Stocking a new 10 gallon tank
PM
We got our 6 year old son a 10 gal. tank for Christmas. On the advice
of local pet stores we started with 1 dwarf gourami, 3 rosy barbs, and
a female beta, but that experiement blew up quickly (barbs were at
each other constantly and the gourami wouldn't leave the betta alone).
Fortunately, we were able to return the fish to the store and start
over from scratch. We really would like to create a nice and healthy
environment for our fish.
Since then, we have been doing many, many hours of research. We read
about, and have completed fishless cycling. The water is ready to
go. That was the easy part. Unfortunately, the more we read, the
more it seems that stocking a 10 gal. tank is nearly impossible. Fish
that are small enough tend to be schooling fish and must have 5 or
more, which pushes the limits of our tank -- especially if we add a
scavenger fish to help keep the tank clean. And the scavenger fish
(corys) apparently are schooling fish too! So, there's definitely not
enough room for everyone in our 10 gal. tank. Also, I've read that a
tank should have an algae eater too. You see the problem.
Since getting a larger tank isn't an option for now, I would really
appreciate any feedback or recommendations on our stocking plan before
we implement it. I know the following combos are not ideal, but I'm
wondering if they're the best that can be achieved with our less than
ideal tank size. They are:
5 glo-lite tetra
or
3 male fancy guppies
or
3 female bettas
Do we absolutely need a scavenger and/or algae eater for the tank?
Any suggestions for some that would work with one of the above
combinations? We have gravel in our tank and some plastic plants if
that makes any difference (which I'm sure it does). Also, if you have
a suggestion about another completely different combination, we like
to know that as well. We just want happy fish (and a happy 6 year
old).
Thanks so much.
PM
NetMax
experience, it really is much easier to stock a small tank than would
first appear.
In regards to your first set up, yes, mixing Bettas with their cousins
(Anabantidae family) is usually a bad combination. With enough plant
life, I think the Rosies might have been ok, but there are smaller and
more peaceful shoaling fish which will work better.
You certainly do not need a scavenger or an algae eater, and they are
less practical as tanks get smaller. It's very useful that you
indicated the age of your son as that influences choices a lot. Also,
will he be feeding the fish, or can he be relied on to not overfeed?
Assuming you share the interest for the aquarium and your son only
feeds while being supervised, lets start with some ideas.
Bettas, while you results were poor are sometimes good small tank fish
as they are not extremely mobile. Some caution has to be given to
their individual personalities and choice of tank-mates.
Shrimp, Snails and Dwarf African Frogs are all small tank critters
which fascinate children. An Apple snail will be the size of his
fist, and have many interesting habits. The frogs are a bit of a
nuisance to feed sometimes, but may be worth it as they are real kid-
pleasers. Shrimps stay small and if there are no predators, may
multiply in the tank. If the child can keep his face very close to
the tank, these are comical to watch (and there are several types of
shrimp available).
As for a scavenger or bottom-feeder - snails, shrimp and frogs are all
bottom-feeders, so problem solved :o).
A very animated cartoon-like and harmless fish is the kuhli loach.
They also like to be in groups, but are suitable for small tanks.
They don't like bright lights, which your 10g probably does not have.
Provide suitable shelter (ornament) which your son can peek into, to
see the loaches stacked up on each other.
Some boys are fascinated by crayfish and crabs, though these mostly
eliminate having other critters in the tank. Remember, most small
critters are not terribly long-lived so everything is temporary, and
you can change set-ups later. However the patience level of a child
can be even shorter than the life-span of these critters, so choose
carefully.
In regards to fish, smaller tanks lend themselves to smaller shoaling
types (who find comfort in being close together). Also keeping only
one species in the mid and upper regions will usually make a more
tranquil setting, though kids may not want too much 'tranquility' ;~)
Depending on your water conditions, certain fish may do better than
others. Small fish are more suceptible to water conditions which are
to the other extreme from what they are used to. For soft water,
Keyhole cichlids and Bolivian Rams are more animated than tetras, and
will keep to the mid and bottom regions of the tank. Hard water
alternates also exist. Platys are a small livebearer which are
undemanding, self-replicating, colourful and educational (stock with 1
male and 2 or 3 females), but there will soon be a need for an
explanation regarding where most of the babies go (eaten).
If the tank is not heated, the recommendations change. If the tank is
not filtered, again, recommendations change. I hope there are some
ideas in there for you and we can make more suggestions when you give
us some feedback.
regards
nm (NetMax)
Altum
soft? What are your favorite fish? Your list of ideas is only about
half of what you can eventually put in the tank. You can have about
10-15 small fish like glo-lights, or a half dozen 2" fish in a 10
gallon tank.
As NetMax mentioned, scavengers are helpful but not strictly
necessary. There are some super-cute small cories like C. pygmaeus,
or panda cories that stay under about 2" so you could have a trio of
those.
A sample soft water tank would be:
5 glo-lights, neons, white clouds, or other small fish
1 female betta or dwarf gourami
3 panda cories
Or for harder water:
7 male guppies (they're all tail)
3 cories
You could put a couple more fish and substitute a snails or shrimp for
the cories if you like. As NetMax metioned, platies are great for 10
gallon tanks. I have fond memories of watching my dad's cardinal
tetras, black mollies, and sunset platies when I was about five years
old.
With the platies
3-4 platies
3 small cories or 5 glo-lights or neons
2 shrimp or a snail
HTH,
Altum
Shannon Mulberry
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
FredH
Hi PM,
We are beginner fish-keeping household and have had a 10 gallon tank
for a year now with the following fish:
3 black neon tetras
3 glowlight tetras
4 harlequin rasboras
Thus, ten fish and the biological filter is working excellently.
Never any ammonia buildup or nitrite.
I guess they engage in a bit of inter-specific schooling.
The nitrates tend to climb but water changes help with that (no live
plants at the present time).
They have grown larger and seem very happy. I mix up flake food with
some "cyclo-peeze"/micro-crab granules (the
stuff made I believe from some small crustaceans), the latter
apparently helping them develop really nice vibrant color.
We have lost 3 otocinclus and 3 neons that we got at the start, but
the others seem very hardy.
Good luck!
FredH
Skip
the Mrs that fish are not a pain.)
We used to have 3 danio and 3 tetras and had no problems whatsoever.
Well, the tetras chewed the fins off of a couple danios, but it wasn't
a big deal. They lived happily and healthily with just a couple plants
and a filter. I would also second the motion on the shrimp. They are
great to watch, for adults and kids. Amano and Blueberry are the two
I have tried, and they do great. They eat the old food and detritus,
and do enjoy cleaning algae off of leaves and what not. The won't
take it off the glass, but a magnetic glass cleaner always works
wonders, and that's what my kids like about the tank more than
anything.
I ritualistically stay away from cichlids, but that is just me. They
always seem to cause one problem or another, but they do look great
when they aren't raising cain.
Good luck with it.
Tynk
On Mar 8, 8:51?am, Shannon Mulberry <feather2night...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
(Snipped)
> Have a 7 year old son that has a 12g eclipse for a night light,
>
> - Show quoted text -
I wanted to comment on the fact that you use the 12g Eclipse as a
nightlight for your son.
Unless you block out the daylight from getting to the tank (even if
the light is off during the day) the fish will suffer ill affects.
Fish need a day / night schedule just as we humans do. However, unlike
a fish, we can sleep during the daylight hours.
In a fish's mind, light = time to look for food. They do not sleep
during hours of light. Meaning that if you keep the tank light all
night, and the tank gets light during the day (be it from a window,
tank light, or light in the room) the fish aren't sleeping.
They need to do so, just as humans do.
Now if you are leaving the light on day and night you are going to
overheat the housing for the light's power.
I foud this out out the hard way. The longer hours the light is on,
the more of a chance that housing will split. If it gets split,
moisture enters, and then you can have a very bad shock.
My daughter's 3g Eclipse did this very thing. She kept turning the
light on when she would get up in the night to go potty.
I had to get her a small nightlight that didn't affect the fish (so
that the tank wouldn't catch the light and keep them up).
Recently, I got her that Glade Light Show. It's an airfreshner and
mulitcolor-changing light. It's the coolest thing. You don't have to
use the oil airfreshner if you don't want it. It has different
settings for the lights too. Now she uses it as her night light (away
from the tank).
Check it out for your son. I bet he'd love it. Your fish will be
thanking you for the goodnight's sleep too. = )
Shannon Mulberry
On Mar 8, 8:51?am, Shannon Mulberry
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
Mellie
tetra's, 3 panda cory's (most entertaining fish ever), 1 oto (was 2
until last weekend) and some (around 5) ghost shrimp. I had a dwarf
gourami until last weekend when we lost her to some strange episode.
I wouldn't get one again as it is quite a big fish. They are peaceful
and beautiful but lots of fish owners are having problems with them 6
months down the line. So sad. I'm thinking of adding 2 more neons
back into the tank and another oto. The tank has been preened and
looks quite empty at the moment.
My 5g has my male betta and 4 (was 5) white clouds. This tanks seems
quite peaceful and is starting to look good now the plants are taking
off.
My new 10g is planted and currently has one lone bumblebee goby. I was
already to add 3 dwarf puffers but am now reconsidering as it means I
will only have 4 fish in the tank. I was reading Altums post about
having lots of smaller fish and am thinking along the lines of
platy's. Would really love a colourful tank.
HTH
Mellie
On Mar 8, 4:54 pm, Shannon Mulberry <feather2night...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Actually have had this tank as a night light for three years now with no ill effects, his room is extremely dark during the day, It just is the odd tank out so to speak it is the only tank in the entire house on that schedule, then every other month borrow some of his danios to breed which has been successful the few times I tried spawning them. When he gets up in the morning he turns their light which it's still quite dark, the way our house sits even too put clothes away in the middle of the day you have to turn the light on its that dark in there.
>
> Personally I truly don't like his eclipse tank, won't purchase another one but its his tank. If it all works out he keeps trying to talk me into a turtle if that be the case his fish will be on a normal schedule with all the others around here.
>
> Shannon
>
> ---------------------------------
denizen
On Mar 7, 8:19 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> stocking a 10 gal. tank
Did anyone mention white cloud mountain fish yet? They were once known
as "the poor man's neon tetra" and are beautiful, small and quite
hardy. They have the reputation of not eating their young, which hatch
from eggs. If you had only whiteclouds plus some plants' you might get
baby white clouds :o). They bred in my aquariums.
If you go with these fish I'd recommend a small school - just 5 or 6
white clouds.
d.
Melissa Phillips
turtles again, if I do just a small musk or mud turtle. I like
tortoises much better.
PM
Hi all,
Thank you so much for all your responses. The info was very helpful
and interesting. I also appreciated most everyone taking my son's
point of view into consideration. Frankly though, at this point, he'd
be happy with just about any fish in the tank! The fishless cycling
took many weeks. He's been amazingly patient and understanding (for a
six year old), but he's getting anxious for Mom to be done with the
research!
Here's the additional information some requested:
Equipment: 50 watt heater, aqua-clear 20 filter, 15 watt fluorescent
light, natural stone gravel, and two plastic plants (one with silk
leaves and plastic stems, the other all is plastic). Our tank also
has a cover.
Location: Small room with one window, but the tank is on a wall
without a window. The room has an overhead light. It's not overly
bright.
Water: We use filtered tap water. Our water filter (not the one in
the tank) removes the chlorine so we don't use any chemicals in the
water. We've been using Marbel testing strips that change color to
indicate the range of each water component. Here's the reading of a
strip: Hardness -- between 50 and 120ppm, Alkalinity/Buffering
Capacity -- 0, pH--6.4
I like the idea of shrimp, snails, or frogs to use a the scavengers.
They would be fun and not take up too much realestate. One of the
main guidelines I am using for tank selection is 1inch per gallon. I
read that somewhere. I also read that my 10 gal. tank is probably not
really 10 gal. once all the stuff is added. Also, most manufacturers
round up when labelling the tank. So I probably have only 8-9 gallons
to play with.
Another reason I want to go with a conservative stocking scenario is
I'm worried that if we go on vacation for 7 to 10 days, the nitrate
levels will go off the charts. (I can find someone to feed the fish,
but not to do water changes.) I'm assuming we need to do weekly water
changes. Is that right?
The guppies are supposed to grow to about 2in. so I figure I can get
3, which would account for 6 gal., and then I could toss in a couple
of small scavengers (like the suggested snails or shrimp), which would
take up the rest of the gallons. I read that guppies should be kept
in a 20 gallon tank minimum, but I'm starting to give up on satisfying
all criteria. I just don't think it's possible with a 10 gallon
tank. I've read that guppies are hardy; plus I think my son will like
all the bright colors.
The glo-lite tetras reach a max. of 1.5 in. so I figure I could get
away with 5. I've read these are hardy fish too.
I'm abandoning the idea of the female bettas because I read they are
disease prone. I want easy, hardy fish.
I appreciate the info on the Gouramis because I had been strongly
considering them. The one we had originally was so beautiful and we
liked the way he moved. But, they get up to 3 in., like company (yet
are territorial), and require a minimum of 15 gal. tank. So much for
that one. Sigh.
My son really liked the Rosy Barbs we had, but they get up to 4 in.
and require a min. 30 gal. tank.
I considered platys, but read they too are especially susceptible to
diseases. Plus, I don't relish explaining the whole baby eating thing
to my son.
Well that about covers all the factors I'm taking into account based
on my readings. In addition to this site, I got a lot of my
information from www.lliveaquaria.com and www.badmanstropicalfish.com
and www.bestfish.com. There's a lot of conflicting info out there,
especially the pet stores vs. online info. I'm just taking the most
conservative route...within reason. If I followed the strictest of
guidelines, we end up with no fish!
Thanks again for the help.
PM
Mellie
Nitrates. If you go away for 7-10 days you should be ok with leaving
the water change till you return. I do weekly changes but at times it
has got to 10 days and I've not seen any reprocussion. My Cory
Panda's are a good indication of a water change as they become less
active.
Somebody posted a while back about stocking levels. From what I
understand you can slightly push the 1inch to a gallon if you are over
filtering which you are with an aquaclear 20. Its the same filter I
have on my 10g. When you make your decision post back here as I'm
sure somebody will tell you if it sounds ok. I bought 7 neons and
lost 2 in a few weeks. Also lost a white cloud. So planning can
sometimes not work as you think it will.
Sounds a bit jumbled doesn't it? My main thing that I would suggest
would be to get some live plants and some Flourish Excel. You have an
empty tank so now is the time to do it. Planted tanks are so
beautiful and help keep your water quality prestine.
HTH
Mellie
> andwww.bestfish.com. There's a lot of conflicting info out there,
NetMax
On Mar 8, 8:45 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Thank you so much for all your responses. The info was very helpful
> and interesting. I also appreciated most everyone taking my son's
> point of view into consideration. Frankly though, at this point, he'd
> be happy with just about any fish in the tank! The fishless cycling
> took many weeks. He's been amazingly patient and understanding (for a
> six year old), but he's getting anxious for Mom to be done with the
> research!
He hasn't indicated any preferences? My kids had a lot of different
preferences over the years, starting with big, active & shiny fish
(when they were small) and later ending with fish who had more
character and presense.
> Here's the additional information some requested:
>
> Equipment: 50 watt heater, aqua-clear 20 filter, 15 watt fluorescent
> light, natural stone gravel, and two plastic plants (one with silk
> leaves and plastic stems, the other all is plastic). Our tank also
> has a cover.
Sounds good, no issues there.
> Location: Small room with one window, but the tank is on a wall
> without a window. The room has an overhead light. It's not overly
> bright.
No problemo.
> Water: We use filtered tap water. Our water filter (not the one in
> the tank) removes the chlorine so we don't use any chemicals in the
> water. We've been using Marbel testing strips that change color to
> indicate the range of each water component. Here's the reading of a
> strip: Hardness -- between 50 and 120ppm, Alkalinity/Buffering
> Capacity -- 0, pH--6.4
Ok, here is your first two issues to manage. Cities typically use
either chloramine or chlorine in their water. I'm not sure your tap
filter will remove either effectively. Some live plants in the
aquarium will also help as tap filters are typically carbon, which can
break the chloramine bond leaving you with a quantity of ammonia. To
be on the safe side, I would plan on using a water conditioner to
detoxify your water (they are cheap insurance).
The 2nd issue is that your water's stability is governed by your
buffer which is recommended to be around 6dkH (and you're at zero).
This means your water's pH will not be stable, and your reading of
6.4pH would support this. Fish can live in a variety of conditions,
but they do poorly in conditions which move around a lot. Poorly
buffered water is not uncommon as many municipalities use water from
rivers (run-off, rainfall and/or snowmelt). Most common method to
shore up the buffer is to add calcium carbonates in the form of
minerals (like crushed coral). Some people sprinkle in a bit of
baking soda to boost the buffer, but this is a little tricky as you
don't want to bump up the pH, only the kH to keep the pH solid. If
you need more info on this, let us know. I hate to overwhelm you with
unneccesary chemistry.
Also, from this point onwards, the critters you want are known as
riverine or soft water creatures. Shrimps might be ok, snails would
not (not enough calcium in your water for their shells), frogs and
many many fish will be very pleased. No livebearers (Platys, Guppies,
Swordtails or Mollys), or any lake fish.
> I like the idea of shrimp, snails, or frogs to use a the scavengers.
> They would be fun and not take up too much realestate. One of the
> main guidelines I am using for tank selection is 1inch per gallon. I
> read that somewhere. I also read that my 10 gal. tank is probably not
> really 10 gal. once all the stuff is added. Also, most manufacturers
> round up when labelling the tank. So I probably have only 8-9 gallons
> to play with.
The rounding up is already taken care of. They assume a certain
amount of displacement. Also the inches per gallon is a guideline
which really doesn't make any sense, but it is easy to remember and is
not totally incorrect. It is more helpful than harmfull so it
persists. Suffice to say that a 1" tetra does not count for a 1" of
fish. The real math is according to the mass of the fish, and its
metabolism (consumption of O2 and how much waste and CO2 it expels).
Accordingly larger active fish are really using more than 1 gallon per
inch, and tiny fish like Neons are using much less than 1 gallon per
inch. Rather than explain this repeatedly, we throw the 1"/gallon
guideline around until someone really needs to know the truth.
In your case, you are looking at very small and not very active
creatures, so you can comfortably exceed this 1"/gallon guideline,
just incrememnting your maintenance upwards accordingly.
> Another reason I want to go with a conservative stocking scenario is
> I'm worried that if we go on vacation for 7 to 10 days, the nitrate
> levels will go off the charts. (I can find someone to feed the fish,
> but not to do water changes.) I'm assuming we need to do weekly water
> changes. Is that right?
Nope, all depends on the bioload. A small bioload, not being overfed
will not cause much in the way of nitrates, especially with some live
plants in there. Even a moderately stocked tank should not have an
excess of nitrates in a month if it was properly maintained.
> The guppies are supposed to grow to about 2in. so I figure I can get
> 3, which would account for 6 gal., and then I could toss in a couple
> of small scavengers (like the suggested snails or shrimp), which would
> take up the rest of the gallons. I read that guppies should be kept
> in a 20 gallon tank minimum, but I'm starting to give up on satisfying
> all criteria. I just don't think it's possible with a 10 gallon
> tank. I've read that guppies are hardy; plus I think my son will like
> all the bright colors.
Guppies may be alright, if you could get the pH stabilized higher.
The odds are against them otherwise, unless someone was breeding them
in the same conditions (which is unlikely as Guppy breeders tend to go
neutral to hard, rather than acidic).
> The glo-lite tetras reach a max. of 1.5 in. so I figure I could get
> away with 5. I've read these are hardy fish too.
Almost any tetra will be good with the water, so it's just a case of
picking size-appropriate tank-mates. This should be easy and fun!
> I'm abandoning the idea of the female bettas because I read they are
> disease prone. I want easy, hardy fish.
Female bettas aren't more disease prone than any other fish which is
good stock in proper conditions. Someone may have been complaining
about their local stock conditions.
> I appreciate the info on the Gouramis because I had been strongly
> considering them. The one we had originally was so beautiful and we
> liked the way he moved. But, they get up to 3 in., like company (yet
> are territorial), and require a minimum of 15 gal. tank. So much for
> that one. Sigh.
Besides the Dwarf Gourami, there is the Pygmy, Licorice and a few
others which are quite small.
> My son really liked the Rosy Barbs we had, but they get up to 4 in.
> and require a min. 30 gal. tank.
They are also more active than you would like in a 10g. Activity
requires space and makes the other fish nervous.
> I considered platys, but read they too are especially susceptible to
> diseases. Plus, I don't relish explaining the whole baby eating thing
> to my son.
Understood. Platys like hard water anyways. Almost all fish may try
to spawn. Tetras do so less frequently and it might go un-noticed
with some eggs appearing one day, gone the next.
> Well that about covers all the factors I'm taking into account based
> on my readings. In addition to this site, I got a lot of my
> information fromwww.lliveaquaria.comandwww.badmanstropicalfish.com
> andwww.bestfish.com. There's a lot of conflicting info out there,
> especially the pet stores vs. online info. I'm just taking the most
> conservative route...within reason. If I followed the strictest of
> guidelines, we end up with no fish!
Yes, this group TFA partly exists to help with the huge amounts of
information out there and to resolve some of the conflicts. I could
name half a dozen members here who between any two, have over 50 years
experience, in combinations of hobbyist, breeders and commercial trade
(stores, tank setups and maintenance). We should be able to give you
some easily verifiable advice :o)
My own site: http://www.2cah.com/netmax/
and regarding stocking levels:
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/stocking/stocking.shtml
I think you only need to address the water's pH and gH and then take
your son looking at tetras, such as Penquins, Glow-lites, Neons,
Cardinals, Rummynose, Flame, Bleeding Hearts, Black Neons, Emperor
tetras etc.
A frog or two, and two shoals of 5 tetras should do nicely. Buy 6 of
each to allow for a few losses. Tetras are not very hardy when first
moved, so some losses are to be expected. After a few months, they'll
be much more robust. Alternates to the frogs (which also don't like
their water too acidic) are the Kuhli loaches (kid-pleaser) os small
corys like the Pandas (parent-pleaser). Three small corys would be ok
with two groups of small tetras.
nm
Altum
good, thorough answer. I'll add a little, just in case I say
something differently that helps you understand.
On Mar 8, 5:45 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Thank you so much for all your responses. The info was very helpful
> and interesting. I also appreciated most everyone taking my son's
> point of view into consideration. Frankly though, at this point, he'd
> be happy with just about any fish in the tank! The fishless cycling
> took many weeks. He's been amazingly patient and understanding (for a
> six year old), but he's getting anxious for Mom to be done with the
> research!
LOL! Sounds like you have a wonderful kid. Be careful about the
fishless cycle. Add your first few fish and watch to be sure you get
nitrate and no ammonia or nitrite. Sometimes fishless cycling works
great but other times it doesn't establish as many bacteria as you
thought.
> Here's the additional information some requested:
>
> Equipment: 50 watt heater, aqua-clear 20 filter, 15 watt fluorescent
> light, natural stone gravel, and two plastic plants (one with silk
> leaves and plastic stems, the other all is plastic). Our tank also
> has a cover.
>
> Location: Small room with one window, but the tank is on a wall
> without a window. The room has an overhead light. It's not overly
> bright.
Sounds good. You have enough light for easy plants like Java fern,
Java moss, Anubias, and Cryptocorynes if you ever decide you want live
plants.
> Water: We use filtered tap water. Our water filter (not the one in
> the tank) removes the chlorine so we don't use any chemicals in the
> water. We've been using Marbel testing strips that change color to
> indicate the range of each water component. Here's the reading of a
> strip: Hardness -- between 50 and 120ppm, Alkalinity/Buffering
> Capacity -- 0, pH--6.4
What nice, soft water. I'm jealous. As NetMax mentioned, you'll have
to add some buffer to hold the pH steady. If it falls too low, the
bacteria that break down ammonia and nitrite start having trouble
surviving.
You have perfect water for tetras, barbs, rasboras, bettas, gouramis,
and corydoras catfish. Also just about anything from the Amazon or
African rivers. You have awful water for snails and guppies.
> I like the idea of shrimp, snails, or frogs to use a the scavengers.
> They would be fun and not take up too much realestate. One of the
> main guidelines I am using for tank selection is 1inch per gallon. I
> read that somewhere. I also read that my 10 gal. tank is probably not
> really 10 gal. once all the stuff is added. Also, most manufacturers
> round up when labelling the tank. So I probably have only 8-9 gallons
> to play with.
As NetMax mentioned, the difference in volume has already been taken
into account by the filter manufacturer.
> Another reason I want to go with a conservative stocking scenario is
> I'm worried that if we go on vacation for 7 to 10 days, the nitrate
> levels will go off the charts. (I can find someone to feed the fish,
> but not to do water changes.) I'm assuming we need to do weekly water
> changes. Is that right?
I'm a fan of weekly water changes, but not everyone runs tanks that
way. I find that weekly water changes keep the water very clean and
consistent for the fish. Every now and again I get too busy and miss
a week and the critters are none the worse for wear.
Normally, you can leave a properly maintained tank for a few weeks if
necessary and everything will be fine. You come back, assume the
aquarium water has shifted a bit from the tap water, and do a series
of small water changes to bring things back to normal without
stressing the fish. BTW, nitrate is a long-term stressor, not an
acute toxin. Even if nitrates were to climb some while you were away,
your fish would be fine for a week or two as long as the filter is
handling the ammonia and nitrite.
> The guppies are supposed to grow to about 2in. so I figure I can get
> 3, which would account for 6 gal., and then I could toss in a couple
> of small scavengers (like the suggested snails or shrimp), which would
> take up the rest of the gallons. I read that guppies should be kept
> in a 20 gallon tank minimum, but I'm starting to give up on satisfying
> all criteria. I just don't think it's possible with a 10 gallon
> tank. I've read that guppies are hardy; plus I think my son will like
> all the bright colors.
Huh?!? I know two world-class guppy breeders and they keep their fish
in 10 gallon tanks. They'll usually grow out about 20 males in each
tank, doing weekly water changes, and they toss in a couple cories to
scavenge uneaten food. Also, you don't count the tail when you
calculate stocking. Male guppies grow to 1" with a 1" tail, so they
only count as 1" of fish.
As I said before, you could put 7-8 male guppies and a trio of a small
species of corydoras into a 10 gallon tank with no problems at all.
BUT you would have to harden your water with crushed coral or GH and
KH builder to keep guppies. They're not softwater fish.
I don't think of guppies as hardy fish. They're overbred and much of
the stock is quite weak. I don't know about your area, but I've not
seen many healthy guppies for sale in pet stores around here. They're
usually sick and shimmying. I only get guppies from local breeders.
> The glo-lite tetras reach a max. of 1.5 in. so I figure I could get
> away with 5. I've read these are hardy fish too.
You can put 12-15 skinny, small fish like glo-light tetras in a 10
gallon tank with no problems at all. I don't find glo-lights any more
or less hardy than other small tetras. As NetMax mentioned, you'll
probably lose a few at first and then they'll settle in and live years
in your nice, soft water.
> I'm abandoning the idea of the female bettas because I read they are
> disease prone. I want easy, hardy fish.
Again, I'm with NetMax. Female bettas are quite hardy if you find a
healthy one to begin with. Keep in mind that bettas are carnivorous.
Be sure to get decent sized glo-lights or neons if you get a female
betta. The tiny 99-cent tetras offered in some stores can become
expensive live food for the betta. Ditto small shrimp.
> I appreciate the info on the Gouramis because I had been strongly
> considering them. The one we had originally was so beautiful and we
> liked the way he moved. But, they get up to 3 in., like company (yet
> are territorial), and require a minimum of 15 gal. tank. So much for
> that one. Sigh.
>
> My son really liked the Rosy Barbs we had, but they get up to 4 in.
> and require a min. 30 gal. tank.
Rosy barbs grow kind of big for a 10 gallon tank. You could get zebra
danios or cherry barbs if he likes active fish.
> I considered platys, but read they too are especially susceptible to
> diseases. Plus, I don't relish explaining the whole baby eating thing
> to my son.
In my experience, guppies are far more prone to diseases than
platies. Platies are actually pretty sturdy fish. Beginners tend to
have problems with platies because they're drawn to the pretty colors
and put them in brand-new uncycled tanks. Platies are quite sensitive
to ammonia and end up with stress-related problems. As with any fish,
you do have to find healthy stock. I understand the problem with the
baby eating thing. You could stick to male platies and then the
babies are not an issue.
> Well that about covers all the factors I'm taking into account based
> on my readings. In addition to this site, I got a lot of my
> information fromwww.lliveaquaria.comandwww.badmanstropicalfish.com
> andwww.bestfish.com. There's a lot of conflicting info out there,
> especially the pet stores vs. online info. I'm just taking the most
> conservative route...within reason. If I followed the strictest of
> guidelines, we end up with no fish!
Somehow, you're finding super-conservative information. You can do a
lot more with a 10 gallon tank than your reading has led you to
believe. On the bright side, you're much easier to help than our
other category of beginner..."I put 5 mollies and 5 platies into my
new tank a week ago, two died, and the rest look sick now". ;-)
--Altum
Skip
Honestly, we only do a 25% change eveyr 30-45 days, basically whenever
the filter becomes "full", and have not run into any harmful side
effects. Sometimes I think the purists out there (the fish equivalent
of the Audiophiles) like to tell everyone how they have to run their
tank, when in reality, every tank is different. Your mileage will
definitely vary.
Have fun with it, experiment, and I hope your boy learns a love of
fish like I learned from my Dad.
Skip.
> andwww.bestfish.com. There's a lot of conflicting info out there,
Altum
I may be a little unusual because I LIKE messing with my aquaria.
Water out...water in. In my experience fish grow larger, are more
active, are more colorful, and more likely to breed in really clean
water. My tanks are small and crowded with delicate fish, so I go the
extra mile and do weekly water changes.
--Altum
Shannon Mulberry
Altum <Pt.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
Fishophiles? ;-)
I may be a little unusual because I LIKE messing with my aquaria.
Water out...water in. In my experience fish grow larger, are more
active, are more colorful, and more likely to breed in really clean
water. My tanks are small and crowded with delicate fish, so I go the
extra mile and do weekly water changes.
--Altum
On Mar 9, 6:15 am, "Skip" wrote:
> Nitrates, shmitrates. I am far from religious on my water changes.
> Honestly, we only do a 25% change eveyr 30-45 days, basically whenever
> the filter becomes "full", and have not run into any harmful side
> effects. Sometimes I think the purists out there (the fish equivalent
> of the Audiophiles) like to tell everyone how they have to run their
> tank, when in reality, every tank is different. Your mileage will
> definitely vary.
>
> Have fun with it, experiment, and I hope your boy learns a love of
> fish like I learned from my Dad.
>
> Skip.
NetMax
more of the fishophile. Based on recent purchases, Marco can be the
microphile, Gill can be the fishaholic, and MG can be the fish
whisperer ;~) Everyone else can stake their claims for themselves.
====
> > Skip.- Hide quoted text -
denizen
On Mar 9, 9:15 am, "Skip" <SkipDa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nitrates, shmitrates. I am far from religious on my water changes.
> Honestly, we only do a 25% change eveyr 30-45 days, basically whenever
> the filter becomes "full", and have not run into any harmful side
> effects.
Yes, it depends on your fish load, how much/ what you feed, how good
your filters are, whether you use carbon, whether you have lots of
plants, your tapwater chemistry... tanks do vary.
I find things go consistently well with my tanks, if I do maintenance
every 2 weeks. But as you've pointed out, ymmv :o) .
d.
Mister Gardener
> more of the fishophile. Based on recent purchases, Marco can be the
> microphile, Gill can be the fishaholic, and MG can be the fish
> whisperer ;~) Everyone else can stake their claims for themselves.
> ====
friendly forum here.
MG
PM
information. I'm starting to feel like maybe my 10 gallon tank isn't
so bad after all. I will stop cursing my husband who brought it
home ;). I'm actually getting kind of excited about the prospects and
feel much more confident, armed with my new information, about buying
some fish!
Netmax, since you inquired about my son's preferences, I'll tell you
the whole story. He originally wanted goldfish. But even at that
early stage in the game, I got the distinct impression (from the pet
store) they'd be too big for our tank. So we got a male Rosy Barb
(because the color was similar) and a female to keep him company. My
son named him Goldie and her Mrs. Goldie. My son loved Goldie.
However, Goldie chased Mrs. Goldie relentlessly around the tank. We
got another female Rosy Barb (Mrs. Goldie II) and a Dwarf Gourami
(Slowy) thinking that would help. It didn't. He terrorized both
female barbs. The Gourami spent most of the time hiding by the
heater. Then we got a female betta (Beauty). I can't even remember
the rationale for that. Chaos ensued. That's when I started
reading. We returned all of them.
Everytime we go into the pet store, my son goes to the goldfish
first. I asked him what it is about goldfish that he likes so much.
He said 1) their color 2) he likes the name Goldie 3)they're nice
and 4) he eats goldfish (the crackers) for snack time. A later
conversation confirmed that it is definitely the color that he likes:
"gold with a touch of orange."
Honestly though, he has reacted positively to any of the fish I've
mentioned that I had thought might work in the tank (tetras,
guppies). When I mentioned tetras, he immediately came up with the
names Glowie and Lightbulb. The last time we were at the pet store,
he was pleading for guppies. So, he just wants some creatures.
However, if you happen to know of a fish that color, and that would
work in our tank, it would be much appreciated. He also liked the
female betta color "because of the silver" -- his words. She was
mainly deep purple, but had a silvery sheen to her. Oh, and he wants
"nice, nice, nice fish" -- probably because the original Goldie was so
mean to the others.
Now about the lack of buffers....
I've done more reading and think I understand what you're alluding
to. The process of the bacteria turning ammonia into nitrites and
then nitrates decreases the pH (makes the water more acidic) over time
if there aren't any buffers to stop the pH from dropping. You both
say I can add crushed coral to rectify the problem. Ok, I have three
questions about the coral. Does the effectiveness of the coral last
or do I need to do some type of regular maintenance (the buffer ions
get all used up)? Will the coral raise the pH if I add too much?
Will crushed coral be ok if I decide to get the panda corys or will it
damage their barbels?
As long as I'm on the topic of the corys, will our gravel be ok? My
husband (who did the cleaning of it) said it's pitted, not smooth like
river stones. I'm wondering if it would damage their barbels.
Altum, I'm glad you mentioned the plants. I've been intimidated at
the thought of trying to maintain live plants too. I did not want yet
another factor to take into consideration. I was also afraid if not
done correctly, it would lead to murky water and algae. But, I'm
starting to see that maybe they would be helpful. I don't know. More
research makes me cringe. There's just so much to know. And I want
to start off right because correcting mistakes later can be much more
difficult, and the fish suffer in the meantime.
Regarding both your stocking assessments...
I'm so thrilled that we can have 2 schools of tetras with 5 in each!
Plus, three corys or a couple of frogs to boot. If the corys can work
with our substrate, I'll go with them since they like the low pH more
than the frogs. I'm going to start looking at the different tetras.
What do you think about 1 school of tetras with a different species
like bettas or the pygmy gouramis? Is there another more peaceful,
non-territoral species that would work with a single school of
tetras? I know the bettas may fight and I suspect that would be the
case with the gouramis too. Is that right?
Again, thanks Netmax and Altum for all your help. And thanks to
everyone who shared their experiences. It always is helpul and
interesting to know what has worked for others.
PM
Altum
On Mar 9, 7:08 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow. Netmax and Altum, I can't thank you enough for all the great
> information. I'm starting to feel like maybe my 10 gallon tank isn't
> so bad after all. I will stop cursing my husband who brought it
> home ;). I'm actually getting kind of excited about the prospects and
> feel much more confident, armed with my new information, about buying
> some fish!
Great! This is supposed to be a fun hobby. ;-)
> Netmax, since you inquired about my son's preferences, I'll tell you
> the whole story. He originally wanted goldfish. But even at that
> early stage in the game, I got the distinct impression (from the pet
> store) they'd be too big for our tank. So we got a male Rosy Barb
> (because the color was similar) and a female to keep him company. My
> son named him Goldie and her Mrs. Goldie. My son loved Goldie.
> However, Goldie chased Mrs. Goldie relentlessly around the tank. We
> got another female Rosy Barb (Mrs. Goldie II) and a Dwarf Gourami
> (Slowy) thinking that would help. It didn't. He terrorized both
> female barbs. The Gourami spent most of the time hiding by the
> heater. Then we got a female betta (Beauty). I can't even remember
> the rationale for that. Chaos ensued. That's when I started
> reading. We returned all of them.
The pet store was right about the goldfish. They'll grow to 6-8" in
indoor tanks, and as big as a foot outdoors.
> Everytime we go into the pet store, my son goes to the goldfish
> first. I asked him what it is about goldfish that he likes so much.
> He said 1) their color 2) he likes the name Goldie 3)they're nice
> and 4) he eats goldfish (the crackers) for snack time. A later
> conversation confirmed that it is definitely the color that he likes:
> "gold with a touch of orange."
>
> Honestly though, he has reacted positively to any of the fish I've
> mentioned that I had thought might work in the tank (tetras,
> guppies). When I mentioned tetras, he immediately came up with the
> names Glowie and Lightbulb. The last time we were at the pet store,
> he was pleading for guppies. So, he just wants some creatures.
> However, if you happen to know of a fish that color, and that would
> work in our tank, it would be much appreciated. He also liked the
> female betta color "because of the silver" -- his words. She was
> mainly deep purple, but had a silvery sheen to her. Oh, and he wants
> "nice, nice, nice fish" -- probably because the original Goldie was so
> mean to the others.
Awww...Most tetras are peaceful. He might like the color of platies
too. Sunset platies are almost the color of goldfish. I used to sell
platies to people who thought they wanted goldfish in a 10 gallon
tank. Avoid the baby problem by getting a trio of males. I'd get
three rather than two because sometimes you get a male that's a bit of
a chaser, and having two targets (even if they're not female) will
divide his attention.
> Now about the lack of buffers....
>
> I've done more reading and think I understand what you're alluding
> to. The process of the bacteria turning ammonia into nitrites and
> then nitrates decreases the pH (makes the water more acidic) over time
> if there aren't any buffers to stop the pH from dropping. You both
> say I can add crushed coral to rectify the problem. Ok, I have three
> questions about the coral. Does the effectiveness of the coral last
> or do I need to do some type of regular maintenance (the buffer ions
> get all used up)? Will the coral raise the pH if I add too much?
> Will crushed coral be ok if I decide to get the panda corys or will it
> damage their barbels?
You can put the coral in your filter instead of on the substrate, and
you only use a handfull. It eventually either dissolves or gets
coated with organics and stops dissolving. I've always used powdered
buffers like Seachem's KH builder myself, so someone else is going to
have to give you more details on the coral.
> As long as I'm on the topic of the corys, will our gravel be ok? My
> husband (who did the cleaning of it) said it's pitted, not smooth like
> river stones. I'm wondering if it would damage their barbels.
If it's typical fish store epoxy coated aquarium gravel, it's fine.
Most plain gravels and sands are OK too. Cories sometimes have
trouble with really rough stuff like fractured clay or Flourite.
> Altum, I'm glad you mentioned the plants. I've been intimidated at
> the thought of trying to maintain live plants too. I did not want yet
> another factor to take into consideration. I was also afraid if not
> done correctly, it would lead to murky water and algae. But, I'm
> starting to see that maybe they would be helpful. I don't know. More
> research makes me cringe. There's just so much to know. And I want
> to start off right because correcting mistakes later can be much more
> difficult, and the fish suffer in the meantime.
You are right that dying plants are not good for tanks. Growing
plants are great for the water, though. Put a nice full-spectrum bulb
in your hood and run the light for 12 hours a day and you will be able
to grow some plants if you like.
There are some really sturdy plants that are good for beginners.
Anubias spp., and Java fern (Microsorum) are attractive and very easy
to grow. They are a bit more expensive than bunch plants because they
grow more slowly so beginners shy away from them. It's a mistake
because they're hardy and undemanding. If you find Java fern, tie it
to a piece of red lava rock or a piece of bogwood rather than burying
its rhizome in the gravel and it will grow larger. (Bogwood will
yellow your water for a while as it leaches. It's not a problem for
softwater fish, but might lower the pH a bit.)
I also mentioned Cryptocorynes. Crypts are beautiful plants, but a
bit slow to establish. They can grow under modest lighting and make
your tank look quite lush in time. They sometimes drop their leaves
when you first plant them, so don't be alarmed. Just remove the leaves
as they "melt". They regrow from the roots. Crypts are heavy root
feeders, so it's best to plant them in tanks that are a few months old
and have a little bacteria and dirt in the gravel. They appreciate
root fertilizers like Flourish tablets too. The most common pet store
variety is the common Cryptocoryne wendtii and it's a plant that's
well worth buying. There are both green and reddish strains.
Other plants you could try in soft water are Rotala indica or
rotundifolia, a swordplant, or a clump of java moss. If you get
Rotala, take the lead weight off, trim off any damaged bits from the
stems, and plant the stems separately. Sometimes it grows too tall
and starts to bend over. Cut off the top and replant. The remaining
stem will start a new shoot and the top will grow into another plant.
Swordplants sometimes get a little big for 10 gallon tanks, but you
could try one and see what happens. There are worse things than
having a healthy, green swordplant take over your tank. ;-) Swords
are heavy root feeders, so use fertilizer tablets for it.
Healthy plants will use up nutrients from the water and you'll usually
end up with less algae than in a completely unplanted tank. Under
your modest lighting, you can use root tablets and fertilize with an
iron and potash fertilizer like Leaf Zone. I used to recommend
Flourish Excel for carbon, but I've gotten wary of it lately. To be
honest, my fish seem to do better without it. Amano shrimp or
Otocinclus will climb among the plants and eat algae from the leaves,
so add a couple if you see algae. Don't worry about the bioload too
much - both critters are small and pretty easy on the filter. (Does
anyone actually count their otos in stocking calculations???)
> Regarding both your stocking assessments...
>
> I'm so thrilled that we can have 2 schools of tetras with 5 in each!
> Plus, three corys or a couple of frogs to boot. If the corys can work
> with our substrate, I'll go with them since they like the low pH more
> than the frogs. I'm going to start looking at the different tetras.
> What do you think about 1 school of tetras with a different species
> like bettas or the pygmy gouramis? Is there another more peaceful,
> non-territoral species that would work with a single school of
> tetras? I know the bettas may fight and I suspect that would be the
> case with the gouramis too. Is that right?
Cories are also a bit easier to keep than frogs. When you make the
decision about frogs, remember that they don't usually accept flake
foods. They require foods like frozen bloodworms. It may be worth
the effort if your son is enchanted by them.
A school of tetras with ONE betta or gourami would work out fine. The
aggression comes when you put more than one anabantid (betta, gourami,
or paradise fish) in a small tank. That's why chaos ensued when you
added the female betta to a tank with a dwarf gourami. They've either
got to be in groups with a lot of cover so no single fish gets chased
too much, or solo.
As far as tetras, ember tetras, neon tetras, black neons, glo-light
tetras, or von rio (flame) tetras all stay small and would work well
for you.
> Again, thanks Netmax and Altum for all your help. And thanks to
> everyone who shared their experiences. It always is helpul and
> interesting to know what has worked for others.
LOL! Typed another novel.
You're welcome for the help. I hope you'll stick around and enjoy the
group once your tank is up and running. :-)
--Altum
Mister Gardener
> I've always used powdered
> buffers like Seachem's KH builder myself, so someone else is going to
> have to give you more details on the coral.
Someone Else writes:
I use crushed coral or "marine substrate" to buffer my very soft water. This
is best obtained from a fish store that will sell you a couple of cups of
their stock supply. A marine tank friend is another good source. My lfs
stopped using it in favor of liquid buffers, so I had to buy a 20 pound bag
that will last through many lifetimes. I add a handful - half a cup maybe -
to mesh bags which are available at better fish stores everywhere, and the
mesh bag goes into my Whisper filter biobags or into the filter chamber of
filters that don't use bags such as Aquaclears. I rinse the mesh bag each
time I change the filter media because the bacteria tend to slime it over.
At media change time, monthly for me, I simply transfer the mesh bag into
the new biobag after rinsing. You can skip the mesh bag, but it's a pain
transferring the coral or aragonite from a wet biobag to a fresh one. The
smallest tank I have is 15 gallons, and the single handful described above
bumps my carbonate hardness from 1 DKH to 3 DKH and keeps it there. It does
not raise my pH, but the KH stabilizes my pH. The handful of coral or
aragonite will last for years as it leaches very slowly.
Other fish keepers mix the marine substrate, (white), or crushed coral, (off
white), with their gravel substrate - no messy bags to deal with every month
and a reliable, continuous influx of buffer directly into the water column.
If the filter method doesn't provide the desired level of buffer, the
substrate method is probably the way to go.
Whichever method you choose, you will initially see a cloud of white in your
water. This will mostly clear in a couple of hours and clear completely in
24 hours.
Since fish stores are moving toward liquid marine buffers and away from
crushed coral or aragonite it may be harder to find the smaller amounts we
freshwater people need.
SE
NetMax
On Mar 9, 10:08 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow. Netmax and Altum, I can't thank you enough for all the great
> information. I'm starting to feel like maybe my 10 gallon tank isn't
> so bad after all. I will stop cursing my husband who brought it
> home ;). I'm actually getting kind of excited about the prospects and
> feel much more confident, armed with my new information, about buying
> some fish!
Welll, you can still curse him a little bit ;~) Your life would have
been easier with a 20g, but we all had to start somewhere. The larger
the tank, the more stable the parameters (pH, temperature etc) and the
extra fin-room gives you that much more flexibility in choosing fish.
Territorial fish tend to have an 'ownership' radius (10 to 20"), so
that tends to consume all or most of a small tank.
This will push you more towards non-territorial fish (be very cautious
of cichids, gouramis, bettas etc), but by their nature, non-teritorial
fish are swimmers, their feeding & spawning patterns involve lots of
movement, so in a 10g, you get *tiny* non-territorial fish :o)
Good, then while he has some preferences, they are not strong. This
leaves you with more options.
Small tanks lend themselves to species tanks (all of the same type of
fish), usually shoalers (fish who share space and swim together).
This really maximizes the tank's usage as they actually prefer to be
in a bit of a crowd, and filtration can compensate for the extra fish
load. Instead of 2 groups of five small teras, you could also have
one group of 12 to 15 small tetras. On the surface, species tanks
might seem less inviting, but when fish don't have to contend with
other types around, their behavior tends to become much more
specialized and involved. Just an idea, though the extra interesting
behavior will partly be lost on a young child unless you point it
out. Something like watching Neon tetras sparring for top dog
position, or chasing each other in and out of the plants. With other
large fish in the tank, Neons spend more of their time looking over
their shoulders ;~)
At the other extreme, having only one or two centrepiece fish is still
an option (similar to the Goldfish route). A trio of Pearl gouramis
with some plants might be a low-maintenance option.
In terms of gold coloration and to keep in acidic water..... Gold Rosy
barbs would be what comes to mind, but too large. I think there is a
gold variant of the White cloud minnow, and this is a fish which
someone already mentioned and would do very well. Some of the Dwarf
and Coral gouramis would be quite colorful too.
Also keep in mind that you can keep almost any small fish in a 10g, if
you're planning on getting a larger aquarium in the future. A couple
of small gold Ryukin goldfish would be very happy in a 10g, and
eventually, you re-home them into a 40g (sometime between his 7th and
8th birthday).
> Now about the lack of buffers....
>
> I've done more reading and think I understand what you're alluding
> to. The process of the bacteria turning ammonia into nitrites and
> then nitrates decreases the pH (makes the water more acidic) over time
> if there aren't any buffers to stop the pH from dropping. You both
> say I can add crushed coral to rectify the problem. Ok, I have three
> questions about the coral. Does the effectiveness of the coral last
> or do I need to do some type of regular maintenance (the buffer ions
> get all used up)?
The effectiveness of coral last while there is physically coral to
dissolve.
> Will the coral raise the pH if I add too much?
Yes & no, depending on the meaning of your question. Yes - because a
large amount of coral, like a crushed coral substate will cause the pH
to rise, potentially to around 8.2 to 8.4, which may not lend itself
to the softwater fish you want to add. No - because coral is self-
regulating and will not go higher than 8.4pH and the less acidic your
water is, the less the coral will dissolve (and this 8is pH range is
desirable for certain fish).
In your case, you don't want the coral to dissolve to the point of
equilibrium, only to dissolve enough to stabilize your water. Coral
does not act quickly (like baking soda or other chemicals), so the
chances of overcompensating are small. An amount in a filter media
bag as MG described is the way to go. Incidentally Goldfish are
neutral to hardwater fish.
> Will crushed coral be ok if I decide to get the panda corys or will it
> damage their barbels?
Crushed coral substrate comes in different grades. Aragonite and
dolomite are other gravel substrates which buffer water. Basically
substrates advertised for African cichlids are usually calcium rich
buffering minerals. With this much choice, you have more of a chance
of finding smooth edges, small light stones which cory barbels can
move through easily. Another strategy, besides calcium minerals in
the filter or as the substrate is to use larger chunks of coral (about
1 to 2" in size) scattered on top of existing substrate.
Another method is to use calcium-leeching stones, like chunks of
pertified wood, tufa, coral, limestone, marble etc.
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/rocks/rocks.shtml
Keep in mind that not all stones work equally well (marble is slow
dissolving, tufa is fast), and their effect depends on surface area
exposed to moving water (large blocks are slow dissolving, small
stones in the filter are fast). I just wanted to give you an
overview, so I hope I didn't make it sound complicated, it isn't.
> As long as I'm on the topic of the corys, will our gravel be ok? My
> husband (who did the cleaning of it) said it's pitted, not smooth like
> river stones. I'm wondering if it would damage their barbels.
As Altum said, epoxy coated substrates are fine, as are most smooth
gravels and sands.
> Altum, I'm glad you mentioned the plants. I've been intimidated at
> the thought of trying to maintain live plants too. I did not want yet
> another factor to take into consideration. I was also afraid if not
> done correctly, it would lead to murky water and algae. But, I'm
> starting to see that maybe they would be helpful. I don't know. More
> research makes me cringe. There's just so much to know. And I want
> to start off right because correcting mistakes later can be much more
> difficult, and the fish suffer in the meantime.
With respect to all the talented, knowlegable and enthusiastic aquatic
gardeners out there, I will give you my take on plants. You buy a
bunch which look interesting, plant them. If they grow, you spread
them out. If they die, you pull them out. That's it, that's all.
Plants need light and food (fish poop). Thay CAN benefit from extra
iron, phosphates, nitrogen, CO2, trace elements etc etc, but in my
house, after 30 years, the only thing my plants get are water, light
and fish poop.
It's called survival of the fittest. It works with my terrestrial
plants as well, but I don't need to remember to water my aquarium
plants.
> Regarding both your stocking assessments...
>
> I'm so thrilled that we can have 2 schools of tetras with 5 in each!
> Plus, three corys or a couple of frogs to boot. If the corys can work
> with our substrate, I'll go with them since they like the low pH more
> than the frogs. I'm going to start looking at the different tetras.
> What do you think about 1 school of tetras with a different species
> like bettas or the pygmy gouramis? Is there another more peaceful,
> non-territoral species that would work with a single school of
> tetras? I know the bettas may fight and I suspect that would be the
> case with the gouramis too. Is that right?
With your new information, I suggest you buffer your water and perhaps
pay another visit to the pet shop. Sometimes the best fish really
just depends on what is locally available to you. You will probably
stock in two passes (you don't want to max the tank in one go). If
you fishless cycled, you should still be feeding the tank (a drop of
ammonia every day or 2 until you have fish). I think the definition
of cycled is for a system to convert 5ppm of ammonia to zero in 24
hours. It's not so rigourous though, as it will rebalance to your
fish. Don't forget to do a large water change before adding the fish
(to drop the nitrate level from all that artificial ammonia).
> Again, thanks Netmax and Altum for all your help. And thanks to
> everyone who shared their experiences. It always is helpul and
> interesting to know what has worked for others.
>
> PM
The pleasure is also ours. You're taking the time to research, and
deserve any help we can offer you :o)
====
PM
Hi again everyone,
This has really been so informative. I feel like I'm getting very
close to actually getting fish. And they just might survive... :)
Altum, thanks for all the plant suggestions. I still don't know if I
want to deal with it, although I might be able to handle NetMax's
strategy of "put a bunch of plants in there and keep whatever lives."
Will my current fluorescent light work for plants or is a full
spectrum light another type of light altogether? Are the fake plants
bad for the fish? Will the plastic damage their fins?
SE, thanks for the detailed help on the crushed coral technique you
use, and NetMax thanks for the details on how it all works. If I can
buy a small amount, I'll probably go with this method. If not, I'll
take NetMax's suggestion of the solid pieces of coral directly on the
substrate. Will the solid chunks of coral be too sharp for the corys
or the tetras, though? How sharp is the marine substrate (white) that
SE mentioned? Ok for corys?
I saw some pictures of orange von rio flame tetras (mentioned by
Altum) and am strongly leaning toward them. They are the right
color. I may just do one large shoal as suggested by NetMax. They
look a little bigger, however, than the glowlights. Can I still do 10
or 12? If I do go with 2 small shoals, would mixing them with some
cardinal tetras work?
NetMax, we are still adding ammonia to the tank daily and the bio
filter seems to be working fine. Thanks for the advice on the large
water change and the staggered stocking. We'll definitely do both.
Plus adding some type of buffer. And maybe plants.
I'm going to pay another visit to our pet store and see if they have
the fish I want. I'll be looking for panda corys too. Probably won't
be able to go until Monday, though. I'll post after my visit and let
you know what I find.
Again, thanks so much. There is no way, even with all the reading I
had been doing, that I would have known to do all this. For example,
I was really paying attention to only the ammonia, nitrite, and
nitrate levels. Buffers weren't even on my radar. And I just assume
our water was hard since we don't have a water softening system. If
not for your help, I probably would have ended up with a tank full of
floating guppies & snail, and a very, very unhappy child.
Also, thanks to Skip for steering us to this forum in the first
place. Thank goodness for fishophiles! :)
PM
Mister Gardener
> use, and NetMax thanks for the details on how it all works. If I can
> buy a small amount, I'll probably go with this method. If not, I'll
> take NetMax's suggestion of the solid pieces of coral directly on the
> substrate. Will the solid chunks of coral be too sharp for the corys
> or the tetras, though? How sharp is the marine substrate (white) that
> SE mentioned? Ok for corys?
I haven't used a coral or marine substrate, the bag in filter method gives
me enough of a KH buffer boost, but I think these materials would be very
rough on bottom dwellers, especially corys and others with barbells. I can't
speak for NM, but I believe he has suggested mixing some of the stuff with
regular gravel, rather than covering the entire floor of the aquarium. I
await his further input on this.
MG (SE, or Someone Else in previous entries to this thread. Sorry if I
caused confusion.)
Mister Gardener
barbels, not barbells. One of these days I will tame this automatic spell
corrector.
MG (right click - add to dictionary)
padeen
levels, plants, buffering, the lot. It's great to see a range of
opinions coming from different persectives in the one thread.
Thanks, NetMax, MG, Altum and Denizen, you're a treat.
Mellie
to get 3 male platys. Want some colour in the tank. I currenlty have
1 lone bumble bee goby in there. I've got a 10g with panda cory's
in. They have the 'bog standard' gravel from Walmart I believe. Have
seen no ill effects. My Panda's are by far the most entertaining fish
I've ever had. I have an air stone running and the 3 of them play
constantly up and down the air stream. Its very amusing. I added an
oto a couple of weeks ago and he wants to be a panda. He joins in
although they do knock him flying a few times as they are now about 5
times the size of him.
I'd so recommend panda cory's. Such a big fan now.
Good luck with the beginning of your stocking. This is the most
addictive hobby. You'll be there every week buying something new
now :-)
Cheers
Mellie
NetMax
On Mar 10, 11:17 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi again everyone,
...
> Will my current fluorescent light work for plants or is a full
> spectrum light another type of light altogether?
Yes, almost any general purpose flourescent light will grow plants.
You can improve their growth by using more specialized lights, and
enough has been written on the subject to fill a book. With a small
tank, you have connections for one bulb, so a general purpose will
generally be it. When you replace it, try one which references plant
life. Replacement time for a bulb over plants is annual or sooner if
you notice a difference. Over fish, you can keep it for years and
years, as the degrading is not visible to the human eye, but plants
may slow down.
When you do feel ambitious and want to research more on the topic,
perhaps for a new hood or larger aquarium, then this is still the
right place to talk about the relevant specs on lights, like CRI
(accuracy), K (temperature or frequency) and wattage. This is a hobby
which can go down a lot of twisty hallways ;~)
> Are the fake plants
> bad for the fish? Will the plastic damage their fins?
Regarding damage, unlikely, and many artificial plants use painted
silk leaves. They are not bad for the fish, they simply don't
contribute anything to their well being.
In this hobby there is a common expression that we don't really care
for fish as much as we care for water. If we keep the water well,
fish generally do great. Plants help us keep the water well.
>... solid pieces of coral directly on the
> substrate. Will the solid chunks of coral be too sharp for the corys
> or the tetras, though?
The solid chunks I have in mind would not harm any fish. They are
like pieces of lego. You pile them up in the back corners of the
tank. You cannot gravel vac under them, so you don't want them where
fish food or poop drops. They become great places for baby fish to
hide. The edges are relatively smooth, and corys won't be doing
anything around them.
How sharp is the marine substrate (white) that
> SE mentioned? Ok for corys?
Probably varies, but generally crushed coral is a bit sharp.
> I saw some pictures of orange von rio flame tetras (mentioned by
> Altum) and am strongly leaning toward them. They are the right
> color. I may just do one large shoal as suggested by NetMax. They
> look a little bigger, however, than the glowlights. Can I still do 10
> or 12? If I do go with 2 small shoals, would mixing them with some
> cardinal tetras work?
Nice choice. These are a bit bigger than some of the tetras I was
thinking of, so you might reduce the numbers to a shoal of 10, or 6
with a shoal of 6 Cardinals. I don't know how well they would behave
together. Fish combinations are frequently unpredictable, especially
in small places, and depending on the sequence of introduction and who
is larger. Ordinarily, I can tell you that they would ignore each
other. The recommended method would be to populate the tank with
Cardinals first, and after a week or two, if the water parameters are
all good, add the Flame tetras.
>... large
> water change and the staggered stocking. We'll definitely do both.
> Plus adding some type of buffer. And maybe plants.
You should have the buffer in place for several days before adding any
fish. Always avoid any actions which will change the water parameters
when there are fish in the tank, especially small fish.
> I'm going to pay another visit to our pet store and see if they have
> the fish I want. I'll be looking for panda corys too.
I don't recommend Pandas at this time. Even Cardinals can be a bit
fragile. A lot depends on i) how similar your water conditions are to
the store's (you have limited control on this), ii) the quality of
their stock (you have no control on this) and iii) how stable your own
aquarium is (you are stabilized to liquid ammonia and have no buffer
at the moment). The Flame tetras, if not too small are probably your
most robust choice.
If you had the CDs and the Flames in your tank for a couple of problem-
free months, then the Pandas would suit your tank ideally. jmo
> Probably won't
> be able to go until Monday, though. I'll post after my visit and let
> you know what I find.
kewl, happy fishing
====
<snip>
> PM
Altum
On Mar 10, 8:17 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi again everyone,
>
> This has really been so informative. I feel like I'm getting very
> close to actually getting fish. And they just might survive... :)
>
> Altum, thanks for all the plant suggestions. I still don't know if I
> want to deal with it, although I might be able to handle NetMax's
> strategy of "put a bunch of plants in there and keep whatever lives."
> Will my current fluorescent light work for plants or is a full
> spectrum light another type of light altogether? Are the fake plants
> bad for the fish? Will the plastic damage their fins?
LOL! I was trying to give you the shortcut by telling you the ones
most likely to live. ;-) Lighting is a real can of worms...
Basically, if your light is bright enough and looks white plants can
grow. Full spectrum tubes look natural and provide plenty of red and
blue wavelengths for plants, so they've gotten popular in the hobby.
The main thing is to choose a basically white bulb that you think
makes your tank look nice. No matter what bulb you choose, plan on
replacing it every six months to grow plants most easily. The light
output of fluorescent tubes drops with time and using fresh tubes can
really make a difference.
If you want a recommendation, I was running a 15W light for a while
over my 10g. I got a Coralife Nutragrow and hated it. It's designed
for plants, but the tank looked overwhelmingly GREEN to me. Six
months later, I replaced it with a 6700K Hagen Life-glo II and I
really liked that bulb.
As for fake plants, they're fine. Fake plants give fish the same sort
of cover and security as live ones, so it's much better to have fakes
than none. Male bettas and longfinned fish will sometimes tear a fin
on plastic plants so I use silk for those fish. Most of the fish
we've discussed are fine with plastic.
> SE, thanks for the detailed help on the crushed coral technique you
> use, and NetMax thanks for the details on how it all works. If I can
> buy a small amount, I'll probably go with this method. If not, I'll
> take NetMax's suggestion of the solid pieces of coral directly on the
> substrate. Will the solid chunks of coral be too sharp for the corys
> or the tetras, though? How sharp is the marine substrate (white) that
> SE mentioned? Ok for corys?
If sharpness becomes an issue, you can always get a bottle of KH
builder. I doubt it would hurt your cories.
> I saw some pictures of orange von rio flame tetras (mentioned by
> Altum) and am strongly leaning toward them. They are the right
> color. I may just do one large shoal as suggested by NetMax. They
> look a little bigger, however, than the glowlights. Can I still do 10
> or 12? If I do go with 2 small shoals, would mixing them with some
> cardinal tetras work?
Von rios are a little bigger than glo-lights. I'd figure on about a
fish per gallon so 10 for the tank or 5 for a small shoal. Mixing
them with cardinals would be beautiful. Cardinals are usually wild-
caught so they're a little tough to get settled into a tank, but then
they'll live for years. Neons are captive bred and a little more
tolerant of transportation and changes in water parameters. If you do
get cardinals, acclimate them very gradually and don't be surprised if
you lose a few. Also, go easy on the coral and buffers. Cardinals
love soft water, so you're shooting for KH3 or 4 - just enough to hold
the pH steady.
> NetMax, we are still adding ammonia to the tank daily and the bio
> filter seems to be working fine. Thanks for the advice on the large
> water change and the staggered stocking. We'll definitely do both.
> Plus adding some type of buffer. And maybe plants.
>
> I'm going to pay another visit to our pet store and see if they have
> the fish I want. I'll be looking for panda corys too. Probably won't
> be able to go until Monday, though. I'll post after my visit and let
> you know what I find.
>
> Again, thanks so much. There is no way, even with all the reading I
> had been doing, that I would have known to do all this. For example,
> I was really paying attention to only the ammonia, nitrite, and
> nitrate levels. Buffers weren't even on my radar. And I just assume
> our water was hard since we don't have a water softening system. If
> not for your help, I probably would have ended up with a tank full of
> floating guppies & snail, and a very, very unhappy child.
You're welcome. I really hope you end up with a tank that both you
and your son enjoy.
--Altum
PM
There is no room in our filter for crushed coral. On the filter's
box, there's a diagram that would make it seem that there should be
extra room for something, but I'm guessing it's a diagram of their
filter for larger tanks, and they use the same diagram for all of
their boxes. (We have an AquaClear20.) Also, neither pet store had
the coral lego bricks described by NetMax. I couldn't find them
online either.
During my last post I was filled with enthusiasm and hope. It took
only one visit to a pet store and a phone call to another to take care
of that. The manager at the chain pet store gave me some information
that I'd like to run by this group if you don't mind. She said that I
should never replace the little bag of ceramic rings (looks like white
stones to me) in the filter. The box says replace every 3 months.
She said that's where the good bacteria live and I don't want to take
those out. Makes sense. She said, however, I should replace the
carbon component every month. She didn't say when to replace the
sponge component. Any thoughts on these ideas?
When I called around looking for coral chunks, the guy at the
independent pet store said since my tap water was 6.4 pH and my tank
water (which has been in operation since Jan.) is still 6.4, then I
didn't need to do anything about the kH. When I asked about the acid
generated by the nitrogen cycle lowering the pH eventually, he got a
little irritated and told me about a product called Acid Buffer. I
looked this up. Here's what the company's literature says:
"Acid Buffer™ is a non-phosphate buffer to lower pH and buffer with
Alkaline Buffer™. Both buffers are designed for the planted aquarium
or for very hard water where phosphate buffers may pose an algae or
cloudiness problem. Acid Buffer™ lowers pH and buffers between 5.0 and
8.0 when used with Alkaline Buffer™. As Acid Buffer™ lowers pH it
converts carbonate alkalinity (KH) into available CO2."
At this point, I'm ready to give up. I know my pH is already low
enough, and this sounds way too complicated anyway. The kH test I
have is part of a master test kit by Mardel. They are strips you dip
in the water. There's a color for 0 and a color for 80ppm. I get the
color for zero. But, if it was actually 40ppm, how would I know? For
the pH, the lowest reading is 6.4, which is the color I get. But, how
would I know if it goes lower? I got another test yesterday,
specifically for pH. A drop test. I have not tried it yet. However,
the lowest reading for this test is 6.0. Does anyone know of better
tests, which give a wider range and more specific readings?
I did read this nice article on water chemistry. (http://
www.automatedaquariums.com/tech2o.htm) I'm wondering if I do frequent
partial water changes (once/week), can I leave my kH alone? I know
that the cardinals and neons like a low pH and soft water so I don't
want to change those numbers, which could happen when I'm attempting
to change the kH.
On the bright side, the chain store had cardinals, neons, and the
orange von rio flames. No panda corys. They do have spotted corys,
albino corys, green corys, emerald green corys, and upsidedown
catfish. The independent shop carries pandas every once in a while,
but doesn't have them at the moment. I'm not ready for them anyway.
Would the spotted work if I can't get pandas?
As you might be able to guess, I have given up on any thoughts of live
plants. I just can't handle any more variables right now.
PM
Gill Passman
On Mar 13, 1:49 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, nothing's ever easy. Especially when you have a 10 gal. tank.
> There is no room in our filter for crushed coral. On the filter's
> box, there's a diagram that would make it seem that there should be
> extra room for something, but I'm guessing it's a diagram of their
> filter for larger tanks, and they use the same diagram for all of
> their boxes. (We have an AquaClear20.) Also, neither pet store had
> the coral lego bricks described by NetMax. I couldn't find them
> online either.
Sorry, late coming into this thread......the reason you would be
looking to put coral in the tank is to buffer and/or raise the pH -
you could achieve this by just putting a small bag of the stuff at the
back of the tank - by bag I mean something like the toe of a pair of
tights/stocking - well rinsed of course....
>
> During my last post I was filled with enthusiasm and hope. It took
> only one visit to a pet store and a phone call to another to take care
> of that. The manager at the chain pet store gave me some information
> that I'd like to run by this group if you don't mind. She said that I
> should never replace the little bag of ceramic rings (looks like white
> stones to me) in the filter. The box says replace every 3 months.
> She said that's where the good bacteria live and I don't want to take
> those out. Makes sense. She said, however, I should replace the
> carbon component every month. She didn't say when to replace the
> sponge component. Any thoughts on these ideas?
She is right.....rinse the ceramic rings occassionally in a bucket of
tank water to clear the worst of the crud off them....same for the
filter sponges - you should only need to replace these if they start
to fall apart. Activated carbon reaches the end of its useful life
after a certain period of time so if you are using carbon then it will
need to be replaced. Personally I only use carbon to pull medication
out of the water and in my Nano reef tank.....I would also use it to
remove any toxins....
>
> When I called around looking for coral chunks, the guy at the
> independent pet store said since my tap water was 6.4 pH and my tank
> water (which has been in operation since Jan.) is still 6.4, then I
> didn't need to do anything about the kH.
He could well be right - but IIRC you haven't got the fish in there
yet......I would monitor the pH closely during the first weeks after
putting the fish in......If your tap water is 6.4 then if your pH does
start to crash changing some of the water will give you a first line
of defence - then post here - luckily I've not had this problem but
there are others here who can give you advice on it.
> When I asked about the acid
> generated by the nitrogen cycle lowering the pH eventually, he got a
> little irritated and told me about a product called Acid Buffer. I
> looked this up. Here's what the company's literature says:
>
> "Acid Buffer™ is a non-phosphate buffer to lower pH and buffer with
> Alkaline Buffer™. Both buffers are designed for the planted aquarium
> or for very hard water where phosphate buffers may pose an algae or
> cloudiness problem. Acid Buffer™ lowers pH and buffers between 5.0 and
> 8.0 when used with Alkaline Buffer™. As Acid Buffer™ lowers pH it
> converts carbonate alkalinity (KH) into available CO2."
I am anti adding anything into the water to adjust my pH preferring to
work on the basis that I keep fish suited to my local tap water
conditions. If I was to attempt to make any alterations I would look
at more natural methods - coral to raise, peat to lower for example -
or using RO water....
>
> At this point, I'm ready to give up. I know my pH is already low
> enough, and this sounds way too complicated anyway.
I would sometimes love to have a pH of 6.4 on the occassions I yearn
for discus etc.....you certainly do not need to lower it further. My
advice would be to forget any of these potions unless you actually
find that you need them.....
> The kH test I
> have is part of a master test kit by Mardel. They are strips you dip
> in the water. There's a color for 0 and a color for 80ppm. I get the
> color for zero. But, if it was actually 40ppm, how would I know?
You wouldn't - the clue would be your pH crashing if indeed it ever
does...
> For
> the pH, the lowest reading is 6.4, which is the color I get. But, how
> would I know if it goes lower? I got another test yesterday,
> specifically for pH. A drop test. I have not tried it yet. However,
> the lowest reading for this test is 6.0. Does anyone know of better
> tests, which give a wider range and more specific readings?
I believe you can buy both low and high range pH test kits. I
generally just stick with the Nutrafin test kit for pH for the
freshwater tanks which has a range of 5-9....
>
> I did read this nice article on water >chemistry. (http://www.automatedaquariums.com/tech2o.htm) I'm wondering if I do > frequent
> partial water changes (once/week), can I leave my kH alone?
Doing partial water changes does indeed help maintain your water at a
level closer to that of your tap water......almost everyone on this
group does routine water changes....I do them weekly in the main -
others do them less often or more frequently depending on the set up.
> I know
> that the cardinals and neons like a low pH and soft water so I don't
> want to change those numbers, which could happen when I'm attempting
> to change the kH.
Which is why the hands off approach is usually best......buffering
with coral is slightly different as it leeches slowly into the
tank......but really IMO you need to get those fish in there and see
what happens.
>
> On the bright side, the chain store had cardinals, neons, and the
> orange von rio flames. No panda corys. They do have spotted corys,
> albino corys, green corys, emerald green corys, and upsidedown
> catfish. The independent shop carries pandas every once in a while,
> but doesn't have them at the moment. I'm not ready for them anyway.
> Would the spotted work if I can't get pandas?
>
> As you might be able to guess, I have given up on any thoughts of live
> plants. I just can't handle any more variables right now.
My personal preference is for live plants - they help maintain the
water quality, look nice and the roots help to keep the gravel
aerated.....but I did see some great silk fake plants to day.......the
plants also can be very beneficial during cycling.....
Good luck....and go out and buy some fish - I couldn't have waited
since Jan until now.... ;-)
Gill
>
> PM
NetMax
On Mar 13, 9:49 am, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, nothing's ever easy. Especially when you have a 10 gal. tank.
> There is no room in our filter for crushed coral. On the filter's
> box, there's a diagram that would make it seem that there should be
> extra room for something, but I'm guessing it's a diagram of their
> filter for larger tanks, and they use the same diagram for all of
> their boxes. (We have an AquaClear20.) Also, neither pet store had
> the coral lego bricks described by NetMax. I couldn't find them
> online either.
I've been in stores where they have several bulk bins of corals and
other minerals, but it tends to be the more sophisticated stores.
Sometimes people travel between cities to get just what they are
looking for, but fortunately substrate is something you don't need to
purchase frequently. Your local aquarium society may have some leads
for you.
> During my last post I was filled with enthusiasm and hope. It took
> only one visit to a pet store and a phone call to another to take care
> of that.
Most pet shops will have that effect ;~) I think North American pet
shops are behind the times.
> The manager at the chain pet store gave me some information
> that I'd like to run by this group if you don't mind. She said that I
> should never replace the little bag of ceramic rings (looks like white
> stones to me) in the filter. The box says replace every 3 months.
> She said that's where the good bacteria live and I don't want to take
> those out.
Sigh, at least they're trying. My understanding is that these ceramic
cylinders (sintered glass) allow a special bacteria to tunnel in and
break nitrates into nitrogen. These bacteria are not the aerobic
nitrifying bacteria which we harvest in our filters, but an anerobic
bacteria, which are also very useful to have. What I do is to rinse
them well when I service the filter, so the bacteria which have bored
into them can get a supply of nitrates. Along the outside of these
rings is the conventional bio-film aerobic nitrifying bacteria that
you have everywhere (glass, top of the gravel, filter media) in
different concentrations.
> Makes sense. She said, however, I should replace the
> carbon component every month. She didn't say when to replace the
> sponge component. Any thoughts on these ideas?
Much has been written on the use or non-use of carbon. If you want to
use it, then change it when it's saturated (it adsorbs to saturation
within a relatively short period of time, all depending on your water
parameters). I haven't used carbon in 30 years at home, but I would
for special cases or to remove medications. In the store, all our
water was carbon filtered.
In regards to sponge/floss/paper filter media, re-use it until it
falls apart (and this varies from 2 or 3 uses to 25 years depending on
the product). You want to keep it clean enough for water to move
through it, and not so clean that it is sterile. You want the
bacteria on it to stay healthy.
> When I called around looking for coral chunks, the guy at the
> independent pet store said since my tap water was 6.4 pH and my tank
> water (which has been in operation since Jan.) is still 6.4, then I
> didn't need to do anything about the kH. When I asked about the acid
> generated by the nitrogen cycle lowering the pH eventually, he got a
> little irritated and told me about a product called Acid Buffer. I
> looked this up. Here's what the company's literature says:
Pet shop employees are for the most part, extremely well intentioned.
Many of them even own an aquarium, though it's not a legal requirement
for employment. Stores frequently have trouble finding qualified
individuals who will work retail hours and for retail pay. For
accurate information, books, here and many web sites.
Nitrification and fish respiration may not have as much of an
acidifying effect as you might expect in a tank with regular water
changes. However any decaying plant or animal matter will if trapped
in the substrate and left to dacay in a low-kH environment. This is
called OTS or Old Tank Syndrome. The lower your kH, the more
worrisome this is.
Others can jump in and clarify my oversimplifications, or simplify my
technical details. I'm trying to walk a line between too much and too
little info, but it's all a lot to take in to start.
> "Acid Buffer™ is a non-phosphate buffer to lower pH and buffer with
> Alkaline Buffer™. Both buffers are designed for the planted aquarium
> or for very hard water where phosphate buffers may pose an algae or
> cloudiness problem. Acid Buffer™ lowers pH and buffers between 5.0 and
> 8.0 when used with Alkaline Buffer™. As Acid Buffer™ lowers pH it
> converts carbonate alkalinity (KH) into available CO2."
Your solution is to purchase a 2nd filter and put your coral or
minerals in that. Problem solved.
> At this point, I'm ready to give up. I know my pH is already low
> enough, and this sounds way too complicated anyway. The kH test I
> have is part of a master test kit by Mardel. They are strips you dip
> in the water. There's a color for 0 and a color for 80ppm. I get the
> color for zero. But, if it was actually 40ppm, how would I know? For
> the pH, the lowest reading is 6.4, which is the color I get. But, how
> would I know if it goes lower? I got another test yesterday,
> specifically for pH. A drop test. I have not tried it yet. However,
> the lowest reading for this test is 6.0. Does anyone know of better
> tests, which give a wider range and more specific readings?
Strip tests are notoriously inaccurate, but they are cheap. They are
probably not a good value, as you usually want a relatively accurate
measurement. The kH test you want is called a titration test, where a
reagent changes color when your reach the number of drops needed to
indicate the kH level in the water.
> I did read this nice article on water chemistry. (http://www.automatedaquariums.com/tech2o.htm) I'm wondering if I do frequent
> partial water changes (once/week), can I leave my kH alone? I know
> that the cardinals and neons like a low pH and soft water so I don't
> want to change those numbers, which could happen when I'm attempting
> to change the kH.
No problem with that article, though it looks suspiciously like a cut
& paste from the krib. Those fish like low pH but no fish likes pH
which bounces around, so ymmv.
> On the bright side, the chain store had cardinals, neons, and the
> orange von rio flames. No panda corys. They do have spotted corys,
> albino corys, green corys, emerald green corys, and upsidedown
> catfish. The independent shop carries pandas every once in a while,
> but doesn't have them at the moment. I'm not ready for them anyway.
> Would the spotted work if I can't get pandas?
It would depend on what these fish really are. A spotted cory could
be many things. An albino cory is usually a Corydoras paleatus or
Peppered cory. Green and emerald corys might be Corydoras aenus
(which gets as big as the Peppered and a bit big for a 10g) or they
could be Brochis splendens (which are even larger).
some references:
http://www.nettaigyo.com/index-e.html
http://www.scotcat.com/factsheets/brochis_splendens.htm
> As you might be able to guess, I have given up on any thoughts of live
> plants. I just can't handle any more variables right now.
Information overload eh? sorry, my bad
~~
> PM
NetMax
On Mar 13, 12:15 pm, "Gill Passman" <g...@taylorpassman.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mar 13, 1:49 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Well, nothing's ever easy. Especially when you have a 10 gal. tank.
> There is no room in our filter for crushed coral. On the filter's
> box, there's a diagram that would make it seem that there should be
> extra room for something, but I'm guessing it's a diagram of their
> filter for larger tanks, and they use the same diagram for all of
> their boxes. (We have an AquaClear20.) Also, neither pet store had
> the coral lego bricks described by NetMax. I couldn't find them
> online either.
I've been in stores where they have several bulk bins of corals and
other minerals, but it tends to be the more sophisticated stores.
Sometimes people travel between cities to get just what they are
looking for, but fortunately substrate is something you don't need to
purchase frequently. Your local aquarium society may have some leads
for you.
> During my last post I was filled with enthusiasm and hope. It took
> only one visit to a pet store and a phone call to another to take care
> of that.
Most pet shops will have that effect ;~) I think North American pet
shops are behind the times.
> The manager at the chain pet store gave me some information
> that I'd like to run by this group if you don't mind. She said that I
> should never replace the little bag of ceramic rings (looks like white
> stones to me) in the filter. The box says replace every 3 months.
> She said that's where the good bacteria live and I don't want to take
> those out.
Sigh, at least they're trying. My understanding is that these ceramic
cylinders (sintered glass) allow a special bacteria to tunnel in and
break nitrates into nitrogen. These bacteria are not the aerobic
nitrifying bacteria which we harvest in our filters, but an anerobic
bacteria, which are also very useful to have. What I do is to rinse
them well when I service the filter, so the bacteria which have bored
into them can get a supply of nitrates. Along the outside of these
rings is the conventional bio-film aerobic nitrifying bacteria that
you have everywhere (glass, top of the gravel, filter media) in
different concentrations.
> Makes sense. She said, however, I should replace the
> carbon component every month. She didn't say when to replace the
> sponge component. Any thoughts on these ideas?
Much has been written on the use or non-use of carbon. If you want to
use it, then change it when it's saturated (it adsorbs to saturation
within a relatively short period of time, all depending on your water
parameters). I haven't used carbon in 30 years at home, but I would
for special cases or to remove medications. In the store, all our
water was carbon filtered.
In regards to sponge/floss/paper filter media, re-use it until it
falls apart (and this varies from 2 or 3 uses to 25 years depending on
the product). You want to keep it clean enough for water to move
through it, and not so clean that it is sterile. You want the
bacteria on it to stay healthy.
> When I called around looking for coral chunks, the guy at the
> independent pet store said since my tap water was 6.4 pH and my tank
> water (which has been in operation since Jan.) is still 6.4, then I
> didn't need to do anything about the kH. When I asked about the acid
> generated by the nitrogen cycle lowering the pH eventually, he got a
> little irritated and told me about a product called Acid Buffer. I
> looked this up. Here's what the company's literature says:
Pet shop employees are for the most part, extremely well intentioned.
Many of them even own an aquarium, though it's not a legal requirement
for employment. Stores frequently have trouble finding qualified
individuals who will work retail hours and for retail pay. For
accurate information, books, here and many web sites.
Nitrification and fish respiration may not have as much of an
acidifying effect as you might expect in a tank with regular water
changes. However any decaying plant or animal matter will if trapped
in the substrate and left to dacay in a low-kH environment. This is
called OTS or Old Tank Syndrome. The lower your kH, the more
worrisome this is.
Others can jump in and clarify my oversimplifications, or simplify my
technical details. I'm trying to walk a line between too much and too
little info, but it's all a lot to take in to start.
> "Acid Buffer™ is a non-phosphate buffer to lower pH and buffer with
> Alkaline Buffer™. Both buffers are designed for the planted aquarium
> or for very hard water where phosphate buffers may pose an algae or
> cloudiness problem. Acid Buffer™ lowers pH and buffers between 5.0 and
> 8.0 when used with Alkaline Buffer™. As Acid Buffer™ lowers pH it
> converts carbonate alkalinity (KH) into available CO2."
Your solution is to purchase a 2nd filter and put your coral or
minerals in that. Problem solved.
> At this point, I'm ready to give up. I know my pH is already low
> enough, and this sounds way too complicated anyway. The kH test I
> have is part of a master test kit by Mardel. They are strips you dip
> in the water. There's a color for 0 and a color for 80ppm. I get the
> color for zero. But, if it was actually 40ppm, how would I know? For
> the pH, the lowest reading is 6.4, which is the color I get. But, how
> would I know if it goes lower? I got another test yesterday,
> specifically for pH. A drop test. I have not tried it yet. However,
> the lowest reading for this test is 6.0. Does anyone know of better
> tests, which give a wider range and more specific readings?
Strip tests are notoriously inaccurate, but they are cheap. They are
probably not a good value, as you usually want a relatively accurate
measurement. The kH test you want is called a titration test, where a
reagent changes color when your reach the number of drops needed to
indicate the kH level in the water.
> I did read this nice article on water chemistry. (http://www.automatedaquariums.com/tech2o.htm) I'm wondering if I do frequent
> partial water changes (once/week), can I leave my kH alone? I know
> that the cardinals and neons like a low pH and soft water so I don't
> want to change those numbers, which could happen when I'm attempting
> to change the kH.
No problem with that article, though it looks suspiciously like a cut
& paste from the krib. Those fish like low pH but no fish likes pH
which bounces around, so ymmv.
> On the bright side, the chain store had cardinals, neons, and the
> orange von rio flames. No panda corys. They do have spotted corys,
> albino corys, green corys, emerald green corys, and upsidedown
> catfish. The independent shop carries pandas every once in a while,
> but doesn't have them at the moment. I'm not ready for them anyway.
> Would the spotted work if I can't get pandas?
It would depend on what these fish really are. A spotted cory could
be many things. An albino cory is usually a Corydoras paleatus or
Peppered cory. Green and emerald corys might be Corydoras aenus
(which gets as big as the Peppered and a bit big for a 10g) or they
could be Brochis splendens (which are even larger).
some references:
http://www.nettaigyo.com/index-e.html
http://www.scotcat.com/factsheets/brochis_splendens.htm
> As you might be able to guess, I have given up on any thoughts of live
> plants. I just can't handle any more variables right now.
Information overload eh? sorry, my bad
~~
> PM
Altum
On Mar 13, 6:49 am, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, nothing's ever easy. Especially when you have a 10 gal. tank.
> There is no room in our filter for crushed coral. On the filter's
> box, there's a diagram that would make it seem that there should be
> extra room for something, but I'm guessing it's a diagram of their
> filter for larger tanks, and they use the same diagram for all of
> their boxes. (We have an AquaClear20.) Also, neither pet store had
> the coral lego bricks described by NetMax. I couldn't find them
> online either.
Hmmm...maybe it's time for Wonder Shells. There's a very skilled
aquarist named Carl in the group who sells a shell-shaped electrolyte
block that you just drop in the tank. We're naturally skeptical of
anything named "wonder shells" ;-) but Carl runs an aquarium
maintenance business and swears by them. They'll build both KH and
hardness. Here's the link. You would want the plain ones, not the
medicated. http://americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html
> During my last post I was filled with enthusiasm and hope. It took
> only one visit to a pet store and a phone call to another to take care
> of that. The manager at the chain pet store gave me some information
> that I'd like to run by this group if you don't mind. She said that I
> should never replace the little bag of ceramic rings (looks like white
> stones to me) in the filter. The box says replace every 3 months.
> She said that's where the good bacteria live and I don't want to take
> those out. Makes sense. She said, however, I should replace the
> carbon component every month. She didn't say when to replace the
> sponge component. Any thoughts on these ideas?
She's pretty much right. I do replace the ceramic chunks every few
years. Supposedly bio-media lose surface area eventually from getting
covered with bio-film (bacterial slime). When you replace the ceramic
chunks, leave the same bag of carbon and be careful rinsing the sponge
so the filter has enough bacteria to recolonize them. Carbon must be
replaced once a month. The sponge will last for many, many years.
Repace it if it ever falls apart while you're rinsing it.
> When I called around looking for coral chunks, the guy at the
> independent pet store said since my tap water was 6.4 pH and my tank
> water (which has been in operation since Jan.) is still 6.4, then I
> didn't need to do anything about the kH. When I asked about the acid
> generated by the nitrogen cycle lowering the pH eventually, he got a
> little irritated and told me about a product called Acid Buffer. I
> looked this up. Here's what the company's literature says:
>
> "Acid Buffer™ is a non-phosphate buffer to lower pH and buffer with
> Alkaline Buffer™. Both buffers are designed for the planted aquarium
> or for very hard water where phosphate buffers may pose an algae or
> cloudiness problem. Acid Buffer™ lowers pH and buffers between 5.0 and
> 8.0 when used with Alkaline Buffer™. As Acid Buffer™ lowers pH it
> converts carbonate alkalinity (KH) into available CO2."
>
> At this point, I'm ready to give up. I know my pH is already low
> enough, and this sounds way too complicated anyway. The kH test I
> have is part of a master test kit by Mardel. They are strips you dip
> in the water. There's a color for 0 and a color for 80ppm. I get the
> color for zero. But, if it was actually 40ppm, how would I know? For
> the pH, the lowest reading is 6.4, which is the color I get. But, how
> would I know if it goes lower? I got another test yesterday,
> specifically for pH. A drop test. I have not tried it yet. However,
> the lowest reading for this test is 6.0. Does anyone know of better
> tests, which give a wider range and more specific readings?
You'll see many people posting here about how much we hate dip stips.
They're hard to read. Yes, typical bromthymol blue pH tests kits have
a low reading of 6.0. That's fine. You don't want to run your
aquarium below 6.0 becaue the bacteria that break down ammonia won't
live. You may also want a liquid KH kit, although pH and KH are
pretty tightly related if you're not adding stuff like Acid Buffer or
CO2.
> I did read this nice article on water chemistry. (http://www.automatedaquariums.com/tech2o.htm) I'm wondering if I do frequent
> partial water changes (once/week), can I leave my kH alone? I know
> that the cardinals and neons like a low pH and soft water so I don't
> want to change those numbers, which could happen when I'm attempting
> to change the kH.
Did you see the bit in the article about distilled water and pH
shifts? That's going to be your problem. To be honest, we usually
advise people to leave their water alone. However, running a tank
with super-soft water is HARD. You can crash the pH and kill your
biofilter and possibly your fish awfully fast.
You still have a bunch of options, so don't panic. Wonder Shells are
a "set it and forget it" option much like crushed coral. If you want
to have stable, lower pH for neons and cardinals, Seachem has designed
Acid Buffer to use in combination with Alkaline Buffer, and the
combination to hit the pH you want is on their website. The only
disadvantage to the Seachem buffers is that you have to remember to
add them with each water change. You could even use plain old baking
soda. It's not ideal because it adds sodium to the tank, but you
won't get THAT much sodium using baking soda to get to KH 4. Again,
you have to add it at every water change. 1 tsp of baking soda raises
the KH of 30 gallons by 2 degrees, so you'd need no more than 2/3 tsp
in your tank.
BTW, I've got neons doing great and cardinals pretty much adapted to
my pH 7.8, medium-hard tapwater. I have a little trouble with the
cardinals, but it's probalby the GH 15 that's stressing them, not the
pH. You're not going to be anywhere near my water paremeters, even
with crushed coral.
> On the bright side, the chain store had cardinals, neons, and the
> orange von rio flames. No panda corys. They do have spotted corys,
> albino corys, green corys, emerald green corys, and upsidedown
> catfish. The independent shop carries pandas every once in a while,
> but doesn't have them at the moment. I'm not ready for them anyway.
> Would the spotted work if I can't get pandas?
You're talking about fish that can live for up to 10 years. Take your
time shopping for your cories and find ones you REALLY like. My LFS
gets easily a dozen different species at some time or another.
"Emerald green cories" are generally Brochis splendens and they get
kind of big for a 10g tank. Green and albino cories (Corydoras
aeneus) and spotted cories are still bigger than pandas, but suitable
for a 10g tank. A trio would take up about half of your fish budget.
> As you might be able to guess, I have given up on any thoughts of live
> plants. I just can't handle any more variables right now.
Analysis paralysis! It's really not that hard. ;-)
--Altum
Mister Gardener
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:The-Freshwater-
> Aqua...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of NetMax
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 2:09 PM
> To: The Freshwater Aquarium
> Subject: [TFA] Re: Stocking a new 10 gallon tank
>
>
> below, for my 3rd attempt to post the same message!
I've received two - does this mean there is a third copy coming my way?
MG
NetMax
It says the message is posted successfully, but it does not appear
(after waiting an appropriate time for all the electrons to re-align
themselves in Google-world. Then a re-try and the message is in the
list as #35 but there is no number #35 (same for Altum's post). On
the 3rd attempt, I get all three, successful post, a number and it is
there.
I apologise MG. One copy of my diatribe should be enough for
anyone ;~)
~~
On Mar 13, 2:41 pm, "Mister Gardener" <mrgarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
Mister Gardener
You can call me Mister or you can call me MG. I'm not going to quote the
previous messages, my scrolling finger is getting repetitive motion
syndrome. I only have a couple of things to add - -
NetMax said it when he said he never uses carbon in his filters. Netmax is
the most diehard supporter of Aquaclears ever to grace these pages, so I
look to him for the ins and outs of that particular design. I don't use
carbon either, nor do many, many aquarists. The useful life of a load of
activated carbon is a week, two at best. After it is no longer effective as
an adsorber, it provides a good bed for helpful bacteria to colonize, but
you've already got plenty of good places for these bacteria in other parts
of your filter and in the substrate and decorations in your tank. So if the
carbon is not needed, a perfect spot is opened up for a mesh back of crushed
coral.
NetMax and Altum have suggested you may get more reliable test results if
you get rid of the strips and buy a liquid reagent etc etc - but they didn't
tell you what to buy. I use API Freshwater Test Kit - it runs around $20 and
tells you your water's pH, Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates. For $5 you can get
API's GH and KH kit. I have no idea why they are not included in the Master
test kit. Because of their reliability, and affordability, API water test
kits are one of the real workhorses of the industry. Disclaimer: No hobbyist
kit, (affordable) will be as accurate as lab quality tests, but our fish
don't live in a lab, and count-the-drops kits like API are close enough, and
they are consistent.
I've read the various editions of this thread so many times that I've lost
track of the original intent. Is your water 6.4 pH coming straight from the
tap? Is it municipal water? If it is not 6.4 from the tap, how did it get
there? If you are not certain of some or all of your test results, take a
sample of your water to your local fish shop, they will be more than happy
to double check your results. Tell them TFA sent you.
I fear you are becoming a victim of analysis paralysis. There is so much
information out there, and many highly experienced people disagree on one
thing or another, plus there is a good bit of misinformation being published
in books and on the web - and then there are well meaning pet shop employees
that are not on the same page as you . . . somehow I think we may be putting
the buggy before the horse, (I grew up in Amish country). Setting up a 10
gallon aquarium and keeping a dozen popular fish healthy does not need to be
this complicated. 6 or 8 months down the road, a beginner can then choose to
make it more complicated, or stick with the tried and true.
Don't give up. Your frustration is palpable. We want to help.
MG
Mister Gardener
crushed
> coral.
A mesh bag. That makes more sense. Doesn't anyone proofread this stuff?
PM
Thanks to all for talking me off the ledge... :)
I'm glad to know that the carbon component of the filter is not
essential (unless you want to get something like medicine out of the
tank). When NetMax wrote that, I immediately thought about putting
the coral there, and was going to ask about that on my next post, but
thankfully MG saved me the trouble. I'm going out today to get the
test kits recommended by MG or the Nutrafin test kit mentioned by
Gill. I plan to test both my tank water and the water directly from
my tap. (With my current test kit, they both read 6.4 - the lowest
reading on the test strip.) I will also get some crushed coral.
Luckily, the independent pet store sells it by the cup.
Here's the thing...
I read about Old Tank Syndrome a while back, and re-read it after
NetMax's post. Here's the article: www.bestfish.com/oldtank.html. I
had a lot better understanding of it this time around. At least I
hope I do. It leads me to wonder...if I am religious about partial
water changes and vacuuming the gravel, do I still need the coral to
buffer? Although we do not have fish yet, we've been treating the
tank as though we do. We put food in there, do weekly partial water
changes and vacuuming (per the fishless cycling article we read). We
add ammonia daily to simulate the fish. Now I do admit, after the
ammonia and nitrite readings went to zero, we have not been as
faithful about adding food, but we still do the ammonia daily and the
water changes/vacuuming weekly.
If I'm understanding the Old Tank article correctly, since our water
hasn't any buffers, if we let the tank go, our water will become
steadily more acidic i.e., the pH will drop. It sounds like the
danger here isn't so much of a sudden change in pH, but that it
gradually becomes so low (5.5) that it has a detrimental effect on the
bacterial filter and some fish. On the other hand, if the water has
buffers (which ours would by adding coral) and we neglect the tank,
the buffer will eventually be used up resulting in a pH crash. So,
wouldn't we be making it *more* likely for a sudden pH drop since our
pH is naturally low and we'd be raising it artificially with the
coral?
I hope this doesn't come off as argumentative. I'm just trying to
understand. Of course, both of the above scenarios assume a neglected
tank. And we would never do that. :) I guess the question is "how
gradual is gradual?" Without buffers, could the acid accumulate so
fast that the pH would be affected in a a week or two. Or faster? We
don't want to do daily water changes. Someone else told me that
there'd be visual evidence (slime ring around the tank) before the pH
was in danger territory. Is this true?
I know the tetras like a low pH and don't want to raise it if I don't
have to. I know they can tolerant higher, but I'm thinking that
they'd thrive and look really good in the the low pH water. When we
had the Dwarf Gourami, his color became so much more vibrant in our
tank than it was at the store. It was a marked difference. I'm
assuming it was because gouramis do especially well the low pH, soft
water.
By the way, it's not so much the amount of information that leads to
the frustration, but the conflicting information from different
sources. Also, when you can't find the stuff you need or the
limitations of your tank are all conspiring against you, the
frustration starts accumulating like acid in unbuffered water. :) I
actually appreciate the level of detail you've given me. I like
knowing why I'm doing something. As far as the plants go, it's just
another can of worms I'm not ready for yet. Worrying about their
needs and effects on the system is just too much right now. Maybe
down the road if this works out.
Thanks again.
PM
NetMax
Well here's the gist of it. Fish waste (ammonia) is removed either by
bacteria or by plants. The bacteria involved (nitrospira,
nitrobacter, nitrosomonas) start going dormant when the water gets too
acidic, between 6.0 and 6.5pH and they are no longer in the picture at
any levels more acidic than 6.0pH. You don't want to have plants,
so.... the ammonia will simply build up. In will not have a toxic
effect because the toxicity of ammonia (NH3) occurs at higher pHs (7 -
7.4pH). The acidity will hold the ammonia to the non-toxic state of
ammonium ions (NH4).
It's not nice to mess with mother nature, so .... you'll have a
planted tank despite your assertions, and the plant will be algae
(something is going to consume all that tasty NH4). Brush algae,
Staghorn, Beard algae, Diatoms, Hair algae etc etc, you name it.
> If I'm understanding the Old Tank article correctly, since our water
> hasn't any buffers, if we let the tank go, our water will become
> steadily more acidic i.e., the pH will drop. It sounds like the
> danger here isn't so much of a sudden change in pH, but that it
> gradually becomes so low (5.5) that it has a detrimental effect on the
> bacterial filter and some fish. On the other hand, if the water has
> buffers (which ours would by adding coral) and we neglect the tank,
> the buffer will eventually be used up resulting in a pH crash. So,
> wouldn't we be making it *more* likely for a sudden pH drop since our
> pH is naturally low and we'd be raising it artificially with the
> coral?
If you neglect your tank, the non-coral scenario will be less stable,
but you wouldn't neglect your tank anyways ;~) In a zero-buffer tank,
the pH sits on a fence and then falls over. This is why it's called a
pH crash, not a pH drop. In a buffered tank, the downward pressure on
the pH only affects the buffer until it's consumed. Ordinarily,
hobbyists plan their water change routine to keep their buffer from
getting dangerously low. This is actually quite easy on a new tank
with small fish. Where hobbyists get caught is years later, when
their maintenance routines have not kept up with the growth of their
fish ;~(
Also one of the issues is not that the pH is low, but that it 'pops'
up after a water change. Ideally you don't want your pH bouncing
around, so small more frequent water changes will control this.
> I hope this doesn't come off as argumentative. I'm just trying to
> understand. Of course, both of the above scenarios assume a neglected
> tank. And we would never do that. :) I guess the question is "how
> gradual is gradual?" Without buffers, could the acid accumulate so
> fast that the pH would be affected in a a week or two. Or faster?
Without buffers, the drop could/would be very rapid, but you are not
without *any* buffers. Even fish food has calcium carbonates in it,
doesn't it?
No worries on sounding argumentative. Your cause is the health of
your tank and the inhabitants, and you need to be certain of your
understanding. There is no worthier cause that the welfare of the
living things in our care.
> We
> don't want to do daily water changes. Someone else told me that
> there'd be visual evidence (slime ring around the tank) before the pH
> was in danger territory. Is this true?
Nope, not to my knowledge. It doesn't sound very reliable anyways.
> I know the tetras like a low pH and don't want to raise it if I don't
> have to. I know they can tolerant higher, but I'm thinking that
> they'd thrive and look really good in the the low pH water. When we
> had the Dwarf Gourami, his color became so much more vibrant in our
> tank than it was at the store. It was a marked difference. I'm
> assuming it was because gouramis do especially well the low pH, soft
> water.
>
> By the way, it's not so much the amount of information that leads to
> the frustration, but the conflicting information from different
> sources. Also, when you can't find the stuff you need or the
> limitations of your tank are all conspiring against you, the
> frustration starts accumulating like acid in unbuffered water. :) I
> actually appreciate the level of detail you've given me. I like
> knowing why I'm doing something. As far as the plants go, it's just
> another can of worms I'm not ready for yet. Worrying about their
> needs and effects on the system is just too much right now. Maybe
> down the road if this works out.
Personally, I don't think your problem is as bad as you've measured.
I don't trust those test strips at all. Your kH is probably higher
than you think and you have typical soft poorly buffered riverine
water. Some people in your situation put a pinch of baking soda in
their water changes, some put down a calcium-leeching mineral
substrate or rocks in their water column. Some don't do anything and
simply have lots of fast growing plants to suck up the ammonium, and
they rely on their weekly water changes to prop their low buffer up.
The key is to find a solution which fits your lifestyle and
maintenance routine, which results in relatively stable water and then
you buy fish which match the parameters.
Keep in mind that generally, your situation (softwater lacking buffer)
is the 2nd best water to have. The best is a naturally neutral
water. The worse is hardwater, because it's easier to add something
to make neutral water, than it is to try to remove stuff to soften
your water. You have a choice as to how hard to make your water, and
there are a lot of choices for acidic water fishes, which are not
practical for someone like me who has liquid rock for water.
~~
> Thanks again.
> PM
Mister Gardener
what I think I know is that your water is 6.4 from the tap and 6.4 in the
aquarium, to which you are feeding ammonia to support the filter. Has your
pH dropped from 6.4? If so, over how long a period of time? (days, weeks).
If your pH holds steady for 2 or 3 weeks, then you don't really need to add
anything, as long as you do your weekly partial water changes, allowing for
you to slack off and stretch them to every two weeks. The ammonia that you
are feeding your filter simulates a fish load, though probably not the load
of a fully stocked tank. Adding your fish gradually, watching for a
mini-cycle as evidenced by a brief rise in ammonia and/or nitrites, will
allow your bacteria colony to build up so that it can meet the challenge of
increased incoming ammonia.
Knowing what your KH measurement is can be a big help in determining whether
you need to add a buffer to your aquarium water. My own tap water is KH 1 or
less, and my pH was sliding, (as opposed to crashing), in 7-10 days, so I
use crushed coral to keep my pH stabile for 3-4 weeks, if I should ever have
to go that long without water changes.
Include a KH and optionally GH test kit in your shopping, or ask the pet
store to test it for you.
Though I have learned from experience that not all pet shops know what KH
testing is.
MG
PM
What a difference the right test kit can make!
I re-tested my water using drop tests this time, rather than the strip
tests. I believe the results confirm Netmax's suspicions:
Tap Water (filtered)----7.0pH**-----2dKH-----2dGH
Tank Water---------------6.4pH-----1dKH-----3dGH
(**The pH maybe a little over 7.0. The shading between it and the 7.2
was hard to tell.)
So, let me see if I'm understanding what is happening. The buffer is
being used up in my tank so the KH is lower. The water is becoming
more acidic because of the biofilter so the pH is lower. The GH is
higher because of evaporation. Are these right? What's surprising to
me is that my husband does 50 percent water changes every Sunday so I
wouldn't expect the numbers to be so different by Thursday (today).
I'm wondering about the ammonia readings. We've always done a drop
test for that one and the result is zero. Could there be ammonia
accumulating in it's non-toxic state? Would the test pick that up?
I'm definitely adding the crush coral to my filter. Can anyone
recommend an amount? Enough to fill up the space left by the removed
carbon component? Do we need to do a larger water change to get things
back on track? 90 percent?
Those strip tests do appear worthless. I can't believe they're
allowed to sell them.
Also, NetMax, you'll be happy to know that the literature in the KH&GH
test kit said *exactly* the same thing you did about the pH dropping
rapidly in poorly buffered water. That Old Tank Syndrome article I
read specifically used the words "steady decline." Thus, my confusion.
Another thread in this forum caught my eye. It was about water
testing and was started by Kevin I think. It looked like he had
gotten very different results using a drop test too (as opposed to a
strip test). I noticed he let his tap water sit out for 24 hours,
tested it, and the pH was different than when it was fresh from the
faucet. I think I'll try this too and see what happens. Just for
fun.
I appreciate any more help you can give me. I think I see light at
the end of the tunnel.
PM
Mister Gardener
> recommend an amount? Enough to fill up the space left by the removed
> carbon component?
Yes. That would be a good amount to begin with. You'll see some cloudiness
for the first couple of hours, the tank will be clear within 24. Probably
clear in 4, but I'm a conservative in everything except politics.
> Do we need to do a larger water change to get things
> back on track? 90 percent?
50% should be fine. That's what the fish are accustomed to. Then continue
with your weekly Sunday changes.
A KH (or is it kH?) of 3 holds my almost zero from the tap water for 2-3
weeks - I maintain pH 7.0 in my aquariums, which is also the tap water pH.
MG
NetMax
On Mar 15, 5:10 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What a difference the right test kit can make!
>
> I re-tested my water using drop tests this time, rather than the strip
> tests. I believe the results confirm Netmax's suspicions:
>
> Tap Water (filtered)----7.0pH**-----2dKH-----2dGH
>
> Tank Water---------------6.4pH-----1dKH-----3dGH
The number you're missing is the most *important*. The pH after the
tap water has aired out will be your reference (but I read below that
you're doing this). The pH difference between your reference and tap
will be an indication of how much dissolved gases there are, and give
you an idea of how big your water changes can be (too much dissolved
gases and you don't want to do huge water changes). The difference
between your reference and the tank will indicate how much
acidification is going on, and the performance of your buffer.
> (**The pH maybe a little over 7.0. The shading between it and the 7.2
> was hard to tell.)
>
> So, let me see if I'm understanding what is happening. The buffer is
> being used up in my tank so the KH is lower. The water is becoming
> more acidic because of the biofilter so the pH is lower. The GH is
> higher because of evaporation. Are these right? What's surprising to
> me is that my husband does 50 percent water changes every Sunday so I
> wouldn't expect the numbers to be so different by Thursday (today).
> I'm wondering about the ammonia readings. We've always done a drop
> test for that one and the result is zero. Could there be ammonia
> accumulating in it's non-toxic state? Would the test pick that up?
The rate at which you're adding liquid ammonia might be much higher
than the rate for the amount of fish that you would normally have in
the tank. The drop in buffer and pH change might be normal for a tank
of adult Oscars (being simulated by your daily ammonia dosage ;~)
Until you have fish, you won't see the real behavior, but from the tap
levels, we can deduce that some augmenting of the buffer is warranted.
re: ammonia, read the tester instructions to see if it measures only
ammonia (NH3) or both (NH3 and NH4). The NH4 will be the non-toxic
state. I think the AP (1 reagent) measures both and the NutraFin (2
reagents) measures NH3, but I could be mistaken.
> I'm definitely adding the crush coral to my filter. Can anyone
> recommend an amount? Enough to fill up the space left by the removed
> carbon component? Do we need to do a larger water change to get things
> back on track? 90 percent?
The amount is not critical, fill the space. A 90% W/C would be an
excellent idea to reset the system. Leave the filter off and don't
let it drain. After filling with water, hand stir the de-chlor (or
premix the dechlor in a pail). The idea is to not expose the filter
bacteria to the full chlorine or chloramine concentration. Ordinarily
this is not a problem, as a 20% W/C dilutes municipal chlorine to 1/5
of whatever (ie:2ppm) and it works best on bacteria in the water
column (not on surfaces), but why mess with your bacteria culture at
this point (and get your water un-neccesarily cloudy).
> Those strip tests do appear worthless. I can't believe they're
> allowed to sell them.
>
> Also, NetMax, you'll be happy to know that the literature in the KH&GH
> test kit said *exactly* the same thing you did about the pH dropping
> rapidly in poorly buffered water. That Old Tank Syndrome article I
> read specifically used the words "steady decline." Thus, my confusion.
Good to hear : ) By discussing back & forth, our recommendations can
be much better focused on what you need when you need it, as opposed
to a more-static web site.
> Another thread in this forum caught my eye. It was about water
> testing and was started by Kevin I think. It looked like he had
> gotten very different results using a drop test too (as opposed to a
> strip test). I noticed he let his tap water sit out for 24 hours,
> tested it, and the pH was different than when it was fresh from the
> faucet. I think I'll try this too and see what happens. Just for
> fun.
: ) Fun, yes, but a very important number to know. This will become
your reference, your baseline. Anyone asks what your pH is, this will
be it. I call fresh tap pH 'apparent pH', and after 24 hours, 'real
pH'.
> I appreciate any more help you can give me. I think I see light at
> the end of the tunnel.
I'm still not 100% comfortable with your 'filtered' tap water. Maybe
it's just carbon, so it wouldn't affect your kH, gH or pH.
Otherwise, whenever you have questions : )
cheers
~~
> PM
Mister Gardener
> Good to hear : ) By discussing back & forth, our recommendations can
> be much better focused on what you need when you need it, as opposed
> to a more-static web site.
I've been planning to write a message about 2 of the big 3 North American
fish magazines, TFH and FAMA. Their editorials have stated in recent months
that they are making a serious effort to provide more factual,
scientifically sound information, and I have, in fact, seen an improvement
in the credibility of some of their articles. A TFA member pointed out the
excellent article in April's Tropical Fish Hobbyist on Bettas. The April
issue also contains the best article I have ever read on hatching baby brine
shrimp. Overall, TFH and Freshwater and Marine Aquarium magazines have been
improving.
But yesterday I read an article in the April TFH which attempted to list the
similarities in husbandry of "successful " aquarium keepers. (Part One.
Don't miss Part Two in May.) Water changes and all that, yes there are
certain procedures that are common to most successful aquarists. The author
listed, high on the list, the importance of reading. He stated that if there
was only one aquarium book that could be on the shelf, it should be Innes.
Well, we've debated that, but I respect Innes well enough to concede a point
or two on that issue. The author then went on to warn readers about the
internet. Just because a web site is pretty doesn't mean the information is
reliable. Internet chat groups and forums are only as good as the people
participating - as opposed to published books where the information has been
screened by editors for accuracy, (cough cough I cite TFH book The Proper
Care Of Guppies by Stan Shubel as the most vague, disorganized book I own),
and book authors are not afraid to put their real names on the covers. He
seemed to confuse chat rooms and interactive forums such as ours, but when
he wrote "the trashy tabloids of the internet" I about choked on my coffee.
A parenthetical editor's note said that forums sponsored by reputable
magazines such as TFH were good places to go.
Because of my cynical nature, I get a kick out of "anti-snobbery", so with
this in mind, let it be known that I am pleased to be a supporting member of
TFA, the internet's number one trashy tabloid.
MG
ps - In the article about good aquarium keeping, the author stressed the
importance of regular water changes and gravel siphoning, and "while you are
changing the water, clean the filter."
pps - The pictures in Proper Care Of Guppies are gorgeous.
NetMax
think the scepticalaquarist.com, fishbase.org, thekrib and many other
sites are typical. We reference and go to these sites because we've
learned to trust the info there, but they are probably in the minority
when compared to what's out there. As for discussion groups, I feel
lucky to be a part of TFA as there are many knowledgable people here
(instead of the one or two gurus you find in some groups). jmo
~~
On Mar 16, 9:14 am, "Mister Gardener" <mrgarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
Mister Gardener
> lucky to be a part of TFA as there are many knowledgable people here
> (instead of the one or two gurus you find in some groups). jmo
> ~~
We read of "heroes" in the news - I personally believe that every person who
gets out of bed in the morning, gets through their day without causing undo
pain to another, and gets back into bed at night is a hero. I feel the same
about gurus: Every individual has a unique experience and therefore has
something worthwhile to add to our community.
Dentists, by the way, do not fit my definition of hero. They hurt people.
Intentionally.
MG - Missing a few teeth, but the ones that remain are all "hitters."
anglerfishuk
On 16 Mar, 16:50, "Mister Gardener" <mrgarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
> > As for discussion groups, I feel
> > lucky to be a part of TFA as there are many knowledgable people here
> > (instead of the one or two gurus you find in some groups). jmo
> > ~~
I also feel lucky to be part of this awesome community, having
followed this thread , and all the advice & information given , have
also learned a few things, albeit still baffled by some things
lol .
> Dentists, by the way, do not fit my definition of hero. They hurt people.
> Intentionally.
> All Dentists should be made to watch "little shop of horrors " and see what happens to dentist ( very prophetic lol )
> MG - Missing a few teeth, but the ones that remain are all "hitters."
Likewise here too but always got a liquidiser handy :-))))))
PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
Hello everyone. As you may surmise, things aren't going well. I was
just trying to do a pH drop test on the aired-out tap water from
yesterday. It should be simple, right?
Well, here's the story...
I do the test and it looks bluer than yesterday, but I wasn't quite
sure whether it was closer to 7.2 or 7.6. So, I decide to test fresh
tap water for a comparison color. I get the same color as for the
aired out water. Now I'm confused. You may recall that I thought it
was about 7.0 yesterday. Thinking that maybe I was on drugs
yesterday, I decide to get an experienced person to do the test. So,
I take my water sample (the aired-out tap) to the pet store for them
to do a pH test. What do you think they get? No, not even close.
They get a light green color and decree 6.5. I wouldn't have believed
it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. It wasn't anything like the
color I got at home. Then she tested it in the backroom using a meter
(whatever that is). That reading said 6.8 or 6.9. Now I am
thoroughly confused. She thought maybe my test kit was bad. So, I go
back home and test the water in my tank. I know the pH should be low,
and I thought if I got the blue color, it would confirm a bad test
kit. Remember, that I had gotten a reading of 6.4 yesterday. Well
today I got the yellow color meaning 6.0. At this point, I'm thinking
either my pH has crashed and my biofilter is in jeopardy, or my test
kit is only giving extreme results. Back to the pet store I go with
my tank water sample. They get 6.2. There was a slight greeness to
it. Reading these tests must be an art. He got a meter reading of
6.2 as well. I buy a new pH test kit.
With the new test kit, I get 6.4 or 6.5 for the tank water. It was
definitely greener than the tube at the pet store, and definitely not
completely yellow like I had gotten earlier. The aired out water
still seemed at least 7.2 or maybe a little higher.
Those are the numbers. Make of them what you will. Maybe I'm on
drugs today. Or maybe I should be on drugs today. The cap was left
off that old pH test bottle from yesterday's use so maybe that made it
go bad. Or maybe it's because I used the same tubes as I did for the
KH and GH tests yesterday. (Of course, I rinsed them thoroughly.) I
don't know. My husband did the pH tests yesterday. Yeah, I think
I'll blame him. :)
Fortunately, it's so ridiculous that I'm beyond frustration. It just
makes me laugh.
We're actually feeling pretty good because we were able to install the
coral in the filter without incident. Hopefully, this will save our
biofilter. Ammonia is still zero. I'll do another pH test tomorrow on
the tank water. Should be interesting.
(By the way, in regard to the latest posts, I feel very lucky to have
found this community. The people here have been extremely friendly,
knowledgeable, and PATIENT. I guess you have to have the latter
quality to keep fish. ;) )
PM
NetMax
presentable. Your tap is around 7.2 to 7.4. That sounds ideal. Your
tank pH is much lower, but you've been fishless cycling for a while
now, so do a big water change, wait a few days with the coral in the
filter and you're good to go. You probably want to continue adding
ammonia while the pH climbs, so the bacteria 'wake up', and then do
another big water change before adding the fish.
I wouldn't worry too much over the differences in readings, it's not
unusual. There's 'absolute' accuracy and 'relative' accuracy.
Working with 'relatively' cheap home test kits, what we get is known
as relative accuracy. That means that using the same kit at different
times, you'll see how much the water changed (in this case, the pH),
and it will be reasonably accurate as compared to the previous
readings. Relative accuracy is something which is accurate to
itself. Absolute accuracy is something which compares to others as
well as to itself. This can be obtained through labs which have test
equipment which are calibrated to NIST standards once or twice a year.
Fortunately, fish aren't too interested in absolute accuracy either,
so relative accuracy works just fine for 95% of our applications.
~~
On Mar 16, 10:24 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> AAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
PM
NetMax, I'm glad the readings made sense to you. Thanks for guiding
me through this insane process. I forgot to ask you a question about
the water change instructions you gave me earlier. Is it ok to use
water that I just air-out for 24 hours rather than use the water
conditioner? Or do you think it's better to use the conditioner? If
so, can you recommend one?
Just so you know, our filter for our tap is carbon.
PM
PM
with chlorine too? Not sure what my city uses, but I can probably
find out.
PM
Altum
the bases.
If you eventually find out you have chlorine and not chloramine, you
can always switch to Genesis or another nice, cheap thiosulfate
product when you finish up the bottle of AmQuel.
--Altum
Altum
If you happen to live in one of the rare municipalities still using
chlorine, you can aerate the water for 24 hours and it will
dissipate. No treatment is necessary. It's good to have a bottle of
inexpensive sodium thiosulfate water conditioner around in case you
ever need to do a water change and don't have a bucket of water ready.
Unfortunately, many cities use chloramine now. Chloramine is stable
and does not dissipate. When you treat chloramine-containing water
with thiosulfate, ammonia is released into the water and fish do
better if you neutralize that as well. Rather than plain dechlor, use
AmQuel, AmQuel+, AmmoLock, Prime, or any of the ammonia binding water
conditioners. My personal favorite is plain AmQuel.
As for carbon, I wouldn't count on it to remove all the chloramine.
Here's a pretty good article on chlorine, chloramine, and carbon
filtration.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_chlorine.htm
--Altum
Mister Gardener
> can always switch to Genesis or another nice, cheap thiosulfate
> product when you finish up the bottle of AmQuel.
>
> --Altum
I have chlorine only, and I use API Tap Water Conditioner Super Strength,
which also takes care of heavy metals, as do most conditioners. A nice
feature of this product is the concentration - label instructions are 1 ml
per 20 gallons. A 16 ounce bottle, at 5 bucks, is a heckuva good deal.
MG
NetMax
For people who use tap filters, my temptation is to recommend that you
use it, but disregard the filter's effect. Whatever positive action
it performs is bonus, and should not be relied on. You should check
with your municipality at least once (see what their water source is,
water parameters etc), and treat the aquarium water as if the tap
filter was not there.
OT: There's a bit of the 'do what I say and not what I do' in saying
carbon is not wholly effective, but Chuck's article was well balanced
(as they usually are). In a commercial setting, running timed
automatic water changers, a good quality carbon tank (about 2 cubic
feet) will last over a year removing chlorine from chloramine, and the
resulting ammonia through low-flow distribution was just plant
fertilizer. The average hobbyist would not get all the system
parameters correct to make this work at home though, so while the
theory is there, the advice is correct. Speaking of theory, I'd read
that it might be possible to tune a UV to a frequency which will break
down chlorine / chloramine. That's a product that might have
commercial application one day.
~~
On Mar 17, 1:45 am, "Altum" <Pt.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not NetMax, but I can answer this one. :-)
>
> If you happen to live in one of the rare municipalities still using
> chlorine, you can aerate the water for 24 hours and it will
> dissipate. No treatment is necessary. It's good to have a bottle of
> inexpensive sodium thiosulfate water conditioner around in case you
> ever need to do a water change and don't have a bucket of water ready.
>
> Unfortunately, many cities use chloramine now. Chloramine is stable
> and does not dissipate. When you treat chloramine-containing water
> with thiosulfate, ammonia is released into the water and fish do
> better if you neutralize that as well. Rather than plain dechlor, use
> AmQuel, AmQuel+, AmmoLock, Prime, or any of the ammonia binding water
> conditioners. My personal favorite is plain AmQuel.
>
> As for carbon, I wouldn't count on it to remove all the chloramine.
> Here's a pretty good article on chlorine, chloramine, and carbon
> filtration.http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_chlorine.htm
>
> --Altum
>
> On Mar 16, 8:50 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > NetMax, I'm glad the readings made sense to you. Thanks for guiding
> > me through this insane process. I forgot to ask you a question about
> > the water change instructions you gave me earlier. Is it ok to use
> > water that I just air-out for 24 hours rather than use the water
> > conditioner? Or do you think it's better to use the conditioner? If
> > so, can you recommend one?
>
> > Just so you know, our filter for our tap is carbon.
>
> > PM- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
PM
Here's one I haven't seen mentioned before: Sodium Hypochlorite.
That's what two of the three water treatment plants use for
disinfection in my location. The third uses chlorine. I'm pretty
sure we get our water from the chlorine plant--at least most of the
time. I can't be sure it's 100% of the time until I call on Monday.
Has anyone here had to deal with sodium hypochlorite? It may not even
a problem for me, but I'm kinda curious anyway since I haven't seen it
come up before. Ok, really I just want to see if I can stump you
guys. ;)
PM
Mister Gardener
It is also used in dentistry, during root canal treatment, disinfecting the
canal and dissolving any remaining pulp tissue.
Not only do dentists inflict pain, they pour bleach in your mouth.
Dentists. May a giant pl*co suck out their fillings.
MG
Altum
chlorinating water. If they're not adding ammonia after the
hypochlorite step to make chloramines, thiosulfate will work fine.
--Altum
Skip
creatures in your tank? That poor boy, still waiting for his fish.
I'm all for preparation and knowledge, but there comes a time where
you just gotta say "Punt" and wing it. Get some danios, get some
tetras, a couple shrimp and pretty green plant and voila, Aquarium.
But that's just me.
PM
LOL, Skip. "Sweet Guppies"--that's great.
I know, I know. I can't believe how long this is taking! Just when I
think we're ready for fish, some natural diaster occurs in the tank.
Now it's brown spots on the glass. I don't understand why there are
brown spots on the glass. I'm mean the ammonia and nitrites have been
zero ever since our tank cycled. My husband does water changes every
Sunday, and yet there are brown spots on our glass and on a silk
plant. I've got the coral in there. I got our numbers up to 7.6 pH,
3 dKH, 5 dGH. And still we cannot get fish because THERE ARE BROWN
SPOTS ON OUR TANK!!!! I mean once the fish get in there, it's going
to be even harder to clean off the brown spots. We did a 50% water
change this evening, and wiped the spots off with a paper towel, but
who knows how long that will last. At first I thought they were our
son's finger prints, but today when I saw the tank, the "fingerprints"
had turned brown. And when I couldn't wipe them off, I realized they
were on the inside.
Really, I don't know. I'd love to wing it and get some fish. I
really, really want to get the fish. I don't think the universe wants
us to have fish. I envy the people that just get the fish, throw them
in some water straight from the tap, and everything just works out and
they live happily ever after.
It doesn't seem like it should be this hard. And yet...there are
brown spots on our tank.
PM
NetMax
biotope filled with lots of little things which grow brown (diatoms or
red algae), green (algae), black (algae, molds), blue (cynobacteria),
grey (fungus) etc etc. It's nature :o)
~~
Altum
tanks and completely harmless. They'll pass. Other algaes will
appear.
How does having fish make it harder to clean the glass?. Get an algae
scrubber pad, stick your clean hand in the tank and scrub. Stuff will
come off the glass; the filter will catch it. Your fish will be
briefly bothered by your hand but will resume their normal activities
within minutes after you're done. Heck - you barely even get wet in a
10 gallon.
Go get some fish!!!
--Altum
Skip
envelops my tank about once a month? It looks like a giant green lace
doily pasted on to one wall of the tank, and then it disappears. All
in the span of maybe 24 hours. The fish, they don't seem to mind.
But seriously, just do it.Nature is funny, it will find a balance in
there. Sure you can help it, but you can't micromanage it to death.
Some fish, a live plant or two, some water, some light and some food.
The rest, as they say, is gravy.
dmun...@gmail.com
We have had great success with the following inhabitants in our 12
gallon Eclipse:
4 dwarf corys
5 rummy-nose tetras
3 platys - including two beautiful orange/red micky mouse ones which
might help with the desire to name fish "goldie" although ours are
named "Chandler" "Monica" and "Rachel"
our latest challenge is what to do with the platy fry - :-) - we have
been able to pull out one small platy fry before it became a snack for
the other inhabitants and he?she? has been in a 3 Gallon Eclipse for
about two weeks. He's about the cutest thing I have ever seen
We are double filtering the 12 gallon, supplementing the built in with
a hydro sponge filter - which allowed be to instantly cycle the
nursery tank.
On Mar 7, 6:19 pm, "PM" <paul.mercu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> We got our 6 year old son a 10 gal. tank for Christmas. On the advice
> of local pet stores we started with 1 dwarf gourami, 3 rosy barbs, and
> a female beta, but that experiement blew up quickly (barbs were at
> each other constantly and the gourami wouldn't leave the betta alone).
> Fortunately, we were able to return the fish to the store and start
> over from scratch. We really would like to create a nice and healthy
> environment for our fish.
>
> Since then, we have been doing many, many hours of research. We read
> about, and have completed fishless cycling. The water is ready to
> go. That was the easy part. Unfortunately, the more we read, the
> more it seems that stocking a 10 gal. tank is nearly impossible. Fish
> that are small enough tend to be schooling fish and must have 5 or
> more, which pushes the limits of our tank -- especially if we add a
> scavenger fish to help keep the tank clean. And the scavenger fish
> (corys) apparently are schooling fish too! So, there's definitely not
> enough room for everyone in our 10 gal. tank. Also, I've read that a
> tank should have an algae eater too. You see the problem.
>
> Since getting a larger tank isn't an option for now, I would really
> appreciate any feedback or recommendations on our stocking plan before
> we implement it. I know the following combos are not ideal, but I'm
> wondering if they're the best that can be achieved with our less than
> ideal tank size. They are:
>
> 5 glo-lite tetra
>
> or
>
> 3 male fancy guppies
>
> or
>
> 3 female bettas
>
> Do we absolutely need a scavenger and/or algae eater for the tank?
> Any suggestions for some that would work with one of the above
> combinations? We have gravel in our tank and some plastic plants if
> that makes any difference (which I'm sure it does). Also, if you have
> a suggestion about another completely different combination, we like
> to know that as well. We just want happy fish (and a happy 6 year
> old).
>
> Thanks so much.
> PM
dmun...@gmail.com
weekly.
Mister Gardener
Your success story has made this thread double fun.
MG
Mister Gardener
> weekly.
I just finished giving all of my babies their evening bath. Which means
80-90% water changes on 5 tanks - and I can't take shortcuts like using a
python because the hundreds of babies aren't very good at staying out of the
way of the siphon. I'm learning to use buckets again, what a drag. Maybe
when the weather warms and we get our 6 weeks of summer I'll siphon out the
window and fill from a hose coming back in the window. There are water pipes
and drain pipes directly below my fish room - the temptation to tap into
them is growing . . . . . just cut out a chunk of the floor here and another
chunk over there . . . maybe this is what people mean when they warn that
keeping fish can be hard on the structure of a house.
MG
NetMax
the stairs to the tank? That's what I do. Attach a sponge on the
tank end & submerse it. Go downstairs and turn on the water for
enough time to fill the hose. Crimp hose, disconnect from faucet,
clamp to the side of the sink and uncrimp (instant drain, so python,
no fry). Crimp the hose upstairs, when moving from tank to tank.
~~
On Mar 21, 8:08 pm, "Mister Gardener" <mrgarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
PM
Big News: We've got fish!!!
It took a while since my last post because I got sick and could barely
get out of bed. But
finally today we were able to make it to the LFS, and my son picked
out 5 cardinals. They
look beautiful in the tank. I'm crossing my fingers because I know
cardinals aren't that
great at handling transitions, but so far they look pretty happy. The
pH is higher than
they like (7.6), but it should stay steady.
We got a little of the pet store water in our water because there was
a tiny leak in the
bag. I was thinking of swapping the coral out of our filter and
running carbon in it for a
day or two to clear out any yucky stuff from the store. Any opinions
on this idea?
After a week or so, we were planning on going back to the store for
5-7 more cardinals OR 5
von rio flames. I'm letting my son decide. Then, in a month or so,
if the other store gets
some in, we want to add 3 panda cories. (I believe this was the timing
recommended by NetMax
earlier in this thread.)
No plants yet. Maybe down the road if all goes well. There's one
I've had my eye on. It's
called Red L...something. Can't remember the name.
Thanks so much again to everyone for helping me get our tank
together. I have really been
knocked out by the level of knowledge, friendliness, and geniune
caring of the people in
this forum. Good for a laugh or two as well.
PM
Altum
the cardinals work out for you. I love cardinals - they're so
colorful. They're touchy for the first week or two, but if they've
colored up and are eating well, it's a very good sign. They eat very
lightly so be careful not to overfeed. Mine love small foods like
frozen daphnia.
Is red ludwigia the plant? Hard to know if you can grow it or not but
it shouldn't be expensive to try a bunch and see. Just net out the
leaves if it falls apart and watch the filter for clogging. I've been
netting out Rotala spp. magenta leaves from my 10g tank for weeks
now. Not quite enough light or something. *grumble*
--Altum
NetMax
of pet shop water. The fish were wet when they went in too ;~) I'd
probably wait a couple of weeks before adding more. Let things
balance a bit.
~~
Skip
time with it. Update us with pics and whatnot when you can.