The war on WikiLeaks and why it matters

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amar...@gmail.com

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Mar 29, 2010, 1:48:47 AM3/29/10
to The Sitter Downers Core

Glenn Greenwald: The war on WikiLeaks and why it matters -

The Report seeks to provide a back-up plan for “counting on apathy,” and provides ways that the U.S. Government can manipulate public opinion in these foreign countries.  It explains that French sympathy for Afghan refugees means that exploiting Afghan women as pro-war messengers would be effective, while Germans would be more vulnerable to a fear-mongering campaign (failure in Afghanistan means the Terrorists will get you).  The Report highlights the unique ability of Barack Obama to sell war to European populations.

Anthony

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Mar 29, 2010, 2:45:37 AM3/29/10
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http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/03/27/wikileaks/index.html

mattress

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Mar 30, 2010, 10:27:20 AM3/30/10
to The Sitter Downers Core
"State Secret" is a tyrannical phrase. If the government is of the
people, by the people, and for the people, and they are our employees,
they shouldn't be able to keep secrets from us. Could you imagine if
you were a hands-off owner of a business and your CEO told you, "I
can't tell you what we're doing with your money. It's a corporate
secret."?

If the government is doing some activity that it needs to keep secret,
it shouldn't be doing that thing. The US should not be doing anything
that we need to keep secret from foreign enemies, if that was the case
we'd be unlikely to have any foreign enemies to keep secrets from.

On Mar 29, 1:45 am, Anthony <amarti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/03/27/wikileak...

Anthony Martin

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Mar 30, 2010, 10:30:47 AM3/30/10
to mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
Yes, having a servant government that can keep secrets is a
contradiction. Choose one.

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to TSD-core
> +unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words
> "REMOVE ME" as the subject.

Anthony Martin

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Mar 30, 2010, 10:45:25 AM3/30/10
to mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
More info on the WikiLeaks story (has a news clip about the upcoming
leaked video):

http://rawstory.com/2010/03/wikileaks-release-video-civilians-journalists-murdered-airstrike/

On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:27 AM, mattress <spa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Adam

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Mar 30, 2010, 10:48:41 AM3/30/10
to mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
"The US should not be doing anything
that we need to keep secret from foreign enemies,"

What?

Sent from my iPhone

Anthony

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Mar 30, 2010, 12:43:29 PM3/30/10
to The Sitter Downers Core
How about this, Adam?

"The US should not *have* a back-up plan for 'counting on apathy' that
we need to keep secret from foreign enemies."

Is that more clear? In other words, "we" shouldn't even be doing that
stuff. I say "we" because I'm not involved in any of this.

On Mar 30, 7:48 am, Adam <adamjacks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "The US should not be doing anything
> that we need to keep secret from foreign enemies,"
>
> What?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

Adam

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Mar 30, 2010, 1:01:53 PM3/30/10
to Anthony, The Sitter Downers Core
No. Not clear. I don't get it.

Sent from my iPhone

Anthony Martin

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Mar 30, 2010, 1:06:24 PM3/30/10
to Adam, The Sitter Downers Core
The CIA is manipulating public opinion in Germany.

How would you feel if it turns out operatives from China have been secretly manipulating public opinion in the US?  If you had proof, would you like that information published in some way or would you be happy to just keep that information to yourself?

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Aaron Jackson

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Mar 30, 2010, 7:36:09 PM3/30/10
to Anthony, The Sitter Downers Core
I disagree, until you stop paying taxes you are involved in everything
from secrecy to war.

Aaron Jackson
www.highpriming.com
www.highcaliberguns.com
www.thesitterdowners.com

Sent from my iPhone...

On Mar 30, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Anthony <amar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anthony Martin

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Mar 30, 2010, 7:37:31 PM3/30/10
to Aaron Jackson, The Sitter Downers Core
How convenient.

On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Aaron Jackson <jackso...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Aaron Jackson

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Mar 30, 2010, 8:39:05 PM3/30/10
to Martin Anthony, The Downers Core Sitter
Maybe if I had made it harder to understand it would have been easier for you to understand because hardness taken from superhardness leaves regular hardness on the fifth plane of reality when you thing about stock options that are unlawfully initiated forcefully upon us by government agencies "we" aren't part of because of the hardness it brings to understand "x" being all we are searching for on a given day of tax payments that we don't want to pay. Yes. If you only ever look for "x", "x" is all you will ever find.

On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Anthony Martin wrote:

> Means: "If you only ever look for X, it is all you will ever find."
>
> I guess.
>
> On Mar 30, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Aaron Jackson <jackso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You are the king of obtuse statements that everyone is supposed to understand...I think you can figure it out.
>>
>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Anthony Martin wrote:
>>
>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Aaron Jackson <jackso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We both know that isn't the case...nor will it ever be. If you only ever look for anarchy, it is all you will ever find.
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:07 PM, Anthony Martin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'll skip it. You have put me in my place.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:51 PM, Aaron Jackson <jackso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is nothing convenient about it...as a matter of fact I find it quite convenient that you have all the answers, anarchy is the way, "we" (that is those of us that aren't as smart as you) are responsible for everything that is evil and wrong headed in the world, we don't know how to interpret Scripture, we (and the Church universal) have been duped for 2,000 years), half the people you know should quit their jobs on moral grounds, and on and on, but when it comes times to put the other direction you dismiss it out of hand as an easy attack on your principles. You have a LOT of really great arguments, but they are arrogantly black and white...except when it comes to you paying your taxes. Now you can proceed to rip me apart with your "melancholy".

>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to TSD-core+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words "REMOVE ME" as the subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>

Anthony Martin

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Mar 30, 2010, 8:43:58 PM3/30/10
to Aaron Jackson, The Downers Core Sitter
Have you ever had hempseed?

On Mar 30, 2010, at 5:39 PM, Aaron Jackson <jackso...@gmail.com>

Aaron Jackson

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Mar 30, 2010, 8:46:31 PM3/30/10
to Anthony Martin, The Downers Core Sitter
Not the seed, but...

>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to TSD-core+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words "REMOVE ME" as the subject.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>

mattress

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Mar 31, 2010, 9:30:02 AM3/31/10
to The Sitter Downers Core
"until you stop paying taxes you are involved in everything from
secrecy to war."

This is incorrect because taxes are not voluntary.


On Mar 30, 7:46 pm, Aaron Jackson <jacksonaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not the seed, but...
>
> On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Anthony Martin wrote:
>
> > Have you ever had hempseed?
>

> > On Mar 30, 2010, at 5:39 PM, Aaron Jackson <jacksonaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Maybe if I had made it harder to understand it would have been easier for you to understand because hardness taken from superhardness leaves regular hardness on the fifth plane of reality when you thing about stock options that are unlawfully initiated forcefully upon us by government agencies "we" aren't part of because of the hardness it brings to understand "x" being all we are searching for on a given day of tax payments that we don't want to pay. Yes. If you only ever look for "x", "x" is all you will ever find.
>
> >> On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Anthony Martin wrote:
>
> >>> Means: "If you only ever look for X, it is all you will ever find."
>
> >>> I guess.
>

> >>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Aaron Jackson <jacksonaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> You are the king of obtuse statements that everyone is supposed to understand...I think you can figure it out.
>
> >>>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Anthony Martin wrote:
>
> >>>>> Huh?
>

> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Aaron Jackson <jacksonaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> We both know that isn't the case...nor will it ever be. If you only ever look for anarchy, it is all you will ever find.
>
> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:07 PM, Anthony Martin wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> I'll skip it.  You have put me in my place.
>

> >>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:51 PM, Aaron Jackson <jacksonaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> There is nothing convenient about it...as a matter of fact I find it quite convenient that you have all the answers, anarchy is the way, "we" (that is those of us that aren't as smart as you) are responsible for everything that is evil and wrong headed in the world, we don't know how to interpret Scripture, we (and the Church universal) have been duped for 2,000 years), half the people you know should quit their jobs on moral grounds, and on and on, but when it comes times to put the other direction you dismiss it out of hand as an easy attack on your principles. You have a LOT of really great arguments, but they are arrogantly black and white...except when it comes to you paying your taxes. Now you can proceed to rip me apart with your "melancholy".
>
> >>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 6:37 PM, Anthony Martin wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> How convenient.
>

> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Aaron Jackson <jacksonaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> I disagree, until you stop paying taxes you are involved in everything from secrecy to war.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Aaron Jackson
> >>>>>>>>>>www.highpriming.com
> >>>>>>>>>>www.highcaliberguns.com
> >>>>>>>>>>www.thesitterdowners.com
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone...
>

Anthony

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Mar 31, 2010, 1:27:05 PM3/31/10
to The Sitter Downers Core
For all I know, this might be fake, but this summarizes the position
rather well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlVCbWlx5y8

Also ...

http://www.blogworldexpo.com/blog/2007/08/10/gnomedex-70-opening-keynote-robert-steele/

On Mar 30, 10:01 am, Adam <adamjacks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No. Not clear. I don't get it.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

Anthony

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Mar 31, 2010, 3:40:25 PM3/31/10
to The Sitter Downers Core
You are correct, Matt, taxes are not voluntary. But what Aaron is
saying ties into a blog post I made this week about how I am able to
hold paying taxes against others, but I don't have to hold it against
myself.

http://inertia.freedom-blogs.com/358/because-of-romans-13/

It boils down to this: I have to either stop paying taxes (et al.
things having to do with aiding government in any way) or shut the
hell up already.

Aaron Jackson

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Mar 31, 2010, 4:59:45 PM3/31/10
to Anthony, The Sitter Downers Core
All I was trying to say is that you should remove the tax part of the
argument or strengthen in some way. If I'm "the man" because I pay my
taxes, then so are you...no?

Aaron Jackson
www.highpriming.com
www.highcaliberguns.com
www.thesitterdowners.com

Sent from my iPhone...

Anthony Martin

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Mar 31, 2010, 5:07:28 PM3/31/10
to Aaron Jackson, The Sitter Downers Core
But don't you think there should be some taxes?  Whether it's 0.1% or 400%, there ought be taxes no matter what.  And you think I should pay 0.1% or 400% just like you, whatever that "fair share" is, right?

I guess I didn't think I had to explore that since on the outset, you think there *ought be* taxes.  Maybe I'm wrong about what you think.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to TSD-core+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words "REMOVE ME" as the subject.

Aaron Jackson

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Mar 31, 2010, 5:22:21 PM3/31/10
to Anthony Martin, The Sitter Downers Core
What if I do, but not for the reasons they ate collected now...in other words not to supress you.

Anthony Martin

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Mar 31, 2010, 5:24:13 PM3/31/10
to Aaron Jackson, The Sitter Downers Core
I assume "ate" means "are."

So if I didn't pay the amount you pay, you think I should be able to get away with it?

mattress

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Mar 31, 2010, 5:56:08 PM3/31/10
to The Sitter Downers Core
"What if I do, but not for the reasons they are collected now...in

other words not to supress you."

How can involuntary taxes not suppress those being taxed? Whatever
amount I am taxed is an amount that I no longer have to spend how I
wish. Whatever amount of work I do in order to pay that tax is work I
do as a slave.

On Mar 31, 4:24 pm, Anthony Martin <amarti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I assume "ate" means "are."
>
> So if I didn't pay the amount you pay, you think I should be able to  
> get away with it?
>

> On Mar 31, 2010, at 2:22 PM, Aaron Jackson <jacksonaar...@gmail.com>  


> wrote:
>
> > What if I do, but not for the reasons they ate collected now...in  
> > other words not to supress you.
>
> > Aaron Jackson
> >www.highpriming.com
> >www.highcaliberguns.com
> >www.thesitterdowners.com
>
> > Sent from my iPhone...
>

> > On Mar 31, 2010, at 4:07 PM, Anthony Martin <amarti...@gmail.com>  


> > wrote:
>
> >> But don't you think there should be some taxes?  Whether it's 0.1%  
> >> or 400%, there ought be taxes no matter what.  And you think I  
> >> should pay 0.1% or 400% just like you, whatever that "fair share"  
> >> is, right?
>
> >> I guess I didn't think I had to explore that since on the outset,  
> >> you think there *ought be* taxes.  Maybe I'm wrong about what you  
> >> think.
>

> >> On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Aaron Jackson <jacksonaar...@gmail.com


> >> > wrote:
> >> All I was trying to say is that you should remove the tax part of  
> >> the argument or strengthen in some way. If  I'm "the man" because I  
> >> pay my taxes, then so are you...no?
>
> >> Aaron Jackson
> >>www.highpriming.com
> >>www.highcaliberguns.com
> >>www.thesitterdowners.com
>
> >> Sent from my iPhone...
>

Aaron Jackson

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Mar 31, 2010, 6:18:02 PM3/31/10
to Anthony Martin, The Sitter Downers Core
I don't think that's what I said...or at least not what I meant to say. For all intents and purposes it's moor how much we pay now as neither of us agrees with how it is spent.

Aaron Jackson

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Mar 31, 2010, 6:20:59 PM3/31/10
to mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
I never actually admitted I was for taxes. The bottom line is that you
can't have your cake and eat it too. If the money I pay is supressing
you then so is the money you pay, AND since you are the one with huge
ethical/moral problems with it perhaps it is even more recumbent upon
you to stop paying them.

Aaron Jackson
www.highpriming.com
www.highcaliberguns.com
www.thesitterdowners.com

Sent from my iPhone...

Anthony Martin

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Mar 31, 2010, 11:47:25 PM3/31/10
to Aaron Jackson, mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
Whatever the bottom line is, why would it matter if you were for or
against taxes?

In fact, that's the first I have heard of it from you, so what
precisely do you mean by the "I never actually admitted I was for
taxes" statement?

On Mar 31, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Aaron Jackson <jackso...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I never actually admitted I was for taxes. The bottom line is that

mattress

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Apr 1, 2010, 8:58:03 AM4/1/10
to The Sitter Downers Core
"For all intents and purposes it's moor how much we pay now as neither
of us agrees with how it is spent."

So you are fine with being taxed as long as it is spent on something
that you agree with? Are you fine with being robbed if you know the
robber is going to spend that money on something you agree with? What
happens when the government changes and they spend it in ways you
don't agree with? Why give any group the power to take money from you?
If you want your money to be spent in a way that you agree with then
the best way to do so is to keep control over your money and spend it
how you want it to be spent.

On Mar 31, 10:47 pm, Anthony Martin <amarti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whatever the bottom line is, why would it matter if you were for or  
> against taxes?
>
> In fact, that's the first I have heard of it from you, so what  
> precisely do you mean by the "I never actually admitted I was for  
> taxes" statement?
>

> On Mar 31, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Aaron Jackson <jacksonaar...@gmail.com>  


> wrote:
>
> > I never actually admitted I was for taxes. The bottom line is that  
> > you can't have your cake and eat it too. If the money I pay is  
> > supressing you then so is the money you pay, AND since you are the  
> > one with huge ethical/moral problems with it perhaps it is even more  
> > recumbent upon you to stop paying them.
>
> > Aaron Jackson
> >www.highpriming.com
> >www.highcaliberguns.com
> >www.thesitterdowners.com
>
> > Sent from my iPhone...
>

Aaron Jackson

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Apr 1, 2010, 11:38:57 AM4/1/10
to mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
You both are missing my point...well, I don't actually think Anthony
is missing my point--he is just using this to pull me deeper into the
dialog. My only point is that it is inconsistent for Anthony to
include paying taxes as something statist are doing to keep him down
(even when the implication is that it is not what the statist in
question wants the money to be spent on) while at the same time he
continues to pay his taxes. I would go further and say that someone
that has such deep moral and ethical problems with paying taxes
because of all the evil they are used to facilitate should stop paying
their taxes even if it means there will be consequences. Further
still, it is interesting to note how black and white Anthony's beliefs
are (see FAQ), but this problem seems to put him squarly in the graded
absolutism camp. You have succeeded in pulling me deeper in.

Aaron Jackson
www.highpriming.com
www.highcaliberguns.com
www.thesitterdowners.com

Sent from my iPhone...

Anthony Martin

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Apr 1, 2010, 11:55:20 AM4/1/10
to Aaron Jackson, mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
Ok, let's not go deeper into the dialog.  Let's just stay on the surface.

In order to be inconsistent, I would merely have to stop paying taxes, right?  I must be non-compliant in order to avoid modifying my position, right?

And you don't think that's begging the question or anything, right?

See?  I'm staying on the surface.

Aaron Jackson

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Apr 1, 2010, 12:16:57 PM4/1/10
to Anthony Martin, mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
You could just remove the tax part of the dialog in your post and leave the rest...that is how we stay on the surface.

Anthony Martin

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Apr 1, 2010, 12:25:54 PM4/1/10
to Aaron Jackson, mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
How could I do that?  That implies that paying taxes has absolutely nothing to do with government having a monopoly on the use of force.  Is that your assertion?

How does government have a monopoly on the use of force without considering taxes in any way shape or form?

mattress

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Apr 1, 2010, 12:26:38 PM4/1/10
to The Sitter Downers Core
So you are saying that you agree with paying taxes even though they
are being spent to oppress Anthony, which you disagree with?

On Apr 1, 11:16 am, Aaron Jackson <jacksonaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You could just remove the tax part of the dialog in your post and  
> leave the rest...that is how we stay on the surface.
>
> Aaron Jacksonwww.highpriming.comwww.highcaliberguns.comwww.thesitterdowners.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone...
>

Aaron Jackson

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Apr 1, 2010, 12:42:51 PM4/1/10
to Anthony Martin, mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
Just leave it as it. You continue thinking thinking it is correct. I will keep thinking it is wrong. That's easy enough.

Aaron Jackson

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Apr 1, 2010, 12:43:35 PM4/1/10
to mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
No.

Aaron Jackson
www.highpriming.com
www.highcaliberguns.com
www.thesitterdowners.com

Sent from my iPhone...

Anthony Martin

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Apr 1, 2010, 12:58:36 PM4/1/10
to Aaron Jackson, mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
That type of rhetorical device (known as "agree to disagree") is flawed thinking.  Either something is correct or incorrect, followed by reasons why it is correct or incorrect.  I suppose there are rare situations where we find logical conundrums (like "This statement if false" that deserves a matching t-shirt), but I don't think we're dealing with something like that here.

So is that really what you think?  We're dealing with a logical conundrum?

Aaron Jackson

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Apr 1, 2010, 1:03:54 PM4/1/10
to Anthony Martin, mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
No.

Adam

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Apr 1, 2010, 1:03:10 PM4/1/10
to Anthony Martin, Aaron Jackson, mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
We can agree to disagree that it is flawed thinking. 

Sent from my iPhone

Anthony Martin

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Apr 1, 2010, 1:21:42 PM4/1/10
to Adam, Aaron Jackson, mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
It may be hard for someone like Matt to understand, who hasn't seen this dialog with these particular people for that long, but I am actually relieved we are at this point.

One of us holds a completely untenable position.  To get to the point where we have to "agree to disagree" on such a relatively simple postulate is pretty good, all things to consider.

I don't normally leave a discussion at "agree to disagree" because usually the topic is too complicated to leave it there.  But this one is rather simple and tuned.  The issue we were dealing with here is almost axiomatic, but I wouldn't go that far.

This has happened before on this very topic.  But we had a lot of other stuff mixed in like George Washington, Constitution, Whiskey Rebellion, Torri's History & Coloring Book Classes, et c.  This time, a lot of details have been stripped away and we only have this.

So maybe there's some arrogance I can deal with on my part when presenting the line of reasoning.  I'll certainly look into that.

So, thanks everybody.  I learned a lot.  I guess horse is officially pulp.

DeadHorseStick.gif

Aaron Jackson

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Apr 1, 2010, 1:37:47 PM4/1/10
to Anthony Martin, Adam, mattress, The Sitter Downers Core
No.
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