old water/ slack maintenance good?!
denizen
fine! This led me to reconsider the established practice in the early
60s when I started, of striving for "old" water with few water
changes!
Below are some quotes from the TFH book "Light in the aquarium" by
Rolf Keubler (first edition 1968 with 1973 copyright for English
translation) regarding aquaria stocked with fish and plants. Some of
the things Keubler's written may have merit, and I'll continue to
slack off on maintenance for now. Comments?
d.
" The more favourable the biological "harmony" between water and plant
(the balanced aquarium), the more beneficial is the effect of good
lighting on the aquarium!".
"Some time ago one often spoke of the 'balanced aquarium', meaning
that the biological influences, e.g. bacterial activity... become
adapted to another and counterbalance each other."
"Someone who, for instance, with a powerful pump runs all the water of
the aquarium through a filter 10 to 20 times a day, certainly manages
to bring the water to an artificial nominal value." Comment, my main
aquarium has 2 big canister filters that probably recirculate the
water 4-5 times per HOUR!
"An example of this: two different tanks... after a year filtration
switched off... merely weak aeration via airstones, and also a partial
water change with humus extract every three monts... surprise
occurred: the water had acquired an extraordinary clearness... a year
after fitration ceased the (plants) more and more suffocated by the
excessive growths of green and blue-green algae...".
"... biological change of the aquarium water, unless constantly
encouraged artificially, only comes about very slowly... "
"...filtration must have only a weak effect in order to fulfill its
function".
Mister Gardener
> Rolf Keubler (first edition 1968 with 1973 copyright for English
> translation) regarding aquaria stocked with fish and plants. Some of
> the things Keubler's written may have merit, and I'll continue to
> slack off on maintenance for now. Comments?
> d.
Slack on, my friend. Whatever old tanks your syndrome.
MG
NetMax
balance obtained between fish respiration, waste products (amount of
food put in), temperature, plant load, bacteria load & diversity and
light (intensity & duration).
If/when I have the time, I'd like to put together a self-maintaining
system (where the only artificial inputs are light, heat and water
circulation). Sailfin mollies might be a good candidate, being algae
eating, protein skimming omnivores, if only they wouldn't breed
themselves past the system's capability so quickly. That way I'd only
need perhaps 3:1 ratio (75g of plant/invertebrate culture).
Alternately, a small carnivore, but a much higher ratio of culture
would be needed (more animal like worms, shrimps etc and more plant to
filter the extra waste). Perhaps some Paradisefish in conditions
where their fry would not do well.
In any case, ymmv with old water/slack maintenance, depending on your
setup. I've seen tanks which were taken out of service (no
electricity, a few fish) and if they received sunlight and the bio-
load non-critically stabilized to a low point, the tank looked
pristine.
~~
On May 20, 12:43 pm, "Mister Gardener" <mrgarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
denizen
On May 20, 1:15 pm, NetMax <computeral...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It all depends
Tanks for the advice NM and MG. I'll watch for that old syndrome, but
as long as the pH is neutral or above it may not apply, eh?
My aquariums are heavily planted, even the little snail aquarium.
They've now all gone a month before maintenance, and the snails seem
no more smelly than usual.
Since rediscovering T. Barr's methods a year ago, I've been doing big,
fairly frequent water changes. Hopefully the slacker approach will
work too. Can you imagine 6 weeks, 8 weeks between major
maintenance??? That will leave time for gardening, barbeques, biking
and walking around town, camping trips... all the good things of an
Ontario summer :o) .
d.
NetMax
Fall. Less fish = less maintenance : )
re: for OTS, I'd watch the kH if your water is neutral, and NO3 if
your water is hard.
~~
Mister Gardener
that completed its first year in January. Light is provided by the nearby
window. Heat is provided by the ambient room heat. He did 4 partial water
changes during the year. And he never fed the fish. He writes Timeline, the
aquarium history column, and I believe he was attempting to replicate the
conditions of a 19th century aquarium. The not feeding thing was an added
feature; I believe it was common to feed crushed crackers back in those
days.
MG
Mister Gardener
> as long as the pH is neutral or above it may not apply, eh?
>
necessarily so and ain't unnecessarily not so, there are innumerable
variables in every tank. With your knowledge and experience, I'm sure you'll
make it work. Or not.
MG
denizen
On May 20, 4:06 pm, "Mister Gardener" <mrgarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
I'm surprised that this topic caused little discussion, only well-
reasoned discussion from yourself and NM. Aren't water changes, gravel
vacuuming (I don't as a rule - not much) and filtration semi-religious
dogma in the aquarium world? Must be that it's summer, and most
everyone is surreptitiously ignoring their aquarium maintenance in
favour of planting petunias ;o) !
d.
Mister Gardener
> reasoned discussion from yourself and NM. Aren't water changes, gravel
> vacuuming (I don't as a rule - not much) and filtration semi-religious
> dogma in the aquarium world?
My karma ran over my dogma. And no, I'm not going to explain that one.
> Must be that it's summer, and most
> everyone is surreptitiously ignoring their aquarium maintenance in
> favour of planting petunias ;o) !
> d.
Maybe summer somewhere - we're still firing up the wood cookstove in the
morning.
MG
NetMax
Denizen, water changes are doctrine, even mantra for new hobbyists.
Here; knowledge teaches why, experience teaches why not, practice
teaches how much and wisdom tells us how far ;~)
~~
On May 20, 3:35 pm, "Mister Gardener" <mrgarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
Melissa Phillips
important water changes are to being a successful aquarist:) I did say
at the end of it though that heavily planted tanks with few fish may
not need water changes as frequently. I still think that water changes
are important. I have gone through times when I slacked off, with a
heavily planted tank, and then when i did resume my normal water change
routine (usually weekly 25-30% changes) I noticed my fish and plants
seemed to perk up and just look better. I do think my tank was to
stocked to not be doing water changes though, and I probably didn't
have the right kind of plants. I didn't really have any fast growing
stem plants. It was a 29 gallon and at the time had Bull (a big
angelfish) and 2 pencil fish and a couple of botias. I think the
longest I went without a water change was 2 months, maybe 3. I started
noticing my fish not looking good and my plants turning yellow and then
I started doing water changes again.
Mister Gardener
>
don't recall the tank as being particularly large, 10 or 20 gallons, and the
fish population was, as expected, small but stable by the end of the year.
Endlers or guppies.
MG
Justice
IMO is a bit too much I usualy go from weekly to every third week. 3
weeks is as far as I go. but yes I would think it depends on your
inhabitants. Some fish like dirty water, some like cleen, It would
depend on thier natural habbitat. Also without live plants all that
fish poo can have some bad effects, as stuff decays it produces
gasses, and if nothing is there to eather relase or consume them you
could end up with problems. but I don't think monthy changes would bee
too bad, un less were talking about a 5 or 10 gal tank with 20 fish in
there.
denizen
On May 21, 10:45 am, Justice <foi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think monthy changes would bee
> too bad, un less were talking about a 5 or 10 gal tank with 20 fish in
> there.
My main aquarium is a heavily-planted, moderately-stocked 90gal. So
far the only drawback to letting it go a month is, that the floating
plants became thick and now my platy population is starting to
burgeon.
I'm undecided on maintenance routine for my smaller aquaria this
summer. Have let them go a month this time, but may step up
maintenance if they seem to go down hill.
d.
NetMax
maintenance. With a planted tank and low fish load, there is no
ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. If the kH was reasonably high to start
with (or you have some coral in the tank), the pH may remain
completely steady. An indicator is now hard to find. Does the
increase in DOCs make strange fungal infections start? Does the
increase in hormones cause the fish to stop or slow spawning, or
create more defects? Does the mineral inbalance cause plant growth
oddities or sudden persistant new algae?
Experienced hobbyists can often see some sign with some of their tanks
(not all), but new hobbyists don't really have a chance of seeing
anything before it's too late (OTS, diseases, mutations, deaths, crazy
algae etc). Sometimes I like pushing the envelope and looking for
signs. Other times, I just drag the water-change pail out like
clockwork ;~)
~~
denizen
On May 21, 12:43 pm, NetMax <computeral...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Experienced hobbyists can often see some sign with some of their tanks
> (not all), but new hobbyists don't really have a chance of seeing
> anything before it's too late
This brings up a subject for another possible "how come?" thread. How
come there seem to be few newbies posting to TFA? New posters to the
group turn out to have kept fish for years, and/ or they work in an
aquarium store!
Are newbies' needs being met by web sites instead of discussion
groups? Is TFA not well advertised? I think it is, at least Google
finds it readily? Is TFA's natural domain the experienced fish keeper?
Possibly true - newbie problems are predictable and perhaps boring
because we all experienced them ourselves long ago...
Perhaps managers need a designated newbie-welcomer each week? A
simplified Krib? Or perhaps TFA isn't really for newbies...
d.
Eduardo Starling
> > everyone is surreptitiously ignoring their aquarium maintenance in
> > favour of planting petunias ;o) !
> > d.
>
> Maybe summer somewhere - we're still firing up the wood cookstove in the
> morning.
Not here at southern hemisphere. ;) But even though is not that hot now
(it's a rather rainy autumn this year), today's temperature (27ºC / 80 F)
can look like summer to most of you.
About water changes: in the past, when I had FBF on my tanks, I used
to do only major maintenance on them on a period of aprox. 8 weeks.
After I learnt with my personal disasters, I changed filtration and now
I do water changes almost weekly, about 20% of tank's volume.
Eduardo
Eduardo Starling
the appearance of their tanks are really awful. As my girlfriend's bettas are
looking much better than mine, and I'm the slacker one, I'm thinking about
treating them better, or leave them with her and focus my 10g and my 20g.
:)
Eduardo
Donna Camp
occasional water change and add fish when 1 died. About 6 months ago I
decided to learn more about my finny friends. I found this list by searching
Google groups. I also found a couple of yahoo groups basically the same way.
I also found a few websites that I prowl - I see Mr. G on an angel site. I
have no problem understanding enough of what's being said on this list to
not scare me. Do I read every thread here, no. But, I don't read every
thread on every website I go to either. I learn a lot from the people on
this list. I'm not afraid to ask questions that I think may be very
beginner. When I ask a question, I don't feel that the people answering me
are talking down to me. I like the attitude that the people have here that
the less chemicals added to tanks, the better. I've learned to trust the
information given here, unlike a couple of websites I've seen.
Donna
Donna Camp
occasional water change and add fish when 1 died. About 6 months ago I
decided to learn more about my finny friends. I found this list by searching
Google groups. I also found a couple of yahoo groups basically the same way.
I also found a few websites that I prowl - I see Mr. G on an angel site. I
have no problem understanding enough of what's being said on this list to
not scare me. Do I read every thread here, no. But, I don't read every
thread on every website I go to either. I learn a lot from the people on
this list. I'm not afraid to ask questions that I think may be very
beginner. When I ask a question, I don't feel that the people answering me
are talking down to me. I like the attitude that the people have here that
the less chemicals added to tanks, the better. I've learned to trust the
information given here, unlike a couple of websites I've seen.
Donna
----- Original Message -----
From: "denizen" <deni...@yahoo.ca>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 1:00 PM
Subject: [TFA] Re: old water/ slack maintenance good?!
>
>
>
Mister Gardener
finally beginning to catch on to this internet thing. The Big 3 North
American magazines have been insulting internet groups for years, but all of
a sudden, they are promoting their own bigger and better newbie friendly
forums. Bowtie, which publishes both Freshwater and Marine Aquarium AND
Aquarium Fish International, (formerly Aquarium Fish Magazine), has just
launched a combined forum / information site that promises one stop shopping
for all - yes, they are even boasting about their animated advertisements. I
haven't visited their new site yet, but will probably drop by soon to check
it out. Frankly, I find most aquarium sites boring, too structured, post in
this section for water quality, this section for lighting, that section for
off topic, if you need to fart please take it outside, blah blah blah. I
like TFA because I never know what I'm going to find when I log on. And I
can fart when I darn well please.
Back to the original topic - beginners. TFA members have been terrific at
giving tons of support and advice to beginners, advice that is customized to
the individual's equipment, budget, and expectations. Quick responses to
questions can take a beginner from a monstrous mess of a first tank to a
healthy and ever improving experience in a rapid exchange of messages - all
in a day's work. I don't see this level of interaction on other forums. I've
tested a few with questions of my own, and have waited days for a response,
and some have received no response at all. That doesn't happen on TFA.
My first forum was back in the days before the web and AOL. There was
Compuserve and there was Delphi. On my forum, we had a standing offer that
we would award $100 to any lurker that revealed themselves. Naturally, as
soon as a lurker stepped up for the prize, they had blown their lurker
status and disqualified themselves. You'd be surprised how many lurkers came
out of the closet, and became active participants in our ongoing silliness.
MG
Justice
ago. most of my questions were asked here and all were responded to.
as now I have 3 tanks set up. Oh yes. Fart on brother, fart on!
On May 21, 2:34 pm, "Mister Gardener" <mrgarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
Altum
On May 21, 10:00 am, denizen <denize...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On May 21, 12:43 pm, NetMax <computeral...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Experienced hobbyists can often see some sign with some of their tanks
> > (not all), but new hobbyists don't really have a chance of seeing
> > anything before it's too late
>
> This brings up a subject for another possible "how come?" thread. How
> come there seem to be few newbies posting to TFA? New posters to the
> group turn out to have kept fish for years, and/ or they work in an
> aquarium store!
>
> Are newbies' needs being met by web sites instead of discussion
> groups? Is TFA not well advertised? I think it is, at least Google
> finds it readily? Is TFA's natural domain the experienced fish keeper?
> Possibly true - newbie problems are predictable and perhaps boring
> because we all experienced them ourselves long ago...
I think maybe TFA is mostly catching people who have been on basic
fish discussion groups in the past, like usenet and compuserve. That
means it would tend to attract people with more experience. I suspect
the newbies are going to the big phpBB style forums.
> Perhaps managers need a designated newbie-welcomer each week? A
> simplified Krib? Or perhaps TFA isn't really for newbies...
> d.
We try to our best to welcome all the new folks. Apologies to anyone
who's slipped through the cracks!
--Altum
NetMax
~~
> > d.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
denizen
On May 22, 12:27 am, Altum <Pt.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think maybe TFA is mostly catching people who have been on basic
> fish discussion groups in the past, like usenet and compuserve. That
> means it would tend to attract people with more experience. I suspect
> the newbies are going to the big phpBB style forums.
>
Yes, you're probably right - TFA attracts people with at least some
aquarium experience, people who're becoming serious aquarium
hobbyists. Therefore the technical nature of some of our discussions
is ok, and if a mom or dad who's aquired their first family aquarium
writes with a question, it'll be answered as simply and appropriately
as possible.
d.