I am shooting a workshop for the World Bank in a couple of weeks, and
the venue will only be using overhead house lights to light everything
- even the presenters on the podium and panel on the stage. There will
be enough light to shoot at about f2.4, but the shot looks dull and I
am quite embarassed to shoot it this way because its so ugly.
The room will seat about 80 persons, with a one foot high platform in
the middle of the end wall acting as a stage. On the platform, a
podium is to one side, and in the middle a long table to seat the
panel of four persons. A large projection screen is at the right
corner of the room.
My instinct is to put up some redheads on the sides to light the
stage, but I am concerned about these being a distraction. I am also
concerned that these might not be bright enough, nor be able to
"throw" the light far enough.
Has anyone done a setup like this? Do the lights on the sides actually
work? My alternative is to use TWO 2K FRESNEL lamps on each side - I
am thinking that these will focus better than the redheads (so that I
can avoid washing out the screen) and will throw across the room
better.
What do you guys think? Or is it better NOT to light at all? Any
thoughts will be appreciated, and thanks in advance!
I would definitely use lights if possible. I obviously don't know the room, but the worst case is they make you take them down. It will look much better to the camera to have front and/or side light. The 2Ks should be more than enough, in fact depending on factors like windows, I would bring some diffusion gels, color correction gel and/or some scrims. 1Ks or even 650s might be better depending on what camera you are using. 2Ks might pop your circuit breakers and their heat is a lot when up full.
Take careful note, the projection is already going to be almost washed out due to the ambient overhead lighting, so make sure you have barn doors on whatever instruments you use to keep them off the screen. Be prepared for the client to turn off the overhead lights if they do wash out the projection. If that happens, they will need your lights.
HTH
Jacques
On 10/30/08 1:31 PM, "RandyQ" <Randy.Qui...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am shooting a workshop for the World Bank in a couple of weeks, and > the venue will only be using overhead house lights to light everything > - even the presenters on the podium and panel on the stage. There will > be enough light to shoot at about f2.4, but the shot looks dull and I > am quite embarassed to shoot it this way because its so ugly.
> The room will seat about 80 persons, with a one foot high platform in > the middle of the end wall acting as a stage. On the platform, a > podium is to one side, and in the middle a long table to seat the > panel of four persons. A large projection screen is at the right > corner of the room.
> My instinct is to put up some redheads on the sides to light the > stage, but I am concerned about these being a distraction. I am also > concerned that these might not be bright enough, nor be able to > "throw" the light far enough.
> Has anyone done a setup like this? Do the lights on the sides actually > work? My alternative is to use TWO 2K FRESNEL lamps on each side - I > am thinking that these will focus better than the redheads (so that I > can avoid washing out the screen) and will throw across the room > better.
> What do you guys think? Or is it better NOT to light at all? Any > thoughts will be appreciated, and thanks in advance!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jacques Mersereau Video and Performance Studio Coordinator Digital Media Commons Duderstadt Center, Room 1356 University of Michigan 2281 Bonisteel Boulevard Ann Arbor, MI 48109 jac...@umich.edu Phone: 734.647.6336
Hi Jacques, Thanks for the tip! These were very helpful and confirmed many of my initial concerns. Considering that the shoot will take place over two days, I agree that 2Ks might be too hot and could overload the circuitry. I will be using a PD170 / VX2100, which is why we can get f2.4 with a little (9DB) gain - this is the light level when the projectors are on. I think that even just a slight increase in light level and light modeling will go a long way with these cameras.
Regarding barndoors, I concur - in fact I thought about bringing some black foil and creating a snoot of some sort (also the idea why I thought of using fresnel - these focus better and theoretically dont spill as much).
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:59 AM, Jacques Mersereau <jac...@umich.edu> wrote:
> I would definitely use lights if possible. I obviously don't know the room, > but the worst case is they make you take them down. It will look much > better to the camera to have front and/or side light. The 2Ks should be > more than enough, in fact depending on factors like windows, I would bring > some diffusion gels, color correction gel and/or some scrims. 1Ks or even > 650s might be better depending on what camera you are using. 2Ks might pop > your circuit breakers and their heat is a lot when up full.
> Take careful note, the projection is already going to be almost washed out > due to the ambient overhead lighting, so make sure you have barn doors on > whatever instruments you use to keep them off the screen. Be prepared for > the client to turn off the overhead lights if they do wash out the > projection. If that happens, they will need your lights.
> HTH
> Jacques
> On 10/30/08 1:31 PM, "RandyQ" <Randy.Qui...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am shooting a workshop for the World Bank in a couple of weeks, and >> the venue will only be using overhead house lights to light everything >> - even the presenters on the podium and panel on the stage. There will >> be enough light to shoot at about f2.4, but the shot looks dull and I >> am quite embarassed to shoot it this way because its so ugly.
>> The room will seat about 80 persons, with a one foot high platform in >> the middle of the end wall acting as a stage. On the platform, a >> podium is to one side, and in the middle a long table to seat the >> panel of four persons. A large projection screen is at the right >> corner of the room.
>> My instinct is to put up some redheads on the sides to light the >> stage, but I am concerned about these being a distraction. I am also >> concerned that these might not be bright enough, nor be able to >> "throw" the light far enough.
>> Has anyone done a setup like this? Do the lights on the sides actually >> work? My alternative is to use TWO 2K FRESNEL lamps on each side - I >> am thinking that these will focus better than the redheads (so that I >> can avoid washing out the screen) and will throw across the room >> better.
>> What do you guys think? Or is it better NOT to light at all? Any >> thoughts will be appreciated, and thanks in advance!
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Jacques Mersereau > Video and Performance Studio Coordinator > Digital Media Commons > Duderstadt Center, Room 1356 > University of Michigan > 2281 Bonisteel Boulevard > Ann Arbor, MI 48109 > jac...@umich.edu > Phone: 734.647.6336
You're on the right track. Your gut feeling is exactly right. The fresnels will be able to focus the light better. Put the 2Ks of two different circuits and use screms, barn doors or black foil to control the spill. If you're worried about them being too hot, maybe they could be further away than you originally planned.
It's all about getting the proper amount of light coming from the proper direction to balance with the ambient light in the room. You REALLY need to find out if they're going to kill the room lights when the projector is in use and light accordingly.
Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
Aloha, Jon
In a message dated 10/30/2008 1:32:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
I got lucky once a few years back, was shooting a meeting, maybe 20 or
30 attendees, smaller meeting room. Projector and screen, so they
turned the lights down. I had talked to the client before, and we were
planning to get good audio, and then mostly just edit in the
powerpoint slides, so they didn't care so much if the video of the
presenter was very dark, etc.
Well, I eventually noticed there was a small lamp on the podium, and
it was reflecting a nice amount of light on the presenters face, so
from then on I had my main camera zoomed in on presenter, and my back
up camera had a wide shot of the screen and most of the room, from the
back. While the video quality shooting the screen basically sucked, it
worked great to sync the slides up later, and I was able to do a nice
picture in picture effect, with the presenter "windowed" over the
slides.
So, maybe rather than bringing in big lights from far back, offer to
set up a smaller light so they can read their notes?
> You're on the right track. Your gut feeling is exactly right. The fresnels
> will be able to focus the light better. Put the 2Ks of two different
> circuits and use screms, barn doors or black foil to control the spill. If you're
> worried about them being too hot, maybe they could be further away than you
> originally planned.
> It's all about getting the proper amount of light coming from the proper
> direction to balance with the ambient light in the room. You REALLY need to
> find out if they're going to kill the room lights when the projector is in use
> and light accordingly.
> Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
> Aloha,
> Jon
> In a message dated 10/30/2008 1:32:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Also, if you have a wide shot locked off which includes the screen, sometimes you can do a "separate region" control in your editing software which covers just the area of the screen in your shot. You then can do all sorts of color corrrection/shparpness/etc control of that area and make it look amazingly good.
Just the thoughts of an old man who has spent too many years trying to make the best of a bad situation ;^)
Aloha, Jon Burkhart
In a message dated 11/1/2008 3:33:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Just beware the rogue presenter! Many the time I've set up some Dedolight spots (great for a small narrow pool of light that doesn't detract from the screen) only to have the presenter miss the agreed target place altogether and stand in complete darkness. This is a particular problem with top executives who don't attend rehearsals! Having a podium is obviously the solution, but many times it is not appropriate. I always used to use the mantra - "If you don't have a light in your face then we can't see you!" FWIW Perry Mitchell
Thanks for all the input! Its nice to see the DV-L "old guard" are still on the ball!
Actually, one of the great technological advances today is these projectors that are powerful enough to project even if the room isn't that dark. This is basically why I can get a useable shot even without lighting the stage - they put the screen in a corner of the room where it is about 1 stop darker. The projector image is good, and I get a mediocre podium shot, haha. Of course, the lights will make the shot much, much better, and I hope the extra effort results in more business down the road.
I will probably ditch my 2K idea - too hot, and draws too much current. In fact i am thinking I can setup a well-snooted 800K redhead to increase the light in the podium area. Will also consider the "practicals" trick, and maybe increase the wattage of the podium reading light, so that I dont need that big a key light. There is still the panel table in the back to light, though, so hopefully two more redheads can cover that plus the area in front of them.
Its funny, though. Its been years since I had a paying client have me do a shot like this.
Also, I will have the cam in the back recording directly to disk - I will try to rig a laptop and digitize directly. I figure this will save me time in the edit later.
Actually, the right tools for a job like this are ellipsoidals (also
known as "lekos"; here is an example - http://tinyurl.com/6ozcv2 ).
They have shutters built-in, behind the lens assembly, so the light
can be "cut" extremely precisely. And Perry is right on the nose
about the "rogue presenter" - first thing I ask in situations like
this is "Are you a podium person or a wanderer?" You pray for them to
say "podium." If not, there is little you can do.
On Nov 1, 7:13 am, "Randy Quimpo" <randy.qui...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all the input! Its nice to see the DV-L "old guard" are
> still on the ball!
Though I realize this isn't answering the question you originally asked but back on the eve of the new millenium, we got a call to do a rush effects job of a major awards event. All of the presentation slides of the event were out of sync or just wrong, lol. The cameras were locked down but they did zoom. There were some foreground objects that needed to be comped in over the images. Our job was to replace 900+ different screen images with the right ones in 2 days. We had a team of 30 people who weren't experienced, so basically it came down to me and a person from the client to set up the comps (in AE), and let the team do all the color changes and processes that we set up for them. It was a major job, paid very well, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to have to rely on "we'll fix it in post" on a million dollar event if it can be avoided, lol.
Bruce A. Johnson wrote: > Actually, the right tools for a job like this are ellipsoidals (also > known as "lekos"; here is an example - http://tinyurl.com/6ozcv2 ). > They have shutters built-in, behind the lens assembly, so the light > can be "cut" extremely precisely. And Perry is right on the nose > about the "rogue presenter" - first thing I ask in situations like > this is "Are you a podium person or a wanderer?" You pray for them to > say "podium." If not, there is little you can do.
> On Nov 1, 7:13 am, "Randy Quimpo" <randy.qui...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for all the input! Its nice to see the DV-L "old guard" are >> still on the ball!
Never heard of this before- does this work just like a follow spot?
Interesting - wonder if someone over here has these stuff. But it looks like something a staging company will have in stock, rather than a video production lighting company.
Regarding the "rogue presenter", I might be able to bully these guys into staying within the confines.. No CEO types here - mostly academic types from NGOs.
Haha, yes, nice to hear from you too Bruce - surely you're on of the older of the "old guard".
rgds/ RandyQ
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Bruce A. Johnson <baj.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, the right tools for a job like this are ellipsoidals (also > known as "lekos"; here is an example - http://tinyurl.com/6ozcv2 ). > They have shutters built-in, behind the lens assembly, so the light > can be "cut" extremely precisely. And Perry is right on the nose > about the "rogue presenter" - first thing I ask in situations like > this is "Are you a podium person or a wanderer?" You pray for them to > say "podium." If not, there is little you can do.
> On Nov 1, 7:13 am, "Randy Quimpo" <randy.qui...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Thanks for all the input! Its nice to see the DV-L "old guard" are >> still on the ball!
I'm gonna agree with Bruce here. Lekos are the way to go. I know
that in Europe they use a slightly different light called a plano-
convex spotlight or "PC light." You may find those in your
location.
Yes, it is just like a follow spot, but much smaller, less power (575
to 1000 watts) and meant to be set like a studio lamp and left alone.
The ETCs are my favorite, as they have a superior optical system that
delivers more precision and more light with less electricity, but many
people make these, Strand, Colortran, Altman, etc. They will likely
come with pipe clamps instead of light stand adapters, but may also
come with light stands or "trees" made of pipe that you can clamp them
to. Your room may have pipes in the ceiling that you can hang them
from, but not likely. Also make sure that you have the right adapters
to plug them into your power, as they may come with stage plugs.
For your event, I would use 4: Two on the podium and two on the
panel. You would probably need only one per task, but having two
would cover you if a bulb died. If I knew the people would stay put,
I would focus the lights down to their area, but if they might move, I
would put light everywhere except on the screen, which you can do
easily with these lights.
Common lenses for these lights are 19, 26, 36, and 50 degree, which
you can choose by simple geometry to cover the area you need from the
distance you have. I would go big, with wider than needed lenses that
you can shutter down to your task. Here I would use a pair of 36
degree lights on the podium and a pair of 50 degree lights on the
panel.
Try placing the lights high enough that the shadows fall low on the
wall behind them. I would also try to pull the podium and the panel
table out from the back wall enough that you don't have distracting
shadows right behind their heads. You can use the top shutter blades
on the lights to chop the light down to just above their heads,
helping to keep the wall behind them darker.
As John Hodgman would say, "More information than you require."
Good luck and have fun,
--Pat Blackard
On Nov 1, 10:26 am, "Randy Quimpo" <randy.qui...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Bruce A. Johnson <baj.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Actually, the right tools for a job like this are ellipsoidals (also
> > known as "lekos"; here is an example -http://tinyurl.com/6ozcv2).
> > They have shutters built-in, behind the lens assembly, so the light
> > can be "cut" extremely precisely. And Perry is right on the nose
> > about the "rogue presenter" - first thing I ask in situations like
> > this is "Are you a podium person or a wanderer?" You pray for them to
> > say "podium." If not, there is little you can do.
I can't believe nobody made a joke off of it. Richard, where were you? :) I have to assume these aren't the skimpily dressed redheads that could be a real distraction? Some other kind of redheads?
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