A client informed me that she prefered that I use FLAT backgrounds for their videos, because the gradients wash out upon projection.
I realize now that maybe this is that age-old gamma issue again. I am editing on FCP, and outputing a WMV file (made via Flip4Mac) for preview purposes, then I submit a DVD which I presume is also used for projection.
She told me that an earlier work I did was almost entirely unviewable because it was all washed out.
I reviewed the graphic and made the backgrounds darker, so the text stands out better. But I realize that if the gamma settings dont match, then this might be the reason why the gradients get lost in the projection. What do you guys think?
I now live in a retirement community where I prepare video for projection quite often. I learned to be VERY careful about brightness and contrast. I can NOT have any signal that is over about 95% on the waveform, preferably around 90% or it will totally wash out. The projector is an older Eiki being fed through a couple of pieces of other equipment as well.
A standard DV color bar looks fine but when you start to run continuous tone material to the projector, the levels are very critical.
Aloha, Jon Burkhart
In a message dated 6/24/2009 1:36:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
I realize now that maybe this is that age-old gamma issue again. I am editing on FCP, and outputing a WMV file (made via Flip4Mac) for preview purposes, then I submit a DVD which I presume is also used for projection.
I think I'd like to see some pics. Did you actually review the output of their projector? Is it a newer or older model? Sure sounds like operator error.
I dunno though. I've been told a lot of my photo montages are shown on projectors at weddings and things, but nobody's ever complained. The only concession I did a couple years ago was to include a black matte around the safe area because people on the lists kept telling me some projectors have a larger overscan area.
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:36 AM, Randy Quimpo <randy.qui...@gmail.com>wrote:
> A client informed me that she prefered that I use FLAT backgrounds for > their videos, because the gradients wash out upon projection.
> I realize now that maybe this is that age-old gamma issue again. I am > editing on FCP, and outputing a WMV file (made via Flip4Mac) for > preview purposes, then I submit a DVD which I presume is also used for > projection.
> She told me that an earlier work I did was almost entirely unviewable > because it was all washed out.
> I reviewed the graphic and made the backgrounds darker, so the text > stands out better. But I realize that if the gamma settings dont > match, then this might be the reason why the gradients get lost in the > projection. What do you guys think?
If the levels and gamma are correct for NTSC or PAL video, and the DVD is played on a set-top DVD player, and that DVD player is connected to the projector, and the projector is set up correctly, there shouldn't be any issues. The projector should make the adjustments for gamma for signals coming into the video inputs.
If the levels and gamma are correct for NTSC or PAL video, and the DVD is played from a computer connected to the projector via VGA, there could be gamma mismatch problems. Not sure if the software players correct for the difference in gamma.
>I think I'd like to see some pics. Did you actually review the >output of their projector? Is it a newer or older model? Sure sounds >like operator error.
>I dunno though. I've been told a lot of my photo montages are shown >on projectors at weddings and things, but nobody's ever complained. >The only concession I did a couple years ago was to include a black >matte around the safe area because people on the lists kept telling >me some projectors have a larger overscan area.
>On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:36 AM, Randy Quimpo ><<mailto:randy.qui...@gmail.com>randy.qui...@gmail.com> wrote:
>A client informed me that she prefered that I use FLAT backgrounds for
>their videos, because the gradients wash out upon projection.
>I realize now that maybe this is that age-old gamma issue again. I am
>editing on FCP, and outputing a WMV file (made via Flip4Mac) for
>preview purposes, then I submit a DVD which I presume is also used for
>projection.
>She told me that an earlier work I did was almost entirely unviewable
>because it was all washed out.
>I reviewed the graphic and made the backgrounds darker, so the text
>stands out better. But I realize that if the gamma settings dont
>match, then this might be the reason why the gradients get lost in the
>projection. What do you guys think?
-- @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Bill Haddad
TRANSMEDIA Technical Staff
Department of Art and Art History
University of Texas at Austin
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Another issue could be that the projector is in presentation mode. Many projectors will stretch and clip both the shadows and highlights in presentation mode, to make a poorly-designed Powerpoint presentation look better. Unfortunately, this makes video playback look terrible.
Another issue that cheap single-DLP projectors often have is sparkling whites. 99% looks fine, and 100% turns into shimmering, sparkly crap. I've worked with hundreds of different projectors, and unless it's a high-end 3-DLP model, I greatly prefer LCD.
If you have physical access to the projector, it could be helpful to display a black-to-white gradient, to get an idea of how it responds.
Angus
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Bill Haddad <bhad...@mail.utexas.edu>wrote:
> If the levels and gamma are correct for NTSC or PAL video, and the DVD is > played on a set-top DVD player, and that DVD player is connected to the > projector, and the projector is set up correctly, there shouldn't be any > issues. The projector should make the adjustments for gamma for signals > coming into the video inputs.
> If the levels and gamma are correct for NTSC or PAL video, and the DVD is > played from a computer connected to the projector via VGA, there could be > gamma mismatch problems. Not sure if the software players correct for the > difference in gamma.
> Another issue could be that the projector is in presentation mode.
My most common experience of projectors is that at sometime in the
past, someone has cranked up the brightness and contrast to overcome
ambient screen spill when the projector is too weak for the job in
hand.
From then on, EVERYTHING looks rubbish - but you can see it!
It take someone with a little knowledge of what a picture should look
like and enough discipline to close the blinds to put things right -
but why should the average punter bother ;-)
Lesson learned - NEVER let your production be critically viewed on a
projector without you having set it up beforehand.
Well, I'm the operator ;^) It's just that the system was installed several years ago and goes through a couple of pieces of old analog/digital conversion equipment I don't understand and I'm not sure I want to open that can of worms. Remember, this is a retirement community and I'm just a volunteer. Don't ask about a schematic of the system. . ."What's that?"
Anyway, my point is, for anyone doing videos that are going to be seen on a multitude of different pieces of equipment, be careful about your levels both audio and video. Too often today it's easy to turn out stuff that's 110% or more on the waveform and your monitoring system can handle it but looks very poor on systems with little or no headroom (anything over 100%).
Just a little advice from an old geezer who remembers the days of vacuum-tube microwaves and inter-carrier buzz which reminds me of too many other stories.
Aloha, Jon Burkhart
In a message dated 6/24/2009 11:28:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
I think I'd like to see some pics. Did you actually review the output of their projector? Is it a newer or older model? Sure sounds like operator error.
>Well, I'm the operator ;^) It's just that the system was installed >several years ago and goes through a couple of pieces of old >analog/digital conversion equipment I don't understand
You're the op at the retirement community, but you aren't the OP to whom I was responding. In your case, it may be best to force them to simplify. A new projector would run <$1000. I won't even suggest in this thread how you might go about forcing them to need a new one. :)
>Lesson learned - NEVER let your production be critically viewed on a >projector without you having set it up beforehand.
Alas, these days it's rare to know *how* our productions are going to be viewed. Not so long ago it was just a question of CRT or projection, but these days it could also be plasma, LCD, internet, 720p, etc. And surveys have shown that very few people are capable of setting these devices correctly. Next time you go visiting, ask them when the last time was they changed their aspect ratio. You'll be lucky if you don't just get dumb looks in return. And that's one of the easier controls.
I was the director of a documentary film festival for six years. We
developed the routine to let *every* filmmaker (all the filmmakers are
usually present at that festival) check the projection (videobeamer, very
rare people brought real film reels) together with the operator right
before the screening - AND with someone of the festival.
Nowadays a friend of mine is running that festival, that happened to take
place two weeks ago. It appeared that one of the most important films (185
minutes, without a single boring moment!) made by a distinguished
filmmaker, didn't play on the DVCAM deck that had functioned already for
days; it stopped after 19 seconds, every time. He had a DVD at hand, but
that clearly wasn't giving a result as good as the tape did. So I rushed
home to get my old Sony DHR-1000 deck and it worked flawlessly.
BTW, I forgot to ask the filmmaker whether he intentionally limited the
film to 185 minutes, because that's the maximum length for a large PAL
DVCAM cassette :-) (and officially it's 184 minutes).
Of course, this is a real theatre, for performances mainly, but also
sreenings, with a real mixing / lighting table etc. And the beamer is only
one year old, as is the film screen. Still, it depends a lot on the
operator of the day to what extent they will take a step further! And the
routine of testing has proved to be very important in quite some cases!
(esp. with the different formats, with PAL/NTSC, different aspect ratio's).
Ton Guiking
Op Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:25:10 +0200 schreef Joe Parker
<joepark...@gmail.com>:
>> Well, I'm the operator ;^) It's just that the system was installed
>> several years ago and goes through a couple of pieces of old
>> analog/digital conversion equipment I don't understand
> You're the op at the retirement community, but you aren't the OP to whom
> I
> was responding. In your case, it may be best to force them to simplify. A
> new projector would run <$1000. I won't even suggest in this thread how
> you
> might go about forcing them to need a new one. :)
>> Lesson learned - NEVER let your production be critically viewed on a
>> projector without you having set it up beforehand.
> Alas, these days it's rare to know *how* our productions are going to be
> viewed. Not so long ago it was just a question of CRT or projection, but
> these days it could also be plasma, LCD, internet, 720p, etc. And surveys
> have shown that very few people are capable of setting these devices
> correctly. Next time you go visiting, ask them when the last time was
> they
> changed their aspect ratio. You'll be lucky if you don't just get dumb
> looks
> in return. And that's one of the easier controls.
Quite so. A few years ago I made a very laborious (but profitable) animation to show on a sideways Plasma via DVD at an exhibition. The final (After Effects) render took about 40 hours! The plasma/player was provided by a professional AV company and I just assumed that it would display full screen. I got a call the day before the exhibition opened to say the graphics were getting clipped to the point where they were losing text letters! I had to shrink the picture and make up a new DVD, somewhat losing quality. Nobody complained but I knew it could have been better! As they say - Assumption is the mother of all FUs! Perry Mitchell
________________________________________ From: Joe Parker
Alas, these days it's rare to know *how* our productions are going to be viewed. Not so long ago it was just a question of CRT or projection, but these days it could also be plasma, LCD, internet, 720p, etc. And surveys have shown that very few people are capable of setting these devices correctly. Next time you go visiting, ask them when the last time was they changed their aspect ratio. You'll be lucky if you don't just get dumb looks in return. And that's one of the easier controls.
I was reminded the other day that I once reshot a famous BBC film called 'London to Brighton in 5 Minutes' but in video. It was to promote the then new BVH-500A portable one inch VTR. It is basically speeded up footage shot in a train driver's cab. Now the actual train journey lasts just over one hour, but with the odd red signal it is typically 70 minutes. The BVH-500A was nominally 60 min max but I found that I could wind nearly 75 min of tape onto a 60 min spool before it got bigger than the cheeks. I also had to get my friends at PAG to make up a large NiCad PSU that would power the VTR and (BVP-330) camera for the required time. It all worked splendidly.
Your filmmaker could have course used DV mode (with identical quality) and got 276 minutes!
BTW, I forgot to ask the filmmaker whether he intentionally limited the film to 185 minutes, because that's the maximum length for a large PAL DVCAM cassette :-) (and officially it's 184 minutes).
And if that's not enough, run a firewire cable from your camera to another camera or deck and take turns recording what your main camera sees until you have no more DV tape.
Just don't ask me to edit it ;^)
Aloha, Jon Burkhart
In a message dated 6/25/2009 7:07:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Op Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:44:41 +0200 schreef <Burkhartm...@aol.com>:
> And if that's not enough, run a firewire cable from your camera to
> another
> camera or deck and take turns recording what your main camera sees until
> you have no more DV tape.
> Just don't ask me to edit it ;^)
I won't, we were talking *edited* movies, Jon :-)
Ciao,
Ton
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