dockarl - Right, as always, and it didn't take long for you to be
proved right!  :-()

JLH - It's GREAT to see you back!  While most questions asked since
you said, "bye" would have been a waste of your time, as a simple read
of the FAQs would have been sufficient, there have been a small few
that could have used the understanding you bring to this group that I
have not seen from anyone else!

Webado - Good point!  If CSS turns it "off" but Javascript is required
to turn it "on", that could be a problem although it might not be if
the intent is clear and what is turned off is not spammy.  In any
event though, this was not the case in Sam I Am and daamsie's site.

It still makes me wish thought that more people thought about the
effects of the techniques they use across all possible browser
conditions. I think the bigger problem though is all the "plug-n-pray"
javascript menus and libraries and such that end up being usage
hostile but that people use over and over and over again.  The very
fact that they need to use a library or canned code in the first place
means they likely don't have the ability to judge its effects on their
pages.  :-(

daamsie - Thanks for proving dockarl right.  :-()  I can understand
your desire for reassurance but what would reassure you?  If a Googler
saying something is so isn't enough, what more could be said or done
to satisfy?

That asked, I understand your's and Sam I Am's problem.  You have a
huge site that seems to be "penalized", you have already done a ton of
things trying to get it back to where it was but so far, nothing seems
to be working.

Does that mean that what you have done so far has NOT been the
problem, in which case you should be able to safely undo everything
and try other things or does it mean that maybe some of what you have
done was needed but that you just haven't found that last thing that
is holding your site back?

Back to your question though, "How can Google really assure us that
googlebot is intelligent enough to tell the difference?"

The problem is, only you can answer that because only you know what
assurance you need.

For me personally, my "assurance" is that Google can not only see
every site on the Internet but more so, analyze it all as one piece,
so to speak. With all that data available, you almost don't have to
look for patterns, they virtually pop out and slap you in the face.

Also, it is not all that hard to infer intent even without Google's
vast storage and processing capabilities. How hard is it to look at
something, something hidden for example, and figure out why it is
hidden?  If you see something hidden, like a header or a menu item or
whatever and it looks spammy as hell, that is not so hard to discern.
But, if what is hidden fits in with the rest of the page, and possibly
the rest of the site, it is a natural element within the architecture
of the site and the intent for hiding whatever it is wouldn't be
malicious as there would be no benefit in doing so.

I do understand though, in the situation you are in, you essentially
have to second and third guess everything because so far, nothing you
have heard has gotten your site back to where it was previously. I
wish there was a "magic bullet" I could suggest but I've run out of
ideas.

But at the same time, there comes a point where you have to decide
what can and can't be where problems may be because otherwise, you end
up with a blank page with nothing on it which would then itself become
a reason for a site not doing too terribly well either.

Your and Sam I Am's situation is one of the VERY few situations where
I wish Google would give a direct answer as to why a site has tanked.
Both of you have tried EVERYTHING suggested, no matter how much you or
anyone else disagreed but nothing has gotten you anywhere.

We can only hope.

Craig