I don't suppose there is any chance google can negotiate with OS ot a
compromise position ?

Oh well - it was nice while it lasted !

D06553 v1.1 Oct 2008
Page 1 of 2
Use of Google® Maps for display and
promotion purposes
1 Introduction
A number of our customers have expressed interest in using Google Maps
as their preferred
backdrop to their business information on public-facing websites.
This brief question and answer (Q&A) paper should help answer certain
questions you may have
around the use of Google Maps for displaying your business
information.
2 Frequently asked questions
Q) Can my authority display data we have captured or created
ourselves, without using
Ordnance Survey data as a base, on top of a Google Maps backdrop?
A) Since Ordnance Survey has no intellectual property (IP) interest in
data that you have created
without using our data as a base, naturally you can use Google in this
way.
Q) I want to pass information I have captured, which has been derived
from Ordnance
Survey data, onto Google for Google to display on Google Maps. Can I
do this?
A) Any use of Ordnance Survey data, or data derived from Ordnance
Survey data, should be in
accordance with the terms of your licence. You are only able to
provide such data to a third
party in limited circumstances, for example, to your contractor
undertaking authority business
on your behalf, and only provided that such contractor enters into a
Contractor’s Licence. (You
should note that we believe the terms of the Contractor’s Licence are
wholly inconsistent with
what we understand to be Google’s standard terms and conditions.)
Therefore, you cannot pass such information to Google for display on
Google Maps, and we
must remind you that provision of data to Google in this way would be
in breach of Crown
copyright.
Q) I want to pull Google Maps onto my system and host my Ordnance
Survey derived
business information on top, so that no data will pass to Google. Can
I use this solution
instead?
A) No. Although you will not be passing any data directly to Google,
by displaying such data on
top of Google Maps in this way and making such mapping available to
the public, it appears
that you will be granting Google a licence to use such data. This is
the case despite the fact
that you will be hosting the data on your system. Google’s terms and
conditions appear to
provide that any display of data on or through the Google services
grants Google a perpetual,
irrevocable, worldwide, royalty-free licence to reproduce, adapt,
modify, translate, publish,
publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such data.
D06553 Oct 2008
Page 2 of 2
The terms of your licence do not permit you to license Ordnance Survey
data to a third party in
these circumstances.
NOTE: The answer to this question is based on our understanding of
which of Google’s
standard terms and conditions we believe would apply.
In the event that Google is prepared to offer you terms and conditions
which do not involve
you purporting to grant Google a licence of Ordnance Survey base or
derived data, we would
have no objection to your hosting such data on top of Google Maps in
this scenario.)
Q) What constitutes data ‘derived’ from Ordnance Survey data?
A) Simply put, Ordnance Survey derived data is any data created using
Ordnance Survey base
data. For example, if you capture a polygon or a point or any other
feature using any
Ordnance Survey data, either in its data form or as a background
context to the
polygon/point/other feature capture, this would constitute derived
data.
It should also be borne in mind that data from other suppliers may be
based on Ordnance
Survey material, and thus the above considerations may still apply. We
therefore recommend
that you verify whether any third-party mapping you use may have been
created in some way
from Ordnance Survey data before displaying it on Google Maps.
NOTE: Again, the answer to this question is based on our understanding
of which of Google’s
standard terms and conditions we believe would apply. In the event
that Google is prepared to
offer you terms and conditions which do not involve you purporting to
grant Google a licence of
Ordnance Survey base or derived data, we would have no objection to
your hosting such data
on top of Google Maps in this scenario.
If you have any other questions or require further information, please
contact the
Mapping Services Agreement helpdesk on 023 8079 2706 or email them at
m...@ordnancesurvey.co.uk
3 Control information
3.1 Responsibility for this document
Richard Mortara, Local Government and Emergency Services Contracts
Manager is responsible
for the content of this document.
3.2 Approved for issue
John Kimmance, Head of Sales: Public Sector and Utilities
3.3 Validity period
This document is valid until further notice
3.4 Trademarks
Ordnance Survey and the OS Symbol are registered trademarks of
Ordnance Survey, the national
mapping agency of Great Britain.
Google is a registered trademark of Google, Inc

I have seen similar statements from organizations in Italy, but I
can't find the links just now.

I am not a lawyer, so I cannot tell if the above is correct.

--
Marcelo - http://maps.forum.nu
--

Mapperz
http://mapperz.blogspot.com/

On Nov 10, 10:36 pm, fred <fred_qwe...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

We had this from OS as well.

OS said this also applies to other mapping APIs from the likes of
Yahoo & Microsoft, and seeing as the API from OS is only for private
use, there is no alternative that can be used.

Can't even use the Openspace API from OS themselves, from the OS
Openspace FAQs http://openspace.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/openspace/faq.html
"OS OpenSpace is for non-commercial use only. You cannot therefore
develop an application for any organisation. This includes those
operating in the public sector - many of which already make use of
Ordnance Survey data under alternative licensing arrangements."

And after a GIS meeting with the other local authorities in this area,
the only conclusion was to remove all Google Maps from our websites.
Not sure if anyone from OS was there (I didn't attend) but if not they
had more information available at the meeting.

OS are not moving on this, so the only way to resolve this is for
Google to change their terms, but then I guess Google won't be willing
to do that just to please OS.

Even if you look at a paper OS map to find the location, then used
Google maps to get the lat lng this is classed as derived data.
So as far as we can see the only way to produce data to put on Google
maps without it at somepoint being derived from OS data is to use GPS
data, but you can't take a map with you to find where you're going!

Anyways, how about using the Multimaps API?  That is licenced to
display OS maps, so if you displayed so-called OS derived data on an
OS basemap....
Would need a careful read of MM TOU

cheers, Ross K

because of this bit:.... "any Content which you submit, post or
display on or through, the Services." [1]

There are however (at least) two issues with this, Google might not
even have a record of all points/data displayed via client side
javascript, and the person using the Google Service may not even be
able to grant such a licence.*

* Say I use Google Maps to visualise a nice KML I found on the web,
but its copyrighted - I have no licence to be able to grant Google the
above licence.

This is irrespective if the OS does really have some IP in data
plotted using maps, there are cases when the data is unequivocally the
content creators (including the OS) which would be affected by the
above paragraph in the Google TOS [1]

Of course I am not a Lawyer, and would love to have the wrong end of the stick!

[1] Section 11 of http://www.google.com/intl/en/privacy_terms.html

- www.nearby.org.uk - www.geograph.org.uk -

The Universal TOS say: "9.4 Other than the limited license set forth
in Section 11, Google acknowledges and agrees that it obtains no
right, title or interest from you (or your licensors) under these
Terms in or to any Content that you submit, post, transmit or display
on, or through, the Services, including any intellectual property
rights which subsist in that Content "

Presumably that would satisfy Ordnance Survey.

Section 11 is what is exercising OS: "11.1 You retain copyright and
any other rights you already hold in Content which you submit, post or
display on or through, the Services. By submitting, posting or
displaying the content you give Google a perpetual, irrevocable,
worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive licence to reproduce,
adapt, modify, translate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display
and distribute any Content which you submit, post or display on or
through, the Services. This licence is for the sole purpose of
enabling Google to display, distribute and promote the Services and
may be revoked for certain Services as defined in the Additional Terms
of those Services."

The licence in Section 11 is a (rather wide!) licence but limited to a
single purpose. The issue is how provision of data through the API
enables Google to display, distribute or promote the **Services** as
opposed to the **data** (which is called "Content"). I would say that
it doesn't, and therefore Section 11 doesn't apply to user-supplied
Content.

So OS have misinterpreted Google's TOS and the Terms of Service may
not need altering at all. But it would be fairly easy for this to be
made explicit in the the API Terms of Use. They simply need to be
amended so that they specifically exclude Content which is not passed
through Google's servers to become part of the Service. That could be
easily done by simply omitting references to "display on or through
the Service", retaining "submit or post" references as that is what
happens with GGeoXml.

There is a precedent for this with the Chrome Terms of Service.

One for Pamela to pass to the legal eagles.

Andrew

Wayback in 2001...
The AA (Automobile Association) got fined. £20m ($29.4m)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1203480.stm

Hope Google is not next.

So Open Street Map it is then.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/

Mapperz
http://mapperz.blogspot.com/

On Nov 11, 10:59 am, "warden [Andrew Leach - Maps API Guru]"

Regardless of whether OS have misinterpreted them or not - it would be
useful if google could be more explicit in their TOS.  They changed
these for Chrome quickly enough when there were lots of complaints.
Again I don't think google really mean to claim rights to all this
data, I suspect its more of an oversight in the way the various TOS
interact - but if this is the case it shouldn't be too much of an
issue for them to clarify the position.  As Barry says - in many
situations they don't actually have the data to re-use anyway..

What just may be useful (if google do adjust the TOC) is that OS ahve
now stated definitively:

"In the event that Google is prepared to offer you terms and
conditions which do not involve
you purporting to grant Google a licence of Ordnance Survey base or
derived data, we would
have no objection to your hosting such data on top of Google Maps in
this scenario.)"

So if those conditions can be met by a slight wording change from
google - OS will have a job backtracking from it.

Here's hoping - come on google - please do what you can to get this
sorted quickly - there is no way a local authority or any other
official body will risk using google maps while the current position
stands.

On Nov 11, 10:59 am, "warden [Andrew Leach - Maps API Guru]"

We almost mananged to persuade Sustrans that their OS-derived route
data could be plotted on our Google Maps too, as a benefit to all UK
cyclists, but they've since gone quiet. The Sustrans site is still
stuck with very poor non-slippy mapping of their routes, which is a
great pity.

The whole situation is silly: there must be thousands of people using
Tracklogs, Memory Map, etc. to design and share routes based on OS
mapping without the required OS licences to do so. Technically
speaking, if you determine even just the grid reference of a point
from an OS map, you must include a copyright statement if you tell
anyone else that grid reference, as it's derived data and hence
subject to Crown Copyright.

Hopefully the government's Show Us A Better Way competition, which has
several map-based winners, will help to remove the over-restrictive
licence requirements for derived data. I can understand the OS wanting
to keep control over their extremely-nice maps, but it would be nice
to be able to take points or routes from them without being trapped by
the derived data rules.

We'd have to try to determine which ones came from OS mapping, which
might be difficult to do for some of them: they might have been traced
from OS maps in Tracklogs, then exported as GPX, perhaps edited a bit,
before being uploaded to the routes site.

How on earth do the OS think they can police this?  Tracings made from
their mapping in Tracklogs is done manually, as there's no snap-to-
road feature. So once that data has been exported and translated into
different formats it must be almost impossible to prove that it
derived from OS data.

And the OS support person said that route data obtained via Google
from TeleAtlas certainly didn't need an OS license, although that too
is obviously originally derived from OS data.

Help!

Its possible if you were displaying the data on other OS maps that you
might be all right displaying the data on a website as you describe.

But there latest note is unequivocal - you are not allowed to use OS
or derived data on a google maps api - unless you have negotiated
special terms with google that does not give them any implied rights.
Sorry !

Like you - I hope that this is swiftly resolved - the OS are
definitely overly protectionist in this whole area - I appreciate they
need to earn revenue to maintain the extremely good map base we have
in this country, but they take it way too far - seriously hampering
the use of spatial data in this country.

"Any site that uses Google Maps to enter routes in the UK, would not
need to apply for a Paper Map Copying Licence, all they need to do is
comply with the terms and conditions on the various sites where they
obtain the mapping from."

So, as usual, a complete and utter muddle. OS really need to sort out
what they want to control, what they want to charge, and set up a
sensible licence that works for online and digital data. None of us
here are particularly interested in copying paper maps!

However: as far as Google Maps go, it's only necessary for Google to
relinquish universal rights over data which they're not actually
given, isn't it?

Andrew

 1) Can OS data (or other copyrighted data) be displayed on Google
Maps, without infringing on that copyright. (this is an issue with the
Google TOS)

and 2) does the OS have any claim (and hence right to veto) over
derived data (this is for the the OS or courts to decide)

- www.nearby.org.uk - www.geograph.org.uk -

I have heard that insiders at the OS like my
wheresthepath.googlepages.com/wheresthepath.htm + its been placed in
the Show Us A Better Way competition. Its facilities might challenge
the ability to define 'derived work'. Is linking cursors and
displaying grid references on a dual OS maps and Google Imagery page
allowed !?

Private users will not mind much if the OS want to claim rights over a
GPX route they have clicked on a web displayed OS map. If such a route
is shared over the web, will the downloader's mind if the OS want to
consider it theirs rather than the poster's? What part does the
hosting service play? What if I upload a GPX track log of a hike, and
snap it to OS map paths and roads and then publish it on the web? The
creative bit here is the planning/design of a  route, not its
coordinates - I think the route's design belongs to its creator.

The OS need to move into the GPS / SmartPhone world. We should expect
to be able to use OS maps (cached) on iPhone, GPhone etc. Perhaps the
1:50/25K map pub (POI) symbols could hot link to web sites to pay for
the map rendering (but that migth be like adverts on the BBC)

I suspect that the Show Us A Better Way competition might just
deliberately be politically provocative. Its winning idea needs the UK
Postcode and Boundary-Line data set.

Hope I don't have to use the Cabinet Office's prize money to pay for a
lawyer!

cheers, Ross K

http://www.freeourdata.org.uk/docs/use-of-google-maps-for-display-and...

This is not good news for UK Online Mappers

Mapperz
http://mapperz.blogspot.com/

On Nov 11, 7:43 pm, Rossko <ros...@culzean.clara.co.uk> wrote:

Please star it!

Andrew

On Nov 13, 8:28 am, "warden [Andrew Leach - Maps API Guru]"

Oh well. It was nice while it lasted. It will be interesting to see
what happens to my issue.

Andrew

regardless, the new TOS and Ed's post don't seem to clarify the
situation...I'd like to believe this is still just a misunderstanding
of the terms

On Nov 13, 9:09 am, "warden [Andrew Leach - Maps API Guru]"

Any Data created in MyMaps/MapMaker is the Users/Google, but in the UK
the Original Data was Ordnance Survey's [TeleAtlas brought the Digital
rights].

The issue here was to Local Government in the UK - they have to use OS
data - but also need to cut costs making it accessible (via the
Internet).
So if they plot a new housing estate on Google Maps using the API -
they are in breach of the OS data licence.
Even when the data is paid for - once by the UK tax payer 'capture' -
two by the local government (again paid for by the UK tax payer).
'Local Authority Service Level Agreement'
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/education/teachingresources...
"Crown copyright applies to all Ordnance Survey maps or based mapping
from the publication date to the end of that calendar year and then
for a further 50 years."

Mapperz
http://mapperz.blogspot.com/

On Nov 13, 2:23 pm, bFlood <bFlood...@gmail.com> wrote:

IMO this is largely a problem of Google's making. The OS is not
unusual in being aggressive about the IP in its map data. If Google
didn't try to claim additional redistribution rights for user content
then the issue wouldn't arise.

cheers
Richard

cheers
Richard