[Passport] Relocate Holding Tank?

[Michael]

Even with my new wonderful electric head, I still get a little bit of
backflow from the holding tank.

More likely from the hose, but whatever, it's icky.

This is one of the tanks located behind the shower and elevated so it
can drain into the sea where appropriate.

Anyway, I am thinking that one solution would be to locate the tank
lower. Like under the floorboards or something. That way, the natural
flow would be "out" instead of "in".

Thoughts?

Michael Moradzadeh
Cayenne
1984 Passport 40

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[Bill Schmidt]

You shouldn't be getting ANY backflow. Although the plumbing setup isn't
ideal and there are better ones, the problem is with the outflow valve on
the toilet, not the holding tank, for sure.
Billy Manana

[Ernie Reuter]

Yes.....I would agree with Billy......it sounds like the joker (or whatever its called) in the outgoing pipe right at the toilet that is getting tired and crudded up. Take that apart and replace it and you might see good results....

Ernie

Iemanja

BTV.......Vermont

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Ernie Reuter

www.clothncanvas.com
Tel: 802-658-6826

[Michael]

Okay, maybe you are right.  It's just that it's new, and I didn't think that... oh never mind.

[Ernie Reuter]

Certainly doesn't hurt to check there first. Its a lot easier job than relocating tanks, replacing hoses....etc....etc..

Good luck...

Ernie

[Craig Newton]

Michael,
Does your setup have one motor and two pumps side by side on the same shaft?
Does the odoriferous material come down into the bowl from the flushing
ports under the rim? I was having this problem until I replaced this setup
with a new Jabsco unit last year. The macerator side was leaking internally
into the flushing side. I now have a macerator attached to the bowl and a
separate flushing water pump connected to the seavalve via a loop.
Installation is not difficult with two pumps but you might as well replace
the hoses while you're at it, and add a vacuum breaker loop on the seawater
side. How do you get suction through a vacuum breaker loop you might ask?
The loop is in the cabinet behind the sink. I stick my finger over the hole
when I use the seawater flushing pump. However normal procedure is to use a
pitcher of fresh water for flushing instead. Hope this helps

Craig Newton
Mujo
86 P40

[Michael]

No, it's a macerator pump out, pressurized water in. Fresh water! No
stinkies!

That's a good guess, but does not apply here, I think.

I like your solution to the suction. I suppose you could add a solenoid
valve to vent the loop too. Until it fails and you all die.

No, maybe finger is best.

Michael

[Matt Sponer]

Hi Michael,
The Wilcox Crittenden head we had always backflowed a little. So we
pumped a lot of air through the head after it flushed, to clear the
hoses and leave nothing in them to backflow.

I think there is enough room for a holding tank underneath the toilet.
The box it sits on is pretty big, especially if you don't mind pulling
up the floor underneath it or raising the head slightly to make more
volume.

But of course I agree with everyone else that a one-way head is the
best idea, if such a thing exists.

Matt.

[P. Sherwood]

_Definitely_ check/replace the joker valve. Its sole purpose in life
is to prevent backflow.

Moving the holding tank, adding lots of complicated plumbing and
pumps and switches and valves ??? Yow. The mere thought of doing so
makes my head hurt.

Phil
s/v Cynosure
Bahia de Caraquez

[ChinaDoll]

Mr. M,

I'd look at the vent. When we changed over to the new Tecma back in
2004, I had to increase the original tank vents to handle the super
flush volumes produced by the new electric-Ts. But I had the freedom
to redesign the holding tanks too with new Ronco's, so I now have two
--that's two-- vent hoses on each tank.

I now used the new plastic Forespar vents thru the hull and aligned
them side-by-side so one points slightly forward and down and the
other points slightly backwards and down. Even while sitting at the
dock, this produces a significant flow differential across the vents,
to help keep the tanks from going antiarobic (and producing the stinky
sulfur smell) and if I paint one red and another blue, it would look
like the old Chevy emblem! (But I didn't...).

The two-vent system works well but I'd at least look into at least
changing out the old zmac vents to the new Forespar ones; the old ones
get very restricted by the pot metal corrosion accumulation and build-
up that can slow the vent down significantly --especially if you now
have a new electric-T.

The dual vent is worth the change-up if you get the chance... It has
work so well that even JB's LB would approve 'cause there's no
detectable smells...

-Rob.

[rhp...@verizon.net]

With respect to flushing, I have two basic rules:

 

1.  The effort required to evacuate the head should be proportionate to the effort invested in filling the head.

2.  In all respects, the material should make a one way trip.

 

We use a Lectrasan and Raritan head.  We installed an electric Raritan headpump, but I removed the electric pump a few years ago - used a lot of juice and just not as thorough as doing it by hand.  Besides, I found that some guests were leaving the head a bit too soon for me - if you spend 10 minutes filling the head, you should spend 10 minutes flushing, not to ensure a complete flush, but to ensure that the next occupant doesn't enjoy your aromas.  I recognize that a metered approach would be appropriate if using the holding tank - I'd probably restrict guests.

 

With respect to backflow - it sounds like the joker valve, unless your intake thru hull is too close to your discharge thru hull (and you discharge over board.  Once the material is past the joker, it should not be reinvited to the head.  I'm not aware of any point in the system where intake water would mix with discharge water unless perhaps a valve o-ring has failed.

 

Bob Peahl

Anthem P40/70

May 19, 2010 03:19:21 PM, cne...@earthlink.net wrote:

Michael,
Does your setup have one motor and two pumps side by side on the same shaft?
Does the odoriferous material come down into the bowl from the flushing
ports under the rim? I was having this problem until I replaced this setup
with a new Jabsco unit last year. The macerator side was leaking internally
into the flushing side. I now have a macerator attached to the bowl and a
separate flushing water pump connected to the seavalve via a loop.
Installation is not difficult with two pumps but you might as well replace
the hoses while you're at it, and add a vacuum breaker loop on the seawater
side. How do you get suction through a vacuum breaker loop you might ask?
The loop is in the cabinet behind the sink. I stick my finger over the hole
when I use the seawater flushing pump. However normal procedure is to use a
pitcher of fresh water for flushing instead. Hope this helps

Craig Newton
Mujo
86 P40

-----Original Message-----
From: passpor...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:passpor...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 12:11 PM
To: Passport Owners
Subject: [Passport] Relocate Holding Tank?

Even with my new wonderful electric head, I still get a little bit of
backflow from the holding tank.

More likely from the hose, but whatever, it's icky.

This is one of the tanks located behind the shower and elevated so it can
drain into the sea where appropriate.

Anyway, I am thinking that one solution would be to locate the tank lower.
Like under the floorboards or something. That way, the natural flow would
be "out" instead of "in".

Thoughts?

Michael Moradzadeh
Cayenne
1984 Passport 40

--
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org To post to the group,
use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com To reply to
just the author, just use "reply:
For more options, go to
http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en

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[Larry Rovin]

I have a related question/problem.  In the V berth configuration the holding tank is outboard of the shower.  The vent line runs behind the shelves above the sink to the previously mentioned pot-metal fitting.  The vent is thoroughly clogged and I think the fitting is the cause.  I cannot figure out how to access from the inside.  Has anyone tackled this?

[Allen Cooper]

Another aspect of the head.Does anyone use a bypass of the tank for
direct discharge where appropriate. It looks like it would be easy on
the P40. I did this on my old boat and it worked well. Many odors come
from stuff staying in either the intake or outflow with bacteria
causing decay. A little vinegar helps with the out flow and prevents
some of the calcific build up that eventually blocks the out flow.
Allen
"Harmony"

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[William Ennis]

We don't have a bypass valve, but the holding tank in the forward compartment has a through hull connected to the bottom. When we're out, we just leave the sea cock open.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
Sinclair Lewis

[Craig Newton]

I may have been lucky, but I was able to resolve the plugged vent issue by cleaning out the vent fitting at the top of the tank.  I used a piece of heavy wire and twirled progressively larger drill bits between my fingers to clear the blockage.  By the way, does anyone have a good way of knowing when it's time to pump out?

Craig Newton

Mujo/P40

---

From: passpor...@googlegroups.com [mailto:passpor...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rovin
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:04 AM
To: rhp...@verizon.net; cne...@earthlink.net
Cc: m...@yachtpc.com; Passpor...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: RE: [Passport] Relocate Holding Tank?

I have a related question/problem.  In the V berth configuration the holding tank is outboard of the shower.  The vent line runs behind the shelves above the sink to the previously mentioned pot-metal fitting.  The vent is thoroughly clogged and I think the fitting is the cause.  I cannot figure out how to access from the inside.  Has anyone tackled this?

 

--

[Larry Rovin]

Unfortunately my problem is not at that end.

 

From: Craig Newton [mailto:cne...@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 3:18 PM
To: Larry Rovin; rhp...@verizon.net
Cc: m...@yachtpc.com; Passpor...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: RE: [Passport] Relocate Holding Tank?

 

I may have been lucky, but I was able to resolve the plugged vent issue by cleaning out the vent fitting at the top of the tank.  I used a piece of heavy wire and twirled progressively larger drill bits between my fingers to clear the blockage.  By the way, does anyone have a good way of knowing when it's time to pump out?

Craig Newton

Mujo/P40

 

---

From: passpor...@googlegroups.com [mailto:passpor...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rovin
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:04 AM
To: rhp...@verizon.net; cne...@earthlink.net
Cc: m...@yachtpc.com; Passpor...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: RE: [Passport] Relocate Holding Tank?

I have a related question/problem.  In the V berth configuration the holding tank is outboard of the shower.  The vent line runs behind the shelves above the sink to the previously mentioned pot-metal fitting.  The vent is thoroughly clogged and I think the fitting is the cause.  I cannot figure out how to access from the inside.  Has anyone tackled this?

 

[Bill Schmidt]

On Wind Witch, we have a v-berth with the head/shower on the port side. The
holding tank is in the shower stall on the port side behind a bulkhead. The
head is on the port side facing starboard. Outside of it are two lockers,
one above the other. The waste pipe from the head enters the lower locker,
courses through a bulkhead and attaches to the side of the holding tank near
the top. The exit pipe from the holding tank is at the bottom on the same
side and runs aft to the thru hull (which has a seacock). The vent pipe is
on the top of the tank and runs to the vent fitting on the hull directly.
The vent fitting is bronze and has a screen on the underside of it. There is
a standpipe exiting the top of the holding tank that attaches to a deck
fitting above for pumpout use. OK., the reason for the detailed description
of the standard installation from Passport Yachts is so as to be able to
critique its problems as I have experienced them and as I have modified this
foul smelling, belching, cantankerous, diabolical, monster.
First: the vent. It doesn't corrode so much as it plugs up with solid
waste material when the tank gets too full. The screen stops the material,
then further pumping packs it in. Initially, I would remove the shower
bulkhead, disassemble the vent tubing (not easy), clean out the tube and the
vent fitting, then reassemble. But I later found that if I put a piece of
vinyl tubing over the end of a hose nozzle and then slipped the other end of
the tubing over the bronze vent (it has to fit loosely only), I could then
blast/back flush the vent to clean it out! Wet, but NOT messy. Doing it
pre-emptively frequently prevents obstruction. Oh, it also helps not to
forget emptying the holding tank before it gets full.
Second: With the thru hull fitting closed, the waste is pumped into the
holding tank where it stays and settles. The settled solid material
obstructs the outflow port such that when you open the thru hull to dump,
the holding tank doesn't empty. It continues to fill until the vent plugs.
Yucky! If the plug at the bottom is really solid, then as the head is pumped
further, the tank pressurizes until a hose fitting bursts off. Trust me, I
know this. Once you've cleaned up and reattached the blown hose connection,
you have to clear the obstruction. The only way to do this is to give the
thru hull an enema. Easy. You stick a hose into the thru hull from the
outside at the waterline and flush. Obstruction cleared. Now you bend down
and pull the hose out......oops! Hope you've had your hepatitis A shot, your
hepatitis B shot, your tetanus shot and maybe even a cholera shot. Now go
wash your face.
So this is why we threw out the whole damn plumbing scheme and started
over. First we removed the hose from the head to the top of the holding tank
at the tank and permanently sealed off that port on the tank. We ran said
hose up into the top of the upper locker to a vented loop, then directly
down to a T-valve at the bottom of the bottom locker. We cut the hose
running from the bottom of the holding tank to the thru hull and spliced in
the sides of the T valve. Everything is double hose clamped everywhere.
And here is how it works: Off shore, with the thru hull open, when the
head is flushed, the waste goes up over the loop, down to the T and straight
to the thru hull. Clean shot, no settling, no obstructions. In harbor, the
thru hull is closed and the T valve is switched such that the waste is
pumped over the loop, through the T-valve into the tank AT THE BOTTOM. This
means that anytime the head is flushed, any settled solid material is blown
away from the exit/entrance port. No obstruction develops.Even if the
material sits there for a prolonged time and does create a potential plug, a
couple of pump strokes pressurizes the line and blows it away. Pressure in
the tank isn't a problem because, as noted above the vent is flushed
periodically to ensure that it is OK. Once off shore again, the holding tank
can be emptied simply by opening the thru hull again. Simple, clean, no
hassles. Now I can brush my teeth again w/o wanting to throw up.
Billy Manana

[rhp...@verizon.net]

We use a bypass for the Lectrasan.  A Jabsco Y valve allows us to direct the head discharge to either the Lectrasan or the holding tank. The Lectrasan discharges to the sea (via an antisiphon loop).  In no discharge zones, we switch to the holding tank and lock the valve.  The Y valve is mounted under the counter in the head (we have the v-berth configuration).  We converted the head intake thru hull to function as the Lectrasan discharge and installed a new head intake thru hull under the head floor board, keeping the intake well away from the discharge.

 

Bob Peahl

Anthem P40/70

>> From: passpor...@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:passpor...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 12:11 PM
>> To: Passport Owners
>> Subject: [Passport] Relocate Holding Tank?
>> Even with my new wonderful electric head, I still get a little bit of
>> backflow from the holding tank.
>> More likely from the hose, but whatever, it's icky.
>> This is one of the tanks located behind the shower and elevated so it can
>> drain into the sea where appropriate.
>> Anyway, I am thinking that one solution would be to locate the tank lower.
>> Like under the floorboards or something. That way, the natural flow would
>> be "out" instead of "in".
>> Thoughts?
>> Michael Moradzadeh
>> Cayenne
>> 1984 Passport 40

>> --
>> Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org To post to the group,
>> use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com To reply to
>> just the author, just use "reply:
>> For more options, go to
>> http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en
>> --
>> Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
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>> To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
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>>
>>
>>

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>
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"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
Sinclair Lewis

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[Michael]

I installed a bypass for offshore work. It also has a benefit that if I
close the thru-hull, I can pump up into the tank to break up the
sludge. I discovered in 2000 that that sludge can thoroughly block the
outflow.

[RickC...@aol.com]

Well, guys, you could forget all the alternative plumbing possibilities and consider a Sealand Vacuflush ( http://www.sealandtechnology.com/prodvftoilet.asp ) connected to your existing system.  We've had flawless performance with one for several years.  No odors.  No sludge.  No "calcification." No crossed legs among the passengers. No problems whatsoever - just don't flush anything other than what comes from you + quickly dissolving "TP." Fresh water consumption is about 2 cups per flush. The only downside is the lack of nightly bioluminescence at sea.

 

Admittedly this was not my idea - rather it came as a recommendation from a slip neighbor who installed one on his cruising boat prior to several years circumnavigating (the recommendation came after his return...).  Naturally, my wife/crew immediately seized on the opportunity to do away with the "pump."

 

On our P-40, we moved the freshwater pump just a little to starboard and fit the entire pre-assembled vacuum unit in the resulting empty space.  Neatly, we're also still able to easily maintain the gray water bilge pump from the shower.  If this doesn't work for you, the components are available for individual mounting in awkward spaces. A bit of "Starbright" or equal from Tap Plastics can cover the holes left from the previous toilet and make for a very tidy & easily cleaned new installation.

 

Happy flushing !!

 

Rick Cooley

Drambuoy

 

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