Modafinil revisited

[Jack]

Hey folks, it's been a long time since I visited this group, and for
that matter polyphasic sleep, but I came across some Provigil (the
only available patented[?] Modafinil in the US market) the other day,
and thought the topic could use another visit.

I saw some discussion about it on the old uberman forum, but I'm still
curious - as far as I could find, there was no solid consensus on the
issue, and Modafinil's use and availability has skyrocketed since the
discussion ended.

Anyways, I was on a trip with my family over Veteran's day weekend,
and I don't see my family too often since some more difficult classes
in school. Long story short, I decided to see the family during the
day and work during the night, and I [legally] acquired some
Modafinil.

Let me tell you, this stuff is incredible. No jitters, no agitation,
nothing. It was as if I could simply control how sleepy I was with my
mind. I didn't try, but I'm pretty sure that I could have napped at
any time if I wanted to. My dosage was 100mg, and then another 100mg
about three or four hours later.

Now, I haven't tried polyphasic sleep in a while, but Christmas break
is coming up, and I'm thinking about giving it another shot. I'm
fairly certain my doctor would be supportive considering the nature of
my work (data processing is a mind-numbing nightmare). So my questions
are the following:

1: Has anyone here tried Modafinil in conjunction with polyphasic
sleep?
2: How did Modafinil affect adaptation/sleep latency?
3: Any other noteworthy effects related to polyphasic sleeping?

[spludge162]

Apologies that this is going to be a long post, and unavoidably a
somewhat disjointed one too, but this place is pretty starved for info
at times and it's nice to be able to contribute some (albeit
anecdotal).

I obtained some Alertec a couple of years ago when the topic last came
up - but it proved bad timing as we had to move house suddenly and my
focus was on that. After this post jogged my memory, I checked and saw
it was coming up to its expiry date, and that there was a cricket
match starting at 3:30am I wanted to catch, and thought why the hell
not see if I can make use of this stuff!

There is some background to bear in mind on me: I am about the *worst*
candidate for any kind of odd sleeping pattern possible. I have been
wanting to do polyphasic ever since I heard about it, and even gave up
caffeine a few years ago in preparation, but I eventually abandoned
the idea due to the following reasons:

1) I am incapable of napping. In fact, no matter how tired I am at
night, it takes me at least half an hour to get to sleep - and more
usually an hour. I concluded that if I was napping six times a day
with uberman and it took me 20 mins to get to sleep, 20 mins sleeping
and 20 mins feeling groggy after, then that's 6 hours a day the
schedule takes up and that's not terribly different to monophasic!
(Although I perform best on 7 hours+ sleep a night, like a lot of
people I frequently get 6 hours during the week and catch up a bit at
the weekends)

2) I have thought about what I'd do with more time if I had it, and
concluded that the thing I'd most like to do with it is sleep! That
doesn't make me a particularly good candidate for attempting a reduced
sleep schedule really :p

3) My diet is terrible – high protein, high sugar, high fat – and I
know that doesn’t help with polyphasic sleeping.

Anyway, that's all an aside to emphasise that when I thought I'd
attempt sleeping only 3 hours last night, waking at 3am, I thought
would be a pretty challenging first test. It should be born in mind
that today is Friday so I am already at my most sleep deprived state
of the week.

The next bit with the results will be in a slightly bloggish format.

---------------------------

10pm: Took a 100mg pill. It reportedly takes about an hour before an
effect is felt

12am: Couldn't honestly feel any different. Fell asleep slightly
quicker than usual if anything, at 12am.

12am-1am: Woke at 1am feeling like I had slept for ages - I thought it
was at minimum 3am. Was pretty shocked to see I had only slept an
hour. Had had a lucid dream (discussed more later). Felt absolutely no
sleepiness on waking, but closed my eyes to go to sleep again.

1:10am-1:40am: Once again felt like I had slept longer; think I had
another lucid dream, but don't remember from this distance. Slept
again.

1:50am-2:20am: Had another lucid dream. Once again awoke with
absolutely no sleepiness; and when I say no sleepiness I mean I felt
less sleepy than I do having been up for a couple of hours after
having had a full 8 hours sleep. By this time I was thinking just how
amazingly cool this all was and wasn't interested in going back to
sleep.

---------------------------

In terms of pure 'stimulant effect', I would compare Alertec to half a
cup to a cup of coffee. Nothing more significant than that. But it was
a totally surreal experience: I was completely able to sleep as and
when I chose, but I had absolutely zero sleepiness.
I am aware that my energy levels are lower, but at my very worst this
afternoon I am still far less sleepy than I feel on a typical
afternoon monophasic. It should also be born in mind that the typical
schedule for Alertec is 100mg on waking and 100mg at midday, so as to
keep the sleepiness at bay during the day, but (presumably) to allow
it to return at night; I only took the initial 100mg because my goal
wasn't just to not feel tired today but also to get as much info as
possible on the full 'curve' of Alertec's effect, including any
comedown. With caffeine, not only does it only loosely mask sleepiness
(for me it doesn't really stop me feeling sleepy, it just stops me
falling asleep - the exact opposite of Alertec), I feel like hammered
cr*p the morning after until I have had my next ‘fix’. I’ll relate in
a later post if I feel any extreme comedown (but Jake would probably
have mentioned if there was).

The lucid dreaming was an unexpected side-effect. I have only had
maybe six lucid dreams in my entire life (I am 35 now), and of those I
only took control of the dream maybe twice. I didn't take control of
any of the lucid dreams I had today but that's not unusual for me.
Instead I just spent the dreams aware that I was dreaming, and in the
later dreams even aware that I had lucid dreamed previously, and just
sort of spent the time 'waiting to wake up' and dreaming how when I
woke up I'd be watching the cricket match (which then appeared in
front of me in my dream).

If I had to guess, I’d guess the lucid dreaming was symptomatic of how
light a dream state I was in – i.e. how close to being awake I was due
to the Alertec.

---------------------------

11am+: I would say that right now the effect of the Alertec is much
reduced (it has a 10-12hr half life). Energy and concentration wise I
would say I feel as if I had had about 4.5h-6h sleep (but bare in mind
I am quite functional with only 4.5h sleep as a one-off). But I am
nothing like as *sleepy* as if I had only had 6h sleep - probably
because of the zero levels of sleep inertia. (The more the day is
progressing, the more it feels like 4.5h rather than 6h; probably the
Alertec wearing off.)

---------------------------

My conclusion from all this (although feel free to draw your own) is
that:

a) Alertec will be absolutely *magic* at dealing with the dreaded 4am
'dead zone' that scuppers 99% of transitioners.

b) Alertec, unlike caffeine, does little to nothing to disturb
napping. Establishing a napping schedule is just as easy as without
it, and oversleeping during a nap is probably much much less likely
too.

c) Alertec does little to nothing to remove the physiological need for
sleep; I suspect that if I took Alertec and didn't sleep at all for
ten days I'd still die :p I was aware of my lower energy levels at 4am
even though I had zero zero sleepiness.

I honestly think that anyone who can nap at will could move over to an
Everyman or Uberman schedule without the need for two weeks of
‘vibrating beds’ and ‘water alarm clocks’ using Alertec. I don't think
I'd advise long term use to cut down on sleep requirement because I
think running a permanent sleep dep would still have adverse
physiological effects - but for a transition I think it would be
*absolutely magical*. I only took one 100mg when two are recommended,
and up to four in a day are allowable, after all, and I got
incredible, unbelievable results.

After such a glowing reference I feel it would be irresponsible of me
not to point out potential negative side effects too though. It *is* a
prescription drug not an over-the-counter drug here in the UK after
all. (I suffered no side-effects though). So here goes:

---------------------------

The most common side-effects observed with modafinil, as compared to
placebo, when prescribed in the recommended doses for the approved
indications, are as follows:

Common
-Headache (34% vs 23%)
-Nausea (11% vs 3%)

Uncommon
-Nervousness (7% vs 3%)
-Insomnia (5% vs 1%) [found this side-effect amusing for our
purposes!]
-Anxiety (5% vs 1%)
-Anorexia (4% vs 1%)
-Dry mouth (4% vs 2%)

Rare
-Chest pain (3% vs 1%)
-Hypertension (3% vs 1%)
-Tachycardia (2% vs 1%)
-Vasodilation (2% vs 0%)
-Dizziness (5% vs 4%)
-Paresthesia (2% vs 0%)
-Pharyngitis (4% vs 2%)

It should not be taken if there are cardiovascular or cardiac
problems, or if you are pregnant or taking contraceptives, and should
not be taken with alcohol.

Also note that for long term use people have mentioned getting regular
liver enzyme function checks. Please do not engage in self-medication
without thoroughly researching the risks, and I wouldn't recommend
taking any drugs in combination without checking with a pharmacist or
doctor.

Finally, from this experience I would conclude that Alertec is not a
replacement for a good night's sleep prior to a long drive etc.
Although you aren't nodding off, reflexes and concentration are still
impaired.

---------------------------

Apologies again for the long post, and in many ways I am simply
expounding Jack's statement

"Let me tell you, this stuff is incredible. No jitters, no agitation,
nothing. It was as if I could simply control how sleepy I was with my
mind. I didn't try, but I'm pretty sure that I could have napped at
any time if I wanted to."

to like a thousand words! But I didn't want to leave anything out
so... meh! Twas your choice to read it! :p

[Blooop!]

nothing major here, but when I took modafinil during exam season I found it very hard to get to sleep sometimes.  I think that it would totally ruin any polyphasic attempts.

--
(a suitable comment/statement/compliment/question/declaration of
love/declaration of hate/political party slogans etc etc  for the end
of an email)

[spludge162]

On Nov 16, 2:26 pm, Blooop! <blo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> nothing major here, but when I took modafinil during exam season I found it
> very hard to get to sleep sometimes. I think that it would totally ruin any
> polyphasic attempts.

I definitely think that mastering napping first would be recommended.
I can't nap so as much as I wish I could experiment with poly sleeping
it wouldn't fly.

I can see why you say what you say, and having a lower dose in the day
than at night might work out better. Indeed, there is no reason to
take as much as 100mg if you don't need it. All you need is as little
as it takes to keep you from crashing. You aren't trying to stay awake
24/7 after all, you are merely trying to keep from sleeping out of
schedule.

It strikes me as a tool to use - rather like people use caffeine now -
except it has a much more powerful effect with much less of a downside
- for me anyway.

Gonna experiment more over the next couple of weeks and see what else
I can learn.

[spludge162]

Did a second test last night.

- Took 100mg at 12am

- Slept 12:30am-1:30am (the second time I have slept a 'strange'
length. I am without fail very regular in my sleep cycles; Although I
usually wake a couple of times every night it's always on a 90min
cycle (a little longer earlier in the night and a little shorter later
on). Modafinil must be doing something to disturb that: Given that I
dreamed at the end of it I must have missed part of my deep sleep I
guess? That's less than ideal if that is a long term effect.

- Slept 1:45am-3:25am when I was woken by my alarm. Here I did have a
bit sleep inertia but, hey, I was woken by my alarm at 3:25 in the
morning - give me a break! Was still much less sleep inertia than I
normally get when woken up by my alarm at 7:45am though, for
comparison.
I turned on the tv to watch the cricket but England wasn't batting so
I decided not to bother. Remembering what Bloop said about finding it
hard to get to sleep sometimes I thought I'd see how easily I could go
on to sleep a whole night

- Slept 3:45am-6:30am Definitely slept a bit worse than I normally
would; moved around a lot more; pillow on the floor etc. I could
definitely see that if you had any worries on your mind or such you'd
find it hard to drop off - what with the lack of sleepiness and all.
When I woke up at 6:30am naturally, I didn't have any interest in
sleeping more, even though I could have slept at least another hour.

Today I feel very similar to how I expect I would given a 6hr sleep
following no buildup of sleep debt: ie fine.

[AM]

I think its definately worth a go. Low dosages would probably work
quite well. Its worth noting modafinils use as a treatment for
narcolepsy and other sleep disorders. Olmifon (adrafinil) would
probably work well also

[Jack]

I've read mixed reports about adrafinil. From what hear, you need to
take higher doses more often throughout the day, and the side effects
are more pronounced. I assume it gets the job done, though.

The tough thing for most people here is probably acquiring modafinil,
considering it's a prescription drug. Without insurance (another
hindrance to many people here, I'm sure) it's something like 10 bucks
for a 200 mg pill which is certainly more than your morning Starbucks.

Does anybody whose tried modafinil with polyphasic sleep have some
experience they'd like to share? Christmas is closing in, and It'd be
helpful if I understood if modafinil would work by then.

[spludge162]

> The tough thing for most people here is probably acquiring modafinil,
> considering it's a prescription drug. Without insurance (another
> hindrance to many people here, I'm sure) it's something like 10 bucks
> for a 200 mg pill which is certainly more than your morning Starbucks.

Yeah, that's not far off what it cost me for my 'stash': $3.80/100mg
pill - another reason why long term use isn't really practical...

[louis Slattery]

both are non-perscription here in the uk, fairly hard to obtain tho. I thought it was expensive but its about equal to $3.4 for 100mg

 

With adrafinil iv never even noticed the effects. To me it just seems to stop sleepiness. I use it when i want to be awake but not in a stimulated state. 100mg of modafinil gives me a significant buzz. Nothing like a caffine buzz and im not really fond of the effect. even 50mg can be uncomfortable sometimes

 

[spludge162]

Final comment for now.

Yesterday tried it a new way round: Slept from 12:30-3:30am, then took
100mg on waking up. It did take more than an hour for the effects to
ramp up so it's no good as an 'emergency measure' to prevent an
imminent crash

Took 50mg at about 3:30pm, and it was easily enough to prevent any mid-
afternoon sleepiness and, unlike the previous occasion where I got
very very sleepy at about 7:30pm after only sleeping 1h40, I was wide
awake right through midnight. Could easily have stayed awake longer if
I had chosen, but I equally had no problems getting to sleep.

I could easily see this stuff tricking people attempting polyphasic
sleeping into simply staying awake all the time and hence never
adapting. Unfortunately, as I say, I have never been able to nap, so
as much as I wish I coud test adapting I will sadly have to leave that
to a genuine pioneer... :/

[Blooop!]

I didn't find it that difficult to buy (Live in UK).  I searched on forums and found a place in india that sold them fairly cheaply.  I think they worked out about 50 pence per pill.  I am not posting the site in case its against the rules (is it?). 

[p.c.]

Does your body adjust and require more Modafinil to achieve the same
effect over time, like caffeine?

[spludge162]

Every report I have read says that the body develops little to no
tolerance of Modafinil, nor is it physiologically addictive (two sides
of the same coin in many ways).

Like anything from tv to WoW to polyphasic sleeping itself it could be
psychologically addictive, but there appears to be nothing in addition
to that - which is why it is not a classified drug.

[Scott Helvick]

It's not classified?  I don't know where you are, but in the US, I'm pretty sure it's a Class IV controlled substance.  Though it must have been added to that list fairly recently, since I'm still finding sources that claim it is *not* controlled.  (Adrafinil, however, is not controlled, to the best of my knowledge.)

[Scott Helvick]

spludge162, are you still taking the Modafinil?  I'm especially curious to hear (from you or anyone else with experience) more about the effects of Modafinil and its ilk on polyphasic sleep patterns, especially during adaptation.

[p.c.]

I found this on the side effects of the drug:
http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=20717&name=PROVIGIL

It's not a wonder drug overall (average rating 3.6/5), though is for
some.