"Pure" Inbox View???
Ken_G
is cluttered with .. well, with everything except what's in the trash.
Once things have been labelled, you can get views of items with a
single label, but there does not appear to be any way to get a view of
only "unlabelled" items.
Can anybody point out if I'm missing something? This is kind of
annoying. The good thing about folders is that once you move something
into them you no longer have to look at them except when you want to.
Ludwik
inblox, others should be archived.
Fanis Hatzidakis
Then you'll only see it in All mail and any possible labels it's filed
under. Think of the inbox as yet another label. Archiving something
removes label:inbox from that email.
Fanis
G.Waleed Kavalec
G. Waleed Kavalec
-------------------------------
Copyright: G. Waleed Kavalec 2005
This message may be resent and/or repuplished
provided the content and this notice are kept intact.
Ken_G
of an interface that is still immature and poorly thought out.
I see when I click the "All Mail" button that there is, indeed, an
"inbox" label, as was mentioned here. So, if there is an inbox label,
why am I not presented with "inbox" as another label in the label list
on the left so I can just select an "inbox" view.
It makes so much more sense to let me select an "inbox" label view so I
can see what I want to see instead of having to mess around selecting
and archiving all the stuff I don't want to see.
The people designing this Gmail interface must be from another planet,
or have never used email in their lives and are being kept in a locked
room so they will never be exposed to those of us who have used email
for decades. Yahoo's interface has lots to dislike about it, but on
balance it's lightyears ahead of the Gmail interface at this point.
Again, thanks for the quick and useful responses from all. It may be a
backwards way to do things but it lets me get the view I want.
...ken...
Justin Gruenberg
> The people designing this Gmail interface must be from another planet,
> or have never used email in their lives and are being kept in a locked
> room so they will never be exposed to those of us who have used email
> for decades. Yahoo's interface has lots to dislike about it, but on
> balance it's lightyears ahead of the Gmail interface at this point.
Some of us, myself included, absolutely love Gmail's interface. It
simply comes down to.. if you don't like it, don't use it.
Ken_G
knowledge of the designers, Justin.
I fully understand why those who love the interface love it. Because I
fully understand what the designers are trying to achieve. However, I
don't see that as any reason to ignore the fact that they are
overlooking a lot ... a *lot* ... of very basic stuff.
It's hard to think of the development effort as anything but immature
when you see so many half-implemented features .. importing addresses
but can't export .. enabling the display of graphics from an email
address but can't disable .. providing labels for everything, including
"inbox" as a label but not able to choose just that one label to view.
That last one shows a real disconnect somewhere because they had to
make a special effort to make it not possible to select as a view.
Since "inbox" is just another label, all they had to do was leave it in
the list to choose from, eg. do nothing. Instead they take the extra
effort to exclude it from the list of labels you can choose to view.
I will be the first to admit that my expectations are coloured by the
excellence of Google Search and Google Maps, my only other exposure to
the company. By comparison .. contrast, actually .. the folks doing
Gmail have a neat idea but seem to be having a great deal of difficulty
executing. It leads one to think that they've got themselves caught in
the Not Invented Here syndrome and are going to reinvent everything
about the email interface when not all of it needs reinventing. And
they aren't doing a very good job with the more mundane bits that
perhaps aren't as sexy for the developers.
If it's not that, the only thing left is that they are intentionally
crippling the interface in specific ways, and that notion doesn't fly
with me at all. The powers that be at Google Inc must want this thing
to work or they wouldn't have let it out of the bag to the public, even
with a "beta" tag on it.
I'm sorry if you think I'm making a personal attack on someone but as
an IT professional of nearly thirty years it really pains me to see a
brilliant idea hamstrung by such contrasting execution ... good
implementation of the new approach and shoddy implementation of some of
the fundamentals that every email interface needs and should have been
part of the product before it even went out to beta.
As long as it's been in beta and as good as Search and Maps are, I
guess I'm just feeling let down by the inconsistancy of Gmail. I
apologize if that offends you.
...ken...
Brandan Lloyd
You stated that "... they had to make a special effort to make it not
possible to select as a view. Since "inbox" is just another label".
What is wrong with clicking on the Inbox "label" on the top left-hand
side of the page? This is your inbox. The only thing that I can
think of is that you feel that because all your mail is still in their
then it is technically still the "All Mail" label. But in this
respect GMail works the same as any other email service that I have
ever used. All the mail stays in your inbox until you move it out of
there, by either deleting it or moving it to another "folder" (which
is similar to just saying apply a single label and archiving it).
Maybe it is because the concept is new. Applying multiple labels
instead of just having only one "label/folder" available. Rather
than copying a single email to multiple folders which would be similar
to the GMail concept but increases your storage requirement, GMail
allows you to apply multiple labels to an email and then say "move
this out of my inbox" (or archive it).
I do agree that there are features that have yet to be implemented
like contact exporting, creating groups of users (I believe that this
can be done but it should be easier), disabling the display of images
from approved addresses, etc.
But all of this, as has been said many times, is the reason that the
service is still in Beta. If, as a user, you are unhappy using an
incomplete or less than perfect implementation you probably shouldn't
be part of the Beta process. However if you are happy using a Beta
product and like to provide productive feedback to make the product
better then please add your constructive criticism.
I say this as a Software Engineer.
Brandan
Ken_G
left-hand side of the page? This is your inbox. The only thing that I
can think of is that you feel that because all your mail is still in
their then it is technically still the "All Mail" label."
That's not a label; it's a navigation button. And, Yes, that is
precisely my point: the result of clicking that navigation button is an
"All Mail" view, except one of the labels has been hidden and is
unavailable for View selection. The developers took extra effort to
make it so.
As a software engineer you must realize that this is a question of
thought process, not one of technicalities. It's a question of
understanding - or misunderstanding - how a product will be used. In
this particular instance they have taken their highly flexible concept
of labels and intentionally strangled the single most commonly useful
aspect of it. We use the inbox all the time (if we aren't using a POP
connection). It's our first and most common contact with the product.
Why limit its usefulness even a little bit when it would have been
easier not to limit it at all?
I'm perfectly comfortable using a beta product. I'm also comfortable
making comments that go beyond the purely technical if they seem
justified. I view the way a user feels when they encounter a product as
the epitome of productive feedback and constructive criticism. The user
interface is the make or break point of any software product.
Especially one with a vast array of competitors. In such a marketplace
it is insufficient to simply have a better idea. It is insufficient
even to execute that better idea very well. You also have to get the
basics right. But as a software engineer you already know that.
I also believe, from first-hand experience as a developer, a
development manager and a long-time beta tester of many products, that
a wake-up call in the form of an emotional response is sometimes more
appropriate input than just another technical request that will get
added to the long and growing list of "enhancement" requests. Some
"enhancements" that in the case of Gmail are really basics that have
existed in email clients for decades. They may choose to implement them
in a fashion that has the Gmail spin on them, to fit with the new
approach. But they should already be there. In my not so humble opinion.
Brandan Lloyd
Google's addresses this (kind of) on their help page:
<https://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=7190&query=search&topic=0&type=f&ctx=en:search>
Search for messages by label*
*There isn't a search operator for unlabeled messages
We had a discussion on this same idea in December:
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Gmail-Users/browse_thread/thread/376e330b8f484a44/01bc8f4c3a9c7755>
I apologize for my misunderstanding of your request. I thought that
you were just lamenting the fact that emails were staying in your
Inbox after being labelled.
You are right it would be nice to have a way to get to all unlabeled
emails very quickly. I needed this awhile ago when I added a new
label and then wanted to go back and apply it to messages from the
past that should be in this label but, at the time, it didn't exist.
I submitted this as a suggestion to Google
<https://services.google.com/inquiry/gmail_suggest/> back in December
but I haven't heard anything beyond the canned response.
Brandan
Ken_G
quite have it. At least the discussion you pointed me to is off a bit.
It talks about "unlabeled". That's not what I want. What I want is way
easier, and would be available to us if the developers had simply
chosen not to hide one specific label from our use.
Go to your All Mail view. Take a close look and you will see that there
is an "inbox" label. All I want is for it to be added to the dropdown
list of labels you can select to view. That would give me the "pure"
inbox view that I want.
That's the request I've submitted to the Gmail team.
I really can't understand why the developers chose to restrict our
access to this one label, considering that it would be so very useful.
By the way, it would also address the desire for an "unlabelled" label,
in most instances. The way it is implemented, it is very nearly the
equivalent of "unlabelled", the way most people use their inboxes.
...ken...
Greg Ritter
On 5/16/05, Ken_G <Ken.Ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the links, Brandan. You're getting close, but still may not
quite have it. At least the discussion you pointed me to is off a bit.
It talks about "unlabeled". That's not what I want. What I want is way
easier, and would be available to us if the developers had simply
chosen not to hide one specific label from our use.
How is that different from what you can do with every other label?
Granted, it's done differently, but that's because it's a system-defined label, not a user-defined label. System-defined components and user-defined components can never be managed identically.
Go to your All Mail view. Take a close look and you will see that there
is an "inbox" label. All I want is for it to be added to the dropdown
list of labels you can select to view. That would give me the "pure"
inbox view that I want.
As others have told you, Ken, that's precisely what clicking on the "Inbox" link does -- shows you every message that has the inbox label. Why is that inadequate? Why is that not a "pure inbox" view?
The drop-down, by the way, is not for selecting views, but for applying labels. In every view (except the Inbox view and the All Mail view), the drop-down list does have a "Move to Inbox" option that applies the Inbox label to the selected conversation. In the All Mail view, the Move to Inbox action is promoted from the drop-down to a button. Of course, in the Inbox view there's no "Move to Inbox" option just like in the "foobar" view you don't have the option to apply the "foobar" label -- all of the messages in that view already have the label in question.
Furthermore, the inbox label is a system-specific label, not a user-defined label. The collapsible green box on the left hand side that lists labels is for user-defined labels. These are labels you create and you can modify. It would not be appropriate to list system specific labels here, because the interface implies that labels in that green box are editable by the user. System-specific labels, like "inbox," are not user-modifiable. (You can test this, too: try creating a label named "inbox" or "unread" or "starred" or any of the other system-defined labels. It will tell you that you're not allowed.)
That's the request I've submitted to the Gmail team.
I really can't understand why the developers chose to restrict our
access to this one label, considering that it would be so very useful.
However, even though that holds true, you still have full ability to apply (via Move to Inbox) and remove (via Archive) the inbox label, as well as view all messages that have the inbox label applied (by clicking on Inbox).
By the way, it would also address the desire for an "unlabelled" label,
in most instances. The way it is implemented, it is very nearly the
equivalent of "unlabelled", the way most people use their inboxes.
Sigh. It absolutely, undeniably is not the equivalent of "unlabelled," Ken. This is mind-numbingly simple to prove:
Viewing the Inbox label
- Send yourself two messages, Message A and Message B.
- Click on Inbox. You will see both messages there.
- Click on All Mail. You will see both messages there. They both will display the inbox label.
- Click on Inbox. Select Message A. Click on Archive. Message A disappears from the Inbox view.
- Click on All Mail. You will see both messages there.
- Message A has no label; it is unlabelled. No label is associated with this conversation.
- Message B has the inbox label; it is labelled. (Specifically, labelled with the inbox label.)
- Click on Inbox. Only the messages that have the inbox label (e.g. Message B) are displayed.
Messages with only the inbox label (and no others) display no label in the inbox view, which in your mixed-up perception you are probably mistaking for "unlabelled." But not displaying a label is not the same as being unlabelled. The label is still there and can still be acted upon by search and other actions. Comparing those messages in the Inbox and All Mail views, or by searching on label:inbox, illustrates that they do have the inbox label.
Contrary to what you said, you simply cannot see unlabelled messages in the Inbox. In fact, the only way conversations can show up in the inbox view is if they have the inbox label. The only way to get the inbox label is by a new message in the conversation or by having the user manually re-apply it.
Re-applying the Inbox label:
- Click on All Mail. Select Message A. Click on Move to Inbox. Immediately, the inbox label is applied to Message A. You'll see this right there in All Mail. Message A and Message B both have the inbox label.
- Click on Inbox. Message A and Message B are both in the Inbox view (because they both have the inbox label).
- First we have to remove the inbox label from Message A again:
- Select Message A. Click on Archive. Message A disappears from the Inbox view.
- Click on All Mail. You will see both messages there. Message A is unlabelled. Message B is labelled with the inbox label.
- Now, reply to Message A. After you have replied, the Message A conversation will once again have the Inbox label (because a new message in the conversation has been received, which is the system trigger to apply the inbox label). You will see this automatically in All Mail -- the conversation now has the Inbox label again.
- Click on Inbox. You will see both Message A and Message B are both in the Inbox view (because they both have the inbox label).
--g
Laurent
these "immature interface errors".
It's very quickly read, and easy to understand, and it'll help you
grasp gmail's philosophy before getting a chance to let your old email
reflexes encumber you along the way.
Reading a few easy pages of documentation would even have saved you the
effort of reporting errors which actually are very nice features.
my 2 cents.
Ken_G
lower left of the screen that lists the labels that you click on to
change the view. My mistake. It's clearly not a dropdown.
I did appreciate the detailed response, but you still don't seem to get
what I'm asking for.
Look in your All Mail view and see all of the messages with the "inbox"
label. Now try and get a view that shows *only* those messages. You
can't.
As you and others have explained, the only way you can get the Inbox to
display only those messages with the "inbox" label is to Archive all of
the messages that have some other label, leaving only those with the
"inbox" label.
It's not a huge thing, but it's a nuisance that should be not be
necessary. The label is already on the messages. It should also be
listed in the selection box for viewing by label. That's a totally
benign use of a label which already exists. By selecting such a view
there is no harm that a user can do.
Laurent and Greg, I did search Gmail Help and came up dry. For the
obvious reason: you can't do what I want to do. That's why I asked in
here. That's why I've submitted a request for such a feature.
The suggestions in here have been useful, but only approximations of
what I really want. In the software profession we call them
"workarounds". It's a workaround I'm now using. I hope I don't have to
use it forever.
...ken...
Greg Ritter
I did appreciate the detailed response, but you still don't seem to get
what I'm asking for.
Look in your All Mail view and see all of the messages with the "inbox"
label. Now try and get a view that shows *only* those messages. You
can't.
But here's where we get to the point about you not understanding what you're asking for. Despite what you say, it turns out you're not asking for "a view that shows only those messages with the Inbox label."
Rather, from the next paragraph in your email I can deduce that you're asking for "a view that shows only those messages that have the Inbox label and no other label."
(Hopefully you can see the substantive difference between those two statements. If not, you're a lost cause.)
Which means that next paragraph. . .
As you and others have explained, the only way you can get the Inbox to
display only those messages with the "inbox" label is to Archive all of
the messages that have some other label, leaving only those with the
"inbox" label.
Or, at least, it's correct if we assume that whenever Ken says "only those messages with the Inbox label" he actually means "only those messages with the Inbox label and no other label."
So, yes, the only way to get the Inbox view to show only those messages with the Inbox label and no other label is to Archive all of the messages that have some label other than Inbox, leaving only those with the Inbox label and no other label.
But then you blow your almost-correctness with this:
It's not a huge thing, but it's a nuisance that should be not be
necessary. The label is already on the messages. It should also be
listed in the selection box for viewing by label. That's a totally
benign use of a label which already exists.
What you don't get, Ken, is that this doesn't already exist.
No label view, whether it's the "inbox" or one you created yourself, functions this way. Every label view shows "only those messages with that label." No label views in Gmail show "only those messages with that label and no other label."
Don't believe me? Try it yourself.
- Pick two labels: "ThingA" and "ThingB."
- Pick three messages: "Message 1," "Message 2," and "Message 3"
- Assign ThingA to Message 1
- Assign ThingB to Message 2
- Assign ThingA and ThingB to Message 3
(Okay, well, technically you can by doing a search on "label:ThingA -label:ThingB". However that becomes impractical really quickly if you have a lot of labels (e.g. ThingC through ThingZ), because you'd have to except out every label to find just those that have ThingA and not ThingB through ThingZ.)
I was going through this thread presuming that you understood how labels worked and were just confused by the fact that the "inbox" label is hidden in the "inbox" view. But it turns out that you don't get how labels work.
It turns out what you're asking for, Ken, is . . . folders!
Folders are a way to separate things, to segregate one group of messages from another group of messages. A message cannot be in two folders at once, so each message has one folder and no other folder. Sound familiar? Hint: you're looking for a view that shows messages that have one label and no other label. That's a folder, dude.
But labels are not folders. Folders are subtractive -- the separate things from each other. Labels, on the other hand, are additive. When you add a label to a message, you're adding an attribute to the message. It's a way to group messages without segregating them. With labels your groups overlap; they are not segregated. Although labels and folders are both a means for organizing information, they are fundamentally different.
So if you're holding your breath waiting for Google to add a folder feature to Gmail . . . well, maybe you should head back to Yahoo Mail before your face turns too blue.
--g
Bryon Sommers
I'm curious to see what others do.
Ken_G
Greg Ritter wrote:
>
> Rather, from the next paragraph in your email I can deduce that
you're
> asking for "a view that shows only those messages that have the Inbox
label and
> no other label."
>
> (Hopefully you can see the substantive difference between those two
> statements. If not, you're a lost cause.)
>
Yep, I do.
Guilty as charged .. of sloppy writing. What you said is exactly what I
meant. You can attribute the other misunderstanding to the same
sloppiness of description. I do understand how labels work. Thanks for
picking up on that.
Wow! I have finally encountered someone who is more literal than I am.
That's sort of a compliment, Greg, not a shot. I drive my wife and
daughter bonkers sometimes because they are both way right-brain.
...ken...
Justin Gruenberg
Everything else is kept. Might as well, who knows when you might want
to see what happened in the past?
I've been using 13% of my mailbox for the past few months--it's been
growing at about the same rate that I recieve mail.
Fuzzy Logic
messages needing approval. I've never needed to look at them more than
a few days later. I've been holding steady at 21%.
Fuzzy
--
"Men may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do."
*Lewis Cass {1782-1866 American Politician}
Mark Milford
remembered something was once mentioned on a mailing list I'm on,
quick search of the archive and I've found it again.
Mark Milford
The C50C
c50cna...@gmail.com
bartheq
On 5/19/05, Mark Milford <c50cna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I keep absolutely everything except SPAM, after all several times I've
> remembered something was once mentioned on a mailing list I'm on,
> quick search of the archive and I've found it again.
>
http://bartheq.info
Greg Ritter
--g
Mark Dorett
Darryl Rayburn
for example, go into the trash. Old habits die hard.
Ken_G
available, I can't see any point in wasting it by storing useless junk.
A perfect example is the one that started this portion of the thread ..
the messages confirming that submissions to a mailing list were
received. Unless I have a very specific reason for keeping one of
those, they go into the trash automatically.
Other things that get tossed are all the jokes the friends and
acquaintances send. I keep the occasional good one, but the vast
majority go into the trash.
I doubt if I will ever get into the habit of keeping junk (not spam,
just stuff that is immediately useless, or momentarily interesting, to
me) just because there is space. Just because you *can* do something
doesn't mean it's always a good idea to do it.
Caveat: I should mention that I've been using email since the days of
usenet (over twenty years), so I've gotten pretty good at figuring out
what I'm likely to want to have around later. For those who are less
sure, Gmail's seemingly unlimited storage is very useful. For natural
packrats like me, it's a horrible temptation. :)
Gordon Stewart
:- Message saying pending message / member in my groups.
(have to think of more....)
--
G Stewart
NZ: new_zealan...@yahoogroups.com
NZ Bus Website
http://busnz.kwister.com/ - Updated
Karen....@gmail.com
it again and it hasn't been labeled, click on "All Mail" or do an
appropriate search. Then, when you look at your inbox, it should be
"pure".