CHEMICAL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND IT’S LIMITATION

[Dr. Sushen Krishna das]

CHEMICAL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND IT'S LIMITATION

by

Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaj, (T. D. Singh, Ph.D.)

Founding Director of Bhaktivedanta Institute



Introduction


What is life? Everyone is curious about life-whether a scientist, a
philosopher, a poet, an artist or a religious man or woman. We all
want to know about the reality and purpose behind our existence--"Why
are we born?", "why do we die?", "why do we suffer with diseases and
old age?", "what is our ultimate destination?" The Austrian physicist
Erwin Schrödinger, although not a biologist, wrote a classic monograph-
What is life? in 1944.


In the last few decades, there has been a rapid advancement in the
study of genetics and molecular biology, which has provided us
additional insights into the questions of life and evolution.
Scientists have unraveled many mysteries behind various life
processes, structures and functions of biomolecules. However, the
answer to the question -- 'what is life?' still seems far away. In this
regard Karl Popper, one of the greatest philosophers of science of the
20th century, also remarked, "The undreamt-of breakthrough of
molecular biology has made the problem of the origin of life a greater
riddle than it was before: we have acquired new and deeper
problems."[1]


A sincere attempt to have a clear understanding of life either
scientifically, philosophically and religiously is of foundational
importance and it will have important impact on our life and our world-
view. In this paper, the author first presents an overview of modern
scientific theories of life and evolution and their incompleteness to
explain life. Subsequently, he presents an alternative paradigm of
life from the Vedantic perspective. He further explores the emerging
field of consciousness and various other subjects pertaining to life
from the Vedantic perspective.


Modern Scientific Theories of Life and its Origin: A Brief Overview


(a) Life and Chemical Evolution:

When the bodies of living organisms are chemically analyzed, we find
that they are primarily made up of four elements (H, 0, N and C).
Chemicals such as water, proteins, lipids, carbohydrates and nucleic
acids constitute 95% of all the molecules present in the body of a
living organism. Thus it is tempting to conclude that life could be a
product of complex chemical reactions. Based on this concept,
practically all research works about life's origin are focused on the
possible synthesis of small and large molecules that make up the
bodies of living organisms. But is DNA or RNA molecule life? Will a
combination of synthetic biomolecules lead to life? If life is made of
chemicals, what will be the difference between life and death? Do the
scientists really study life?


According to modern biology, the smallest unit of life is called a
cell. All living organisms have cells. Organisms such as bacteria and
protozoa have single cells whereas higher living forms like human
beings have billions of cells. Cells contain many simple, inorganic
chemicals like water and inorganic ions. However, complex organic
molecules such as proteins, RNA (Ribonucleic Acid), DNA
(Deoxyribonucleic Acid), lipids, etc., provide for most of the
essential biological functions of the cell.


Scientists, in the field of biology, study life and its origin in
terms of these biomolecules. They attempt to generate a living cell by
combining these biomolecules. Many biologists and evolutionary
chemists -- such as Oparin, Fox, Miller, Orgel, Ponnamperuma and many
others made extensive experimentation to generate life from molecules.
Various models have been proposed for understanding how life may have
generated from chemicals on earth such as Oparin's model of
coacervates, Fox's model of protenold microspheres, Cairns-Smith's
model of clay as our grandfather, Christian de Duve's thioester model,
Miller's electrical discharge reactions to simulate lightening in a so-
called primordial gaseous mixture of H2, H2O, NH3, CH4, etc., of the
presumed primordial or early earth. It is 4 interesting that Miller
himself, one of the main pioneers of prebiotic chemistry, has recently
stated, "We really don't know what the Earth was like three or four
billion years ago. So there are all sorts of theories and
speculations. The major uncertainty concerns what the atmosphere was
like. This is a major area of dispute."[2] It is beyond the scope of
this paper to describe all these models here. However, the author
would like to mention that all these models do not show any sign of
generating a living cell till the present time.


(b) "Which came first-DNA or protein molecule?"

In 1953, Watson and Crick proposed the double helix model for the
structure of DNA. Their discovery helped to explain how genetic
material is copied inside the cell-genetic information flows from DNA,
in the nucleus of each cell, to RNA, which carries the information out
of the nucleus into the body of the cell and uses the instructions
encoded in it to produce proteins (which acts as enzymes and also
provide the structural framework of cells). However, the duplication
of DNA requires numerous enzymes that catalyze those reactions. And
enzymes are proteins themselves-the end product of the information
coded in DNA. In other words, proteins are required for DNA synthesis
and DNA is required for protein synthesis. How then could the first
living cell with DNA-based molecular biology have originated by
spontaneous chemical processes on the prebiotic earth? This has been
the chicken and egg problem of life's evolution from chemicals --"
which came first--DNA or protein molecule?"


(c) The RNA World

In late 1960's several biologists including Crick, Carl Woese and
Leslie Orgel[3] suggested that the ancestor molecule was neither DNA
nor protein but RNA. RNA, they suggested, might have catalyzed
reactions necessary for replication as well as providing the genetic
information necessary to replicate itself. Self-replicating RNA based
systems would have arisen first, and DNA and proteins would have been
added later. DNA could evolve from RNA and then, being more stable,
take over RNA's role as the guardian of heredity.


This idea further got support in early 1980's from the independent
discoveries of Thomas Cech and Sidney Altman of a kind of RNA that
catalyzes a reaction.[4] These catalytic RNA molecules have
subsequently been termed as "ribozymes". In 1986, Walter Gilbert, in
an article in Nature, portrayed the primordial world as 'RNA World'
where RNA molecules catalyze their own synthesis.[5] Since then, the
term 'RNA World' has stuck to the general hypothesis-RNA first, DNA
and protein later and researchers continue to discover new functions
for existing RNA, illustrating repeatedly how versatile these
molecules can be.


However, there are many difficulties and problems in the RNA world.[6]
Leslie Orgel, one of the scientists who first proposed it in the
1960s, himself concedes that researchers who have attempted to
illustrate the possibility of spontaneous generation of the chemical
elements of RNA itself have had only modest success. Ribose, the sugar
that is part of the backbone of the RNA molecule, is difficult to
create from hypothetical early earth conditions except in very small
quantities.[7] Stanley Miller and his colleagues have also recently
reported, "ribose and other sugars have surprisingly short half-lives
for decomposition at neutral pH, making it very unlikely that sugars
were available as prebiotic reagents."[8]


RNA world assumes that in the primordial world, ribonucleotides
spontaneously condense into polymers to form RNA molecules and RNA
molecules once formed would have the catalytic activity to replicate
itself, and a population of such self-replicating molecules would
arise. However, it is objected that even if RNA could have formed
spontaneously, it would have been continuously degraded by spontaneous
hydrolysis and other destructive processes operating on the primitive
Earth.[9] Joyce and Orgel points out many detailed problems with these
postulates of RNA world.[10] They finally suggest not to accept "the
myth of a self-replicating RNA molecule that arose de novo from a soup
of random polynucleotides. Not only is such a notion unrealistic in
light of our current understanding of prebiotic chemistry, but it
should strain the credulity of even an optimist's view of RNA's
catalytic potential."[11] Similarly, Francis Crick has expressed great
doubt about the RNA world. He says, "At present, the gap from the
primal "soup" to the first RNA system capable of natural selection
looks forbiddingly wide."[12] Thus the chemical concept of life does
not seem to be very promising.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Karl R. Popper, "Reduction and the Essential Incompleteness of All
Science," Studies in the Philosophy of Biology, eds. Francisco Jose
Ayala and Theodosius Dobzhansky, 1974, p.271.

[2] "From Primordial Soup to the Prebiotic Beach", Interview with
Stanley Miller by Sean Henahan, October 1996, Access Excellence,
National Health Museum; web: www.accessexcellence.org/WN / NM/
miller.html

[3] Carl Woese, The Genetic Code: The Molecular Basis for Genetic
Expression, New York, Harper and Row, 1967; F.H.C. Crick, "The Origin
of the Genetic Code", J. Mol. Biol., 1968, 38:367379; L.E. Orgel
"Evolution of the Genetic Apparatus," J. Mol. Biol., 1968, 38:381-393.

[4] K. Kruger, P.J. Grabowski, A.J. Zaug, J. Sands, D.E. Gottschling,
and T.R. Cech, "Self-Splicing RNA: Autoexcision and Autocyc1ization of
the Ribosomal RNA Intervening Sequence of Tetrahymena," Cell,
1982,31:147-157; C. Guerrier-Takada & S. Altman, "Catalytic Activity
of an RNA molecule prepared by transcription in vitro", 1984, Science,
223:285-9.

[5] Walter Gilbert, "The RNA World," Nature, 1986, 319: 618.

[6] G. Joyce, "RNA evolution and the origins of life," Nature 338
(1989): 217-224; T.J. Gibson and A.I. Lamond, "Metabolic complexity in
the RNA World and implications for the origin of protein synthesis,"
J. Mol. Evol. 30 (1990): 7-15; G.F. Joyce and L.E. Orgel, "Prospects
for understanding the origin of the RNA World," in The RNA World, eds.
RF. Gesteland and IF. Atkins, New York, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory
Press, 1993, pp.1-25.

[7] Leslie E. Orgel, "The Origin of Life on the Earth", Scientific
American, 1994, vol.271, No.4, pp.76-83. Also refer R Shapiro, "The
improbability of prebiotic nucleic acid synthesis," Origins of Life 14
(1984); 565-570; R Shapiro, "Prebiotic ribose synthesis: a critical
analysis," Origins of Life 18 (1988): 71-85; R Shapiro, "The prebiotic
role of adenine: a critical analysis," Origins of Life and the
Evolution of the Biosphere 25 (1995): 83-98.

[8] Rosa Larralde, Michael P. Robertson, and Stanley L. Miller, "Rates
of decomposition of ribose and other sugars: Implications for chemical
evolution," Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 1995, 92: 8158-8160. The
ribose half-lives are very short, Larralde et al. report: 73 minutes
at pH 7.0 and 100° C and 44 years at pH 7.0 and 0° C.

[9] C. Thaxton, W. Bradley, and R Olsen, The Mystery of Life's Origin,
New York, Philosophical Library, 1984.

[10] G.F. Joyce and L. E. Orgel, "Prospects for understanding the
origin of the RNA World", The RNA World, eds. RF. Gesteland and I.E
Atkins, New York, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, 1993, pp.I-25.
Also refer Gordon C. Mills & Dean Kenyon, "The RNA World: A Critique",
Origins & Design, 17:1, 1996.

[11] Ibid.

[12] Francis Crick, "Foreword", The RNA World, eds., RF. Gesteland &
I.F. Atkins, 1993, p.xiii.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



{ You can find this posting in HTML format with photos at group page:
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[PJD]

I am very pleased to be a part of this e-group, which wants to discuss
the difficult question in science from an eastern perspective. The
recent message, “Chemical concept of life and it’s
limitation” ( http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/chemical-concept-of-life-and-its-limitation
) gives a critic of some of the concepts of life from a physico-
chemical perspective. The message concludes that “Thus the chemical
concept of life does not seem to be very promising.” However, the
scientists are continuing to conduct many interesting researches in
the line of chemical evolution of life.

For example, I would like to share with the group the recent article
that was published in ‘Science Daily’ in 2008 (see,
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm ). The
news cliamed that “A team of 17 researchers at the J. Craig Venter
Institute (JCVI) has created the largest man-made DNA structure by
synthesizing and assembling the 582,970 base pair genome of a
bacterium, Mycoplasma genitalium JCVI-1.0. This work, published online
today in the journal Science by Dan Gibson, Ph.D., et al, is the
second of three key steps toward the team’s goal of creating a fully
synthetic organism. In the next step, which is ongoing at the JCVI,
the team will attempt to create a living bacterial cell based entirely
on the synthetically made genome.”

This seems to be quite interesting. Can we expect the claim of J.
Craig Venter Institute that they will be able to create artificial
living bacterial cell materialize?

-pjd


On Nov 12, 10:02 pm, "Dr. Sushen Krishna das" <jaga.sur...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> National Health Museum; web:www.accessexcellence.org/WN/ NM/

> { You can find this posting in HTML format with photos at group page:http://groups.google.co.in/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/chemical-conc...

[Dr. Sushen Krishna das]

Dear PJD:

Thank you for your interesting question. Actually on 2nd March 2008
Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. from Bhaktivedanta
Institute discussed this topic in one of the weekly online Skype
meetings (to join online Skype meeting please add our Skype ID:
sushen_das to your Skype address list). We have prepared a video
presentation from the online audio discussion as a response to your
question.

The video presentation can be found at: http://www.archive.org/details/ArtificialLife

Download the video at
http://www.archive.org/download/ArtificialLife/DidScientistsCreateArtificialLife.wmv

J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI) first synthesized and assembled the
synthetic version of the M. genitalium chromosome by resequencing the
native M. genitalium genome. After that, they produced the specially
designed fragments of chemically synthesized DNA to build 101
“cassettes” of 5,000 to 7,000 base pairs of genetic code. They have
followed five step assembly process to synthesize M. genitalium.

It is mentioned in Science Daily News
(http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm) that
“From here, the team devised a five stage assembly process where the
cassettes were joined together in subassemblies to make larger and
larger pieces that would eventually be combined to build the whole
synthetic M. genitalium genome. In the first step, sets of four
cassettes were joined to create 25 subassemblies, each about 24,000
base pairs (24kb). These 24kb fragments were cloned into the bacterium
Escherichia coli to produce sufficient DNA for the next steps, and for
DNA sequence validation.

The next step involved combining three 24kb fragments together to
create 8 assembled blocks, each about 72,000 base pairs. These 1/8th
fragments of the whole genome were again cloned into E. coli for DNA
production and DNA sequencing. Step three involved combining two 1/8th
fragments together to produce large fragments approximately 144,000
base pairs or 1/4th of the whole genome.

At this stage the team could not obtain half genome clones in E. coli,
so the team experimented with yeast and found that it tolerated the
large foreign DNA molecules well, and that they were able to assemble
the fragments together by homologous recombination. This process was
used to assemble the last cassettes, from 1/4 genome fragments to the
final genome of more than 580,000 base pairs. The final chromosome was
again sequenced in order to validate the complete accurate chemical
structure.

The synthetic M. genitalium has a molecular weight of 360,110
kilodaltons (kDa). Printed in 10 point font, the letters of the M.
genitalium JCVI-1.0 genome span 147 pages.

“This is an exciting advance for our team and the field. However, we
continue to work toward the ultimate goal of inserting the synthetic
chromosome into a cell and booting it up to create the first synthetic
organism,” said Dan Gibson, lead author.”

The claims made by J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI) sounds very
exciting, in News columns but the reality is that they are presenting
only the old news. In this connection Dr. T. D. Singh, founder
director of Bhakivedanta Institute, attended a lecture on the origin
of life by the world-renowned reductionist, Professor Stanley Miller.
Dr. T. D. Singh asked Professor Stanley Miller during the question and
answer session, "Suppose I were to give you all of the ready made bio-
molecules -- DNA, proteins, lipids, sugars, etc. -- would you be able
to produce life within a test-tube by combining these molecules?"
Professor Miller replied, "That I don't know."

We know that DNA is a dead matter and is not life. The dead matter
follows the laws of physics and chemistry which modern science has
figured out. But life and the body that has life violate the laws of
physics and chemistry. We can take a simple example: it is possible to
accurately predict the projectile motion of a dead bird by utilizing
the laws of mechanics, but we have no way to predict the motion of a
living bird by any mathematical law.

Scientists have to think seriously that whether it is possible to
produce life (which is transcendental to the laws of physics and
chemistry) from a dead matter (which follows the laws of physics and
chemistry). Louis Pasteur made a similar argument, “How do you know
that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists ...
to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter? ...
How do you know that in 10,000 years one will not consider it more
likely that matter has emerged from life?”

To study life we have the department of Biology. However, the present
Biology seems to be focusing only on the physics and chemistry of the
body of a living being. Consciousness is the prime symptom of a living
body that is absent in dead body/matter. We have to study that element
(living being or soul), which is making a body living or dead. Hence,
we have to make a serious examination to the present Biological
studies to make a distinction between Department of Biology and
Department of Physics/Chemistry.

We also request the group members to share their thoughts and studies
on the topic.

Thanking you.

Sincerely,
Sushen Krishna das

[This message can also be found in HTML format on group pages at:
http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/artificial-life
]

On Nov 15, 2:28 pm, PJD <purushottama.narasin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am very pleased to be a part of this e-group, which wants to discuss
> the difficult question in science from an eastern perspective. The
> recent message, “Chemical concept of life and it’s

> limitation” (http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/chemical-concep...

> ) gives a critic of some of the concepts of life from a physico-
> chemical perspective. The message concludes that “Thus the chemical
> concept of life does not seem to be very promising.” However, the
> scientists are continuing to conduct many interesting researches in
> the line of chemical evolution of life.
>
> For example, I would like to share with the group the recent article

> that was published in ‘Science Daily’ in 2008 (see,http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm). The

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Dr.V.JagadeeshKumar]

Hello
If science can not answer questions then definitely hypotheses (assuming
transcedental/spiritual... qualities to life, which are only imagined and
not provable) can not answer them.
vjkumar

On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:31:31 -0800 (PST), Dr. Sushen Krishna das wrote

> Dear PJD:
>
> Thank you for your interesting question. Actually on 2nd March 2008
> Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. from Bhaktivedanta
> Institute discussed this topic in one of the weekly online Skype
> meetings (to join online Skype meeting please add our Skype ID:
> sushen_das to your Skype address list). We have prepared a video
> presentation from the online audio discussion as a response to your
> question.
>
> The video presentation can be found at:
http://www.archive.org/details/ArtificialLife
>
> Download the video at
>
http://www.archive.org/download/ArtificialLife/DidScientistsCreateArtificialL
ife.wmv
>
> J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI) first synthesized and assembled the
> synthetic version of the M. genitalium chromosome by resequencing the
> native M. genitalium genome. After that, they produced the specially
> designed fragments of chemically synthesized DNA to build 101

> [WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽcassettes�ｿｽ of 5,000 to 7,000 base pairs of genetic code.

They have
> followed five step assembly process to synthesize M. genitalium.
>
> It is mentioned in Science Daily News
> (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm) that

> [WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽFrom here, the team devised a five stage assembly process

> [WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽThis is an exciting advance for our team and the field.

However, we
> continue to work toward the ultimate goal of inserting the synthetic
> chromosome into a cell and booting it up to create the first

> synthetic [WINDOWS-1252?]organism,�ｿｽ said Dan Gibson, lead [WINDOWS-1252?]
author.�ｿｽ

>
> The claims made by J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI) sounds very
> exciting, in News columns but the reality is that they are presenting
> only the old news. In this connection Dr. T. D. Singh, founder
> director of Bhakivedanta Institute, attended a lecture on the origin
> of life by the world-renowned reductionist, Professor Stanley Miller.
> Dr. T. D. Singh asked Professor Stanley Miller during the question
> and answer session, "Suppose I were to give you all of the ready
> made bio- molecules -- DNA, proteins, lipids, sugars, etc. -- would
> you be able to produce life within a test-tube by combining these
molecules?"
> Professor Miller replied, "That I don't know."
>
> We know that DNA is a dead matter and is not life. The dead matter
> follows the laws of physics and chemistry which modern science has
> figured out. But life and the body that has life violate the laws of
> physics and chemistry. We can take a simple example: it is possible
> to accurately predict the projectile motion of a dead bird by utilizing
> the laws of mechanics, but we have no way to predict the motion of a
> living bird by any mathematical law.
>
> Scientists have to think seriously that whether it is possible to
> produce life (which is transcendental to the laws of physics and
> chemistry) from a dead matter (which follows the laws of physics and

> chemistry). Louis Pasteur made a similar argument, [WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽHow do

you know
> that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists ...
> to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter?
> ... How do you know that in 10,000 years one will not consider it

> more likely that matter has emerged from [WINDOWS-1252?]life?�ｿｽ

>
> To study life we have the department of Biology. However, the present
> Biology seems to be focusing only on the physics and chemistry of the
> body of a living being. Consciousness is the prime symptom of a
> living body that is absent in dead body/matter. We have to study
> that element
> (living being or soul), which is making a body living or dead. Hence,
> we have to make a serious examination to the present Biological
> studies to make a distinction between Department of Biology and
> Department of Physics/Chemistry.
>
> We also request the group members to share their thoughts and studies
> on the topic.
>
> Thanking you.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sushen Krishna das
>
> [This message can also be found in HTML format on group pages at:
> http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/artificial-life
> ]
>

> On Nov 15, 2:28�ｿｽpm, PJD <purushottama.narasin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am very pleased to be a part of this e-group, which wants to discuss
> > the difficult question in science from an eastern perspective. The

> > recent message, [WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽChemical concept of life and [WINDOWS-
1252?]it�ｿｽs
> > [WINDOWS-1252?]limitation�ｿｽ

(http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/chemical-concep...
> > ) gives a critic of some of the concepts of life from a physico-

> > chemical perspective. The message concludes that [WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽThus
the chemical
> > concept of life does not seem to be very [WINDOWS-1252?]promising.�ｿｽ

However, the
> > scientists are continuing to conduct many interesting researches in
> > the line of chemical evolution of life.
> >
> > For example, I would like to share with the group the recent article

> > that was published in [WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽScience [WINDOWS-1252?]Daily�ｿｽ in
2008 (see,http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm). The
> > news cliamed that [WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽA team of 17 researchers at the J.

Craig Venter
> > Institute (JCVI) has created the largest man-made DNA structure by
> > synthesizing and assembling the 582,970 base pair genome of a
> > bacterium, Mycoplasma genitalium JCVI-1.0. This work, published online
> > today in the journal Science by Dan Gibson, Ph.D., et al, is the

> > second of three key steps toward the [WINDOWS-1252?]team�ｿｽs goal of

creating a fully
> > synthetic organism. In the next step, which is ongoing at the JCVI,
> > the team will attempt to create a living bacterial cell based entirely

> > on the synthetically made [WINDOWS-1252?]genome.�ｿｽ

> >
> > This seems to be quite interesting. Can we expect the claim of J.
> > Craig Venter Institute that they will be able to create artificial
> > living bacterial cell materialize?
> >
> > -pjd
> >

> > On Nov 12, 10:02�ｿｽpm, "Dr. Sushen Krishna das" <jaga.sur...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > CHEMICAL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND IT'S LIMITATION
> >
> > > by
> >
> > > Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaj, (T. D. Singh, Ph.D.)
> >
> > > Founding Director of Bhaktivedanta Institute
> >
> > > Introduction
> >
> > > What is life? Everyone is curious about life-whether a scientist, a
> > > philosopher, a poet, an artist or a religious man or woman. We all
> > > want to know about the reality and purpose behind our existence--"Why
> > > are we born?", "why do we die?", "why do we suffer with diseases and
> > > old age?", "what is our ultimate destination?" The Austrian physicist

> > > Erwin Schr�ｿｽdinger, although not a biologist, wrote a classic monograph-

> > read more �ｿｽ- Hide quoted text -

> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>

> --
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--
Open WebMail (http://www.ee.iitm.ernet.in)

[Dr. S.K. Parida]

Dear All,

It is not true that what science has not proved are all hypothetical.
Science is now proving those things, which are told in Srimad Bhagavatam,
Upanisads and Vedas. Our vedic literature is so great...

Thanks

> [WINDOWS-1252?]�cassettes� of 5,000 to 7,000 base pairs of genetic code.

They have
> followed five step assembly process to synthesize M. genitalium.
>
> It is mentioned in Science Daily News
> (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm) that

> [WINDOWS-1252?]�From here, the team devised a five stage assembly process

> [WINDOWS-1252?]�This is an exciting advance for our team and the field.

However, we
> continue to work toward the ultimate goal of inserting the synthetic
> chromosome into a cell and booting it up to create the first

> synthetic [WINDOWS-1252?]organism,� said Dan Gibson, lead [WINDOWS-1252?]
author.�

>
> The claims made by J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI) sounds very
> exciting, in News columns but the reality is that they are presenting
> only the old news. In this connection Dr. T. D. Singh, founder
> director of Bhakivedanta Institute, attended a lecture on the origin
> of life by the world-renowned reductionist, Professor Stanley Miller.
> Dr. T. D. Singh asked Professor Stanley Miller during the question
> and answer session, "Suppose I were to give you all of the ready
> made bio- molecules -- DNA, proteins, lipids, sugars, etc. -- would
> you be able to produce life within a test-tube by combining these
molecules?"
> Professor Miller replied, "That I don't know."
>
> We know that DNA is a dead matter and is not life. The dead matter
> follows the laws of physics and chemistry which modern science has
> figured out. But life and the body that has life violate the laws of
> physics and chemistry. We can take a simple example: it is possible
> to accurately predict the projectile motion of a dead bird by utilizing
> the laws of mechanics, but we have no way to predict the motion of a
> living bird by any mathematical law.
>
> Scientists have to think seriously that whether it is possible to
> produce life (which is transcendental to the laws of physics and
> chemistry) from a dead matter (which follows the laws of physics and

> chemistry). Louis Pasteur made a similar argument, [WINDOWS-1252?]�How do

you know
> that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists ...
> to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter?
> ... How do you know that in 10,000 years one will not consider it

> more likely that matter has emerged from [WINDOWS-1252?]life?�

>
> To study life we have the department of Biology. However, the present
> Biology seems to be focusing only on the physics and chemistry of the
> body of a living being. Consciousness is the prime symptom of a
> living body that is absent in dead body/matter. We have to study
> that element
> (living being or soul), which is making a body living or dead. Hence,
> we have to make a serious examination to the present Biological
> studies to make a distinction between Department of Biology and
> Department of Physics/Chemistry.
>
> We also request the group members to share their thoughts and studies
> on the topic.
>
> Thanking you.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sushen Krishna das
>
> [This message can also be found in HTML format on group pages at:
> http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/artificial-life
> ]
>

> On Nov 15, 2:28 pm, PJD <purushottama.narasin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am very pleased to be a part of this e-group, which wants to discuss
> > the difficult question in science from an eastern perspective. The

> > recent message, [WINDOWS-1252?]�Chemical concept of life and [WINDOWS-
1252?]it�s
> > [WINDOWS-1252?]limitation�

(http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/chemical-concep...
> > ) gives a critic of some of the concepts of life from a physico-

> > chemical perspective. The message concludes that [WINDOWS-1252?]�Thus
the chemical
> > concept of life does not seem to be very [WINDOWS-1252?]promising.�

However, the
> > scientists are continuing to conduct many interesting researches in
> > the line of chemical evolution of life.
> >
> > For example, I would like to share with the group the recent article

> > that was published in [WINDOWS-1252?]�Science [WINDOWS-1252?]Daily� in
2008 (see,http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm).
The
> > news cliamed that [WINDOWS-1252?]�A team of 17 researchers at the J.

Craig Venter
> > Institute (JCVI) has created the largest man-made DNA structure by
> > synthesizing and assembling the 582,970 base pair genome of a
> > bacterium, Mycoplasma genitalium JCVI-1.0. This work, published online
> > today in the journal Science by Dan Gibson, Ph.D., et al, is the

> > second of three key steps toward the [WINDOWS-1252?]team�s goal of

creating a fully
> > synthetic organism. In the next step, which is ongoing at the JCVI,
> > the team will attempt to create a living bacterial cell based entirely

> > on the synthetically made [WINDOWS-1252?]genome.�

> >
> > This seems to be quite interesting. Can we expect the claim of J.
> > Craig Venter Institute that they will be able to create artificial
> > living bacterial cell materialize?
> >
> > -pjd
> >

> > On Nov 12, 10:02 pm, "Dr. Sushen Krishna das" <jaga.sur...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > CHEMICAL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND IT'S LIMITATION
> >
> > > by
> >
> > > Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaj, (T. D. Singh, Ph.D.)
> >
> > > Founding Director of Bhaktivedanta Institute
> >
> > > Introduction
> >
> > > What is life? Everyone is curious about life-whether a scientist, a
> > > philosopher, a poet, an artist or a religious man or woman. We all
> > > want to know about the reality and purpose behind our existence--"Why
> > > are we born?", "why do we die?", "why do we suffer with diseases and
> > > old age?", "what is our ultimate destination?" The Austrian physicist

> > > Erwin Schr�dinger, although not a biologist, wrote a classic

> > read more �- Hide quoted text -

> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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[Bhaskar Dasgupta ME Dept IIT Kanpur India]

> It is not true that what science has not proved are all hypothetical.

This gentleman thinks "hypothetical" means dubious or outright wrong.
Till the statement is "proved", it remains hypothetical - according
to literal meaning of the word. It can still be 100% true!

> Science is now proving those things, which are told in Srimad Bhagavatam,
> Upanisads and Vedas. Our vedic literature is so great...

Ha! As usual ....

I find that part of Geeta, Upanishad etc more fulfilling which do not
ask for proof ...
for example,
points of ethics, expressions of
obvious but often-ignored concepts
and the sonorous poetry.
- Bhaskar

------

Look up the new textbook at http://home.iitk.ac.in/~dasgupta/MathBook
And, the short term course at http://home.iitk.ac.in/~dasgupta/stc2k9
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Bhaskar Dasgupta, Resid: House No. 431, IIT, Kanpur.
Associate Professor, Phone: +91-512-2598706
Department of Mechanical Engg, Off. : Robotics Centre / Fac. Bldg 389
Indian Institute of Technology, Phone: +91-512-259-7095/7995/7914
Kanpur - 208 016. ( INDIA ) Fax : +91-512-259-7995/7408
Email: dasg...@iitk.ac.in URL : http://home.iitk.ac.in/~dasgupta
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"HIS love is infinite, but blessings restrained by justice.
HIS justice is exact, but tempered by compassion." - St Sinclair

[Anshul Singh]

Dear Sir Sushen Krishna das,

There are problems with your definition of life.

You say:

" DNA is a dead matter and is not life. The dead matter
follows the laws of physics and chemistry which modern science has
figured out"

"whether it is possible to
produce life (which is transcendental to the laws of physics and
chemistry) from a dead matter "

Now think of any simplest so-called living thing e.g. consider a
single cell now it is just a collection of molecules undergoing
chemical reaction and their dynamics is well governed by the laws of
mechanics. Now you can say that a molecule is not a living thing
but a collection of molecules is a living system.

You also said:
"it is possible to
accurately predict the projectile motion of a dead bird by utilizing
the laws of mechanics, but we have no way to predict the motion of a
living bird by any mathematical law."

Now to predict motion of a system we need initial conditions.
Consider an aeroplane whose flight controls are programmed in a
microcontroller and we dont know the software.
We can throw the plane and we cannot predict its motion. The reason
being vague knowledge of initial condition. Here the initial
condition means the knowledge of electrical properties of the
microcontroller and its charge profile ( charge profile => the
software).

In case of bird we dont know the charge profile of the neurons of the
bird and also the neural network physical properties, hence we should
not blame the physical laws since they require complete initial
condition.

Thanking You

Your Sincerely
Anshul

[Dr.V.JagadeeshKumar]

Dr Parida

This is exactly what is wrong with our system. If our literature is so great
why is it that not a single technology we use to day is invented / discovered
by us.

Unfortunately great minds of the past in this part of the world were tinkering
to decipher imagined entities like aathmaa and paramathmaa and started
accepting anything that is vague and not understood as true.

I am sure that thinkers like Budha and Sankara, if they have tried, would have
cracked many of the mysteries of science long before Newton and the like.

Definitely the literature like the Manu Shaastra are not great and are really
the scum of human mind.

Even the Baghavatam and the Upanishads are not great as they treat women as
subservient to men!

Please look at the reality today and atleast now let us get out of the rut and
start thinking in the right direction.
vjkumar
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:31:53 +0530, Dr. S.K. Parida wrote

> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽcassettes�ｿｽ of 5,000 to 7,000 base pairs of

genetic code.
> They have
> > followed five step assembly process to synthesize M. genitalium.
> >
> > It is mentioned in Science Daily News
> > (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm) that

> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽFrom here, the team devised a five stage

> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽThis is an exciting advance for our team

and the field.
> However, we
> > continue to work toward the ultimate goal of inserting the synthetic
> > chromosome into a cell and booting it up to create the first

> > synthetic [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]organism,�ｿｽ said Dan Gibson, lead
[WINDOWS-1252?]
> [WINDOWS-1252?]author.�ｿｽ

> >
> > The claims made by J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI) sounds very
> > exciting, in News columns but the reality is that they are presenting
> > only the old news. In this connection Dr. T. D. Singh, founder
> > director of Bhakivedanta Institute, attended a lecture on the origin
> > of life by the world-renowned reductionist, Professor Stanley Miller.
> > Dr. T. D. Singh asked Professor Stanley Miller during the question
> > and answer session, "Suppose I were to give you all of the ready
> > made bio- molecules -- DNA, proteins, lipids, sugars, etc. -- would
> > you be able to produce life within a test-tube by combining these
> molecules?"
> > Professor Miller replied, "That I don't know."
> >
> > We know that DNA is a dead matter and is not life. The dead matter
> > follows the laws of physics and chemistry which modern science has
> > figured out. But life and the body that has life violate the laws of
> > physics and chemistry. We can take a simple example: it is possible
> > to accurately predict the projectile motion of a dead bird by utilizing
> > the laws of mechanics, but we have no way to predict the motion of a
> > living bird by any mathematical law.
> >
> > Scientists have to think seriously that whether it is possible to
> > produce life (which is transcendental to the laws of physics and
> > chemistry) from a dead matter (which follows the laws of physics and
> > chemistry). Louis Pasteur made a similar argument,

[WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽHow do

> you know
> > that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists ...
> > to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter?
> > ... How do you know that in 10,000 years one will not consider it

> > more likely that matter has emerged from [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]life?�ｿｽ

> >
> > To study life we have the department of Biology. However, the present
> > Biology seems to be focusing only on the physics and chemistry of the
> > body of a living being. Consciousness is the prime symptom of a
> > living body that is absent in dead body/matter. We have to study
> > that element
> > (living being or soul), which is making a body living or dead. Hence,
> > we have to make a serious examination to the present Biological
> > studies to make a distinction between Department of Biology and
> > Department of Physics/Chemistry.
> >
> > We also request the group members to share their thoughts and studies
> > on the topic.
> >
> > Thanking you.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Sushen Krishna das
> >
> > [This message can also be found in HTML format on group pages at:
> > http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/artificial-life
> > ]
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2:28 pm, PJD <purushottama.narasin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I am very pleased to be a part of this e-group, which wants to discuss
> > > the difficult question in science from an eastern perspective. The

> > > recent message, [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽChemical concept of life
and [WINDOWS-
> [WINDOWS-1252?]1252?]it�ｿｽs
> > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]limitation�ｿｽ

>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/chemical-concep...
> > > ) gives a critic of some of the concepts of life from a physico-
> > > chemical perspective. The message concludes that

[WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽThus

> the chemical
> > > concept of life does not seem to be very

[WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]promising.�ｿｽ

> However, the
> > > scientists are continuing to conduct many interesting researches in
> > > the line of chemical evolution of life.
> > >
> > > For example, I would like to share with the group the recent article

> > > that was published in [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽScience
[WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]Daily�ｿｽ in
> 2008 (see,
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm). The
> > > news cliamed that [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�ｿｽA team of 17

researchers at the J.
> Craig Venter
> > > Institute (JCVI) has created the largest man-made DNA structure by
> > > synthesizing and assembling the 582,970 base pair genome of a
> > > bacterium, Mycoplasma genitalium JCVI-1.0. This work, published online
> > > today in the journal Science by Dan Gibson, Ph.D., et al, is the
> > > second of three key steps toward the

[WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]team�ｿｽs goal of

> creating a fully
> > > synthetic organism. In the next step, which is ongoing at the JCVI,
> > > the team will attempt to create a living bacterial cell based entirely

> > > on the synthetically made [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]genome.�ｿｽ

> > >
> > > This seems to be quite interesting. Can we expect the claim of J.
> > > Craig Venter Institute that they will be able to create artificial
> > > living bacterial cell materialize?
> > >
> > > -pjd
> > >
> > > On Nov 12, 10:02 pm, "Dr. Sushen Krishna das" <jaga.sur...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > CHEMICAL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND IT'S LIMITATION
> > >
> > > > by
> > >
> > > > Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaj, (T. D. Singh, Ph.D.)
> > >
> > > > Founding Director of Bhaktivedanta Institute
> > >
> > > > Introduction
> > >
> > > > What is life? Everyone is curious about life-whether a scientist, a
> > > > philosopher, a poet, an artist or a religious man or woman. We all
> > > > want to know about the reality and purpose behind our existence--"Why
> > > > are we born?", "why do we die?", "why do we suffer with diseases and
> > > > old age?", "what is our ultimate destination?" The Austrian physicist

> > > > Erwin Schr�ｿｽdinger, although not a biologist, wrote a classic

> > > read more �ｿｽ- Hide quoted text -

[Jonathan]

Gentlemen,

I think it is worthwhile to re-examine the central theorem put forward by Srila Prabhupada -- Life Comes from LIfe -- in view of the scientific experiment under discussion.

[Ishan Sharma]

Dear V J Kumar,

To answer to your question

This is exactly what is wrong with our system. If our literature is so great why is it that not a single technology we use to day is invented / discovered by us.

Perhaps the fault lies with the user, and not the inventor. If you disregard Ayurveda or Yoga, it is not Charaka's or Pathanjali's fault.

Same goes for the metallurgists who don't adopt the technology that keeps Delhi's Iron Pillar from rusting. 

The list, unfortunately, is quite long. 

I am sure that thinkers like Budha and Sankara, if they have tried, would have cracked many of the mysteries of science long before Newton and the like.

In fact, they did. And it didn't need Budha and Shankara. There is documented proof that the Malayali school of mathematic had calculus and the binomial theorem etc. There are passages in the Upanishad that hint at Newton's first law. 

Again, the list is long.

Maybe you could consider spending some time with some of the literature that you deride. Only, of course, if you can spare time from seeing today's reality, getting out of the rut, and moving in the right direction.

best,

i.

[Dr. S.K. Parida]

Dear VJ Kumar

 

First of all please go through our vedic literatures. Then say..... please don't say the things that you have collected as garbage from a conditioned society. You should be aware and conscious of yourself before commenting on any our vedic literature. All the humanbeing today is conditioned and you are also not an exception. So, think with no conditioning....

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[Devendra Jalihal]

Prof. Jagadeesh Kumar's e-mail mixes up and confuses many ideas from
religion, politics and nationalism. Let me take one at a time.

1. He asserts that Upanishads, Bhagavatam and Manu Smriti contain
unpalatable ideas. Since he doesn't cite any passages/extracts from
these texts in favor of his assertion, it is difficult to either agree
or disagree with him and his assertion cannot be taken seriously.
Upanishads are canonical texts of Hinduism and Manu Smriti is a
text on law and society. Each has its own weight and authority but they
are not equal. For example, if Manu Smriti contradicts Upanishads in
some matter, it is clear that it is the Upanishads that will be more
authoritative. This is the orthodox position.

2. "If Shankara or Buddha had spent more time on natural sciences in
stead of religion, they would have come up with ideas to beat Newton and
others" is his other assertion. This is very troublesome because we
don't know how Shankara and Buddha spent their spare time. We are better
informed about Newton. He spent only a fraction of his time
investigating "natural sciences" and disproportionately long time
interpreting Biblical hermeneutics. He was a believer in God. It will be
futile to even suggest that Newton should have spent all his time
studying natural sciences so that he could come up with ideas to beat
Einstein, instead of wasting his time studying the Bible (which he did)
or being the Chancellor of Exchequer (which he was, which is equivalent
to Governor of Reserve Bank of India) or carrying out unnecessary
polemical arguments with Leibniz (which he did).

We aught to like and admire Shankara and Buddha (or hate them just
in case you want to do that) for what they did. It will be futile to
speculate why they did not do something and indulge in hand-wringing 'if
only they had, India would be proud of discovering gravitational laws'.
With regards,
-Devendra Jalihal

[arorafme]

Dear All,

I have read few interesting mails. So I am giving my humble views without
any intention to hurt any one.

Actually Prof VJ Kumar has been bold in accepted some bitter truths.

I agree that no man, no book is complete.

Science is progessing or better we say it is continously evolving and same
is true for religion. No person is perfect and no book is complete, we are
on a journey aiming towards perfection.

But view point explained in one scripture is taken as 100% truth by a sect
because it belongs to a particular sect. The scripture or theory becomes
part of our ego. We start defending the system we are born in or attached
with. Actually no religion is perfect. The religion can become never perfect
until is adopts scientific approach and is based on Naturalism and Natural
laws of Nature.

On the other hand, I strongly believe all religions/scriptures should be
given due respect. Because as when they came to existence then they have
served the need of the society at that time. Definitely we must be thankful
to the early great men, reformers, thinkers for their contribution. But
should not follow them blindly as many things need revision with time. When
the scripture says different than what is in your front then the new
generation is upset, and feels that this religions and scriptures are a
burden. Let us pray for the time to come when different sects are ready for
the change required in their teachings and books. And the emphasis is given
more to values and morality hidden in ideals and scriptures than just in
rituals and dogmas.

So let us all be positive and logical as well.

Regards
Dr. Navneet Arora
IITR
09412307242

The world so cruel, disordered, biased etc. I feel the things have been
worsed without the religious systems we have.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr.V.JagadeeshKumar" <vjk...@ee.iitm.ac.in>
To: <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: CHEMICAL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND

[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]IT’S LIMITATION

> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�cassettes� of 5,000 to 7,000 base pairs

> > of
genetic code.
> They have
> > followed five step assembly process to synthesize M. genitalium.
> >
> > It is mentioned in Science Daily News
> > (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm) that

> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�From here, the team devised a five stage

> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�This is an exciting advance for our team

and the field.
> However, we
> > continue to work toward the ultimate goal of inserting the synthetic
> > chromosome into a cell and booting it up to create the first

> > synthetic [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]organism,� said Dan Gibson, lead
[WINDOWS-1252?]
> [WINDOWS-1252?]author.�

> >
> > The claims made by J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI) sounds very
> > exciting, in News columns but the reality is that they are presenting
> > only the old news. In this connection Dr. T. D. Singh, founder
> > director of Bhakivedanta Institute, attended a lecture on the origin
> > of life by the world-renowned reductionist, Professor Stanley Miller.
> > Dr. T. D. Singh asked Professor Stanley Miller during the question
> > and answer session, "Suppose I were to give you all of the ready
> > made bio- molecules -- DNA, proteins, lipids, sugars, etc. -- would
> > you be able to produce life within a test-tube by combining these
> molecules?"
> > Professor Miller replied, "That I don't know."
> >
> > We know that DNA is a dead matter and is not life. The dead matter
> > follows the laws of physics and chemistry which modern science has
> > figured out. But life and the body that has life violate the laws of
> > physics and chemistry. We can take a simple example: it is possible
> > to accurately predict the projectile motion of a dead bird by utilizing
> > the laws of mechanics, but we have no way to predict the motion of a
> > living bird by any mathematical law.
> >
> > Scientists have to think seriously that whether it is possible to
> > produce life (which is transcendental to the laws of physics and
> > chemistry) from a dead matter (which follows the laws of physics and
> > chemistry). Louis Pasteur made a similar argument,

[WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�How do

> you know
> > that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists ...
> > to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter?
> > ... How do you know that in 10,000 years one will not consider it
> > more likely that matter has emerged from

> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]life?�

> >
> > To study life we have the department of Biology. However, the present
> > Biology seems to be focusing only on the physics and chemistry of the
> > body of a living being. Consciousness is the prime symptom of a
> > living body that is absent in dead body/matter. We have to study
> > that element
> > (living being or soul), which is making a body living or dead. Hence,
> > we have to make a serious examination to the present Biological
> > studies to make a distinction between Department of Biology and
> > Department of Physics/Chemistry.
> >
> > We also request the group members to share their thoughts and studies
> > on the topic.
> >
> > Thanking you.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Sushen Krishna das
> >
> > [This message can also be found in HTML format on group pages at:
> > http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/artificial-life
> > ]
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2:28 pm, PJD <purushottama.narasin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I am very pleased to be a part of this e-group, which wants to discuss
> > > the difficult question in science from an eastern perspective. The

> > > recent message, [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�Chemical concept of
> > > life
and [WINDOWS-
> [WINDOWS-1252?]1252?]it�s
> > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]limitation�

>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/chemical-concep...
> > > ) gives a critic of some of the concepts of life from a physico-
> > > chemical perspective. The message concludes that

[WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�Thus

> the chemical
> > > concept of life does not seem to be very

[WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]promising.�

> However, the
> > > scientists are continuing to conduct many interesting researches in
> > > the line of chemical evolution of life.
> > >
> > > For example, I would like to share with the group the recent article

> > > that was published in [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�Science
[WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]Daily� in

> 2008 (see,
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm). The

> > > news cliamed that [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�A team of 17

researchers at the J.
> Craig Venter
> > > Institute (JCVI) has created the largest man-made DNA structure by
> > > synthesizing and assembling the 582,970 base pair genome of a
> > > bacterium, Mycoplasma genitalium JCVI-1.0. This work, published online
> > > today in the journal Science by Dan Gibson, Ph.D., et al, is the
> > > second of three key steps toward the

[WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]team�s goal of

> creating a fully
> > > synthetic organism. In the next step, which is ongoing at the JCVI,
> > > the team will attempt to create a living bacterial cell based entirely

> > > on the synthetically made [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]genome.�

> > >
> > > This seems to be quite interesting. Can we expect the claim of J.
> > > Craig Venter Institute that they will be able to create artificial
> > > living bacterial cell materialize?
> > >
> > > -pjd
> > >
> > > On Nov 12, 10:02 pm, "Dr. Sushen Krishna das" <jaga.sur...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > CHEMICAL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND IT'S LIMITATION
> > >
> > > > by
> > >
> > > > Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaj, (T. D. Singh, Ph.D.)
> > >
> > > > Founding Director of Bhaktivedanta Institute
> > >
> > > > Introduction
> > >
> > > > What is life? Everyone is curious about life-whether a scientist, a
> > > > philosopher, a poet, an artist or a religious man or woman. We all
> > > > want to know about the reality and purpose behind our
> > > > existence--"Why
> > > > are we born?", "why do we die?", "why do we suffer with diseases and
> > > > old age?", "what is our ultimate destination?" The Austrian
> > > > physicist

> > > > Erwin Schr�dinger, although not a biologist, wrote a classic

> > > read more �- Hide quoted text -

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[Satyanarayanan R. Chakravarthy]

Some time back, I was reading this book "Tycho and Kepler" which is a dual
biography of Tycho Brahe and his protege, Johannes Kepler. The time frame
is the 16th-17th century AD. It was mentioned there that during that time,
the prediction of the lunar eclipse had an error of about one month! In
comparison, the way the Hindu almanac is being published at least a year in
advance with eclipses being predicted within a few seconds (or minutes
perhaps) must be based on some "sutras" that must have been developed
around 1000 years before the above period in India. People who are more
knowledgeable on this might illuminate more. Basically, I am not talking
for Hindu or Indian science or its history, but just wanted to point out
that certainly it appears there was a stage in the past when other parts of
the world had a superior knowledge of science and technology in broad terms
than the "West" did (I guess this much could easily be said without being
controversial in any way). The point is, communication being bad back then
(still the Hindu number system travelled to Europe, primarily Athens and
Rome, through Arabia), the then westerners certainly failed to do a proper
"literature survey" on the current global scenario of science before doing
their work, it appears! If we are talking about "what if" scenarios, it's
plausible to suggest that if Sanskrit (and Tamil?) and some form of
Mandarin Chinese were made part of Cambridge curriculum some 400 years ago,
with all the attendant scientific/religious/
philosophical/social/economic/legal/moral texts from the East being part of
the education, Newton might have benefited from Aryabhatta and a whole
bunch of such "natural scientists" (surely, they were, indeed), and we
might be in a better position in terms of technological advancement today
than we are!! It seems very possible (this is historical speculation) that
the westerners of the past (and present?) were prejudiced against eastern
knowledge (or knowledge from elsewhere, in general), and we are probably
betraying the same prejudice in not giving the due recognition, at least in
historical significance, to "scientific works" other than of western origin
simply because we have followed essentially a westernized education since
the past century or more, all over the world. Of course, the point remains
that we can't be gloating over past achievements and must move on, but to
insist on the proper recognition of the historically first discoveries
arising from the east, to the extent that they do, and to get them to be
accepted the world over, should certainly provide some motivation for
future generations in these parts to rejuvenate that tradition instead of
developing and perpetrating a sense of inferiority.

Best,

Satya

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____________________________________
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Indian Institute of Technology Madras
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Fax : + 91 (0)44 2257 4002/0545/0509 (3 numbers)
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[Ravishankar Arunachalam]

Interesting observations...wish to add a few points:

(1)  The original article that started this thread had a lot of  criticism of how science views life, and promised an alternative "Vedantic perspective". I read through the article. I only found the criticism of science and could never get insight into the alternative perspective promised. The last couple of paras begin to touch on it, but then one is referred to another book, which has to be bought from a bookstore. I wonder why the author couldnt have presented the vedantic perspective completely, right from the beginning!

(2) Why do we mix up Indian contributions to science or mathematics with upanishads and vedas? As it is, its hard to separate fact from fiction. This confusion is probably the reason why many of us dont understand the full significance of the invention of the place-value system (mentioned below). It is of course, much more than just the usual "oh..yeah...we invented zero". It is such a fundamental contribution to arithmetic, which would never be so efficient without positional notation! It is of course well-recognized and followed by everyone (including "westerners").

(3) On a related note, here's probably the biggest irony of all: it turns out that our own schoolchildren have the most difficulty in grasping our invention! The quality of education in our schools is so bad that close to 50% of children studying in classes III-V cannot do a subtraction problem. (source: national-level ASER survey .See http://asercentre.org/asersurvey/aser08/data/in/in-lr2-08.php ) Why? because they don't understand place-value! Failure in maths leads to loss of confidence and these are the children who drop out before they even complete class 8.

We need to get some perspective on what to get outraged about - the present knowledge (or lack thereof) of millions of our children or our glorious past.
-Ravi

[Dr.V.JagadeeshKumar]

Dear Dr Arora

You wrote:
On the other hand, I strongly believe all religions/scriptures should be
given due respect.

No Sir. No religion can demand respect. All religions must be put to the
acid "test of reasoning" and should result in weeding of all nontruths,
fictions and fallacies. Unfortunately today if you apply this (just
reasoning only) no religion will have anything left to "respect".

Scriptures - Yes, If facts are written therein then we have to
give "respect". Even if the scriptures fail the "test of reason" we may be
left with poetry and literature and may still "respect" or adimre them.
vjkumar
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:59:44 +0530, arorafme wrote

> > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�cassettes� of 5,000 to

7,000 base pairs
> > > of
> genetic code.
> > They have
> > > followed five step assembly process to synthesize M. genitalium.
> > >
> > > It is mentioned in Science Daily News
> > > (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm) that

> > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�From here, the team

> > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�This is an exciting

advance for our team
> and the field.
> > However, we
> > > continue to work toward the ultimate goal of inserting the synthetic
> > > chromosome into a cell and booting it up to create the first

> > > synthetic [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]organism,� said
Dan Gibson, lead
> [WINDOWS-1252?]
> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]author.�

> > >
> > > The claims made by J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI) sounds very
> > > exciting, in News columns but the reality is that they are presenting
> > > only the old news. In this connection Dr. T. D. Singh, founder
> > > director of Bhakivedanta Institute, attended a lecture on the origin
> > > of life by the world-renowned reductionist, Professor Stanley Miller.
> > > Dr. T. D. Singh asked Professor Stanley Miller during the question
> > > and answer session, "Suppose I were to give you all of the ready
> > > made bio- molecules -- DNA, proteins, lipids, sugars, etc. -- would
> > > you be able to produce life within a test-tube by combining these
> > molecules?"
> > > Professor Miller replied, "That I don't know."
> > >
> > > We know that DNA is a dead matter and is not life. The dead matter
> > > follows the laws of physics and chemistry which modern science has
> > > figured out. But life and the body that has life violate the laws of
> > > physics and chemistry. We can take a simple example: it is possible
> > > to accurately predict the projectile motion of a dead bird by utilizing
> > > the laws of mechanics, but we have no way to predict the motion of a
> > > living bird by any mathematical law.
> > >
> > > Scientists have to think seriously that whether it is possible to
> > > produce life (which is transcendental to the laws of physics and
> > > chemistry) from a dead matter (which follows the laws of physics and
> > > chemistry). Louis Pasteur made a similar argument,

> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�How do

> > you know
> > > that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists ...
> > > to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter?
> > > ... How do you know that in 10,000 years one will not consider it
> > > more likely that matter has emerged from

> > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]life?�

> > >
> > > To study life we have the department of Biology. However, the present
> > > Biology seems to be focusing only on the physics and chemistry of the
> > > body of a living being. Consciousness is the prime symptom of a
> > > living body that is absent in dead body/matter. We have to study
> > > that element
> > > (living being or soul), which is making a body living or dead. Hence,
> > > we have to make a serious examination to the present Biological
> > > studies to make a distinction between Department of Biology and
> > > Department of Physics/Chemistry.
> > >
> > > We also request the group members to share their thoughts and studies
> > > on the topic.
> > >
> > > Thanking you.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Sushen Krishna das
> > >
> > > [This message can also be found in HTML format on group pages at:
> > > http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/artificial-life
> > > ]
> > >
> > > On Nov 15, 2:28 pm, PJD <purushottama.narasin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I am very pleased to be a part of this e-group, which wants to
discuss
> > > > the difficult question in science from an eastern perspective. The

> > > > recent message, [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-
1252?]�Chemical concept of
> > > > life
> and [WINDOWS-
> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]1252?]it�s
> > > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]limitation�

> >
> > (http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/chemical-concep...
> > > > ) gives a critic of some of the concepts of life from a physico-
> > > > chemical perspective. The message concludes that

> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�Thus

> > the chemical
> > > > concept of life does not seem to be very

> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]promising.�

> > However, the
> > > > scientists are continuing to conduct many interesting researches in
> > > > the line of chemical evolution of life.
> > > >
> > > > For example, I would like to share with the group the recent article

> > > > that was published in [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-
1252?]�Science
> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]Daily� in

> > 2008 (see,
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm). The

> > > > news cliamed that [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�A

team of 17
> researchers at the J.
> > Craig Venter
> > > > Institute (JCVI) has created the largest man-made DNA structure by
> > > > synthesizing and assembling the 582,970 base pair genome of a
> > > > bacterium, Mycoplasma genitalium JCVI-1.0. This work, published
online
> > > > today in the journal Science by Dan Gibson, Ph.D., et al, is the
> > > > second of three key steps toward the

> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]team�s goal of

> > creating a fully
> > > > synthetic organism. In the next step, which is ongoing at the JCVI,
> > > > the team will attempt to create a living bacterial cell based
entirely

> > > > on the synthetically made [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-
1252?]genome.�

> > > >
> > > > This seems to be quite interesting. Can we expect the claim of J.
> > > > Craig Venter Institute that they will be able to create artificial
> > > > living bacterial cell materialize?
> > > >
> > > > -pjd
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 12, 10:02 pm, "Dr. Sushen Krishna das" <jaga.sur...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > CHEMICAL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND IT'S LIMITATION
> > > >
> > > > > by
> > > >
> > > > > Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaj, (T. D. Singh, Ph.D.)
> > > >
> > > > > Founding Director of Bhaktivedanta Institute
> > > >
> > > > > Introduction
> > > >
> > > > > What is life? Everyone is curious about life-whether a scientist, a
> > > > > philosopher, a poet, an artist or a religious man or woman. We all
> > > > > want to know about the reality and purpose behind our
> > > > > existence--"Why
> > > > > are we born?", "why do we die?", "why do we suffer with diseases
and
> > > > > old age?", "what is our ultimate destination?" The Austrian
> > > > > physicist

> > > > > Erwin Schr�dinger, although not a biologist, wrote a classic

> > > > read more �- Hide quoted text -

[sixth sense]

Dear Dr. V. Jagadeesh Kumar,

 

I am very much happy to see the interesting discussions on science and religion. I would like to share a sloka from the conclusion chapter in Bhagavad-Gita:

 

In Bhagavad-Gita 18.6 it is mentioned that:

 

sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah

 

Translation: “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.”

 

Hence we can see that Lord Krishna is not saying us to follow religion, rather He is instructing Arjuna that he should leave all religion and simply surrender to Him. This fact actually very few people understand. The Lord has described in Bhgavad-Gita various kinds of knowledge, processes of religion, knowledge of the Supreme Brahman, knowledge of the Supersoul, knowledge of the different types of orders and statuses of social life, knowledge of the renounced order of life, knowledge of nonattachment, sense and mind control, meditation, etc. He has described in so many ways different types of religion. In summarizing Bhagavad-Gita, Lord Krishna says that Arjuna should give up all the processes that have been explained to him; he should simply surrender to Krishna. That surrender will save him from all kinds of sinful reactions, for the Lord personally promises to protect him.

 

Ordinarily it seems there is a serious gap in our thought process when we want to gain a tangible spiritual conception. We identify ourselves with different religions but we don’t go to a proper spiritual guide (Gurudev) to gain the spiritual knowledge. We are being sent by our parents to a good Professor in Physics to learn Physics and to a good Professor in Chemistry to learn Chemistry; but we are being never asked by our parents to go to a bonafide Spiritual Teacher to gain spiritual knowledge. This was their in past when the parents use to send their children to Gurudev to lean the spiritual science. Hence I believe without learning the spiritual science from an authorized teacher our knowledge on religion and scriptures must be defective. Hence, with this defective understanding we can’t comment rationally about religion and scriptures.

 

- Saffron Sky

University of Michigan

> > > > > Erwin Schrödinger, although not a biologist, wrote a classic

To post to this e-group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com

[Prof. P. Guha]

We actually expose our immaturity by commenting on a subject which we never tried to learn systematically. I quote an old saying:

 

He who knows not he knows not, he is a fool shun him.

He who knows he knows not, he is normal teach him.

He who knows not he knows, he is asleep awake him.

He who knows he knows, he is wise follow him.

 

 

Prof. P. Guha

AGFE

IIT

Kharagpur

[Bhupender Singh]

Thank you everyone for sharing interesting thoughts.

 

Bhupender Singh,

PostDoc,

My Profile | Blogs | Discussions

[Nachiketa Tiwari]

Dear Sir -

This whole notion of evaluating everything thru the "acid test of
reasoning" requires a tad of introspection. I say that because reasoning
itself requires evaluation in a contextual framework - the framework of
value-system (aka dharma).

Science by itself does not provide a purpose to humans. However, our value
systems do. Sans value systems, science becomes purposeless. It just gets
corrupted as "bauddhik vilaas" (intellectual gymnastics). For purposes of
illustration, figuring out the exact sequence of events during the 1st
millionth second of universe's life is a meaningless exercise in itself,
as all it does is stimulate neurons of a class of physicists. Such
activities, as Buddha rightly observed, were exercises in avyakrita, as
they did not make a diddly of a material impact on human happniness index.

Religions provide a mix of beliefs and values. The value part of many
religions overlaps with the Hindu notion of Dharma. But all value systems
(associated with different religions), I must add, are not identical. So,
this whole notion - that all religions are same - is not factually
correct.

nt

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IIT, Kanpur 208 016, India

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[Mandar V Deshmukh]

Wonderful ! It was indeed RNA.....please have some info on RNA!!!

Ribonucleic acid (RNA) is a biologically important type of molecule that consists of a long chain of nucleotide units. Each nucleotide consists of a nitrogenous base, a ribose sugar, and a phosphate. RNA is very similar to DNA, but differs in a few important structural details: in the cell, RNA is usually single-stranded, while DNA is usually double-stranded; RNA nucleotides contain ribose while DNA contains deoxyribose (a type of ribose that lacks one oxygen atom); and RNA has the base uracil rather than thymine that is present in DNA.

RNA is transcribed from DNA by enzymes called RNA polymerases and is generally further processed by other enzymes. RNA is central to protein synthesis. Here, a type of RNA called messenger RNA carries information from DNA to structures called ribosomes. These ribosomes are made from proteins and ribosomal RNAs, which come together to form a molecular machine that can read messenger RNAs and translate the information they carry into proteins. There are many RNAs with other roles – in particular regulating which genes are expressed, but also as the genomes of most viruses.

Contents [hide] 1 Structure 2 Comparison with DNA 3 Synthesis 4 Types of RNA 4.1 Overview 4.2 In translation 4.3 Regulatory RNAs 4.4 In RNA processing 4.5 RNA genomes 4.6 In reverse transcription 4.7 Double-stranded RNA 5 Discovery 6 See also 7 References 8 External links

[edit] Structure

Watson-Crick base pairs in a siRNA (hydrogen atoms are not shown)

Each nucleotide in RNA contains a ribose sugar, with carbons numbered 1' through 5'. A base is attached to the 1' position, generally adenine (A), cytosine (C), guanine (G) or uracil (U). Adenine and guanine are purines, cytosine and uracil are pyrimidines. A phosphate group is attached to the 3' position of one ribose and the 5' position of the next. The phosphate groups have a negative charge each at physiological pH, making RNA a charged molecule (polyanion). The bases may form hydrogen bonds between cytosine and guanine, between adenine and uracil and between guanine and uracil.^[1] However other interactions are possible, such as a group of adenine bases binding to each other in a bulge,^[2] or the GNRA tetraloop that has a guanine–adenine base-pair.^[1]

Chemical structure of RNA

An important structural feature of RNA that distinguishes it from DNA is the presence of a hydroxyl group at the 2' position of the ribose sugar. The presence of this functional group causes the helix to adopt the A-form geometry rather than the B-form most commonly observed in DNA.^[3] This results in a very deep and narrow major groove and a shallow and wide minor groove.^[4] A second consequence of the presence of the 2'-hydroxyl group is that in conformationally flexible regions of an RNA molecule (that is, not involved in formation of a double helix), it can chemically attack the adjacent phosphodiester bond to cleave the backbone.^[5]

Secondary structure of a telomerase RNA.

RNA is transcribed with only four bases (adenine, cytosine, guanine and uracil),^[6] but there are numerous modified bases and sugars in mature RNAs. Pseudouridine (Ψ), in which the linkage between uracil and ribose is changed from a C–N bond to a C–C bond, and ribothymidine (T), are found in various places (most notably in the TΨC loop of tRNA).^[7] Another notable modified base is hypoxanthine, a deaminated adenine base whose nucleoside is called inosine (I). Inosine plays a key role in the wobble hypothesis of the genetic code.^[8] There are nearly 100 other naturally occurring modified nucleosides,^[9] of which pseudouridine and nucleosides with 2'-O-methylribose are the most common.^[10] The specific roles of many of these modifications in RNA are not fully understood. However, it is notable that in ribosomal RNA, many of the post-transcriptional modifications occur in highly functional regions, such as the peptidyl transferase center and the subunit interface, implying that they are important for normal function.^[11]

The functional form of single stranded RNA molecules, just like proteins, frequently requires a specific tertiary structure. The scaffold for this structure is provided by secondary structural elements which are hydrogen bonds within the molecule. This leads to several recognizable "domains" of secondary structure like hairpin loops, bulges and internal loops.^[12] Since RNA is charged, metal ions such as Mg²⁺ are needed to stabilise many secondary structures.^[13]

[edit] Comparison with DNA

RNA and DNA are both nucleic acids, but differ in three main ways. First, unlike DNA which is double-stranded, RNA is a single-stranded molecule in most of its biological roles and has a much shorter chain of nucleotides. Second, while DNA contains deoxyribose, RNA contains ribose (there is no hydroxyl group attached to the pentose ring in the 2' position in DNA). These hydroxyl groups make RNA less stable than DNA because it is more prone to hydrolysis. Third, the complementary base to adenine is not thymine, as it is in DNA, but rather uracil, which is an unmethylated form of thymine.^[14]

The 50S ribosomal subunit. RNA is in orange, protein in blue. The active site is in the middle (red).

Like DNA, most biologically active RNAs, including mRNA, tRNA, rRNA, snRNAs and other non-coding RNAs, contain self-complementary sequences that allow parts of the RNA to fold and pair with itself to form double helices. Structural analysis of these RNAs have revealed that they are highly structured. Unlike DNA, their structures do not consist of long double helices but rather collections of short helices packed together into structures akin to proteins. In this fashion, RNAs can achieve chemical catalysis, like enzymes.^[15] For instance, determination of the structure of the ribosome—an enzyme that catalyzes peptide bond formation—revealed that its active site is composed entirely of RNA.^[16]

[edit] Synthesis

Synthesis of RNA is usually catalyzed by an enzyme—RNA polymerase—using DNA as a template, a process known as transcription. Initiation of transcription begins with the binding of the enzyme to a promoter sequence in the DNA (usually found "upstream" of a gene). The DNA double helix is unwound by the helicase activity of the enzyme. The enzyme then progresses along the template strand in the 3’ to 5’ direction, synthesizing a complementary RNA molecule with elongation occurring in the 5’ to 3’ direction. The DNA sequence also dictates where termination of RNA synthesis will occur.^[17]

RNAs are often modified by enzymes after transcription. For example, a poly(A) tail and a 5' cap are added to eukaryotic pre-mRNA and introns are removed by the spliceosome.

There are also a number of RNA-dependent RNA polymerases that use RNA as their template for synthesis of a new strand of RNA. For instance, a number of RNA viruses (such as poliovirus) use this type of enzyme to replicate their genetic material.^[18] Also, RNA-dependent RNA polymerase is part of the RNA interference pathway in many organisms.^[19]

[edit] Types of RNA

See also: List of RNAs

[edit] Overview

Structure of a hammerhead ribozyme, a ribozyme that cuts RNA

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is the RNA that carries information from DNA to the ribosome, the sites of protein synthesis (translation) in the cell. The coding sequence of the mRNA determines the amino acid sequence in the protein that is produced.^[20] Many RNAs do not code for protein however (about 97% of the transcriptial output is non-protein-coding in eukaryotes ^{[21][22][23][24]}).

These so-called non-coding RNAs ("ncRNA") can be encoded by their own genes (RNA genes), but can also derive from mRNA introns.^[25] The most prominent examples of non-coding RNAs are transfer RNA (tRNA) and ribosomal RNA (rRNA), both of which are involved in the process of translation.^[14] There are also non-coding RNAs involved in gene regulation, RNA processing and other roles. Certain RNAs are able to catalyse chemical reactions such as cutting and ligating other RNA molecules,^[26] and the catalysis of peptide bond formation in the ribosome;^[16] these are known as ribozymes.

[edit] In translation

Messenger RNA (mRNA) carries information about a protein sequence to the ribosomes, the protein synthesis factories in the cell. It is coded so that every three nucleotides (a codon) correspond to one amino acid. In eukaryotic cells, once precursor mRNA (pre-mRNA) has been transcribed from DNA, it is processed to mature mRNA. This removes its introns—non-coding sections of the pre-mRNA. The mRNA is then exported from the nucleus to the cytoplasm, where it is bound to ribosomes and translated into its corresponding protein form with the help of tRNA. In prokaryotic cells, which do not have nucleus and cytoplasm compartments, mRNA can bind to ribosomes while it is being transcribed from DNA. After a certain amount of time the message degrades into its component nucleotides with the assistance of ribonucleases.^[20]

Transfer RNA (tRNA) is a small RNA chain of about 80 nucleotides that transfers a specific amino acid to a growing polypeptide chain at the ribosomal site of protein synthesis during translation. It has sites for amino acid attachment and an anticodon region for codon recognition that binds to a specific sequence on the messenger RNA chain through hydrogen bonding.^[25]

Ribosomal RNA (rRNA) is the catalytic component of the ribosomes. Eukaryotic ribosomes contain four different rRNA molecules: 18S, 5.8S, 28S and 5S rRNA. Three of the rRNA molecules are synthesized in the nucleolus, and one is synthesized elsewhere. In the cytoplasm, ribosomal RNA and protein combine to form a nucleoprotein called a ribosome. The ribosome binds mRNA and carries out protein synthesis. Several ribosomes may be attached to a single mRNA at any time.^[20] rRNA is extremely abundant and makes up 80% of the 10 mg/ml RNA found in a typical eukaryotic cytoplasm.^[27]

Transfer-messenger RNA (tmRNA) is found in many bacteria and plastids. It tags proteins encoded by mRNAs that lack stop codons for degradation and prevents the ribosome from stalling.^[28]

[edit] Regulatory RNAs

Several types of RNA can downregulate gene expression by being complementary to a part of an mRNA or a gene's DNA. MicroRNAs (miRNA; 21-22 nt) are found in eukaryotes and act through RNA interference (RNAi), where an effector complex of miRNA and enzymes can break down mRNA which the miRNA is complementary to, block the mRNA from being translated, or accelerate its degradation.^[29][30] While small interfering RNAs (siRNA; 20-25 nt) are often produced by breakdown of viral RNA, there are also endogenous sources of siRNAs.^[31][32] siRNAs act through RNA interference in a fashion similar to miRNAs. Some miRNAs and siRNAs can cause genes they target to be methylated, thereby decreasing or increasing transcription of those genes.^[33][34][35] Animals have Piwi-interacting RNAs (piRNA; 29-30 nt) which are active in germline cells and are thought to be a defense against transposons and play a role in gametogenesis.^[36][37] All prokaryotes have CRISPR RNAs, a regulatory system analogous to RNA interference.^[38] Antisense RNAs are widespread; most downregulate a gene, but a few are activators of transcription.^[39] One way antisense RNA can act is by binding to an mRNA, forming double-stranded RNA that is enzymatically degraded.^[40] There are many long noncoding RNAs that regulate genes in eukaryotes,^[41] one such RNA is Xist which coats one X chromosome in female mammals and inactivates it.^[42]

An mRNA may contain regulatory elements itself, such as riboswitches, in the 5' untranslated region or 3' untranslated region; these cis-regulatory elements regulate the activity of that mRNA.^[43] The untranslated regions can also contain elements that regulate other genes.^[44]

[edit] In RNA processing

Uridine to pseudouridine is a common RNA modification.

Many RNAs are involved in modifying other RNAs. Introns are spliced out of pre-mRNA by spliceosomes, which contain several small nuclear RNAs (snRNA),^[14] or the introns can be ribozymes that are spliced by themselves.^[45] RNA can also be altered by having its nucleotides modified to other nucleotides than A, C, G and U. In eukaryotes, modifications of RNA nucleotides are generally directed by small nucleolar RNAs (snoRNA; 60-300 nt),^[25] found in the nucleolus and cajal bodies. snoRNAs associate with enzymes and guide them to a spot on an RNA by basepairing to that RNA. These enzymes then perform the nucleotide modification. rRNAs and tRNAs are extensively modified, but snRNAs and mRNAs can also be the target of base modification.^[46][47]

[edit] RNA genomes

Like DNA, RNA can carry genetic information. RNA viruses have genomes composed of RNA, and a variety of proteins encoded by that genome. The viral genome is replicated by some of those proteins, while other proteins protect the genome as the virus particle moves to a new host cell. Viroids are another group of pathogens, but they consist only of RNA, do not encode any protein and are replicated by a host plant cell's polymerase.^[48]

[edit] In reverse transcription

Reverse transcribing viruses replicate their genomes by reverse transcribing DNA copies from their RNA; these DNA copies are then transcribed to new RNA. Retrotransposons also spread by copying DNA and RNA from one another,^[49] and telomerase contains an RNA that is used as template for building the ends of eukaryotic chromosomes.^[50]

[edit] Double-stranded RNA

Double-stranded RNA (dsRNA) is RNA with two complementary strands, similar to the DNA found in all cells. dsRNA forms the genetic material of some viruses (double-stranded RNA viruses). Double-stranded RNA such as viral RNA or siRNA can trigger RNA interference in eukaryotes, as well as interferon response in vertebrates.^[51][52][53]

[edit] Discovery

Nucleic acids were discovered in 1868 by Friedrich Miescher, who called the material 'nuclein' since it was found in the nucleus.^[54] It was later discovered that prokaryotic cells, which do not have a nucleus, also contain nucleic acids. The role of RNA in protein synthesis was suspected already in 1939.^[55] Severo Ochoa won the 1959 Nobel Prize in Medicine after he discovered how RNA is synthesized.^[56] The sequence of the 77 nucleotides of a yeast tRNA was found by Robert W. Holley in 1965,^[57] winning Holley the 1968 Nobel Prize in Medicine. In 1967, Carl Woese realized RNA can be catalytic and proposed that the earliest forms of life relied on RNA both to carry genetic information and to catalyze biochemical reactions—an RNA world.^[58][59] In 1976, Walter Fiers and his team determined the first complete nucleotide sequence of an RNA virus genome, that of bacteriophage MS2.^[60] In 1990 it was found in petunia that introduced genes can silence similar genes of the plant's own, now known to be a result of RNA interference.^[61][62] At about the same time, 22 nt long RNAs, now called microRNAs, were found to have a role in the development of C. elegans.^[63] The discovery of gene regulatory RNAs has led to attempts to develop drugs made of RNA, such as siRNA, to silence genes.^[64]

[edit] See also

See also

This article is part of the series on: Gene expression a Molecular biology topic (portal) (Glossary)

Introduction to Genetics

General flow: DNA > RNA > Protein

special transfers (RNA > RNA, RNA > DNA, Protein > Protein)

Genetic code

Transcription

Transcription (Transcription factors, RNA Polymerase,promoter) Prokaryotic / Archaeal / Eukaryotic

post-transcriptional modification (hnRNA,Splicing)

Translation

Translation (Ribosome,tRNA) Prokaryotic / Archaeal / Eukaryotic

post-translational modification (functional groups, peptides, structural changes)

gene regulation

epigenetic regulation (Genomic imprinting)

transcriptional regulation

post-transcriptional regulation (sequestration, alternative splicing,miRNA)

translational regulation

post-translational regulation (reversible,irreversible)

ask a question , edit

Genetics Molecular biology Oligonucleotide synthesis Quantification of nucleic acids RNA Ontology Consortium Sequence profiling tool RNA extraction RNA structure prediction

Antisense RNA Long noncoding RNA MicroRNA small interfering RNA (siRNA) Small nucleolar RNA (snoRNA) (piRNA)

Guide RNA Small nuclear RNA Transfer RNA Ribosomal RNA Riboswitch

[edit] References

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[edit] External links

Wikimedia Commons has media related to: RNA

• RNA World website Link collection (structures, sequences, tools, journals)
• Nucleic Acid Database Images of DNA, RNA and complexes.

[hide] v • d • e Genetics Introduction · History · Related topics · List of organizations   Key components Chromosome · DNA · Nucleotide · RNA · Genome   Fields of genetics Classical genetics · Conservation genetics · Ecological genetics · Immunogenetics · Molecular genetics · Population genetics · Quantitative genetics   Related topics Geneticist · Genomics · Genetic code · Medical genetics · Molecular evolution · Reverse genetics · Genetic engineering · Genetic diversity · Heredity

[show] v • d • e Types of RNA Protein synthesis Messenger RNA · Ribosomal RNA · Signal recognition particle RNA · Transfer RNA · Transfer-messenger RNA   RNA processing Small nuclear RNA · Small nucleolar RNA · Guide RNA · RNase P · RNase MRP · Y RNA   Gene regulation Antisense RNA · Cis-natural antisense transcript · CRISPR RNA · Long noncoding RNA  · MicroRNA · Piwi-interacting RNA · Repeat-associated siRNA · Small interfering RNA · Trans-acting siRNA   Cis-regulatory elements Riboswitch · SECIS element   Parasites Retrotransposon · Reverse transcribing virus · RNA virus · Viroid   Other Telomerase RNA · Vault RNA

[show] v • d • e Types of nucleic acids Constituents Nucleobases · Nucleosides · Nucleotides · Deoxynucleotides   Ribonucleic acids (coding and non-coding) translation: mRNA (pre-mRNA/hnRNA) · tRNA · rRNA · tmRNA regulatory: miRNA · siRNA · piRNA · aRNA RNA processing: snRNA · snoRNA other/ungrouped: gRNA · shRNA · stRNA · ta-siRNA   Deoxyribonucleic acids cDNA · cpDNA · gDNA · msDNA · mtDNA   Nucleic acid analogues GNA · LNA · PNA · TNA · morpholino   Cloning vectors phagemid · plasmid · lambda phage · cosmid · P1 phage · fosmid · BAC · YAC · HAC   Major families of biochemicals Saccharides/Carbohydrates/Glycosides · Amino acids/Peptides/Proteins/Glycoproteins · Lipids/Terpenes/Steroids/Carotenoids · Alkaloids/Nucleobases/Nucleic acids · Cofactors/Phenylpropanoids/Polyketides/Tetrapyrroles

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA"

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: CHEMICAL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND [UTF-8?][UTF-8?][UTF-8?]ITS LIMITATION

Dear Dr. V. Jagadeesh Kumar,   I am very much happy to see the interesting discussions on science and religion. I would like to share a sloka from the conclusion chapter in Bhagavad-Gita:   In Bhagavad-Gita 18.6 it is mentioned that:   sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah   Translation: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.   Hence we can see that Lord Krishna is not saying us to follow religion, rather He is instructing Arjuna that he should leave all religion and simply surrender to Him. This fact actually very few people understand. The Lord has described in Bhgavad-Gita various kinds of knowledge, processes of religion, knowledge of the Supreme Brahman, knowledge of the Supersoul, knowledge of the different types of orders and statuses of social life, knowledge of the renounced order of life, knowledge of nonattachment, sense and mind control, meditation, etc. He has described in so many ways different types of religion. In summarizing Bhagavad-Gita, Lord Krishna says that Arjuna should give up all the processes that have been explained to him; he should simply surrender to Krishna. That surrender will save him from all kinds of sinful reactions, for the Lord personally promises to protect him.

Ordinarily it seems there is a serious gap in our thought process when we want to gain a tangible spiritual conception. We identify ourselves with different religions but we dont go to a proper spiritual guide (Gurudev) to gain the spiritual knowledge. We are being sent by our parents to a good Professor in Physics to learn Physics and to a good Professor in Chemistry to learn Chemistry; but we are being never asked by our parents to go to a bonafide Spiritual Teacher to gain spiritual knowledge. This was their in past when the parents use to send their children to Gurudev to lean the spiritual science. Hence I believe without learning the spiritual science from an authorized teacher our knowledge on religion and scriptures must be defective. Hence, with this defective understanding we cant comment rationally about religion and scriptures.

> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]1252?]its

> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]teams goal of

> > > > > Erwin Schrdinger, although not a biologist, wrote a classic

[Bhupender Singh]

Related to the very first post, I found one blog.. you can have a look at it. Link is

 

http://www.indianscience.in/ksantosh23/blog/

 

 

Bhupender Singh,

PostDoc,

Department of Biomedical and Pharamceutical Sciences,

University of Rhode Island, RI. USA.

My Profile | Blogs | Discussions

Chemical structure of RNA

An important structural feature of RNA that distinguishes it from DNA is the presence of a hydroxyl group at the 2' position of the ribose sugar. The presence of this functional group causes the helix to adopt the A-form geometry rather than the B-form most commonly observed in DNA.^[3] This results in a very deep and narrow major groove and a shallow and wide minor groove.^[4] A second consequence of the presence of the 2'-hydroxyl group is that in conformationally flexible regions of an RNA molecule (that is, not involved in formation of a double helix), it can chemically attack the adjacent phosphodiester bond to cleave the backbone.^[5]

[arorafme]

Dear VJ Kumar
I again appreicate your clarity in your view. May I request you to read
auto-biography of Sh. S.N. Agnihotri Ji, he was firm believer in God
initially then he became Naturewadi and then Vikasvadi (Evolutionist). I
have been deeply influenced by his spiritual journey and he said 120 years
back that the any scripture/religion and its teaching is not the final
authority, they should be tested in the light of truth and test of
reasoning, the investigation must be scientific in approach.
Respect for all the religions I mentioned was to regard the positivity in
built in these systems due to the noble feelings in their
founders/teachings. But nodoubt scanning is must.
I think if u provide me u tele no. I will talk to u directly some time.

Navneet Arora
094123-07242
IIT Roorkee

>> > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�cassettes� of 5,000 to

> 7,000 base pairs
>> > > of
>> genetic code.
>> > They have
>> > > followed five step assembly process to synthesize M. genitalium.
>> > >
>> > > It is mentioned in Science Daily News
>> > > (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm) that

>> > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�From here, the team

>> > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�This is an exciting

> advance for our team
>> and the field.
>> > However, we
>> > > continue to work toward the ultimate goal of inserting the synthetic
>> > > chromosome into a cell and booting it up to create the first

>> > > synthetic [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]organism,�

>> said
> Dan Gibson, lead
>> [WINDOWS-1252?]

>> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]author.�

>> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�How do

>> > you know
>> > > that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists
>> ...
>> > > to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter?
>> > > ... How do you know that in 10,000 years one will not consider it
>> > > more likely that matter has emerged from

>> > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]life?�

> 1252?]�Chemical concept of
>> > > > life
>> and [WINDOWS-
>> > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]1252?]it�s
>> > > > [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]limitation�

>> >
>> > (http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/web/chemical-concep...
>> > > > ) gives a critic of some of the concepts of life from a physico-
>> > > > chemical perspective. The message concludes that

>> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�Thus

>> > the chemical
>> > > > concept of life does not seem to be very

>> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]promising.�

>> > However, the
>> > > > scientists are continuing to conduct many interesting researches
>> in
>> > > > the line of chemical evolution of life.
>> > > >
>> > > > For example, I would like to share with the group the recent
>> article
>> > > > that was published in [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-

> 1252?]�Science
>> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]Daily� in

>> > 2008 (see,
>> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124175924.htm). The

>> > > > news cliamed that [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]�A

> team of 17
>> researchers at the J.
>> > Craig Venter
>> > > > Institute (JCVI) has created the largest man-made DNA structure by
>> > > > synthesizing and assembling the 582,970 base pair genome of a
>> > > > bacterium, Mycoplasma genitalium JCVI-1.0. This work, published
> online
>> > > > today in the journal Science by Dan Gibson, Ph.D., et al, is the
>> > > > second of three key steps toward the

>> [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?]team�s goal of

>> > creating a fully
>> > > > synthetic organism. In the next step, which is ongoing at the
>> JCVI,
>> > > > the team will attempt to create a living bacterial cell based
> entirely
>> > > > on the synthetically made [WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-1252?][WINDOWS-

> 1252?]genome.�

>> > > >
>> > > > This seems to be quite interesting. Can we expect the claim of J.
>> > > > Craig Venter Institute that they will be able to create artificial
>> > > > living bacterial cell materialize?
>> > > >
>> > > > -pjd
>> > > >
>> > > > On Nov 12, 10:02 pm, "Dr. Sushen Krishna das"
>> <jaga.sur...@gmail.com>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > CHEMICAL CONCEPT OF LIFE AND IT'S LIMITATION
>> > > >
>> > > > > by
>> > > >
>> > > > > Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaj, (T. D. Singh, Ph.D.)
>> > > >
>> > > > > Founding Director of Bhaktivedanta Institute
>> > > >
>> > > > > Introduction
>> > > >
>> > > > > What is life? Everyone is curious about life-whether a
>> scientist, a
>> > > > > philosopher, a poet, an artist or a religious man or woman. We
>> all
>> > > > > want to know about the reality and purpose behind our
>> > > > > existence--"Why
>> > > > > are we born?", "why do we die?", "why do we suffer with diseases
> and
>> > > > > old age?", "what is our ultimate destination?" The Austrian
>> > > > > physicist

>> > > > > Erwin Schr�dinger, although not a biologist, wrote a classic

>> > > > read more �- Hide quoted text -

[Dr.V.JagadeeshKumar]

Dear Sri Navneet Arora

Life has several purposes. Survive(adapt and live), reproduce (pass on the
genes), eat and avoid being eaten.

Darwin's theory of evolution, we know now, is a fact. The fact that we and
all the apes evolved from a common ancestor (please note we did not evolve
from the present set of apes. They are as different from the common ancestor
as we are now) was though accepted but not proved beyond reasonable doubt
till in 2008 the final clinching evidence was unearthed. While all the apes
have 48 chromosomes, we have only 46. Thanks to the genome project we now
know for sure that two pairs of chromosomes in our gene structure are indeed
evolved as a fusion from four pairs.

Since evolution is true, the need for a creater to explain life vanishes. If
there was/is a creater of life then he/she/it must be dumb as 99.9 % of
species that have been created have already become extinct! Oh!

Surely we now possess several characteristics that are, at present, can not
be easily understood or explained by "science". Examples 1) Our ability to
overcome the basic edict of evolution - sex - only for reproduction. 2) Love
3) sacrifice....

This does not mean a "creater" or "purpose to life" can explain these
characteristics either.

We do have to go a long way before the mysteries of the universe (at least
the most important ones) are unravelled.

If you are interested there are sevral videos in youtube by Professor
Dawkins and others.

Regards
vjkumar
On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 13:02:02 +0530, arorafme wrote