Radio 4 programme 'Greek Blues' Tuesday 8 July

[John K]

Radio 4 has listed a one-off programme called 'Greek Blues' which is
being broadcast on Tuesday 8 July from 1.30pm to 2pm. The programme is
supposedly about the history of Rembetika.

For those at work on Tuesday afternoon, or those outside the UK, most
Radio 4 programmes are available to hear on line for 7 days after the
programme is broadcast on this internet page:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml

This programme might be interesting. There was an article in the
London paper 'Evening Standard' about it today, with a picture of the
presenter, Pete Pahides, with Stelios Vamvakaris.

The BBC blurb says:

"Pete Paphides returns to Athens, the city where his parents grew up,
to chart the history of Rembetika – The Greek Blues.

Paphides, chief rock critic of The Times, grew up in a Greek chip shop
in Birmingham. His parents played him Greek blues or Rembetika – the
music they grew up with in Athens. Rembetika, played on violins, ouds
and bazoukis, accompanied by the most impassioned singing, is the
music of the lower classes in Greece and Asia Minor. It deals with
lost love, impending death, hashish, sex, prison, gambling and other
pursuits of the underworld, often played in dance rhythms.

In this one-off feature, Pete returns to Greece to seek the musical
and social roots of Rembetika and to find out why the Greek
melancholic melodies still haunt his waking hours."

John K

[Nikos A. Politis]

you might possibly listen to my voice, too, if you tune in this
program. Of course, if I were in charge, I would avoid connecting
rebetika to blues in such a provocative way. I can only accept some
sociological parallels but that's all. Anyway, the have promised me a
cd but if they forget, i will try your link anyway, John! Thanks a
lot!

[Tiffany D]

My patch chord and y adaptor will be very busy. *smile* Sounds like a
great show. Passing this onto Grigoris Maninakis.

Thanks for posting,
Tiffanitsa

[The_Walrus]

I enjoyed that, it was not bad at all. Nikos was good! He's right
about the claimed similarity with da Blooz, sociologically yes, but
musically not very similar at all.

[Mr. Narghile]

You're both right about the Blues connection...but as someone who has
often had to try to explain Rebetika in 25 words or less to someone
who has no clue, the Blues analogy at least is a helpful introduction.

[John K]

Just heard the programme on 'Listen Again' - it should be available
there for 7 days, and I hope the link works for those outside the
UK?:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml

I thought it was a good programme, and provided a generalised overview
of a complex subject! A few of the clips used (Kazantsidi song, never
on a sunday) were more laika than rembetika, but let's not open that
thorny subject!

Nikos - it was good to hear your voice, and you made significant
points! I would be interested in your thoughts on the finished
programme.

I agree that rembetika does not sound much like blues or jazz, but
there is a definite sociological connection. This is evident not only
in the lives that the musicians led (often outside the mainstream of
society, with their own set of codes and rules), but also in the
subjects they wrote/sang about; and the passion, truth and spontaneous
way they performed and recorded the music.

I am struck by the many stories we read about the generosity of the
remebetes. I was amazed at Rena Stamou's story about Rita Ambatsi
taking her in to the family. Speaking of the great Rita, does anyone
know why she didn't record after the War?

For those in the UK, the programme is repeated on BBC Radio 4 on
Saturday 12 July 2008 15:30-16:00

John

[Nikos A. Politis]

I also agree on the sociological connection between blues and rebetika
but this is not excuse enough for musicians to get together and play
bouzouki and guitar, each sticking to his familiar patterns and both
(audience too) thinking they are producing creative fusion.

Regarding Rita, she was forgotten after the war. But she recorded
many Demotika numbers.

[Tiffany D]

Well, I listened to the show this morning and taped it and am
listening again for some clarification. Anyway, it was quite
interesting. It was great hearing you Niko. *smile* It's nice to
finally put a voice to a friend. You mentioned that the music of the
refugees was not rebetika yet and I totally agree with you. But you
also said it fused with the "local urban music of the low level people
of Greece". I'm really curious what that music sounded like. Many of
us are only used to stuff starting from the 30's and later, and while
I think it's safe to say most of us know what the Smyrna sound is, not
all of us know the early Piraeus stuff. Also, that story about Crete
and the lyra was fascinating. I like how you set the record straight
when it came to the manges. Even Dalaras did that correctly. In any
case, I didn't know that he could speak English. I thought I saw
recently that he didn't. Maybe, he learned after that video? I was
also surprised that they started with him and not Stelios Vamvakaris.
lol That was a good point made about women and manges. *smile* How
true. Anyway, I know very little of the blues, but I suppose the
analogy fits to some degree, though as everyone said, not in sound.
What I didn't get was this. If the narrator was looking for
authentic music, why didn't he go to a koutouki in Thessaloniki? From
everything I've heard, that's where you'll find real rebetika, not the
big touristy places in Athens. I was very interested in the imagery
of the grammophone in the tekes. I was under the impression that 1.
manges couldn't afford them and 2. you wouldn't want to have too many
things in a teke lest the cops came. But then again, since a teke
could theoretically be in the basement of someone's house, I guess it
could work out. I found the interview with Rena Stamou to be really
enlightening. I know that she knew some of the greats but didn't
realise how much contact she had with them, even Batis! Something's
telling me I'd better find her number and give her a call. *smile*
Sounds like a wonderful person to interview or even to talk with.
Btw, I called Gail Holst Warhaft *wink* today but she wasn't there.
However, since she's not teaching for the summer, it's the perfect
time to call her and I'll do so tomorrow morning. I barely know who
Manos Hadjidakis is, but I found the story of the oscar funny. Why
did it cause him so much trouble? Maybe, it was because of the
subject of the movie? That last taximia by Stelios was beautiful, as
always and I loved what he said about his father. It touched me very
deeply. As a final note, I agree with that metaphor about rebetika
being like a sound track to a movie that you don't really know, which
explains why I'm still on this five-year-long search for a mangas.
Overall, very nice little piece of work. As for fusion, I tend to
agree, but since I admire a certain famous bouzouki player who mixed
the blues and rebetika, I won't go into too much detail.

Later,
Tiffanitsa

[Nikos A. Politis]

Hello Tiffanitsa,

The “local urban music of the low level” is what we call mangika,
koutsavakika, mourmourika etc. Typical “apo kato ap tis domates”, the
Spachanis recordings etc.

There are (few) places in Athens, too, where some sort of genuine
rebetika are played, but not in the summer. In Thessaloniki, too, the
koutoukia are closed for the summer.

You are probably confusing the recent BBC radio program with the old
BBC Dalaras video production. In the latter, towards the end, the
surrounding is a small bar with one guy on the bouzouki (sorry Dave, I
don’t know the name of the guy) and, if I remember right, a
grammophone. It was not a tekke. Of course the manges could not
afford buying a grammophone for themselves but a kaffeneion would and
did, ans so did the semi professional ‘grammophonitzides” who would
wander around with a (possibly borrowed) grammophone hanging on a belt
around their neck and a case with records to play.

It’s a good idea to talk to Rena Stamou. Here is the adress of Laura
Parfitt of the BBC, wife of Pete Paphides and in charge of the Athens
journey. laura....@whitepebblemedia.co.uk

You can say that I encouraged you to get in touch with her, she
certainly has kept Mrs. Stamou’s phone number.

Well, Chadjidakis was prized with an Oscar for Never on Sunday but
this was not his only international hit. The Perez Prado latin
orchestra (well, your parents were not even thinking of having
children in the future when he was making hits) also recorded
Carnation Girl, a mambo by Ch. and I also remember Brenda Lee singing
one of his, I think “All alone am I”. I ‘m not very sure the story
with the garbage bag is true.

Take care,

Nick

[Tiffany D]

No, this one was said here, during the interview with Stelios. (sorry
for spelling) "Gramophone recordings were being phrated in and the
songs of the day were being played in the tekedes, the hash dens of
Piraeus." I've never heard the music itself referred to as
koutsavakika or mangika, just the language, so this is a new one for
me. Also, who is Spachanis? It's usually pretty hard to stump me in
rebetika but I only vaguely remember his name. Maybe, it's just too
early for me to think properly.

Later,
Tiffanitsa

[Tiffany D]

Ah ha. *smile* I knew I saw his name somewhere. Just couldn't remember where.

Thanks,
Tiffanitsa

On 7/12/08, The_Walrus <christophe...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Spachanis, according to the notes in "Mourmourika" is a pseudonym. Its
> meaning is the person who cuts the hashish for the argile. It
> apparently refers to Giorgos Manetas, "a bouzouki pioneer about whom
> no biographical information is to hand". According to Markos, he was
> the first person to tune his bouzouki in the European DAD style
> instead of the traditional tunings favoured by the old guard.
>
> Don't you love it when somebody so significant is a complete mystery?
>
>
> >
>

[tambouras]

Sorry to be pedantic again. The short sequence of exchanges between
Walrus and Tiffany above is an excellent example of how conjecture and
myth so easily and rapidly attain the status of fact - precisely what
we are up against all the time when trying to talk seriously about
rebetika.

There's nothing that actually suggests that Spahanis is a pseudonym
for Manetas - as we know that it's Manetas playing bouzouki on the
disc, he would hardly be simultaneously present both with real name
and pseudonym. What Charlie Howard means in his notes (as I did in the
notes to 'Kale mana den boro' on Mortika where that other side of that
disc is reissued) is that Spahanis is the pseudonym of the otherwise
unknown singer. Manetas and Livaditis played bouzouki and tsimbalo
together on disc for another singer too - Kostas Nouros - as Nikos
pointed out a year or so ago.

What's more - Charlie Howard says that the word 'can be taken to mean'
the person who does the cutting. This is no more than a reasonable
hypothesis, not a statement of fact. One could perhaps equally advance
the hypothesis that a person happened to turn up in a certain group of
friends with some Isfahan hashish one day and happened to receive the
nickname - we all know how nicknames can arise from on-off events
among friends don't we?

In other words - we often simply have to accept that we don't know.

[The_Walrus]

I'm glad you clarified that. When one is not being defeated by the
total absence of sleeve notes, there they go, being either vague,
ambiguous, or even both at once. And I was "tired" and didn't spot it
was supposed to be two separate paragraphs. The 6 point type doesn't
help the aged, exactly, but in the presence of the blind I will not
base excuses on my bad eyesight. So I blame the sleeve notes.

[Tiffany D]

Thanks. I'm sure he didn't mean to perpetuate a myth here. But as
you said, it happens alot, and those of us who don't have access to
the material in question can only work with what's being presented. I
just checked
http://www.spectacularopticals.com/BER.html
and while I was right that I'd heard of Manetas, I did not hear the
name Spahanis.

[Nikos A. Politis]

Mayby I missed some posts? I cannot see any exchange of posts
betweeen Tiffanitsa and the Walrus and I don’t have the Chris Howard
cds handy at the moment. Anyway I would agree with Tambouras,
spachanis could easily be a nickname in a hash smoking environment,
although it refers to tobacco, not hash stuff: toumbeki spachani,
i.e. tobacco leaves from Isfahan, beloved quality tobacco. I never
saw anything connecting Manetas and Spachanis under the same person.

On Jul 13, 4:32 pm, "Tiffany D" <tiffani...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks. I'm sure he didn't mean to perpetuate a myth here. But as
> you said, it happens alot, and those of us who don't have access to
> the material in question can only work with what's being presented. I

> just checkedhttp://www.spectacularopticals.com/BER.html

> and while I was right that I'd heard of Manetas, I did not hear the
> name Spahanis.
>

[The_Walrus]

No, you missed nothing, Niko. I was wrong about something, and removed
the incorrect post. It wasn't really an interchange, I was just
blowing bubbles with the arghile.

[Nikos A. Politis]

Ok Chris, keep bubbling but mind you, the bubbles come from sucking
the smoke, not from blowing!

On Jul 14, 9:37 pm, The_Walrus <christopher.blackm...@btinternet.com>
wrote: