[Passport] bilge pumps

[Brian]

Looks like I may need to install a new bilge pump and just wondering
how other P40's are set up. Access to the low area of the bilge is
impossible. One person suggested attaching the pump to a pole that you
could lower down to the bilge floor, and then fix the pole up higher.
This has the advantage of being able to easily access the pump as
well. Don Casey recommends 2 pumps: one low capacity (500 gph) in the
bottom of the bilge wired directly to the battery, with a 1/2 inch
hose, which would limit the amount of water flowing back down the
hose. This would keep the bilge fairly dry. Then another higher
capacity pump mounted higher, with a manual or float switch, for the
big flood. This makes sense but I'm not sure how it would all fit on
the P40 (and my boat's 2000 miles away). Thanks in advance for your
input!

Brian Moloney
Toloa, 1984 P40

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[Michael]

Through a very embarassing set of events, I am having to redo the bilge
pump. Which is fine, since the switch had died.

I have had a pump on a stick for a while, and that works pretty well.
However, I am thinking of doing what Bill did and using a diaphragm pump
located above the bilge, as either the lower (low capacity) or upper
(high capacity) pump.

I have a 3000 gph centrifigul pump that I never installed, but this may
be just the time. It did not get installed because there was almost no
clearance to get it in.
Of course, you do not want to use a check valve with such a pump because
of the flow constriction, but a vented loop is mandatory.

For a switch, I have gotten one of the new Johnson solid state switches,
and I am hopeful that it will be awesome.

This might be a good time to test your manual pump. Mine had a torn
diaphragm.

Michael
Cayenne

[William Ennis]

As I said, I used a piece of 2 inch wide aluminum stock and bent it into a "Z" shape. At the lower end is the pump, at the upper end it sits on the muffler box. I used two small wing bolts to attach a small "T" bar on the upper horizontal part of the Z so that it doesn't fall into the bilge. Works well.

I use a Shure pump since it has both magnetically coupled impeller and float switch. It can't jam and the motor is completely sealed. All the wire is marine grade tinned Ancor so it's given no trouble.

Just don't hit anything, regardless of the pumps that you install.

Bill Ennis
SV Wings

[Bill Schmidt]

OK, OK, OK! Most of you are not old enough to remember back in the last
century when I wrote extensively deploring the "joys of pumps in the bilge"
of the Passport 40. Does no one remember my biblical descriptions of the
joys of getting the pump out of the bilge? About how much fun it is to
remove yet another of those diabolical float switches which, with
predictable regularity,gasps, gurgles and drowns in the slime and gore of
said bilge? Are we condemned to repeat in perpetuity the cleaning out of
the pump intake jammed with clunks,crumbles and cringles of the junk which
regularly migrates downward like doomed lemmings? Which of us WAS there to
rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic?
Putting the pump and the float switch in the bilge sucks , Ladies and
Gentleman...or more typically, doesn't suck enough. I advocate junking the
whole lot. In Wind Witch the pump is mounted in the engine compartment ABOVE
the engine. So is the Groco diving bell switch - with just the diving bell
and the intake strainer in the bilge, mounted on a metal plate which has a
metal rod on it. The rod attaches with clamps to the wood of the galley.
Simple to remove to clean. Neither the pump nor the float switch is
submerged and neither can drown. None of the wiring gets wet. None of it
corrodes. And, oh do I miss all those nose bleeds from hanging upside down
in the bilge with my shoulders jammed into that damn little bilge access
door.
Billy Manana

[Louis Raphael]

I have done a similar thing as Bill did.
My bilge pump is located in a locker in the main salon, right near the
thru hull where the bilge goo exits.
There is a barrier between the pump and the contents of the locker.
The float switch is on a stick and platform in the bilge.
The pump is one of those kind with the the belt sometimes used for water
pressure. I would get the info on it but I am currently on another boat
anchored in a creek off Kennedy Space Center awaiting the 1420 launch of
the shuttle (I added that part to make everyone jealous).
Louuis and Molly
Buttermilk

Bill Schmidt wrote:
> OK, OK, OK! Most of you are not old enough to remember back in the
> last century when I wrote extensively deploring the "joys of pumps in
> the bilge" of the Passport 40. Does no one remember my biblical
> descriptions of the joys of getting the pump out of the bilge? About
> how much fun it is to remove yet another of those diabolical float
> switches which, with predictable regularity,gasps, gurgles and drowns
> in the slime and gore of said bilge? Are we condemned to repeat in
> perpetuity the cleaning out of the pump intake jammed with
> clunks,crumbles and cringles of the junk which regularly migrates
> downward like doomed lemmings? Which of us WAS there to rearrange the
> deck chairs on the Titanic?
> Putting the pump and the float switch in the bilge sucks , Ladies
> and Gentleman...or more typically, doesn't suck enough. I advocate
> junking the whole lot. In Wind Witch the pump is mounted in the engine
> compartment ABOVE the engine. So is the Groco diving bell switch -
> with just the diving bell and the intake strainer in the bilge,
> mounted on a metal plate which has a metal rod on it. The rod attaches
> with clamps to the wood of the galley. Simple to remove to clean.
> Neither the pump nor the float switch is submerged and neither can
> drown. None of the wiring gets wet. None of it corrodes. And, oh do I
> miss all those nose bleeds from hanging upside down in the bilge with
> my shoulders jammed into that damn little bilge access door.
> Billy Manana

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[Brian]

Those of you who mounted the pump high: When the pump switches off,
doesn't all that water in the hose up to the pump run back into the
bilge? I understand a check valve prevents this, but they restrict
flow and get clogged up. And thanks for all the replies!

Brian

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> - Show quoted text -

[Michael]

That's undoubtedly true, but it's also true of a centrifugal pump down
in the bilge.

I think that the secret is for at least the "deep" pump to use a
somewhat narrower diameter hose, so there's less of a column of water to
goosh back. Hmmm.

As we talk about this, I'm thinking that my ideal setup will be two
electric pumps.

1. Small diameter, lower capacity pump, takes water from the deepest
part of the bilge. Small hose. This will either be a diaphragm pump in
the cabin or a centrifugal pump. If I get whacky I might use a check
valve, but hopefully not.
2. Large capacity centrifugal system a bit higher in the bilge. Bigger
hose, vented loop. This is the crash pump.

Separate switches, of course, for each of these.

Will check the boat this weekend to see if the Bio-sok really ate all
the damn oil. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it did.

This will leave one pump as surplus, so perhaps I will build a fish pond.

Michael

[Brian Moloney]

Exactly the setup I was considering. Don Casey has an article about this at
the BoatUS site. However, it will require a new through-hull for the higher
capacity pump? And wouldn't you need a vented loop on the smaller pump as
well?

Brian

[Michael Moradzadeh]

Yes to the vented loop.  I have so many darned through hulls, I may simply find one to share....  Maybe a sea chest.

m

[Bill Schmidt]

I like the idea of the smaller diameter hose for the deep bilge pump. And Michael is right - in all setups w/o a check valve the volume of return water is the volume up to the top of the vented loop. Be careful about shared thru hulls though. They can act as a back siphon too easily.

    As for the "big" backup pump, I think a little analysis of "big" needs to be done. In all the discussions of "big" leaks that I've read, the message has been that NONE of the electric pumps are adequate. You need a clutch linked, motor driven pump, or better yet, a terrorized 1st mate with a bucket. On Wind Witch we have an Edson high capacity mechanical pump mounted on a board with 4" fire hoses on intake and outlet. One gallon/stroke! It is so big it has to sit out on the cabin sole when used or, better, mounts across the cockpit seats forward of the pedestal. The intake hose reaches into the bilge, the outlet hose goes over the side. Big bronze sucker. Doesn't corrode, etc. I am told you don't need an intake strainer, but I still have one - big & heavy. The other embellishment for "big" leaks is a bottle of amphetamines for the 1st mate as motivation to use the bucket and the helmsman to use the autopilot to steer while manning the Edson.

    Billy Manana

[Robert C. Young]

The cheapest, easiest, higher capacity, engine driven pump is a bronze Y valve connected to the engine raw water intake which can be shut and the other branch is connected to a similar sized hose to the bottom of the bilge. This set up doesn’t need any maintenance. As long as the engine runs, it probably will last longer than me or my first mate with the manual pump.

 

From: passpor...@googlegroups.com [mailto:passpor...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Schmidt
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:26 PM
To: Michael Moradzadeh; Brian Moloney
Cc: Michael; Passpor...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Passport] Re: bilge pumps

 

I like the idea of the smaller diameter hose for the deep bilge pump. And Michael is right - in all setups w/o a check valve the volume of return water is the volume up to the top of the vented loop. Be careful about shared thru hulls though. They can act as a back siphon too easily.

[Brian]

Does anyone have any pictures of their bilge pump setups (while I look
into the amphetamine/manual pump thing...)?

Brian

On May 13, 11:44 pm, "Bill Schmidt" <b...@windwitch.com> wrote:
> OK, OK, OK! Most of you are not old enough to remember back in the last
> century when I wrote extensively deploring the "joys of pumps in the bilge"
> of the Passport 40. Does no one remember my biblical descriptions of the
> joys of getting the pump out of the bilge? About how much fun it is to
> remove yet another of those diabolical float switches which, with
> predictable regularity,gasps, gurgles and drowns in the slime and gore of
> said bilge?  Are we condemned to repeat in perpetuity the cleaning out of
> the pump intake jammed with clunks,crumbles and cringles of the junk which
> regularly migrates downward like doomed lemmings? Which of us WAS there to
> rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic?
>     Putting the pump and the float switch in the bilge sucks , Ladies and
> Gentleman...or more typically, doesn't suck enough. I advocate junking the
> whole lot. In Wind Witch the pump is mounted in the engine compartment ABOVE
> the engine. So is the Groco diving bell switch - with just the diving bell
> and the intake strainer in the bilge, mounted on a metal plate which has a
> metal rod on it. The rod attaches with clamps to the wood of the galley.
> Simple to remove to clean. Neither the pump nor the float switch is
> submerged and neither can drown. None of the wiring gets wet. None of it
> corrodes. And, oh do I miss all those nose bleeds from hanging upside down
> in the bilge with my shoulders jammed into that damn little bilge access
> door.
>     Billy Manana
>
> --

> Passport Owners Associationhttp://passportyachts.org

[rhp...@verizon.net]

I've tried several methods to pump the bilge.

 

I started with a Parmax 4 pump mounted high in the engine cabinet, with a float switch.  Hated it. The pump bladders tired often and, I tired of buying rebuild kits.  I switched to Shurflo manifold pumps, but had the same problem.  I then added a secondary self-contained pump in the bottom of the sump,  thinking this would give the big pump a break, but the manifolds dried out.  Grrr.

 

Finally, I switched to a cartridge pump (West Marine) that sits in the bottom of the sump, with a separate float switch. It has worked well for the past two years. I removed the little pump simply because the hose and wire octopus drove me batty.

No matter what you do, something will have to sit in the muck.  My view is that a pump that lives in the muck has a clear understanding of its role, thus it performs better and it doesn't have to worry about sucking - it's all push.

 

If this doesn't work, I'm going to fill the bilge with cement and keep a mop nearby.

 

With respect to the muck, we use it to grow alfalfa sprouts for our salads (or so our guests are led to believe).  Explains the green bilge, and sounds eco-responsible.

 

Two tips -

 

1- Make the hose and wires long enough so that you can reach in, grab the hose and pull the pump to the salon floor to work on the pump.

2. Make sure your tetanus shots are up to date, it's a dangerous place down there.

 

Bob Peahl

Anthem P40/70

May 14, 2010 12:40:37 PM, rcy...@optonline.net wrote:

The cheapest, easiest, higher capacity, engine driven pump is a bronze Y valve connected to the engine raw water intake which can be shut and the other branch is connected to a similar sized hose to the bottom of the bilge. This set up doesn’t need any maintenance. As long as the engine runs, it probably will last longer than me or my first mate with the manual pump.

From: passpor...@googlegroups.com [mailto:passpor...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Schmidt
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:26 PM
To: Michael Moradzadeh; Brian Moloney
Cc: Michael; Passpor...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Passport] Re: bilge pumps

I like the idea of the smaller diameter hose for the deep bilge pump. And Michael is right - in all setups w/o a check valve the volume of return water is the volume up to the top of the vented loop. Be careful about shared thru hulls though. They can act as a back siphon too easily.

    As for the "big" backup pump, I think a little analysis of "big" needs to be done. In all the discussions of "big" leaks that I've read, the message has been that NONE of the electric pumps are adequate. You need a clutch linked, motor driven pump, or better yet, a terrorized 1st mate with a bucket. On Wind Witch we have an Edson high capacity mechanical pump mounted on a board with 4" fire hoses on intake and outlet. One gallon/stroke! It is so big it has to sit out on the cabin sole when used or, better, mounts across the cockpit seats forward of the pedestal. The intake hose reaches into the bilge, the outlet hose goes over the side. Big bronze sucker. Doesn't corrode, etc. I am told you don't need an intake strainer, but I still have one - big & heavy. The other embellishment for "big" leaks is a bottle of amphetamines for the 1st mate as motivation to use the bucket and the helmsman to use the autopilot to steer while manning the Edson.

    Billy Manana

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[Jean-Philippe Gaillard]

I keep hearing about these Bilge Pump issues, and I seem to have none, so I figured I'd share my super simple setup with you all.

 

I have a Rule 3700 Pump down there with a normal Float switch. Both are mounted on a half inch board that sits in the bottom of the bilge and avoids the biggest pieces going into the pump or jamming the float switch. The board is nearly the whole size of the floor, but not completely.

 

Next to the board with the pump and switch I have the Manual pump from the cockpit, a Henderseon pump, that goes all the way to the bottom. When my bilge fills up and the Rule 3700 can't empty the whole bilge (there seems to be a small amount that the pump sucks up and then lets go down again - the length of tubing basically) I simply use the manual cockpit pump to clean up.

 

Both tubes going to the bottom have "connectors" that you can quickly disconnect and raise the whole pump out of the bilge if you need to.

 

Above the Bilge pump I have a Westmarine High Water alarm. Basically my bilge pump is on "off" and that is my way of getting alerted if there is a problem. Also when I am on the move, I activate the bilge pump sometimes on Auto to see if it is pumping. usually it only pumps for 2 secs, which means I have a drip down there that  have to take out with the manual pump. It is usually oil from the Perkins 4108... normal leaking. Not EPA compliant but hey... whatever works.

 

The most important thing is to track any other reasons for buildup in the bilge. When there is a water leak or whatever you have to trace it. It is better than to get the bilge pump to work perfectly. If there is a serious leak, whatever pump is not going to save the boat anyway. If you have rust or growth in the bilge then it is a real problem. Avoid milk or any diary product going down there. Carry bleach. If you have rust, it's salt water and you have a leak. I chase leaks like a maniac and have none I think. Only in very heavy seas I have drips coming in through the windlass but they get caught by the drain in the head which is taken out by the sump pump.

 

I also carry a manual enormous edson foot pump. That is the most helpful to have if you need to get water off the boat quickly.

 

Anyway.  Hope this helps someone.

 

PS: never changed a cutlass bearing. How does that work. you have to take the whole drive shaft out? Is that a major project? Where is the cutlass bearing?

[Bill Schmidt]

No, but my wife did take a picture of my butt when I got stuck in that damn
little door trying to get the pump out.....you don't want to see it, trust
me.

[rcy...@optonline.net]

i have a similar set up but i always leave the pump on auto since a properly adjusted stuffing box will be a source of the salt water drip unless you have the dripless gland. given the amount of oil a perkins leaks, i use the oil "diapers" under the engine and buy in bulk from www.mcmaster.com.

Regards

Bob

> manifoldsdried out. Grrr.

> returnwater is the volume up to the top of the vented loop. Be

> careful about
> shared thru hulls though. They can act as a back siphon too easily.
>
> As for the "big" backup pump, I think a little analysis of
> "big" needs
> to be done. In all the discussions of "big" leaks that I've
> read, the
> message has been that NONE of the electric pumps are adequate.
> You need a
> clutch linked, motor driven pump, or better yet, a terrorized
> 1st mate with
> a bucket. On Wind Witch we have an Edson high capacity
> mechanical pump
> mounted on a board with 4" fire hoses on intake and outlet. One
> gallon/stroke! It is so big it has to sit out on the cabin sole
> when used
> or, better, mounts across the cockpit seats forward of the
> pedestal. The
> intake hose reaches into the bilge, the outlet hose goes over
> the side. Big
> bronze sucker. Doesn't corrode, etc. I am told you don't need an

> intakestrainer, but I still have one - big & heavy. The other