Don't buy WordTracker (or Keyword Discovery)
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Corey
Apr 7, 2008, 4:05:44 PM4/7/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
After my last SEO class, I decided to cancel my subscription to
Keyword Discovery. I finally thought about the several reasons why I
just don't need this "tool" for keyword research.
(For those of you not familiar with KD, it's basically the same thing
as WordTracker.)
1. I'm spending $69 every month for a program I use once every 4-6
months.
2. The free Keyword Research tool by SEO Book works better.
3. I can buy WordTracker for one day if I ever really did need it.
4. A thesaurus works even better for keyword research.
5. You only really do big time keyword research when you start a new
campaign.
6. Google AdWords data is far more accurate anyway.
Overall, it seems like WordTracker and Keyword Discovery were the
primary tools of every SEO a few years ago. Now, they are practically
worthless to me.
Anyone else notice the same thing?
Keyword Discovery. I finally thought about the several reasons why I
just don't need this "tool" for keyword research.
(For those of you not familiar with KD, it's basically the same thing
as WordTracker.)
1. I'm spending $69 every month for a program I use once every 4-6
months.
2. The free Keyword Research tool by SEO Book works better.
3. I can buy WordTracker for one day if I ever really did need it.
4. A thesaurus works even better for keyword research.
5. You only really do big time keyword research when you start a new
campaign.
6. Google AdWords data is far more accurate anyway.
Overall, it seems like WordTracker and Keyword Discovery were the
primary tools of every SEO a few years ago. Now, they are practically
worthless to me.
Anyone else notice the same thing?
Darlene Moore
Apr 14, 2008, 10:40:32 PM4/14/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
I agree Corey!
Sometimes I work with niche sites for which you just can't find
keywords using these tools - think French language, Canadian
Citizens...
Because these sites are large and typically have analytics, I use
their own data for keyword research! I may supplement it a bit with
external stuff but it is amazing how much information can be gleaned
from a site's own data!
Darlene
PS WordTracker has a free version of the tool (that doesn't require a
password) which I use all the time...
Sometimes I work with niche sites for which you just can't find
keywords using these tools - think French language, Canadian
Citizens...
Because these sites are large and typically have analytics, I use
their own data for keyword research! I may supplement it a bit with
external stuff but it is amazing how much information can be gleaned
from a site's own data!
Darlene
PS WordTracker has a free version of the tool (that doesn't require a
password) which I use all the time...
Karen
Apr 20, 2008, 7:18:36 AM4/20/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
Since we're on the topic of keyword research tools and FREE keyword
research tools, I am wondering if you use WebCEO (does it use WT?) and
if so, if you think it's worth purchasing. First, it offers a keyword
ranking report that I don't think any of the free tools offer. Do you
use these ranking stats and if so, how do you obtain? Secondly,
after reading this, I compared a keyword research report from WebCEO
that a friend did for me for a site. After reading this, I tried some
of the terms from the WebCEO report in the free SEO Book tool:
http://tools.seobook.com/keyword-tools/seobook/. There was a huge,
huge difference -- SEO Book gave them much, much lower hits per day.
Here are some examples:
Leadership Management Training (2,487 hits on WebCEO) got 31 hits on
SEO Book
performance management (1,187 hits on WebCEO) got 307 hits on SEO Book
Corporate Culture (3,886 hits on WebCEO) got 150 on SEO Book
I asked my friend about that and she said that WT reports on the last
90 days. However, can that be the reason for such a discrepancy? I
am probably missing something. She also gave me great words of wisdom:
that the best tactic is to pick a tool - one tool - and use it
consistently. Because the more important factor is tracking over time
using the same yardstick.
So, before spending the $300 or so for WebCEO plus the yearly updates
as my yardstick, just doing my research to see if you think it has
features that are worth it vs. the free tools and to see if anyone has
any ideas about the discrepancies. Also, I have found the free
keyword research tool in Google Analytics or AdSense (can't remember
which) that you can use before starting campaigns (no purchase) to be
very good. Anyone else?
research tools, I am wondering if you use WebCEO (does it use WT?) and
if so, if you think it's worth purchasing. First, it offers a keyword
ranking report that I don't think any of the free tools offer. Do you
use these ranking stats and if so, how do you obtain? Secondly,
after reading this, I compared a keyword research report from WebCEO
that a friend did for me for a site. After reading this, I tried some
of the terms from the WebCEO report in the free SEO Book tool:
http://tools.seobook.com/keyword-tools/seobook/. There was a huge,
huge difference -- SEO Book gave them much, much lower hits per day.
Here are some examples:
Leadership Management Training (2,487 hits on WebCEO) got 31 hits on
SEO Book
performance management (1,187 hits on WebCEO) got 307 hits on SEO Book
Corporate Culture (3,886 hits on WebCEO) got 150 on SEO Book
I asked my friend about that and she said that WT reports on the last
90 days. However, can that be the reason for such a discrepancy? I
am probably missing something. She also gave me great words of wisdom:
that the best tactic is to pick a tool - one tool - and use it
consistently. Because the more important factor is tracking over time
using the same yardstick.
So, before spending the $300 or so for WebCEO plus the yearly updates
as my yardstick, just doing my research to see if you think it has
features that are worth it vs. the free tools and to see if anyone has
any ideas about the discrepancies. Also, I have found the free
keyword research tool in Google Analytics or AdSense (can't remember
which) that you can use before starting campaigns (no purchase) to be
very good. Anyone else?
Corey
Apr 21, 2008, 8:48:12 AM4/21/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
I think quite a few of us use Web CEO. It has a bunch of features and
is not too expensive.
I basically use it as an FTP client and to check rankings on
occasion.
I don't use it for keyword research. I'm quite sure it uses
WordTracker data.
Use brainstorming, analytics, and AdWords for keyword research. It's
much better than any of these tools.
is not too expensive.
I basically use it as an FTP client and to check rankings on
occasion.
I don't use it for keyword research. I'm quite sure it uses
WordTracker data.
Use brainstorming, analytics, and AdWords for keyword research. It's
much better than any of these tools.
Karen
Apr 21, 2008, 10:59:39 AM4/21/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
Thanks Corey. Any idea about the ranking discrepancies?
Corey
Apr 22, 2008, 9:09:53 AM4/22/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
The discrepancies are because the programs use different methods for
gathering their information. Google does not provide data on which
search terms are used. Therefore, they do not have accurate data.
They can't get it from Google, so they gather it in other ways.
For example, both WordTracker and Keyword Discovery have arrangements
with ISPs (Internet Service Providers). This means that they are
tracking the Internet usage of a certain amount of users. They then
report back on which keywords they type in when searching.
See the difference? They can't get data from Google, so they get it
from the other direction. They track users through their Internet
provider.
The numbers will almost always be different. They will almost always
be VERY low and inconclusive for the same reason.
Use brainstorming and AdWords data. It's much better.
Use the tools to find some hidden gems. That's about it.
gathering their information. Google does not provide data on which
search terms are used. Therefore, they do not have accurate data.
They can't get it from Google, so they gather it in other ways.
For example, both WordTracker and Keyword Discovery have arrangements
with ISPs (Internet Service Providers). This means that they are
tracking the Internet usage of a certain amount of users. They then
report back on which keywords they type in when searching.
See the difference? They can't get data from Google, so they get it
from the other direction. They track users through their Internet
provider.
The numbers will almost always be different. They will almost always
be VERY low and inconclusive for the same reason.
Use brainstorming and AdWords data. It's much better.
Use the tools to find some hidden gems. That's about it.
Karen
Apr 23, 2008, 7:03:09 AM4/23/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
Thanks Corey. The discrpencies were between WebCEO and Keyword
Discovery which I thought both use WordTracker. That's why I am
confused.
I understand how they get data. So Keyword Discovery doesn't use Word
Tracker? It and WT both use ISPs separately? Or, they all use WT
which uses ISPs?
In terms of brainstorming, I remember during a class you recommended
talking to your clients and asking them how they would describe what
their business does - for keyword phrases - and to ask their clients,
friends and associates. Do you make that a part of the process for
every client?
Discovery which I thought both use WordTracker. That's why I am
confused.
I understand how they get data. So Keyword Discovery doesn't use Word
Tracker? It and WT both use ISPs separately? Or, they all use WT
which uses ISPs?
In terms of brainstorming, I remember during a class you recommended
talking to your clients and asking them how they would describe what
their business does - for keyword phrases - and to ask their clients,
friends and associates. Do you make that a part of the process for
every client?
Corey
Apr 23, 2008, 9:14:40 AM4/23/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
WebCEO uses WordTracker data.
Keyword Discovery is a completely different program using different
data.
Yes, talking to the business owner extensively is important. But so
is talking to almost anyone. Get a roomful of almost any five people
discussing keywords and you'll almost always come up with incredible
ideas.
Keyword Discovery is a completely different program using different
data.
Yes, talking to the business owner extensively is important. But so
is talking to almost anyone. Get a roomful of almost any five people
discussing keywords and you'll almost always come up with incredible
ideas.
glaikit
Apr 23, 2008, 9:47:19 AM4/23/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
Hi karen, Corey,
It was 'my bad' on confusing Karen about the data sources for WebCEO
and KeywordDiscovery - I thought they used the same dB.
Karen, I wouldn't worry about which source to use! When I am
confronted with a new site, the FIRST thing I look at is the content
of the site, the product/service, the message, and think about their
target audience. Corey's right - brainstorm over some "likely" words
and phrases that the audience would use to find this product or
service.
Assuming I do not yet have enough access to the site, or cannot yet
set up Analytics and let's say PPC has been nixed by the client - they
want the SEO first, up front and now.
Well, what to do? I run my brainstormed and 'gut feeling' words
through WebCEO's keyword tool. This at least gives me a starting
point! I look for words/phrases that are too broad and assume we'll
never make it for them. (But if you tack on NC, Asheville, North
Carolina, etc you've got a fighting chance if it's a geographically-
limited business.) I look for unexpected turns of phrase that people
have used. I look for whether singular or plural is more common. I
sometimes plug in a single word to find every possible way that word
has been used, singly or in a phrase - time consuming but can be well
spent time. I look for the order of the words in a phrase - for
example, is "piano maintenance" more common than "maintenance for
pianos". Another example - while working on a law firm, I discovered
that people use the term lawyer about 10 times more often than they
use the word attorney.
Once you've got something to work with - you can go ahead with
content, metatags and directories in my opinion. While you're doing
that you can insert Google Analytics code into the site pages (if
technically possible) and Google will provide you with more search
terms that people actually used to find the site. So will most stats
programs that come with the site's hosting. But this tracking takes
time, for fine-tuning the SEO work. I daresay most of my clients would
not pay my fees for three months to just "watch" the site and do
research! But if you've got a serious client who wants you on board
for a while, then using the Analytics (and AdWords if possible) will
certainly help in a process of continual SEO tuning and improvement.
Fiona
It was 'my bad' on confusing Karen about the data sources for WebCEO
and KeywordDiscovery - I thought they used the same dB.
Karen, I wouldn't worry about which source to use! When I am
confronted with a new site, the FIRST thing I look at is the content
of the site, the product/service, the message, and think about their
target audience. Corey's right - brainstorm over some "likely" words
and phrases that the audience would use to find this product or
service.
Assuming I do not yet have enough access to the site, or cannot yet
set up Analytics and let's say PPC has been nixed by the client - they
want the SEO first, up front and now.
Well, what to do? I run my brainstormed and 'gut feeling' words
through WebCEO's keyword tool. This at least gives me a starting
point! I look for words/phrases that are too broad and assume we'll
never make it for them. (But if you tack on NC, Asheville, North
Carolina, etc you've got a fighting chance if it's a geographically-
limited business.) I look for unexpected turns of phrase that people
have used. I look for whether singular or plural is more common. I
sometimes plug in a single word to find every possible way that word
has been used, singly or in a phrase - time consuming but can be well
spent time. I look for the order of the words in a phrase - for
example, is "piano maintenance" more common than "maintenance for
pianos". Another example - while working on a law firm, I discovered
that people use the term lawyer about 10 times more often than they
use the word attorney.
Once you've got something to work with - you can go ahead with
content, metatags and directories in my opinion. While you're doing
that you can insert Google Analytics code into the site pages (if
technically possible) and Google will provide you with more search
terms that people actually used to find the site. So will most stats
programs that come with the site's hosting. But this tracking takes
time, for fine-tuning the SEO work. I daresay most of my clients would
not pay my fees for three months to just "watch" the site and do
research! But if you've got a serious client who wants you on board
for a while, then using the Analytics (and AdWords if possible) will
certainly help in a process of continual SEO tuning and improvement.
Fiona
Karen
Apr 24, 2008, 6:58:56 AM4/24/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
Got it. Thank you, thank you, both!
Corey
Apr 24, 2008, 8:52:08 AM4/24/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
Nice comments.
Fiona: If you use WebCEO for keyword research, do you need to pay a
monthly fee to stay updated?
Fiona: If you use WebCEO for keyword research, do you need to pay a
monthly fee to stay updated?
wes
Apr 24, 2008, 8:19:48 PM4/24/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
Just to clarify - the AdWords method is experimenting with a few
different combinations of keywords/phrases and see which ones have the
best click through rate and conversion rate and then optimize for
those - correct? I think Corey briefly explained this to me one
time.
different combinations of keywords/phrases and see which ones have the
best click through rate and conversion rate and then optimize for
those - correct? I think Corey briefly explained this to me one
time.
Karen
Apr 25, 2008, 6:59:24 AM4/25/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
Wes,
There is actually a free tool you can use. The way you access it (or
at least the way I accessed it, I think), is acting like you are
signing up for an Adwords account (if you don't already have one) and
Google lets you research keywords/phrases, etc. before you set up your
campaigns.
Karen
There is actually a free tool you can use. The way you access it (or
at least the way I accessed it, I think), is acting like you are
signing up for an Adwords account (if you don't already have one) and
Google lets you research keywords/phrases, etc. before you set up your
campaigns.
Karen
glaikit
May 5, 2008, 10:33:15 AM5/5/08
to Hippo Internet Marketing Discussion
Hi Corey,
WebCEO charges an annual fee for regular (pretty much daily) updates
of the database. I can't recall the exact amount but it's about a
couple hundred for the year.
Fiona
WebCEO charges an annual fee for regular (pretty much daily) updates
of the database. I can't recall the exact amount but it's about a
couple hundred for the year.
Fiona
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