Water changes and vacuuming
ifb-online
most seem to recommend, is to keep Nitrate levels from getting too
high.
My tests indicate that my tank's Nitrates remain fairly low - 10-20
mg/litre, even at the end of the week, maybe because I have a fairly
heavily planted tank. Indeed, there doesn't appear to be any difference
in the Nitrate level of the water in my tank compared to that in our
tap water. So should I change the water (I do a 22 litres change (two
buckets) and the tank has a theoretical capacity of 120 litres,
probably 7-8 litres left once you take into account the gravel, rocks
and submerged background material) of as frequently as once a week?
Also, how often should I vacuum the tank's gravel. Currently, I do this
once a week with the water change, though as the bucket fills quickly,
I don't usually get the chance to do a very thorough vac.I now have a
battery powered vac/siphon, so I could vac without changing the water
(it has a filter bag system), though not tried it yet. As discussed in
a separate thread, blue green (and I have to say - hair algae) are a
bit of a problem, but otherwise the water is clear and the plants are
growing fast enough for me to have to prune some of them each week.
The tank contains three dwarf gouramis, 7 Danios, 6 Corys and an
Ancistrus - plus two Amano shrimp and a rapidly increasing population
of snails. I use the standard submerged filter that comes with the
Juwel Rekord 120 (Compact H type) and the water is currently testing
well: pH 7.5 (I'm injecting 30 bubbles CO2/minute), nil Ammonia and
Nitrite, 10-20mg/litre nitrate.
Much appreciated!
Ian
carlrs
ifb-online wrote:
> As I understand it, the primary reason for a weekly water change, which
> most seem to recommend, is to keep Nitrate levels from getting too
> high.
>
> My tests indicate that my tank's Nitrates remain fairly low - 10-20
> mg/litre, even at the end of the week, maybe because I have a fairly
> heavily planted tank. Indeed, there doesn't appear to be any difference
> in the Nitrate level of the water in my tank compared to that in our
> tap water. So should I change the water (I do a 22 litres change (two
> buckets) and the tank has a theoretical capacity of 120 litres,
> probably 7-8 litres left once you take into account the gravel, rocks
> and submerged background material) of as frequently as once a week?
>
> Also, how often should I vacuum the tank's gravel. Currently, I do this
> once a week with the water change, though as the bucket fills quickly,
> I don't usually get the chance to do a very thorough vac.I now have a
> battery powered vac/siphon, so I could vac without changing the water
> (it has a filter bag system), though not tried it yet. As discussed in
> a separate thread, blue green (and I have to say - hair algae) are a
> bit of a problem, but otherwise the water is clear and the plants are
> growing fast enough for me to have to prune some of them each week.
I would keep up your schedule of cleaning. Also with plants it is not
necessary to totally clean the gravel around the roots. There are
several reasons for water changes and cleaning of your filter(s).
Here are just a few in my opinion:
* Nitrate control- A nitrate level of 20 ppm or less is best
* Ph control- Maintaining a proper ph (ph levels have a tendency to
drop from biological activity)
* Removal of harmful elements
* Rinsing of bio-sponges, media, ECT in used aquarium water (not tap
water). This includes sponge filters, bio balls, and ceramic media in
canister filters (canister filters need to be cleaned more often than
many aquarists think)
* Removal of waste before it can go thru the nitrogen cycle
* Control of algae growth
Carl
ifb-online
been suggested that I am vacuuming too much and that my NO3 levels are,
if anything, too low, allowing blue-green algae to take hold.
My tank's filter has several layers of different density sponges and I
haven't cleaned the main ones yet since the tank was set up two months
ago, though I regularly change the topmost filter floss and I have
changed the carbon sponge once (just 10 days ago).
Ian
carlrs
I have not had too many problems with BG algae, but I have always
vacuumed regularly (including caerfully vacuuming planted aquariums).
I would recommend rinsing your other sponges in used aquarium water or
dechlorinated tap water.
I posted this URL from the other topic about BG algae:
http://www.spea.indiana.edu/clp/WATER%20COL%20V17,%20N2.pdf#search='treatment%20of%20blue%20green%20algae%20in%20lakes%20of%20oregon'
This URL is about BG in lakes which is a problem in our area, but I
believe this article has relevence to aquariums too.
Carl
ifb-online
referred to it. As I thought, these bacteria can fix nitrogen, so they
can prosper in tanks with low ammonia/nitrate/nitrite. I was interested
in the heat reference. My tank has been in the low 80s during the day
recently. I hope I can get it back down to around 78F when the weather
gets cooler.
Of course it's basic sensible afvice to clean anything that may have
beneficial bacteria in it using mature tank water. I've had a look at
the sponges in my filter as there is a handy basket-style arrangement
for inserting and removing them. The main filters look fine and theer
is no issue with reduced water flow.
Ian
Frank
>Problem is that I am getting some conflicting advice - ...
The main reason for water changes is to keep the DOC ((dissolved
organic compounds)(uneaten foods and fish waste)) levels from
accumulating. A 20% weekly water change leaves about 30 days of
accumulated DOC pollutants in the tank. Planted aquaria and wet/dry
(bio-wheel) filters also help to remove DOCs.
>My tank's filter has several layers of different density
>sponges and I haven't cleaned the main ones yet since
>the tank was set up two months ago, though I regularly
>change the topmost filter floss ......
By keeping the machanical filter media clean, you reduce the load on
the bio-section and encourage growth of the nitrifying bacteria. It
sounds like your floss is your 'pre-filter' for the bio-section. You
might want to add a pre-filter to your intakes. The pre-filter media
should be cleaned or changed at least 2 or 3 times a week as to keep
the solid waste from becomming DOCs.
>and I have changed the carbon sponge
>once (just 10 days ago)....
No need for carbon to be used 'full time' in your filter. I only use it
to remove medications, odors, and dyes.
Since you can't use an antibiotic to kill the BGA, you might want to
see it your LPS can get you something that eats the stuff. Florida Flag
Fish, Procatopus, Ameca Splendens (butterfly goodeid), and Red
Ramshorns Snails not only eat BGA, but hair algae as well.
..................... Frank (FB)
Altum
ifb-online wrote:
> Yes I did read thath interesting article last week when you first
> referred to it. As I thought, these bacteria can fix nitrogen, so they
> can prosper in tanks with low ammonia/nitrate/nitrite. I was interested
> in the heat reference. My tank has been in the low 80s during the day
> recently. I hope I can get it back down to around 78F when the weather
> gets cooler.
According to Tom Barr, the only genus of cyanobacteria found in FW
aquaria is Oscillatoria. Oscillatoria do not fix nitrogen, but they
are much better at extracting extremely small amounts of nitrate from
the water column than plants are. Nitrate starve a tank while
providing everything else that plants or algae need and Oscillatoria
has a substantial advantage.
Do not get confused by trying to compare an aquarium to a natural body
of water. The two are quite different. When's the last time you saw
1" of fish/gallon in a lake??? Limiting phosphate in aquaria to
control algae sometimes works, but it's rather difficult and tends to
lead to phosphate-starved plants.
--Altum
carlrs
Altum wrote:
> Do not get confused by trying to compare an aquarium to a natural body
> of water. The two are quite different. When's the last time you saw
> 1" of fish/gallon in a lake??? Limiting phosphate in aquaria to
> control algae sometimes works, but it's rather difficult and tends to
> lead to phosphate-starved plants.
Yes I agree that there are large differences between aquariums and
lakes, but I do believe there are similarities too. Using a marine
aquarium as an example, it is imposible to keep the nitrates at 0 like
an even larger body of water such as the ocean (which has thousands of
acres of anaerobis denitrating beds), but we as aquarists are still
able to keep are other parameters in check using other natural and
un-natural means.
My point only was to explore all possible remedies including and
especially temperature control, water changes (smaller lakes with this
problem are often pumped), and even UVC sterililization (not used in
lakes) which works well for ponds and aquariums (which is what I partly
attribute to my very few problems with BG algae).
Carl
ifb-online
temperatures and low nitrates. Iron supplements are also suspect and I
do add chelated iron with the new water during a water change.
My tank's Nitrate level tested last night was, if anything, slightly
lower than the nitrate level in my tap water (tested at the same time).
The tank has also been at 82F routinely for the last few weeks and as
high as 84F on very hot days.
But if Nitrates are low in my tank, it hasn't stopped the plant growth.
See below:
This was taken 3 weeks ago:
http//dpnow.com/images/misc/forum/tank20062006.jpg
This was taken this morning:
http//dpnow.com/images/misc/forum/tank1107062006.jpg
The plant on the right is Limnophila Heterophylla (a kind of Ambulia)
and I have hacked that back in the last ten days, but it has recovered
completely. Cabomba is on the left and is less aggressive with its
growth, but I have cut that back since the first picture too.
So should I add NO3 after the next water change and in what form? What
else should I be doing?
Thanks,
Ian
ifb-online
This was taken 3 weeks ago:
http://dpnow.com/images/misc/forum/tank20062006.jpg
This was taken this morning:
http://dpnow.com/images/misc/forum/tank1107062006.jpg
carlrs
nitrates should go up naturaly. Continue to vacuum excess BG though.
Reduce the temp by covering the aquarium with a wet towell (if A/C is
unavailable), or float frozen 2 litre bottles.
Others may have a better answer for your nitrate question.
In my opinion, you have a very nice aquarium, and I would not stress to
much about it.
Carl
Marco Schwarz
> Also, how often should I vacuum the tank's gravel.
Well, in our fish keeping tradition we don't try to disturb the
substrate (sand or gravel).
cu
Marco
ternerito
Do I understand correctly, are you saying that vacuuming should only
affect the most superficial layer of the substrate (gravel in my case)?
I always tried to avoid the plant's roots but, other than that, I was
vacuuming a good 2-3 inches deep. OK, I'll ask the stupid question:
how deep should one vacuum? :)
luca
Marco Schwarz
> Do I understand correctly, are you saying that vacuuming should only
> affect the most superficial layer of the substrate (gravel in my case)?
We don't dig around in it but let it completely untouched.
cu
Marco
ternerito
A confused beginner here. :) Since I started this hobby, I am doing my
best to try to reduce the number of things I am doing wrong, an
overwhelming task. :) I would not be suprised to have to add
vacuuming to the list.
However, on most websites, the prevailing reccomandation seems to be to
vacuum the substrate in depth. For instance, the following is taken
from Netmax's FAQ (netmax.tk):
"[substrate] DEPTH
Opinions vary, but generally you should use the minimum amount of
gravel which will achieve your objective. Deep gravel accumulates more
detritus and is harder to vacuum."
If a deeper substrate makes it "harder to vacuum", this seems to imply
that one should vacuum in depth.
luca
Tynk
Ask 10 hobbyists the same question and you get 20 different answers,
lol.
The difference between not vacuuming the gravel and it being a must is
about heavily planted tanks.
In a heavily planted tank the plants pretty much take care of it.
Water changes are still a must of course.
When you have a typical type tank, a few live plants or just plastic
ones you must vacuum the gravel.
Otherwise you build up a toxic cesspool of muck.
Not something you want in your tank, and trust me....neither do your
fish.
By your post I can assume you weren't aware of the need for vacuuming.
Tell me about your tank.
Size, how long it's been set up and running, types and how many of each
fish that are in it, and your water change schedule.
This is the place to be for info, trust me!
Some of the worst advice I have ever heard comes out of pet shops, so
don't even bother asking anything there. If you are *very* lucky, you
will find a good one with knowledgeable folks working in it. However,
it's rare.
When it comes to gathering info here, if somebody says something that's
not exactly right on, there will be plenty of folks replying to it.
There's a lot of bogus information out there, or simply outdated.
Take for instance the one of fish per gallon rule. What a crock that
is, and has no place in the hobby anymore.
Yet you'll find it in about every book out there still.
Try fitting a10" Oscar in a 10g tank. = O Not going to happen.
There are so many things to be considered when stocking a tank, and
size (adult size that is, not what you see in the shops usually) is
only one of them.
many fish need territories, some need to be in schools, some need to be
only with their own kind and some even don't want any of their own kind
in a tank.
(Red Tail Sharks being an obvious one that comes to mind, hehe)
There are even fish sold in shops that have no place being sold in the
first place.
RedTail Catfish....oh my HUGE, like the size of a grown man when fully
grown.
Arowanas...Giant Gouramis, and many many more.
I was in a shop today and a lady was looking for an algae eater and
wanted a Plecostomus (aka pleco for short) and the employee was going
to get her one.
I asked her what size tank she had and it was a 10g.
I explained that those fish can get over a foot long and have no place
in a 10g tank and that a pair of Otocinclus cats (Oto for short) would
be a much better choice.
The employee agreed and went to get a couple.
You would have thought the employee would have known this in the first
place.
On her way to the Oto tank the employee said that a Chinese algae eater
would also be a good choice. I had to open my mouth again and mention,
yeah...but when they get older they gett aggressive and like to rasp on
the sides of fish and eat their slime coat away (a fish's defense
system against disease, etc) and that to stick with the Otos.
The lady was quite thankful that I told her the right information
instead of keeping my trap shut.
At least I do no it nicely, as I don't like to make the employees mad.
Sometimes they get mad anyway, but they should know what they're doing.
Mister Gardener
practices between our German (and other European?) friends and we in North
America. Both methods seem to work for the people that carry them out; in
fact, the Germans are believed by many to be the "experts" in aquatic plant
care. They were certainly the pioneers. NetMax wrote his FAQ in Canada,
Marco sent his message from across the sea. If I tried Marco's methods on my
tank, they probably wouldn't work. And if Marco tried my methods, they
wouldn't work for him. There are very few rules in this hobby, just
guidelines. You know how your fish look, how your plants look, and how your
water looks. That's what's important. You understand basic warning signs
from your water tests, let them be your guide. Even then, before making any
really big changes in how you do things, look at your fish and your plants
and your water. There is a tremendous amount of information in publications
and on the web, and often times there are conflicting opinions. I enjoy
reading it all, especially the conflicts. It's intellectual fodder. Grist
for the mill. Sift through it and find what works for you. Pick your
"gurus", people who make the most sense to you, and stick with them.
MG
carlrs
I would follow the advice you found on Netmax's FAQ.
I have always vacuumed in in the aquariums I have proffesional
maintained, the exception being; heavily planted aquariums and even
then I vacuum around areas without roots.
I should also qualify my statement above to say; originaly I did not
regularly vacuum all my customers aquariums, then after comparing
records (nitrates in particular), I found a noticible improvement in
those that were vacuumed.
I have a basic aquarium informational site(blog) too:
http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/
Carl
ternerito
Tynk wrote:
> Ask 10 hobbyists the same question and you get 20 different answers,
> lol.
Yes, I am starting to get that... :D
> By your post I can assume you weren't aware of the need for vacuuming.
> Tell me about your tank.
> Size, how long it's been set up and running, types and how many of each
> fish that are in it, and your water change schedule.
I have a 125g, moderately planted, which houses 5 GF. We used to have
a pleco and an ADF as well, but they were recently evicted, as they're
starting to get too aggressive toward the GF.
I did vacuum the gravel from day one. In retrospect, perhaps one of
the few things I did right. :) I was just trying to put things in
context...
> I was in a shop today and a lady was looking for an algae eater and
> wanted a Plecostomus (aka pleco for short) and the employee was going
> to get her one.
> I asked her what size tank she had and it was a 10g.
Maybe that employee is related to the one that sold us our pleco for a
20g tank with 3 GF. ;)
luca
Nikki B
size vacuum's, one i made longer and thiner for the betta tanks so it
comes out slower, but in the one tank i do have plants in i use a
smaller size vac as it does not bother the roots if i go over them not
meaning too, If i use my bigger vac (for the 120g tank) in the panted
tank it would rip the roots right up.
Nik
Gill Passman
common to gravel vac (full depth of the gravel) with the exception of
around plant roots....
Gill
Mister Gardener
> common to gravel vac (full depth of the gravel) with the exception of
> around plant roots....
Gill - can you expand on that - how about the rest of Europe, do they follow
the "German" methods or are they more English-ized?
MG
Tynk
ternerito wrote:
>
> I have a 125g, moderately planted, which houses 5 GF. We used to have
> a pleco and an ADF as well, but they were recently evicted, as they're
> starting to get too aggressive toward the GF.
>
> I did vacuum the gravel from day one. In retrospect, perhaps one of
> the few things I did right. :) I was just trying to put things in
> context...
::wipes a tear and sniffs::
A 125g for 5 Goldies.....You are wiser than you give yourself credit
for my dear.
Great job.
Gill Passman
Gill
NetMax
ifb-online wrote:
> As I understand it, the primary reason for a weekly water change, which
> most seem to recommend, is to keep Nitrate levels from getting too
> high.
> Much appreciated!
>
> Ian
I think I would disagree with that statement (jmo).
On the surface, it would appear to be true, NO3 (nitrate) does
accumulate in many tank setups (non-planted tank, old tank syndrome
with hard water, lightly planted tanks with higer fishloads ...etc),
and NO3 is something we can easily measure, so it's easy to adjust the
water change and maintenance procedure to regulate the amount of NO3 in
the tank. Many freshwater fish actually becomes accustomed to the NO3
level, so unless it is changed quickly, it may appear not to bother
them.
Unfortunately, many elements are building up, that we cannot measure -
or cannot easily measure (DOCs, hormones, etc). The thinking is if
your maintenance routine is able to keep the NO3 levels down, then the
rest of these lesser known elements are also being diluted. We now
know this is frequently NOT the case, as many tanks do not accumulate
NO3 (because of the plant life), and we also know that normal
maintenance to control NO3 is often insufficient to control other
elements, - and - these other elements can be worse for freshwater fish
than NO3.
Draw your own conclusions or definitions.
NetMax
Mister Gardener
>
> On the surface, it would appear to be true, NO3 (nitrate) does
Does the replenishing of some elements, like electrolytes, with the fresh
water play much of a role in the overall picture?
MG
Marco Schwarz
> I don't know about the rest of Europe just what is common in the UK....
Hmm.., interesting. The Continental Europeans I personally know don't
vac, too and the first time I heard about vacuuming was in the
rec.aquaria_groups..
cu
Marco
Marco Schwarz
@ Ian:
> > As I understand it, the primary reason for a weekly water change, which
> > most seem to recommend, is to keep Nitrate levels from getting too
> > high.
Hmm.., it might depend on stocking, planting, lightening and feeding..,
too.
@ Netmax:
> Unfortunately, many elements are building up, that we cannot measure -
> or cannot easily measure (DOCs, hormones, etc). The thinking is if
> your maintenance routine is able to keep the NO3 levels down, then the
> rest of these lesser known elements are also being diluted. We now
> know this is frequently NOT the case, as many tanks do not accumulate
> NO3 (because of the plant life), and we also know that normal
> maintenance to control NO3 is often insufficient to control other
> elements, - and - these other elements can be worse for freshwater fish
> than NO3.
ACK.
cu
Marco
> NetMax
Frank
>Does the replenishing of some elements, like electrolytes, with
Fish actively maintain a natural balance of electrolytes in their body
fluids, such as potassium, sodium, chloride, and magnesium and are
removed from water by chloride cells located in the gills. These
electrolytes are essential for the intakle of oxygen and release of
carbon dioxide and ammonium across gill membranes. The lack of
electrolytes can cause serious health problems to the fish. osmotic
shock interrupts healthy gill function by reducing the intake of oxygen
and release of carbon dioxide and ammonium from the fish. This can lead
to the loss of electrolytes through the gills. Also, a fish who has had
their slime coat disturbed can lose electrolytes through their skin
increasing the possibility of a fish contracting osmotic shock. So your
answer is yes - electrolytes play a very large part of the
picture.............Frank(FB)
ifb-online
which is reasonably well planted? And what percentage of water should I
replace each change?
Assume the tank is on the limit for bio-load.
Ian
Mister Gardener
> which is reasonably well planted? And what percentage of water should I
> replace each change?
I thought you were all set on a weekly 17 % change or something like that.
It's not working out for you? Or is it reassessment time.
MG
carlrs
NetMax wrote:
> ifb-online wrote:
> > As I understand it, the primary reason for a weekly water change, which
> > most seem to recommend, is to keep Nitrate levels from getting too
> > high.
> <snip>
>
> > Much appreciated!
> >
> > Ian
>
> I think I would disagree with that statement (jmo).
I often have told my customers that Nitrate removal was a ONE reason
for water changes with vacuuming and it is an important reason, but do
agree that there are many other reason for water changes, some
measurable, some not.
Ph and KH are affected by water changes, but there are many toxins that
can be introduced, airborne or in other ways enter the aquarium that
are not easily measured.
Also as for Nitrates, especially in marine aquariums, removing organic
debris before it "cycles" via vacuuming is in my opinion the main focus
of nitrate removal via water change.
Carl
Altum
It's not unique to rec.aquaria. I worked in a fish store in Maryland
and we taught beginners to gravel vac. The typical US beginner setup
is a 10 gallon (40 liter) tank with 15W of light, plastic plants,
brightly colored epoxy coated pea-sized gravel, and a tacky ornament or
two. It's very difficult to maintain without cleaning the gravel.
I have no idea why the American concept of a fishtank includes coarse,
brightly colored gravel and diving dogs, but for some reason it does.
--Altum
carlrs
> brightly colored gravel and diving dogs, but for some reason it does.
>
> --Altum
That is a sad/ funny but true point (LOL). I too have worked, owned, or
have been associated with pet store for almost 30 yearrs now. But the
colored gravel, ECT still stands. But I do have an observation here;
the last store I set up was with natural, fine-med sand/ gravel mix in
the FW aquariums, sales were slow, so on advice of a trade rep., I
slowly changed most of our FW aquaria to colored gravel (albeit fine
gravel). Sales went right up? Unfortunately colored sells. We did
however try and at least push fine colored gravel for those who desired
colored gravel ( and we still sold a variety of natural mixes too).
Carl
Marco Schwarz
> It's not unique to rec.aquaria. I worked in a fish store in Maryland
> and we taught beginners to gravel vac. The typical US beginner setup
> is a 10 gallon (40 liter) tank with 15W of light, plastic plants,
> brightly colored epoxy coated pea-sized gravel, and a tacky ornament or
> two. It's very difficult to maintain without cleaning the gravel.
I see.
> I have no idea why the American concept of a fishtank includes coarse,
> brightly colored gravel and diving dogs, but for some reason it does.
http://swissmiss.typepad.com/weblog/2006/03/scuba_diving_do.html
Well.., Google search is great..! :-)
cu
Marco
Altum
Marco Schwarz wrote:
> http://swissmiss.typepad.com/weblog/2006/03/scuba_diving_do.html
>
> Well.., Google search is great..! :-)
ROFL! And here's the aquarium version.
http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=545
You haven't had a PROPER fishtank until you've had one of these bobbing
up and down. Oh - and I forgot the mention the bubble wall...
--Altum