the "Old Testament" law -
> Torah:
> Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with
> them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of
> purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them
>
> Was he, as you have said, "binding what should not be bound"? Was he
> disobedient to Yahweh by observing this "obsolete" custom from the "useless"
> and "void" law?
>
> Act 22:10-13 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me,
> Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things
> which are appointed for thee to do. And when I could not see for the glory
> of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into
> Damascus. And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law (Torah), having
> a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Came unto me, and stood,
> and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I
> looked up upon him.
> Act 22:14-16 And he said, The [Almighty] of our fathers hath chosen thee,
> that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear
> the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what
> thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,
> and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
> This is Shaul relating what happened to him as recorded in Acts 9:10-19. But
> what's wrong with this picture?
> Here we have Ananias, a "devout man according to the ('faulty, obsolete,
> speaks to and chooses to deliver the most powerful prophetic message about
> Shaul to him in person.
> How could he be such a "devout" man of the law and also a believer? Was
> Ananias also "binding what should not be bound"? Did he not yet understand
> that the law was "obsolete"?
>
> smite him on the mouth. Then said Paul unto him, [Yahweh] shall smite thee,
> thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest
> me to be smitten contrary to the (now "abolished") law? And they that stood
> by said, Revilest thou [Yahweh]'s high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not,
> brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written (in the now
> people.
> Was he just using the "obsolete" law to serve his selfish purposes... to avoid
> is "abolished"?
>
> Act 24:11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but
> twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem (at 'Pentecost') for to worship.
> Why would Shaul go to Yerushalayim/'Jerusalem' for the "abolished" Chag
>
> This commandment from Shemoth/'Exodus' 34:23 and Debarim/'Deuteronomy' 16:16
> is for all males to appear before Yahweh at Yerushalayim for the Feast of
> Weeks as defined in Wayyiqra/ 'Leviticus' 23:21.
>
> Why? Did he just want to do some preaching to the "Jews" because he knew
> they would be gathered there? No, because then he could not have said what
> he did in the very next verses:
> Act 24:12-14 And they (the 'Jews') neither found me in the temple disputing
> with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor
> in the city: Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
> But this I confess unto thee, that
>
LeeJosephO
>> The truth is free, a gift of HaShem, no one person has all the truth, each of us has been given truth in part, we are to each bring our part to the table and place our parts together.
On Dec 24, 1:34 am, "Fancier Quinn" <fancierqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Islam ... wishes to kill our body and christians desire to kill the soul of the Jew.
Somewhere here there is common ground, and I would like to find it.
Several years ago, it was a Jew that helped me come to see and abandon
"replacement theology", and nearly everything I have since learned
about right fellowship and worship - Torah - has first been shown to
me by one or another of YHWH's chosen witnesses ... and how else could
that have happened?!
In spite of anything, Quinn, I thank you for being here.