Beginner's water chemistry issue.; Tank seems to be cycling
fbh...@gmail.com
Apologies if I have battered you with my neophyte confusions. My 10
gallon tank with plastic plants and 6 tetras has taken aeons (3 months)
to cycle, but it sort of seems to be cycling.
The Nitrite today, after getting as high as almost 1 ppm was at zilch.
The nitrate was 5 ppm.
These seem to be positive readings, since I waited forever for the
nitrite to come down. The only problem is that the Ammonia is still at
between 1 and 2 ppm. Why?
I use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit, which one poster to the Usenet
group said always threw a false positive ammonia.
Is the absence of nitrite a clue that my tank is cycled, despite the
high ammonia reading? I fead the fish once every other day.
In brief, when can I add more fish without endangering them?
Cheers (and thanks for this troll-free group),
Fred
Mr Gardener
> The nitrate was 5 ppm.
>
> These seem to be positive readings, since I waited forever for the
> nitrite to come down. The only problem is that the Ammonia is still at
> between 1 and 2 ppm. Why?
I'll begin by asking the most obvious question. Have you used Amquel, which
is famous for giving false ammonia positives on the API kits? I think the
API kit starts at .25, then .50, so you're probably not just having
difficulty discerning the color changes. They're pretty subtle at the low
end.
MG
fbh...@gmail.com
I have not used any water chem altering products except AquaSafe to
dechlorinate.
Maybe the ammonia-philic bacteria just have a back-log? If the water
stays at 1-2 ppm ammonia tommorrow I will water change 25%.
Cheers,
Fred
Altum
ammonia test. Treat both distilled water and tap water with AquaSafe
and test for ammonia.
Postive on both: The AquaSafe is directly interfering with the test
kit.
Negative on both: There is still ammonia in your tank.
Negative on distilled water and positive on tap water: The test kit is
measuring "safe", neutralized ammonia from chloramines in your tap
water. (this is common)
-Altum
Tynk
I agree with both Gill and Altum.
fbh...@gmail.com
Sorry for not taking your earlier advice. I did test my tap water
tested with AquaSafe and it came up negative. I have not yet been able
to get to the store and get distilled water to test, but I wonder what
that would prove if my tap water tests negative.
I'm thinking the bacteria just need to catch up with the ammonia load.
Thanks again for all of your patient, extremely helpful advice.
(Gratitude to the others as well!)
Cheers,
Fred
Altum
you don't have enough bio-media in the filter. Is there space to add a
chunk of sponge or some bio-beads to give the bacteria more surface
area?
Mister Gardener
readings for ammonia when tested with "certain test kits", along with a
list of which test kits are known to be affected.
MG
fbh...@gmail.com
This filter, a Bio-Whisper which we discussed before, has a bio-bag.
There does seem to be room to wedge a small sponge in the filter area.
I have a sponge from my aquarium scraper thingy that I never use, that
is small, tightly-pored and would probably fit. Or is there a special
sponge I should get?
This filter is sold as part of a starter set, but maybe it isn;t the
greatest model.
Fred
fbh...@gmail.com
You know, as I was making lunch for my two tots, I was pondering this
situation, and was going to ask A) what is the absolute best,
chemistry-wise, reliability-wise test kit people recommend, and B)
since I do recall someone on the newsgroup mentioning they had problems
with the same Aquarium Pharm throwing false positives for ammonia, is
there a guide to such problematic test kits? I believe I really do
have some ammonia in my tank. I would just like to be more certain of
the test accuracy. Particularly for a beginner trying to cycle a tank,
who reads all the docs that state ammonia should go to zero.
Fred
Altum
> This filter, a Bio-Whisper which we discussed before, has a bio-bag.
> There does seem to be room to wedge a small sponge in the filter area.
> I have a sponge from my aquarium scraper thingy that I never use, that
> is small, tightly-pored and would probably fit. Or is there a special
> sponge I should get?
Try your scraper sponge and see what happens. Sometimes a really
tightly pored sponge slows down water flow too much. Watch to see
whether it traps too much fine debris too. I usually buy an Aquaclear
refill when I want a block of open cell sponge to stick in a filter or
over an intake. They come in lots of sizes and don't clog too fast.
--Altum
Altum
The most common problem is a strong false positive when you use an
ammonia binding chemical or chloramine treatment like AmQuel, AmmoLock,
Prime, or AquaSafe and a nessler test kit. Salicylate ammonia kits are
usually OK. In the past few years, many manufactures have switched
their kits from nessler to salicylate because of the problem and
growing number of municipalities using chloramine.
Nessler kits have a clear to yellow or orange-yellow color change and
usually only one chemical to mix with the water. They're fast and very
easy to read. Salicylate kits have a yellow to green color change and
typically have two separate chemicals. You have to wait for the color
to develop. IMO they're a bit harder to read, especially at the low
end.
Rather than assembling a list, It's easier to assume you need a
salicylate kit if you use an ammonia binding chemical. Doublecheck
your kit and water conditioner by treating tap water and then testing
it. If you have chloramines, there will be bound ammonia in the tap
water in a fish-safe form. The kit should read zero if it's compatible
with the water conditioner. If it reads positive for ammonia, add
another dose of water conditioner and test once more - it's possible
you didn't bind all the ammonia the first time. Still positive, and
your kit is not compatible with the water treatment.
--Altum
Mr Gardener
> This filter, a Bio-Whisper which we discussed before, has a bio-bag.
> There does seem to be room to wedge a small sponge in the filter area.
> I have a sponge from my aquarium scraper thingy that I never use, that
> is small, tightly-pored and would probably fit. Or is there a special
> sponge I should get?
>
> This filter is sold as part of a starter set, but maybe it isn;t the
> greatest model.
I recently discovered in a thread with another member that some of the starter kits are sticking in Whispers that are very outdated and inadequate. All standalone whisper hang on back power filters come with a bio-sponge, in it's own little plastic holder. This bio sponge can be purchased as an upgrade to older whispers for about three dollars. The Whisper filter with sponge is officially called the Whisper Triad. I can not believe the starter kit Whispers are too cheap to throw in the sponge - it's bad advertising for Whisper. The whisper upgrade sponge is approximately the same size and shape as your biobag, and slips into the space between your bio bag and the aquarium. Or for 15-20 bucks you can buy a whole new Whisper, or Aquaclear with all the parts you need. Avoid Whispers with the word "Economy" in their name. You may have gotten the impression from another thread I was in today that I am a big Whisper user, but their practice of selling there economy jobbies is really ticking me off. Drs Foster & Smith has the best info and pictures and parts for Whispers. BTW,I'm speaking web prices always, Pet store prices are usually quite inflated. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3643&Ntt=whisper%20power%20filter&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=2004&Nty=1
Be sure to click on the “More Information” box for details.
fbh...@gmail.com
Mr Gardener wrote:
> I recently discovered in a thread with another member that some of the
> starter kits are sticking in Whispers that are very outdated and inadequate.
> All standalone whisper hang on back power filters come with a bio-sponge, in
> it's own little plastic holder. This bio sponge can be purchased as an
> upgrade to older whispers for about three dollars. The Whisper filter with
> sponge is officially called the Whisper Triad. I can not believe the starter
> kit Whispers are too cheap to throw in the sponge - it's bad advertising for
> Whisper. The whisper upgrade sponge is approximately the same size and shape
> as your biobag, and slips into the space between your bio bag and the
> aquarium.
We have exchanged info before on the particular Whisper I own. The
claim is that the *frame" of the bio-bag is etched enough to provide
suitable footholds for bacterial colonies.
I'm thinking that that is a somewhat inflated notion at this point. A
sponge, with its extensive surface area, seems the more proper basis.
I may just have to research a bit more, pass out of utter newbie-dom,
and buy a better filter, ultimately. Meanwhile I need to let this tank
cycle so...I'm going to test the water today and if the ammonia is not
totally diminishing, I'll add a sponge.
Thanks again,
Fred
fbh...@gmail.com
Altum wrote:
> Mister Gardener wrote:
> > I would love to see a list of which water conditioners cause false
> > readings for ammonia when tested with "certain test kits", along with a
> > list of which test kits are known to be affected.
> >
> > MG
>
> Nessler kits have a clear to yellow or orange-yellow color change and
> usually only one chemical to mix with the water. They're fast and very
> easy to read. Salicylate kits have a yellow to green color change and
> typically have two separate chemicals. You have to wait for the color
> to develop. IMO they're a bit harder to read, especially at the low
> end.
>
I guess my Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kit is a salicylate kit then,
because I add 8 drops from one bottle and 8 drops from another into the
test tube and shake and wait 5 mins to see how green it gets. The
stick tests I have lack an ammonia measure at all.
Yellow being zero, which is what my tap is, even with AquaSafe.
Cheers,
Fred
Mr Gardener
Ah. A man who knows his place.
Some of our more chemistry savvy people should have the answers for us
shortly. But I fear that the better the test kit, the higher the price, and
they can get pricey. Your Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master Freshwater Kit
(did I guess correctly?), is probably the most commonly used kit among the
members of this group, myself included, alongside dipstick tests. Absolute
zero is what cycled aquarium water should be, but I have never been able to
tell the difference on my API color card between 0 and .25 ppm. Sometimes it
shows a color that is similar to nothing on the card. I have only used
Amquel in my QT tanks, where I do 50% water changes daily. My main display
tanks get nothing but the very basic Tap Water Conditioner from API. Since I
don't have chloramines in my water, I can use it at a very low dose and it
is effective. (With chloramines, the label says to double the dose.) Label
directions are "1 cc per 20 gallons for chlorine and heavy metals". A 16
ounce bottle is cheap and lasts a verrrry long time. Back to the topic,
ammonia readings. My display tanks never show a true zero, but I am
comfortable that I have no ammonia. Perhaps someday someone will buy me a
really classy test kit, but I won't count on it. The water company guy is a
friend of mine, (small towns are good that way), maybe I'll ask him if he
will test a sample from my aquariums.
I just realized that my dechlor conditioner is from API, and my test kit
that gives false ammonia readings is API. I wonder if that means anything.
MG
Mr Gardener
> usually only one chemical to mix with the water. They're fast and very
> easy to read. Salicylate kits have a yellow to green color change and
> typically have two separate chemicals. You have to wait for the color
> to develop. IMO they're a bit harder to read, especially at the low
> end.
The common API kits go from yellow to green and require 8 drops each from
two bottles and wait 5 minutes.
> Rather than assembling a list, It's easier to assume you need a
> salicylate kit if you use an ammonia binding chemical.
Which sounds like the API kit. And I ass u me d that the API kit was the one
that gave false positives. Hmmmm. This is a whole new ball of . . . (can't
say that on a family forum)
As I stated somewhere else, I don't have chloramines so never use an ammonia
binding product except in my fry tanks. But I never get a true "Yellow" zero
from my API kits in any of my tanks, fry or display. And yes, they are
difficult to discern, the colors are different even under sunlight, as API
recommends, at different times of the day. I've learned to accept
"yellowish" as zero.
MG
fbh...@gmail.com
Mr Gardener wrote:
> The common API kits go from yellow to green and require 8 drops each from
> two bottles and wait 5 minutes.
>
> > Rather than assembling a list, It's easier to assume you need a
> > salicylate kit if you use an ammonia binding chemical.
>
> Which sounds like the API kit. And I ass u me d that the API kit was the one
> that gave false positives. Hmmmm. This is a whole new ball of . . . (can't
> say that on a family forum)
>
I do indeed use the API kit (have broken one of the four test tubes and
don't really test pH or High pH). Tonight, as in 10 minutes ago, the
ammonia was definitely 2.0 ppm, the nitrite was 0 ppm, and the nitrate
was 5 ppm. The colors are sometimes hard to read but these were pretty
clear matches.
I added the sponge I have, sliding it behind the bio-bag, and observed
no appreciable decrease in flow--although I will monitor it very very
carefully. I didn't do a water change and didn't feed the fish. I
will check ammonia again tomm and if it is down I guess that will be
cause for relief. If it is the same then I will be further mystified.
Fred
fbh...@gmail.com
finality next week.
Mr Gardener
> no appreciable decrease in flow--
It could be going around the sponge or through it. Who knows.
>I didn't do a water change and didn't feed the fish.
You will get up early and do one in the morning, right? And I would
recommend 40 or 50 %.
>I will check ammonia again tomm and if it is down
It won't be. Wanna bet? (I hope I lose. It's only virtual money anyhow.)
MG - High stakes gambler
fbh...@gmail.com
Mr Gardener wrote:
> It won't be. Wanna bet? (I hope I lose. It's only virtual money anyhow.)
>
> MG - High stakes gambler
OK Then, WHY!!!!!???
What do I have to do to get some answer about this? I change water, I
feed sparsely, I use the API test kit. I read all of your
well-written docs at "the krib." I have 5 small fish in a ten gallon
tank. Why Why why is it taking so long to cycle it? You guys have
your knowledge and then you say something pretty cassandrish like it
will still be ammoniac tomorrow.
I've busted my ass trying to do it right. Fine. If tomorrow I still
have ammoinia, you win.
How can I fix it and what is the problem?
Fred
fbh...@gmail.com
I'm sorry I posted a somewhat heated response. I am getting quite
frustrated :(
And any of my frustration was not directed at any of you great
advisers.
Fred
Frank
>I'm going to test the water today and if the ammonia
Get some *established* filter media from your LPS to add to your
filter's box. Get enough, your cycle is over........... Frank
Mister Gardener
was getting in my way - yesterday morning I threw in the towel and gave
up on trying to stabilize the water chemsitry in three 10 gallon tanks
which I had been fighting with for only 2 weeks.
I just went back and read the entire thread from when your nitrites
dropped to zilch and your nitrAte was up, but your ammonia persisted.
You use plastic plants, which by now should have some bacteria living
on them as well as the rest of your tank. At the time, you were only
feeding once every other day. Have you increased the feeding since that
time? I would have been feeding small amounts twice daily, but there
are so many views on this that I accept no single "rule", like don't
feed, or feed once daily, or over feed etc. I would have done water
changes if my ammonia got too high before the nitrites appeared. And I
would have breathed a sigh of relief when the nitrites showed up. And
then dropped to zilch. And with Nitrates now up, I would be tearing my
hair out if my ammonia was still reading that high. I would be adding a
cup of gravel from an established tank, I would be taking a sample of
my water to my lfs to test with a different test kit. And if this was
my only tank, I would ask him for a cup of gravel from one of his
tanks. You're doing everything I would be doing, except the feeding.
Have you increased the feeding since you got past the nitrite stage?
This would be neither right nor wrong, IMHO, just want to know. I read
a suggestion recently for a stubborn fish store who won't give up a cup
of gravel - offer to buy a bag of gravel matching any of the gravel in
his tanks, and trade a cup of his ripe gravel for the whole new bag of
gravel. If you don't like the color, keep in in a cup in your tank so
you can remove it later. The other thing I would be doing from the
beginning is keeping a handful of water sprite or hornwort in the tank,
fast growing, ammonia sucking, floating plants. They don't require high
tech lighting, though they do require at least a flourescent tube in a
10 gal.
Please accept my apology again - my sarcasm was not intended to hurt or
raise anger. And puleeeze let us know how your tank is doing today and
what you lfs sees when he tests your water - his advice would be
interesting to hear about as well.
Good Luck.
MG
Mr Gardener
> advisers.
Our great advice is not getting your tank cycled, so at the moment, it is
not so great. But we'll keep plugging away with you until you've got a
cycled tank.
MG
fbh...@gmail.com
Mister Gardener wrote:
> Sorry about that - I deserved the tongue lashing. My own frustration
> was getting in my way - yesterday morning I threw in the towel and gave
> up on trying to stabilize the water chemsitry in three 10 gallon tanks
> which I had been fighting with for only 2 weeks.
>
> Please accept my apology again - my sarcasm was not intended to hurt or
> raise anger. And puleeeze let us know how your tank is doing today and
> what you lfs sees when he tests your water - his advice would be
> interesting to hear about as well.
>
> Good Luck.
>
> MG
Absolutely no worries. I was just unfortunately allowing my
frustration to get the better of me.
As for feedings, I have not yet gone to two a day, but I generally feed
enough so that the 6 little fish can eat all or most of it, once a day
(Tetramin flakes). I watch the ammonia and if it is high I will do a
25% water change and/or not feed. I'll visit the LFS later this week
and will test myself later today, and cross my fingers that the ammonia
is, say, below 1 ppm.
I find it frustrating that the tank has taken so long, and know that
there are certain things (like getting gravel or media from an
established tank, as many of you, and Frank recently suggested) that
would have accelerated the process. Still, all the docs seem to
suggest that one can do it from "scratch" as it were. Despite the
frustration, I am excited to be learning so much, and was even today
pondering my next, undoubtedly larger tank. :)
Cheers,
Fred
NetMax
read all the related posts), but I caught something about your having
nitrates (NO3), zero nitrites (NO2) and ammonia (NH3 or NH4). To have
NO3 with no NO2 means that the tank cycled to whatever static bioload
was in the tank. It doesn't sound like you have added fish, so
presuming the fish are all alive and well (breathing and eating adds
NH3/4 to the water) your bioload has remained static.
To now measure NH3/4 again means one of several things has happened.
1) the nitrifying bacteria colony was severely damaged (was the filter
left off, was the sponge changed etc?). If this is the case, the
bacteria should bounce back quickly.
2) your municipality has started adding chloramines (which leave you
with approx 1ppm NH3/4 on a 1/3 water change of 5ppm chloramines).
Something to bind the ammonia would solve the problem.
3) your pH is low (acidic) or unstable. Ammonia (NH3) is toxic and in
the highest concentration at above 7.2-7.4pH iirc. Ammonium Ions (NH4)
is non-toxic and in higher concentration when the water is acidic
(<7.0pH). At the midpoint, any ammonia/ammonium in the water splits
itself equally between the toxic NH3 and the non-toxic NH4. If you
water's pH is low, all this ammonium you are worried about is
non-toxic.
With live plants, NH3 and NH4 is consumed. Without live plants, your
bacteria consume both, but go dormant when the water is too acidic
(fortunately the ammonia is mostly in the nontoxic NH4 ammonium ion
state). The problem comes when the water's pH bounces up and the
ammonium goes toxic (NH4 to NH3) faster than the bacteria colony wakes
up.
Hope something there helps. A sprig of floating Hornwort can do
wonders as well. Otherwise, hang in there. When I operated a fish
dept, I actually had customers do a jig in the hallway when their water
tests showed their tank was cycled and stable. Good luck : )
fbh...@gmail.com
NetMax wrote:
> Hi Fred, my apologies if I repeat anything already mentioned (I haven't
> read all the related posts), but I caught something about your having
> nitrates (NO3), zero nitrites (NO2) and ammonia (NH3 or NH4). To have
> NO3 with no NO2 means that the tank cycled to whatever static bioload
> was in the tank. It doesn't sound like you have added fish, so
> presuming the fish are all alive and well (breathing and eating adds
> NH3/4 to the water) your bioload has remained static.
The fish seem very happy and have never shown any outward signs of
stress. I do have a high pH (7.6), which I now understand makes the
ammonia more toxic (or at least the un-ionized form?). I haven't added
any fish, hoping to do things correctly and have a proper home for the
new tank-dwellers when the time is right.
> To now measure NH3/4 again means one of several things has happened.
> 1) the nitrifying bacteria colony was severely damaged (was the filter
> left off, was the sponge changed etc?). If this is the case, the
> bacteria should bounce back quickly.
The filter has been in continuous operation since I got the tank setup
back in March.
I have been through the brown algae phase, and some slight cloudiness.
Presently the water is clear and the tank looks quite good. i did add
a small sponge that I took from my aquarium scraper: it's about half
and inch thiick and 2 X 3. It seems to fit nicely in my filter box
(Whisper) and does not in the slightest impede flow. I wonder why it
should be necessary to rig it like that, but I will watch it. (Added
this sponge only yesterday, and it was clean and rinsed, so it is not a
factor, at least yet, in the chemistry).
>
> 2) your municipality has started adding chloramines (which leave you
> with approx 1ppm NH3/4 on a 1/3 water change of 5ppm chloramines).
> Something to bind the ammonia would solve the problem.
I have a full chemistry report from the city (chicago). I can't see
where chloramines are mentioned. The ammonia is 0.04 mg/L. Chloride
is 14.8 mg/L. Free chlorine residual is 7.41 mg/L.
> 3) your pH is low (acidic) or unstable. Ammonia (NH3) is toxic and in
> the highest concentration at above 7.2-7.4pH iirc. Ammonium Ions (NH4)
> is non-toxic and in higher concentration when the water is acidic
> (<7.0pH). At the midpoint, any ammonia/ammonium in the water splits
> itself equally between the toxic NH3 and the non-toxic NH4. If you
> water's pH is low, all this ammonium you are worried about is
> non-toxic.
pH is around 7.6 to 7.8 depending on the test. The water is very hard.
> With live plants, NH3 and NH4 is consumed. Without live plants, your
> bacteria consume both, but go dormant when the water is too acidic
> (fortunately the ammonia is mostly in the nontoxic NH4 ammonium ion
> state). The problem comes when the water's pH bounces up and the
> ammonium goes toxic (NH4 to NH3) faster than the bacteria colony wakes
> up.
I most definitely plan to do live plants once I get more experienced.
> Hope something there helps. A sprig of floating Hornwort can do
> wonders as well. Otherwise, hang in there. When I operated a fish
> dept, I actually had customers do a jig in the hallway when their water
> tests showed their tank was cycled and stable. Good luck : )
>
> www.netmax.tk
A very helpful and educational post, as seems to be the norm in this
great forum :)
Thanks!
Fred
fbh...@gmail.com
Ammonia was between 1 and 2 ppm, nitrite 0 ppm and nitrate 5 ppm. The
nitrite and nitrate readings were confirmed with a stick test. So I
still have my ammonia.
Fred
Mr Gardener
To the tune of the Mexican hat dance -
Ammonia, Ammonia, Ammonia,
Get Off! Get Off! Get Off!
(repeat as needed)
NetMax
your only natural ammonia consuming plant right now. I tend to culture
algae into types and locations I don't mind. If you remove all the
algae, frequently another arrives, so instead of striving for no algae,
I just wait until one comes along that I can tolerate ;~)
You mentioned stick tests. Test method can sometimes skew results.
Perhaps stopping by your LFS to have them test for ammonia might shed
more light on the subject. It is possible for cycling to take about 3
months, but it was your NO3 and no NO2 readings which perplex me now..
There are also trace amounts which bacteria need to grow, but hard
water is usually quite plentiful in various traces.
NetMax
Altum
OP's tank is 3 months old and has always had ammonia. Fish load is
reasonable for cycling in 10 gallons (it was high but he lost some in
the first month and hasn't added more). Water has chloramines, he uses
Tetra's AquaSafe for dechlor and ammonia binder, and kit and binder are
compatible. Treated tap water reads zero free ammonia.
I don't remember if OP has mentioned pH, and plants always help. I was
wondering about the filter surface area for biofiltration. It seems
like some colonies are growing but not enough so I suggested adding a
sponge or bio-beads to the filter.
Does the extra info give you any more ideas?
--Altum
Altum
> I added the sponge I have, sliding it behind the bio-bag, and observed
> no appreciable decrease in flow--although I will monitor it very very
> carefully. I didn't do a water change and didn't feed the fish. I
> will check ammonia again tomm and if it is down I guess that will be
> cause for relief. If it is the same then I will be further mystified.
It will take longer than overnight for bacteria to colonize new media.
Give it a week. and I really hope it works!
--Altum
NetMax
binder are
compatible.<snip>
Thanks Altum. Does kit/binder *compatibility* imply no false ammonia
readings? It can be a real mess when NH3 is put into this proprietary
quasi-NH4 state. The OP could fill a container of water, treat it for
chloramines as is being done in the aquarium and then test for ammonia
;~) Empirical analysis.
humBill
checked the expiration date on the tests. API prints the production
date on each bottle. Some believe that solution older than 2 years at
the most, will not yield accurate results. I have also heard of people
buying 'new' bottles off the shelf that were already approaching 2
years old. Just a thought.
Bill
fbh...@gmail.com
I see a "lot number" stamp, which possibly incorporates the
date...which might be November 2005.
Thanks,
Fred
humBill
>
> I see a "lot number" stamp, which possibly incorporates the
> date...which might be November 2005.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Fred
That's right. Last 4 digits so yours must say 1105 - which means they
are fine.
Bill