Mavra Matia Mavra Fridha

[kamyar]

I have heard about this song through many forums, i believe it is by
Markos? Is there something very special about it?
Does anyone have an MP3 they could post?
thank you!

[Tiffany D]

Here you go. This is one of my favourites and yes, it's definitely
Markos Vamvakaris, though others later covered it. *smile* I don't
know why it acted weird when I tried it. Just go to "download
original" if it doesn't work and you'll be able to get it that way.
http://www.divshare.com/download/4070513-9aa

Enjoy,
Tiffanitsa

[kamyar]

Thank you very much for the mp3! i understand why people love this
song!
Does anyone know the dromo for this song?

On Mar 20, 2:40 pm, "Tiffany D" <tiffani...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here you go. This is one of my favourites and yes, it's definitely
> Markos Vamvakaris, though others later covered it. *smile* I don't
> know why it acted weird when I tried it. Just go to "download

> original" if it doesn't work and you'll be able to get it that way.http://www.divshare.com/download/4070513-9aa
>
> Enjoy,
> Tiffanitsa

[Kriko]

I'd say a D Diatonic minor (http://www.btinternet.com/
~christopher.blackmore/rebetiko/road_diatonic_minor.html)

[Tiffany D]

When I asked Spiros, he simple said minore aplo (tonos on the o). I
asked him about the dromos, but he just said it was a minore. I'll
show him this one and see what he says. Interesting.

[Nikos A. Politis]

It's a minore but with a tendency to often assume nihavent behaviour,
when the G (for a tonica in D) turns to G sharp (especially in the
instrumental section).

Tiffanitsa, if the word diatonic is the one that confuses you, just
ignore it: while anatolian music can be in a diatonic (tones and
semitones only) or a chromatic mode (includes three - semitone
intervals too), a minor is always diatonic, never chromatic.

[Tiffany D]

Thanks. No, it didn't confuse me, especially after your explanation.
*smile* I was looking for the proper Greek terms for the dromos and
the keys etc.

[Nikos A. Politis]

Well, if you succeed, please do pass the information over, I am also
looking for proper terminology without success so far!

On Mar 22, 5:10 pm, "Tiffany D" <tiffani...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks. No, it didn't confuse me, especially after your explanation.
> *smile* I was looking for the proper Greek terms for the dromos and
> the keys etc.
>

[Alexandru Aleman]

Hey!

I love this song as well, just hear for the first time a few days ago.
Does anyone have the lyrics. English translation would be great as
well :-)

[Kriko]

From kithara.vu:

Μαύρα μάτια, μαύρα φρύδια

Μουσική/Στίχοι: Βαμβακάρης Μάρκος

Μαύρα μάτια, μαύρα φρύδια, κατσαρά μαύρα μαλλιά
Άσπρο πρόσωπο σαν κρίνος και στο μάγουλο ελιά
Άσπρο πρόσωπο σαν κρίνος και στο μάγουλο ελιά
Μαύρα μάτια, μαύρα φρύδια, κατσαρά μαύρα μαλλιά

Μαυρομάτα μου για σένα εκατάντησα τρελός
Θα πεθάνω, δεν αντέχω, έχω γίνει φθισικός

Πόνους έχω εγώ κρυμμένους μες στα φύλλα της καρδιάς
Με τα μαγικά σου μάτια, όταν φως μου με κοιτάς

Τέτοιαν εμορφιά ποτές μου, αχ, τσαχπίνα μου γλυκιά
δεν την έχω απαντήσει μέσα σε όλο τον ντουνιά

[kamyar]

can someone verify these chords to the song?
http://www.kithara.vu/ss.php?id=MTExMDAwNTEz

are they correct? they seem almost tooo simple.

[tambouras]

Hi Kamkar

I hope that this somewhat lengthy answer, which goes beyond your
immediate question, is of value to you and others on the forum. I will
be very interested to hear what other musicians on the forum, Greeks
and non-Greeks, think of my ideas.

In my view of things, your question highlights a central and
fascinating theme, to which there are no absolutely 'correct' answers.
This is because in modal musics the various pitches of a given mode
(dromos, maqam, dastgah, raga &c) have musically and emotionally
perceptible hierarchical relationships to each other and to the tonic,
without the need for, or involvement of, triadic harmonisation. The
tonic is a more or less fixed baseline to which everything else
relates, the ground one stands on. The integrity and 'meaning' of the
modal melody are completely independent of harmony in the Western
sense. The dromos-makam-dastgah systems differ in one important aspect
from the Indian raga system - they can modulate to new tonic centres
within one piece/performance, whereas a raga maintains the same tonic,
even in a 'garland of ragas' where the musician plays various ragas in
sequence.

When harmonisation is introduced in a modal song, it will either
sensitively affirm the tensions of the melody without drawing
attention to itself, or it will, whether intentionally or not, draw
attention to itself as an equal, rather than subordinate, parameter -
saying for example 'look at me, aren't I a pretty/dramatic/tragic
chord?' This is particularly noticeable in more contemporary ways of
harmonising Ousak and Hetzaz. Another aspect is of course that the
pitches of a modal melody may differ microtonally from the pitches of
Western triads, resulting in unavoidable dissonances whose
significance will depend om the musical set of the musicans and
listeners. Take Iovan Tsaous 'Eleni I Zondohira' for example, which
uses a neutral second very noticeably.

In other words - when harmonisation is introduced in modal music there
is often more than one choice available depending upon the (conscious
or unconscious) musical ideals of the musicians. The question is -
should the harmonisation be 'audible' as a component in the musical
structure of the song, or should it simply support the modal tensions
of the melody as unobtrusively as possible? In rebetika I would
venture to say that all 'authentically sounding' rebetika (and
dimotika) is harmonised on the principle of unobtrusiveness. During
the later development of Greek popular music, with various new musical
influences, such as on the one hand the import of North American and
Latin American elements by Hiotis and others, and on the other the
development of the 'entechno' genre, inspired by the Western classical
musical language and schooling of Hadzidakis (even if he was mainly an
autodidact) and Theodorakis (who studied at the Paris Conservatoire),
Western harmony has gradually claimed a more front-line role in Greek
musical language. The results of this are easily observed if we
compare Markos' original 1930s version of Frangosyriani with the 1960s
version arranged by his sons, or with the version arranged, almost
recomposed, by Xarhakos and sung by Bithikotsis on the LP 'Markos O
Daskalos Mas' in the early 70s.

There is another aspect which complicates matters here - the
coexistence, for well over a century, of Western and Eastern musical
languages and styles within the popular musics of the former Ottoman
territories - which were given names at the time - 'alafranga and
alaturka'. Markos himself refers to the former as 'evropaïka'. In
fact, in his aftoviografia, Markos (due to a fault of memory?) asserts
that the early bouzouki player Manetas just played 'evropaïka' on
tetrahordo (!!) - which doesn't tally with what we hear of Manetas's
playing with Spahanis on that 1931 disc. But it is clear that the
sophisticated musicians from Asia Minor who came to Greece in the
1920s were often equally versed in 'Oriental' and 'Western' musical
language, in depth. The Piraeus musicians like Markos did not seem to
have that sort of musical knowledge.

As far as the original Markos recording of Mavra Matia Mavra Frydhia
goes there are certainly not more than two chords used, as given in
kithara.vu. Exactly where the A (or A7 chord) will sound best is
another question. My impression is that the notes e and g in prominent
positions, and the cadential phrase f e g f f e e d d a d, suggest the
dominant (a or a7) chord. But if the song were to be played as I
suspect Markos might have composed it, with just bouzouki and
baglamas, it would still sound fine with no chord changes at all.

To put this all very simply - I think it is a musically sound
philosphy when playing modal music and including harmonic instruments,
that 'when in doubt don't change chord'. However - the nature of your
doubts will be quite different if you have grown up within a modal
world or within the world of Western harmony.

In 35 years of playing Greek music, from the age of 24, but with a
background exclusively in Western music up to my teens, I have to
admit that finding the right chords and the right moment to play them
is still occasionally difficult, whereas my impression is that native
Greek musicians will often do this effortlessly, without even seeming
to have to think about it very much.

Fianlly - to prove that this can even be difficult for Greeks - listen
very carefully to the guitar accompaniment by Sophocleos Michalaidhis
on Ioannis Halikias' Minore Tou Deke (on JSP rebetika 1 disc C track
6, timing 2:19-2:24). Halikias is implying an F major chord with his
modal modulation here, but the guitarist isn't ready or prepared for
that. He just doesn't know what chord to play, and almost stops
playing! But during the rest of the piece he shows a fine sensitivity
in the timing of his chord changes between D minor, G minor, A seventh
and the diminished chord.

Perhaps it is reasonable to suggest that the Minore stands out as a
unique piece which is an exception to much of what I have said above
in that it is truly at the same time both modal and dependent upon its
implied harmonies being played clearly and expressively.

[kamyar]

you highlight a problem that i find very often!
Let me explain my situation first. I am young, 15, but i play my
native persian music and rembetika on guitar and bouzouki, for my
friends and also at small concerts.
Some songs, i play on bouzouki and sing (solo) others on guitar with
singing (solo).
I've come to realize exactly what you point out, which is that modal
music can easily sound great or terrible with the addition of chords
(i sight a lot of popular greek tetrachordo bouzouki music for the
horrible stuff). Chords truly put the music into a set tone and
creates a very distinct, and almost bland mood.
However, the reason i use guitar for some songs is that it often
enhances a song with a very simple melody (one of them for example,
the old classic: ya mustafa). So often i find myself making a decision
when i choose a song to learn, do i try to pick out a melody to the
song for bouzouki, or put chords to it?
But thank you very much for that information! i am still a student of
rembetika and people like you are the greatest of help.

[Mr. Narghile]

Well said Tambouras.
Another aspect of Rebetika guitar back up is not so much "which"
chord, but "how much" chord. In other words, how much of the triad is
audible....the chord can obviously be strummed in a full, strong
manner. Or it can be brushed so lightly that it is barely audible. Or
it can be dampened with the palm of the picking hand or by altering
pressure with the fingering hand. Or the chord can be broken up by
interspersed bass runs that either echo the melody or lead from chord
to chord. Or just a couple of notes from the chord are heard.
There are plenty of examples of all of these techniques. I've heard it
said that the strumming of the chord should not really be audible but
a random sample of early Markos recordings provides many examples
where the chord is strummed in a loudly and clearly.
Alternately, if we listen to any of the Peristeris-Skarvelis
recordings (with singers like Kavouras, Roukounas, Kazimatis) the
guitar's bass runs are constantly weaving in and out of the melody,
the chords can be still be heard in places but are de-emphasized.
It's interesting to note though, in all these cases the guitar is
really providing a bass line, much like the role of the oud would....