In our "Popular Picks" thread, Burchman asked for some clarification on what Google considers to be hidden text, as our Webmaster Guidelines explicitly state that you should avoid hidden text or hidden links. We have a few examples of how text can be hidden in this Help Center article: http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353
As I've noticed other users with similar questions in this group, such as "What if my navigation menu uses display:none to hide text until a button is rolled over?" I figured this would be a good topic to cover in "Popular Picks." The reason we perceive hidden text as a problem is that it serves content to search engines which users don't see, and presenting different content to search engines and users makes it more difficult to properly rank pages. If we detect that this text is intended to deceive search engines, there could be a negative effect on how your site is indexed and ranked in Google, including removal from our index.
Because such strong action may be taken on sites violating this guideline, it's understandable that many webmasters have expressed concerns about the possibility of Google incorrectly detecting legitimate content as hidden text. When trying to figure out if a page may have hidden text that Google would consider malicious, start by thinking about why the guideline was written in the first place: Google wants to see what the user sees. If the text that Google sees is the same that a normal user is supposed to see, then you should be good to go. If Google is seeing text that is intentionally hidden from the user in an effort to manipulate search engine rankings, you have some work to do.
In the top-left corner, you'll see a line of text: "Web Images Video News Maps Gmail more."
Google sees this text, and so do you, the user. So far, so good.
Next, let's make sure nobody wrote "search engine search find crawl index rank" in white text on the white background, with the intention of ranking for those terms. Google would see that, but a normal user wouldn't. Take off your "normal user" hat for a second and do a "Select All" on the page (by hitting CTRL-A on a PC, or COMMAND-A on a Mac, for instance). This will make any white on white text appear. As you can see, no hidden text.
But let's try one more thing: Render the page again without CSS enabled. The Web Developer extension for Firefox lets you do this pretty easily. Without CSS, you'll see several words we didn't see before: "Blog Search Blogger Books Calendar Documents Finance Groups Labs Orkut Patents Photos Products Reader Scholar."
You may have also noticed that these words appear in Google's text- only cache of itself, which is a good indication of how Google "sees" a site. But before you blog about your discovery of hidden links on a PR 10 site =), take a look at the page again with CSS enabled. This time, click on the "more" link, and voilą, the no-longer-hidden text appears. This text is part of the page's functionality, and it is meant for the user to read and use, not just for search engines to index. This text adds value for the user, which Google rewards, so Google would not hurt this site's ranking or remove it from the index for that reason. Many sites use similar methods for navigational menus and other functional elements, so please rest assured that the existence of display:none on your site is not on its own a one-way ticket out of Google's index.
When thinking about your own site, ask yourself if all of the text is there for the user. If the answer is "yes," great job! If the answer is "no," do your best to change it to a "yes," and call on your webmaster community (this group!) for advice if you need it. CSS menus and white space without hidden text should not be a cause of concern when it comes to Google indexing and ranking; the only thing you should be concerned about is how they affect your visitors.
In the "Popular Picks" thread we asked for non-site specific questions, but now that this has been separated into its own thread, here's your chance to ask about a site you are still unsure about. Please also let me know if you would like further clarification on particular aspects this topic.
This is a great post and will certainly serve for a reference for a lot of newbies for years to come! Kind of justification too since I once got 'flamed' by some users for having 'hidden' text based on having a display:none for an advanced search form which was/is visible when clicking on an 'advanced search form' link :) It's one of my main pet peeves with people that simply use a free tool that is online to do a check without actually placing their findings in context by having a look at the site. But that's off topic, so just wanted to say thanks.
> In our "Popular Picks" thread, Burchman asked for some clarification > on what Google considers to be hidden text, as our Webmaster > Guidelines explicitly state that you should avoid hidden text or > hidden links. We have a few examples of how text can be hidden in this > Help Center article:http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353
> As I've noticed other users with similar questions in this group, such > as "What if my navigation menu uses display:none to hide text until a > button is rolled over?" I figured this would be a good topic to cover > in "Popular Picks." The reason we perceive hidden text as a problem is > that it serves content to search engines which users don't see, and > presenting different content to search engines and users makes it more > difficult to properly rank pages. If we detect that this text is > intended to deceive search engines, there could be a negative effect > on how your site is indexed and ranked in Google, including removal > from our index.
> Because such strong action may be taken on sites violating this > guideline, it's understandable that many webmasters have expressed > concerns about the possibility of Google incorrectly detecting > legitimate content as hidden text. When trying to figure out if a page > may have hidden text that Google would consider malicious, start by > thinking about why the guideline was written in the first place: > Google wants to see what the user sees. If the text that Google sees > is the same that a normal user is supposed to see, then you should be > good to go. If Google is seeing text that is intentionally hidden from > the user in an effort to manipulate search engine rankings, you have > some work to do.
> In the top-left corner, you'll see a line of text: > "Web Images Video News Maps Gmail more."
> Google sees this text, and so do you, the user. So far, so good.
> Next, let's make sure nobody wrote "search engine search find crawl > index rank" in white text on the white background, with the intention > of ranking for those terms. Google would see that, but a normal user > wouldn't. Take off your "normal user" hat for a second and do a > "Select All" on the page (by hitting CTRL-A on a PC, or COMMAND-A on a > Mac, for instance). This will make any white on white text appear. As > you can see, no hidden text.
> But let's try one more thing: Render the page again without CSS > enabled. The Web Developer extension for Firefox lets you do this > pretty easily. Without CSS, you'll see several words we didn't see > before: > "Blog Search Blogger Books Calendar Documents Finance Groups Labs > Orkut Patents Photos Products Reader Scholar."
> You may have also noticed that these words appear in Google's text- > only cache of itself, which is a good indication of how Google "sees" > a site. But before you blog about your discovery of hidden links on a > PR 10 site =), take a look at the page again with CSS enabled. This > time, click on the "more" link, and voilą, the no-longer-hidden text > appears. This text is part of the page's functionality, and it is > meant for the user to read and use, not just for search engines to > index. This text adds value for the user, which Google rewards, so > Google would not hurt this site's ranking or remove it from the index > for that reason. Many sites use similar methods for navigational menus > and other functional elements, so please rest assured that the > existence of display:none on your site is not on its own a one-way > ticket out of Google's index.
> When thinking about your own site, ask yourself if all of the text is > there for the user. If the answer is "yes," great job! If the answer > is "no," do your best to change it to a "yes," and call on your > webmaster community (this group!) for advice if you need it. CSS menus > and white space without hidden text should not be a cause of concern > when it comes to Google indexing and ranking; the only thing you > should be concerned about is how they affect your visitors.
> In the "Popular Picks" thread we asked for non-site specific > questions, but now that this has been separated into its own thread, > here's your chance to ask about a site you are still unsure about. > Please also let me know if you would like further clarification on > particular aspects this topic.
Thanks Wysz for taking the effort to write such an informative post.
I guess inevitably people are going to ask the question 'but - how does google KNOW that I'm using display:none in a non malicous way - so why should I take the risk when I can't be sure whether I've been pinged for it?' :D
> In our "Popular Picks" thread, Burchman asked for some clarification > on what Google considers to be hidden text, as our Webmaster > Guidelines explicitly state that you should avoid hidden text or > hidden links. We have a few examples of how text can be hidden in this > Help Center article:http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353
> As I've noticed other users with similar questions in this group, such > as "What if my navigation menu uses display:none to hide text until a > button is rolled over?" I figured this would be a good topic to cover > in "Popular Picks." The reason we perceive hidden text as a problem is > that it serves content to search engines which users don't see, and > presenting different content to search engines and users makes it more > difficult to properly rank pages. If we detect that this text is > intended to deceive search engines, there could be a negative effect > on how your site is indexed and ranked in Google, including removal > from our index.
> Because such strong action may be taken on sites violating this > guideline, it's understandable that many webmasters have expressed > concerns about the possibility of Google incorrectly detecting > legitimate content as hidden text. When trying to figure out if a page > may have hidden text that Google would consider malicious, start by > thinking about why the guideline was written in the first place: > Google wants to see what the user sees. If the text that Google sees > is the same that a normal user is supposed to see, then you should be > good to go. If Google is seeing text that is intentionally hidden from > the user in an effort to manipulate search engine rankings, you have > some work to do.
> In the top-left corner, you'll see a line of text: > "Web Images Video News Maps Gmail more."
> Google sees this text, and so do you, the user. So far, so good.
> Next, let's make sure nobody wrote "search engine search find crawl > index rank" in white text on the white background, with the intention > of ranking for those terms. Google would see that, but a normal user > wouldn't. Take off your "normal user" hat for a second and do a > "Select All" on the page (by hitting CTRL-A on a PC, or COMMAND-A on a > Mac, for instance). This will make any white on white text appear. As > you can see, no hidden text.
> But let's try one more thing: Render the page again without CSS > enabled. The Web Developer extension for Firefox lets you do this > pretty easily. Without CSS, you'll see several words we didn't see > before: > "Blog Search Blogger Books Calendar Documents Finance Groups Labs > Orkut Patents Photos Products Reader Scholar."
> You may have also noticed that these words appear in Google's text- > only cache of itself, which is a good indication of how Google "sees" > a site. But before you blog about your discovery of hidden links on a > PR 10 site =), take a look at the page again with CSS enabled. This > time, click on the "more" link, and voilą, the no-longer-hidden text > appears. This text is part of the page's functionality, and it is > meant for the user to read and use, not just for search engines to > index. This text adds value for the user, which Google rewards, so > Google would not hurt this site's ranking or remove it from the index > for that reason. Many sites use similar methods for navigational menus > and other functional elements, so please rest assured that the > existence of display:none on your site is not on its own a one-way > ticket out of Google's index.
> When thinking about your own site, ask yourself if all of the text is > there for the user. If the answer is "yes," great job! If the answer > is "no," do your best to change it to a "yes," and call on your > webmaster community (this group!) for advice if you need it. CSS menus > and white space without hidden text should not be a cause of concern > when it comes to Google indexing and ranking; the only thing you > should be concerned about is how they affect your visitors.
> In the "Popular Picks" thread we asked for non-site specific > questions, but now that this has been separated into its own thread, > here's your chance to ask about a site you are still unsure about. > Please also let me know if you would like further clarification on > particular aspects this topic.
Wysz, thank you very much for this post. It's extremely helpful and the addition of a real world example brings the point home for everyone to understand. I also appreciate your request for further questions if need be. It's a question that's been asked hundreds of times here before, and for the hundreds of times it's asked again in the future people can point in the right direction. Thanks again!
> In our "Popular Picks" thread, Burchman asked for some clarification > on what Google considers to be hidden text, as our Webmaster > Guidelines explicitly state that you should avoid hidden text or > hidden links. We have a few examples of how text can be hidden in this > Help Center article:http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353
> As I've noticed other users with similar questions in this group, such > as "What if my navigation menu uses display:none to hide text until a > button is rolled over?" I figured this would be a good topic to cover > in "Popular Picks." The reason we perceive hidden text as a problem is > that it serves content to search engines which users don't see, and > presenting different content to search engines and users makes it more > difficult to properly rank pages. If we detect that this text is > intended to deceive search engines, there could be a negative effect > on how your site is indexed and ranked in Google, including removal > from our index.
> Because such strong action may be taken on sites violating this > guideline, it's understandable that many webmasters have expressed > concerns about the possibility of Google incorrectly detecting > legitimate content as hidden text. When trying to figure out if a page > may have hidden text that Google would consider malicious, start by > thinking about why the guideline was written in the first place: > Google wants to see what the user sees. If the text that Google sees > is the same that a normal user is supposed to see, then you should be > good to go. If Google is seeing text that is intentionally hidden from > the user in an effort to manipulate search engine rankings, you have > some work to do.
> In the top-left corner, you'll see a line of text: > "Web Images Video News Maps Gmail more."
> Google sees this text, and so do you, the user. So far, so good.
> Next, let's make sure nobody wrote "search engine search find crawl > index rank" in white text on the white background, with the intention > of ranking for those terms. Google would see that, but a normal user > wouldn't. Take off your "normal user" hat for a second and do a > "Select All" on the page (by hitting CTRL-A on a PC, or COMMAND-A on a > Mac, for instance). This will make any white on white text appear. As > you can see, no hidden text.
> But let's try one more thing: Render the page again without CSS > enabled. The Web Developer extension for Firefox lets you do this > pretty easily. Without CSS, you'll see several words we didn't see > before: > "Blog Search Blogger Books Calendar Documents Finance Groups Labs > Orkut Patents Photos Products Reader Scholar."
> You may have also noticed that these words appear in Google's text- > only cache of itself, which is a good indication of how Google "sees" > a site. But before you blog about your discovery of hidden links on a > PR 10 site =), take a look at the page again with CSS enabled. This > time, click on the "more" link, and voilą, the no-longer-hidden text > appears. This text is part of the page's functionality, and it is > meant for the user to read and use, not just for search engines to > index. This text adds value for the user, which Google rewards, so > Google would not hurt this site's ranking or remove it from the index > for that reason. Many sites use similar methods for navigational menus > and other functional elements, so please rest assured that the > existence of display:none on your site is not on its own a one-way > ticket out of Google's index.
> When thinking about your own site, ask yourself if all of the text is > there for the user. If the answer is "yes," great job! If the answer > is "no," do your best to change it to a "yes," and call on your > webmaster community (this group!) for advice if you need it. CSS menus > and white space without hidden text should not be a cause of concern > when it comes to Google indexing and ranking; the only thing you > should be concerned about is how they affect your visitors.
> In the "Popular Picks" thread we asked for non-site specific > questions, but now that this has been separated into its own thread, > here's your chance to ask about a site you are still unsure about. > Please also let me know if you would like further clarification on > particular aspects this topic.
I suppose you are referring to what I might have said as having "flamed" you. Yes, it could well have been me complaining about such a menu.
Go back again to google.com. Click more - you get a drop down menu which was previously hidden from view. Now turn off javascript. Click that More button - yep you go to a page with other links. So whether you have javascript disabled or enabled you can still navigate it OK.
Now go check your own page (which I don't recall now). If you have a css menu with css hidden section, will you be able to navigate further with javascript off or does your css hidden menu depend on javascript to unhide it?
> This is a great post and will certainly serve for a reference for a > lot of newbies for years to come! Kind of justification too since I > once got 'flamed' by some users for having 'hidden' text based on > having a display:none for an advanced search form which was/is visible > when clicking on an 'advanced search form' link :) It's one of my main > pet peeves with people that simply use a free tool that is online to > do a check without actually placing their findings in context by > having a look at the site. But that's off topic, so just wanted to say > thanks.
> On Oct 5, 11:40 pm, Wysz wrote:
> > In our "Popular Picks" thread, Burchman asked for some clarification > > on what Google considers to be hidden text, as our Webmaster > > Guidelines explicitly state that you should avoid hidden text or > > hidden links. We have a few examples of how text can be hidden in this > > Help Center article:http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353
> > As I've noticed other users with similar questions in this group, such > > as "What if my navigation menu uses display:none to hide text until a > > button is rolled over?" I figured this would be a good topic to cover > > in "Popular Picks." The reason we perceive hidden text as a problem is > > that it serves content to search engines which users don't see, and > > presenting different content to search engines and users makes it more > > difficult to properly rank pages. If we detect that this text is > > intended to deceive search engines, there could be a negative effect > > on how your site is indexed and ranked in Google, including removal > > from our index.
> > Because such strong action may be taken on sites violating this > > guideline, it's understandable that many webmasters have expressed > > concerns about the possibility of Google incorrectly detecting > > legitimate content as hidden text. When trying to figure out if a page > > may have hidden text that Google would consider malicious, start by > > thinking about why the guideline was written in the first place: > > Google wants to see what the user sees. If the text that Google sees > > is the same that a normal user is supposed to see, then you should be > > good to go. If Google is seeing text that is intentionally hidden from > > the user in an effort to manipulate search engine rankings, you have > > some work to do.
> > In the top-left corner, you'll see a line of text: > > "Web Images Video News Maps Gmail more."
> > Google sees this text, and so do you, the user. So far, so good.
> > Next, let's make sure nobody wrote "search engine search find crawl > > index rank" in white text on the white background, with the intention > > of ranking for those terms. Google would see that, but a normal user > > wouldn't. Take off your "normal user" hat for a second and do a > > "Select All" on the page (by hitting CTRL-A on a PC, or COMMAND-A on a > > Mac, for instance). This will make any white on white text appear. As > > you can see, no hidden text.
> > But let's try one more thing: Render the page again without CSS > > enabled. The Web Developer extension for Firefox lets you do this > > pretty easily. Without CSS, you'll see several words we didn't see > > before: > > "Blog Search Blogger Books Calendar Documents Finance Groups Labs > > Orkut Patents Photos Products Reader Scholar."
> > You may have also noticed that these words appear in Google's text- > > only cache of itself, which is a good indication of how Google "sees" > > a site. But before you blog about your discovery of hidden links on a > > PR 10 site =), take a look at the page again with CSS enabled. This > > time, click on the "more" link, and voilą, the no-longer-hidden text > > appears. This text is part of the page's functionality, and it is > > meant for the user to read and use, not just for search engines to > > index. This text adds value for the user, which Google rewards, so > > Google would not hurt this site's ranking or remove it from the index > > for that reason. Many sites use similar methods for navigational menus > > and other functional elements, so please rest assured that the > > existence of display:none on your site is not on its own a one-way > > ticket out of Google's index.
> > When thinking about your own site, ask yourself if all of the text is > > there for the user. If the answer is "yes," great job! If the answer > > is "no," do your best to change it to a "yes," and call on your > > webmaster community (this group!) for advice if you need it. CSS menus > > and white space without hidden text should not be a cause of concern > > when it comes to Google indexing and ranking; the only thing you > > should be concerned about is how they affect your visitors.
> > In the "Popular Picks" thread we asked for non-site specific > > questions, but now that this has been separated into its own thread, > > here's your chance to ask about a site you are still unsure about. > > Please also let me know if you would like further clarification on > > particular aspects this topic.
> Now go check your own page (which I don't recall now). If you have a > css menu with css hidden section, will you be able to navigate further > with javascript off or does your css hidden menu depend on javascript to unhide it?
No, it didn't depend on JS in any way .. It was a simple CSS image replacement, with clearly no other intention than to be able to use a nicer font for the navigation. That said, we've since removed it out of paranoia. And it doesn't hurt bandwidth to use a plain text menu anyway. The current implementation can be seen on http://www.travellerspoint.com . I think you'll agree it is about as safe as can be.. and yet we still find ourselves ranking in last spot where we once were king. The other place it was used was as an "advanced search area" as part of a search form.. and all it hid there was a select box with a list of countries to help narrow down results. Perhaps that was suspicious? We removed it from the front page as well, though it can still be seen on some of our deeper search forms like this one: http://www.travellerspoint.com/search.cfm?area=users . Perhaps that is enough reason to penalize a site with hundreds of thousands of useful & unique pages?
Back to the original response.. The answer is great (it's ALWAYS good to get official comments), but for me doesn't really help the situation at all. I'm left wondering after this comment:
> If Google is seeing text that is intentionally hidden from the user in an effort to manipulate search engine rankings, you have some work to do.
How can Google really assure us that googlebot is intelligent enough to tell the difference?
Without giving us some sort of reassurance on how you *fairly* come to the decision that sites are "trying to manipulate" you, I'm afraid serious webmasters are still left with little choice but to play it safe and not ever use display:none.
> I suppose you are referring to what I might have said as having > "flamed" you. Yes, it could well have been me complaining about such a > menu.
> Go back again to google.com. Click more - you get a drop down menu > which was previously hidden from view. Now turn off javascript. Click > that More button - yep you go to a page with other links. So whether > you have javascript disabled or enabled you can still navigate it OK.
> Now go check your own page (which I don't recall now). If you have a > css menu with css hidden section, will you be able to navigate further > with javascript off or does your css hidden menu depend on javascript > to unhide it?
> That is the whole bone of contention IMO.
> On Oct 5, 5:57 pm, Sam I Am wrote:
> > This is a great post and will certainly serve for a reference for a > > lot of newbies for years to come! Kind of justification too since I > > once got 'flamed' by some users for having 'hidden' text based on > > having a display:none for an advanced search form which was/is visible > > when clicking on an 'advanced search form' link :) It's one of my main > > pet peeves with people that simply use a free tool that is online to > > do a check without actually placing their findings in context by > > having a look at the site. But that's off topic, so just wanted to say > > thanks.
> > On Oct 5, 11:40 pm, Wysz wrote:
> > > In our "Popular Picks" thread, Burchman asked for some clarification > > > on what Google considers to be hidden text, as our Webmaster > > > Guidelines explicitly state that you should avoid hidden text or > > > hidden links. We have a few examples of how text can be hidden in this > > > Help Center article:http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353
> > > As I've noticed other users with similar questions in this group, such > > > as "What if my navigation menu uses display:none to hide text until a > > > button is rolled over?" I figured this would be a good topic to cover > > > in "Popular Picks." The reason we perceive hidden text as a problem is > > > that it serves content to search engines which users don't see, and > > > presenting different content to search engines and users makes it more > > > difficult to properly rank pages. If we detect that this text is > > > intended to deceive search engines, there could be a negative effect > > > on how your site is indexed and ranked in Google, including removal > > > from our index.
> > > Because such strong action may be taken on sites violating this > > > guideline, it's understandable that many webmasters have expressed > > > concerns about the possibility of Google incorrectly detecting > > > legitimate content as hidden text. When trying to figure out if a page > > > may have hidden text that Google would consider malicious, start by > > > thinking about why the guideline was written in the first place: > > > Google wants to see what the user sees. If the text that Google sees > > > is the same that a normal user is supposed to see, then you should be > > > good to go. If Google is seeing text that is intentionally hidden from > > > the user in an effort to manipulate search engine rankings, you have > > > some work to do.
> > > Let's try this approach with a page you may have seen before:http://www.google.com/
> > > In the top-left corner, you'll see a line of text: > > > "Web Images Video News Maps Gmail more."
> > > Google sees this text, and so do you, the user. So far, so good.
> > > Next, let's make sure nobody wrote "search engine search find crawl > > > index rank" in white text on the white background, with the intention > > > of ranking for those terms. Google would see that, but a normal user > > > wouldn't. Take off your "normal user" hat for a second and do a > > > "Select All" on the page (by hitting CTRL-A on a PC, or COMMAND-A on a > > > Mac, for instance). This will make any white on white text appear. As > > > you can see, no hidden text.
> > > But let's try one more thing: Render the page again without CSS > > > enabled. The Web Developer extension for Firefox lets you do this > > > pretty easily. Without CSS, you'll see several words we didn't see > > > before: > > > "Blog Search Blogger Books Calendar Documents Finance Groups Labs > > > Orkut Patents Photos Products Reader Scholar."
> > > You may have also noticed that these words appear in Google's text- > > > only cache of itself, which is a good indication of how Google "sees" > > > a site. But before you blog about your discovery of hidden links on a > > > PR 10 site =), take a look at the page again with CSS enabled. This > > > time, click on the "more" link, and voilą, the no-longer-hidden text > > > appears. This text is part of the page's functionality, and it is > > > meant for the user to read and use, not just for search engines to > > > index. This text adds value for the user, which Google rewards, so > > > Google would not hurt this site's ranking or remove it from the index > > > for that reason. Many sites use similar methods for navigational menus > > > and other functional elements, so please rest assured that the > > > existence of display:none on your site is not on its own a one-way > > > ticket out of Google's index.
> > > When thinking about your own site, ask yourself if all of the text is > > > there for the user. If the answer is "yes," great job! If the answer > > > is "no," do your best to change it to a "yes," and call on your > > > webmaster community (this group!) for advice if you need it. CSS menus > > > and white space without hidden text should not be a cause of concern > > > when it comes to Google indexing and ranking; the only thing you > > > should be concerned about is how they affect your visitors.
> > > In the "Popular Picks" thread we asked for non-site specific > > > questions, but now that this has been separated into its own thread, > > > here's your chance to ask about a site you are still unsure about. > > > Please also let me know if you would like further clarification on > > > particular aspects this topic.
Sam I AM - I'm with you 1,000%! The right tool in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing indeed!
dockarl - Right, as always, and it didn't take long for you to be proved right! :-()
JLH - It's GREAT to see you back! While most questions asked since you said, "bye" would have been a waste of your time, as a simple read of the FAQs would have been sufficient, there have been a small few that could have used the understanding you bring to this group that I have not seen from anyone else!
Webado - Good point! If CSS turns it "off" but Javascript is required to turn it "on", that could be a problem although it might not be if the intent is clear and what is turned off is not spammy. In any event though, this was not the case in Sam I Am and daamsie's site.
It still makes me wish thought that more people thought about the effects of the techniques they use across all possible browser conditions. I think the bigger problem though is all the "plug-n-pray" javascript menus and libraries and such that end up being usage hostile but that people use over and over and over again. The very fact that they need to use a library or canned code in the first place means they likely don't have the ability to judge its effects on their pages. :-(
daamsie - Thanks for proving dockarl right. :-() I can understand your desire for reassurance but what would reassure you? If a Googler saying something is so isn't enough, what more could be said or done to satisfy?
That asked, I understand your's and Sam I Am's problem. You have a huge site that seems to be "penalized", you have already done a ton of things trying to get it back to where it was but so far, nothing seems to be working.
Does that mean that what you have done so far has NOT been the problem, in which case you should be able to safely undo everything and try other things or does it mean that maybe some of what you have done was needed but that you just haven't found that last thing that is holding your site back?
Back to your question though, "How can Google really assure us that googlebot is intelligent enough to tell the difference?"
The problem is, only you can answer that because only you know what assurance you need.
For me personally, my "assurance" is that Google can not only see every site on the Internet but more so, analyze it all as one piece, so to speak. With all that data available, you almost don't have to look for patterns, they virtually pop out and slap you in the face.
Also, it is not all that hard to infer intent even without Google's vast storage and processing capabilities. How hard is it to look at something, something hidden for example, and figure out why it is hidden? If you see something hidden, like a header or a menu item or whatever and it looks spammy as hell, that is not so hard to discern. But, if what is hidden fits in with the rest of the page, and possibly the rest of the site, it is a natural element within the architecture of the site and the intent for hiding whatever it is wouldn't be malicious as there would be no benefit in doing so.
I do understand though, in the situation you are in, you essentially have to second and third guess everything because so far, nothing you have heard has gotten your site back to where it was previously. I wish there was a "magic bullet" I could suggest but I've run out of ideas.
But at the same time, there comes a point where you have to decide what can and can't be where problems may be because otherwise, you end up with a blank page with nothing on it which would then itself become a reason for a site not doing too terribly well either.
Your and Sam I Am's situation is one of the VERY few situations where I wish Google would give a direct answer as to why a site has tanked. Both of you have tried EVERYTHING suggested, no matter how much you or anyone else disagreed but nothing has gotten you anywhere.
