6 Weeks on Everyman: What am I doing wrong?
jeeves
I'm in need of some assistance. My wife and I (both 22) have been on
Everyman for just over a month and a half now and we are still plagued
by patches of deep tiredness and "brain fog" that nothing seems to
help.
I understand that Everyman takes quite some time to adapt to, but the
tired patches don't seem to be improving and if anything seem to have
worsened since they first started around week 3/4. I did at least
expect that things would improve gradually from week 2/3 onwards. To
be fair, the "awake" patches (generally the afternoon/evening) got to
the point of feeling normal and alert a few weeks back and have
remained that way ever since. For example, I'm very rarely tired in
during the 2pm-7pm period and do weight training during this time with
no problems. If just one of us was having these tired patches I would
just assume that perhaps polyphasing was just not for them, but with
both of us experiencing the same thing I really do think we must be
getting something wrong.
The rest of the time I generally feel either a bit tired and groggy
(like only getting 6 or 7 hours sleep and needing 8 on Mono), or am
uselessly tired to the point of needing to walk aimlessly around the
house just to avoid sitting down. I've tried all sorts of things to
make these tired patches more bearable, but generally they just seem
to start and end around the same times each day and nothing I do makes
much difference. I've tried extra naps (even 2 extra naps has
negligible effect), micro naps (5-10 mins) and caffeine. The only
thing I've found to be very effective is short bursts of exercise,
just 15 seconds or so to get your heart rate slightly elevated. These
virtually eliminate the "brain fog" for around 20-30 mins following,
but seem to lead to another tired patch two or three hours later.
Are there any successfully polynappers who do quite intense workouts?
I do HIIT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-
intensity_interval_training) three times a week in the morning and
weights each weekday afternoon (one muscle group each day). Is it
possible that this is simply too much to cope with on a polyphasic
schedule? Sometimes I think it might be, but at other times I think
that surely the yachters who pioneered the Uberman technique would be
working a lot harder than I am, and on a continuous basis. I certainly
haven't noticed any difference in recovery times.
Other than the occasional issue with alarm clocks and a planned
"Reboot" at the one-month mark (where we slept through to our first
nap (7 hours), oversleeping has not really been an issue. We rarely
oversleep our naps as we can wake each other up, and are prevented
from oversleeping our core by a 5am work meeting each morning (one
hour after we get up). While getting up (especially from core sleep)
is usually unpleasant, for the past month it has not been getting up
that has been the problem, it's been avoiding the temptation to take
"extra" naps during tired patches that is the challenge. As I've said,
these extra naps rarely do any good, but are obviously very
tempting :)
I posted a similar query to this group a couple of weeks ago. Back
then I was mostly looking for strategies for getting through the tired
patches, assuming that if we stuck with it long enough they would
disappear automatically. Now I'm really looking for a way to eliminate
or begin eliminating them as they don't appear to be improving. We've
tried: Shorter Naps (19-20 on the clock), Longer naps (23-25 on the
clock), 1/2 hour more core sleep, 1/2 hour less core sleep, caffeine
and extra naps. The only thing that has eliminated the tired patches
for any length of time was our planned reboot.
Our schedule is:
CORE: 1am-4am
NAP: 8am-8:25am
NAP: 1pm-1:25 pm
NAP: 8pm-8:25pm
You may notice this is similar to the 2-5, 9, 2, 9 schedule that
Puredoxyk follows (to the best of my knowledge).
The second question is, how long should I stick this out before I can
safely say it's not working? Two Months? Three Months? Six Months? At
what point can I say "Ok, this isn't just a long adaptation, it
actually isn't working"?
Any suggestions are much appreciated.
Thanks,
Brendan.
Michael Turner
This was an excellent post. There's one point I might take issue with.
"Sometimes I think [HIIT - High Intensity Interval Training) might be
[too much], but at other times I think that surely the yachters who
pioneered the Uberman technique would be working a lot harder than I am,
and on a continuous basis."
Continuous, maybe, but "a lot harder"? It depends on what you're
measuring as "harder." HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) is for
development, not maintenance. I don't think any serious solo yachter
goes to sea without having hit an acceptable plateau in *development* --
by the time you cast off, it's really too late to develop more. If
anything, you're probably reconciled to some slight deteriation during
a long sojourn, and have calculated a plateau from which you can afford
to drop a little by the time you put into port again. It wouldn't
surprise me if HIIT does increase the need for sleep -- or really, a
need for full *rest*, which the sleepiness might merely be a symptom of.
I think you've hit on a good experiment to try: reduce the intensity,
maybe down to the point where you're even feeling a little
endorphin-withdrawal effect. Don't go cold turkey on exercise, just do
less and see if it helps after a week. Of course, my theory's pretty
useless if your wife is having the same problem, but isn't doing HIIT.
Then again, there's alway individual variation.
At some point, your experiences might make a good addition to the
"polyphasing as a couple" entry in the Google Group polyphasic files.
-michael turner
http://www.transcendentalbloviation.blogspot.com
Doug Johnson
I found when I was doing my core 1-4 that I was a basket case. Turns out that 3-6 works great for me. I found it by trying to be sure I was sleeping when everything was telling me I was tired.
My schedule
3-6A
12P-25
5P-25
11P-25
Not trying to say that this schedule is superior, only that it works for me. You know when you are tired, try to make yourself be asleep then, not according to what you think your schedule should be. Just an idea.
jeeves wrote:
Hi Everyone, I'm in need of some assistance. My wife and I (both 22) have been on Everyman for just over a month and a half now and we are still plagued by patches of deep tiredness and "brain fog" that nothing seems to help. Our schedule is: CORE: 1am-4am NAP: 8am-8:25am NAP: 1pm-1:25 pm NAP: 8pm-8:25pm You may notice this is similar to the 2-5, 9, 2, 9 schedule that Puredoxyk follows (to the best of my knowledge). The second question is, how long should I stick this out before I can safely say it's not working? Two Months? Three Months? Six Months? At what point can I say "Ok, this isn't just a long adaptation, it actually isn't working"? Any suggestions are much appreciated. Thanks, Brendan.
Doug Johnson
"When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." - R. Buckminster Fuller
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Axel.Schneider
On 24 Jun., 23:42, jeeves <jeevesat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm in need of some assistance. My wife and I (both 22) have been on
> Everyman for just over a month and a half now and we are still plagued
> by patches of deep tiredness and "brain fog" that nothing seems to
> help.
>
> I understand that Everyman takes quite some time to adapt to, but the
> tired patches don't seem to be improving and if anything seem to have
> worsened since they first started around week 3/4. I did at least
> expect that things would improve gradually from week 2/3 onwards. To
> be fair, the "awake" patches (generally the afternoon/evening) got to
> the point of feeling normal and alert a few weeks back and have
> remained that way ever since. For example, I'm very rarely tired in
> during the 2pm-7pm period and do weight training during this time with
> no problems. If just one of us was having these tired patches I would
> just assume that perhaps polyphasing was just not for them, but with
> both of us experiencing the same thing I really do think we must be
> getting something wrong.
>
> The rest of the time I generally feel either a bit tired and groggy
> (like only getting 6 or 7 hours sleep and needing 8 on Mono), or am
> uselessly tired to the point of needing to walk aimlessly around the
> house just to avoid sitting down.
Net even at the start of adapting to everyman I had such evil times
(maybe the last 30-60 minutes before the core). Since this did not
improve for the last weeks, something is definitly preventing from
adapting you. I see two possible problems:
a) physical stress: as I went running during poylphasic sleeping I
noticed that it increases the need for sleep. I had the impression
that the tired body does not sleep properly, but just is physically
recovering from the exhaustion. As a consequence, I stopped every
straining physical tasks during adaption and only start slowly after
beeing adapted.
b) mental stress: I had during vaious adaption phases often the
problem that the sleep deprivation reached a degree where it prevented
me from sleeping properly, thus building a vicious circle. In such a
case I would recommend to sleep as much as you need in the night for
several days with or without quitting your naps. You will retain most
of your gained ability in polyphasic sleeping, but restful naps will
return. After some days or weeks without sleep deprivation start over.
It will be easier each time.
> The second question is, how long should I stick this out before I can
> safely say it's not working? Two Months? Three Months? Six Months? At
> what point can I say "Ok, this isn't just a long adaptation, it
> actually isn't working"?
I would say after two weeks without a noticable progress, its time to
stop hoping it will improve by just continuing, and to consider what
has to be changed.
-Axel
Greg
It's a known issue that if you exercise hard, then nap 20 minutes later, you're gonna have problems.
I had this last week.
Exercise right after a nap, preferably.
The same advice goes for food and digestion. Give your body time to digest before napping.
Just some left field thoughts.
--
`Don't make me come down there` - God
jeeves
Thanks for the great responses. Very encouraging :) I'll respond to
everyone here rather than in separate posts.
> Continuous, maybe, but "a lot harder"? It depends on what you're
> measuring as "harder." HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) is for
> development, not maintenance. I don't think any serious solo yachter
> goes to sea without having hit an acceptable plateau in *development* --
> by the time you cast off, it's really too late to develop more. If
> anything, you're probably reconciled to some slight deteriation during
> a long sojourn, and have calculated a plateau from which you can afford
> to drop a little by the time you put into port again. It wouldn't
> surprise me if HIIT does increase the need for sleep -- or really, a
> need for full *rest*, which the sleepiness might merely be a symptom of.
Fair call. To be honest I don't know a lot about yachting (only what I
know from trying it once or twice), but what you're saying makes
sense.
> I think you've hit on a good experiment to try: reduce the intensity,
> maybe down to the point where you're even feeling a little
> endorphin-withdrawal effect. Don't go cold turkey on exercise, just do
> less and see if it helps after a week. Of course, my theory's pretty
> useless if your wife is having the same problem, but isn't doing HIIT.
> Then again, there's alway individual variation.
Perhaps before trying that, I will try a slightly less-scientific
version. I do my cardio (HIIT 3 times a week, jogging twice) in the
mornings at either 4am or 6am, so perhaps increasing the length of the
8am nap following it would be beneficial. I believe I could fit at
extra 20 or 40 minutes into my schedule to accommodate a longer 40
minute or 1 hr "nap". In any case, I have had a "messy" weekend in
terms of sleep due to some traveling so I'll spend the earlier part of
this week getting properly settled back in and then look into some
experimentation.
Incidentally, Christina also does HIIT, although our workout schedules/
routines do not directly coincide.
Hopefully, if exercise _does_ turn out to be the issue we'll have
learned something others can use. For the record, I didn't exercise
during the first 2 and a half weeks of adaptation, partly because I
figured it would be counter productive, and partly because I was too
exhausted anyway. :)
> At some point, your experiences might make a good addition to the
> "polyphasing as a couple" entry in the Google Group polyphasic files.
Yeah, Christina has been thinking about adding to that page for a
while actually. Once we overcome this final hurdle we'll definitely
take the time to add some experiences.
> I've been at this a little less time than you, but am not having the
> same difficulty and I'll give you what worked for me. This doesn't mean
> it will work for you, but....
> I found when I was doing my core 1-4 that I was a basket case. Turns
> out that 3-6 works great for me. I found it by trying to be sure I was
> sleeping when everything was telling me I was tired.
We have been considering switching to a schedule one-hour behind yours
(i.e. core 4-7am) for a while actually. So far I've mostly been
looking at it from a schedule point of view, i.e. Advantages of being
up early vs advantages of being up late. Both very attractive, but not
attractive enough to make Uberman/Dymaxion an option. :)
Could you describe the issues you were having before you changed?
> Net even at the start of adapting to everyman I had such evil times
> (maybe the last 30-60 minutes before the core). Since this did not
> improve for the last weeks, something is definitly preventing from
> adapting you.
Believe it or not, this is infinitely more comforting to hear than
"don't worry it will all come right in the end if you just stick it
out" :)
> a) physical stress: as I went running during poylphasic sleeping I
> noticed that it increases the need for sleep. I had the impression
> that the tired body does not sleep properly, but just is physically
> recovering from the exhaustion. As a consequence, I stopped every
> straining physical tasks during adaption and only start slowly after
> beeing adapted.
This is exactly what I tried to do. I figured there was no point in
trying to exercise during the first couple of weeks so I didn't start
back up again until I began to feel nicely awake most of the time (and
apart from the tired patches, generally I _do_ feel pretty good most
of the time). What sort of physical tasks do you do?
> b) mental stress: I had during vaious adaption phases often the
> problem that the sleep deprivation reached a degree where it prevented
> me from sleeping properly, thus building a vicious circle. In such a
> case I would recommend to sleep as much as you need in the night for
> several days with or without quitting your naps. You will retain most
> of your gained ability in polyphasic sleeping, but restful naps will
> return. After some days or weeks without sleep deprivation start over.
> It will be easier each time.
Thing is, other than these tired patches and some generic low-level
tiredness during other parts of the day, I haven't actually felt sleep
deprived for weeks. All my naps have seemed to go well except for
those I take in the car (very rare), and also the 1pm naps which I was
too awake for during my "long naps" experiment. I hear what you're
saying though, and indeed, the only time we had a few days completely
free of tired patches was directly after out 1-month reboot where we
slept for 7 hours.
> Isn't the problem perhaps that you're exercising too close to your nap time?
> It's a known issue that if you exercise hard, then nap 20 minutes later,
> you're gonna have problems.
> I had this last week.
> Exercise right after a nap, preferably.
>
> The same advice goes for food and digestion. Give your body time to digest
> before napping.
>
> Just some left field thoughts.
I don't _think_ this is the problem, unless the effect of the exercise
extends for longer than I suspected and I'm not noticing the sub-
optimal naps. Previously, my runs were at 6am, with the nap at 8am,
and my weights were somewhere between 3pm and 5pm, with the nap at
8pm. Perhaps the move to running at 4am right after I get up will
help. I should also point out that I only do HIIT 3 times each week,
but that the tired patches occur most days. Another possibility is
that it's the weight-training which I do 5 times a week (it's not
actually as hard-core as it sounds, each session only lasts about
30-45 mintues as I do one muscle group each day). My body might be
demanding extra time to accommodate muscle development.
I've also been making sure to always have meals directly after naps,
or at least no less than 2 hours before the next nap.
---
OK, so taking into account what you have all said, here's my plan of
attack:
Mon-Wed - Get nicely settled back into sleep schedule after a messy
weekend. It doesn't seem to take very long anymore.
Thurs-Thurs - Assuming tiredness hasn't magically vanished, do a 7-day
trial of longer 1-hour naps after morning runs.
Friday-Friday - If that doesn't work, try adding 1.5 hours to core
sleep. Although I am loath to do so as this screws up my schedule.
Switching to the other schedule we considered (more like Doug's) is
not feasible right at this point as I have a work meeting at 5am...
that is what happens when your boss is "supportive" of your weird new
lifestyle change ;-) Still, finishing work at 2 or 3 pm is very nice.
Thanks for all the good advice, by all means keep the feedback
flowing :)
Brendan
David Baldwin
schedule variations over the past 7 months and have found the schedule
Doug posted below to fit my needs rather nicely ~ with a couple
variations:
Variation 1: I take a nap at 10PM as opposed to 11PM. For whatever
reason I just feel ready to go to bed then. Also for the 10PM nap I
sleep for 40 minutes as opposed to 20 minutes. Rather than making me
seriously groggy, I find that the xtra time gives me 'legs' to make it
through the night relatively comfortably.
Variation 2: If I haven't had any schedule disruptions for a week or
so (and I have many due to work, family, and other responsibilities) I
find I can replace the 12 PM and 5PM naps with one 40 minute nap
around 3PM. Having only one interruption in the middle of the day as
opposed to two can be quite advantageous.
Now about the tough times (for me that can happen anywhere between
11:00 PM and 3:00 AM): I find that scheduling physical activities
during this time is quite helpful. I'm an avid runner and running an
hour or so during these difficult hours helps me get through the time
with no discomfort or only mild discomfort. Also I find these hours
are great for practicing music. Playing the horn represents a
combination of physical and mental exercise that seems to work nicely
during those difficult hours.
imthunder
to test different times but it may help. No one can predict which nap
times will work for them without practically testing them. your core
is 1-4? Try 2-5 or 3-6 for a few weeks or determine when you are
feeling groggy and close your naps in around that time. Good Luck!
Doug Johnson
Doug
David Baldwin wrote:
Now about the tough times (for me that can happen anywhere between 11:00 PM and 3:00 AM): Also I find these hours are great for practicing music. Playing the horn represents a combination of physical and mental exercise that seems to work nicely during those difficult hours. Da...@word2life.com
Kaspian
Also, since becoming polyphasic, my husband is much less disturbed by
sounds & interrupions when he sleeps. (If he wakes up, he simply
falls asleep again.) We discovered early in our polyphasic experience
that he can play piano and I can play horn at any hour without
disrupting the other person's sleep.
Greg
In my case, my napping MP3 cuts out pretty much all sound
There could be a nuclear explosion and I wouldn't know until the wave hit me
Greg
Website: http://www.placebo.serv.co.za
Wolfger
> But if he wakes up at all, he's already damaged his sleep cycle ;)
> In my case, my napping MP3 cuts out pretty much all sound
> There could be a nuclear explosion and I wouldn't know until the wave hit me
Used that for the first time this morning. Very nice and relaxing, but
I just couldn't fall asleep. Possibly the drive into work was too
energizing (top down, and J. Giles blasting), and another factor was
probably that I felt a little chilly (reclined in the Jeep with the
top down on top level of parking garage). Also, I still heard some
background noises, but I suspect that has more to do with the ear buds
I was using than anything else (well, I think I had the volume too
low, too).
--
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88
Kaspian
On Jun 28, 4:55 am, Greg <placeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But if he wakes up at all, he's already damaged his sleep cycle ;)
Perhaps, but neither one of us seems to be any less rested after an
interrupted nap; we doze back off and sleep until the nap is over, and
we don't get unusually tired later, either. Horn & piano playing
generally don't wake us up during core sleeps.
I love it when he's practicing as I lay down for a nap-music to fall
asleep to!