Globalization, economics, theology, and people in the church

[Bct...@aol.com]

Dear people involved in the globalization discussion,

 

Long post coming, because I have copied two things at the bottom of this posting. 

 

I have read all the postings on globalization, as well as Andy Armstrong's paper, the UCC resolution affirming the Accra Confession, and the Accra Confession itself, but unfortunately, I have not read Max's book.

 

I once wrote a paper on economics and Paul Tillich's theology, in response to an editorial against the Archbishop of Canterbury published in The Economist magazine in 2005.  I was silly and naive enough to actually send a copy of the paper to the Archbishop and The Economist --- how embarrassing to think about now!  I have copied far below the two opening paragraphs of my paper, followed by the editorial.  In my paper, I used books on economics and poverty by Jeffrey Sachs, and on economics and religion by Robert Nelson, in addition to several of Tillich's books (I took a course just on Tillich). 

 

I believe the church and religious institutions have an obligation to understand the world as it is, in all of its complexities, and to rely on the intelligence and expertise of people within and outside the church, without being "naive" about things, as The Economist unfairly and inaccurately accused Rowan Williams of being. 

 

Whether or not a pastor, or someone in the national setting of the UCC, is educated in economics or globalization is not really all that relevant.  To me it's important to acknowledge that there are men and women, and even girls and boys, in all settings of our churches and denominations who do have expertise and real-life experience. Moreover, Christians who work in the business and corporate world are often well aware of the trade-offs and complexities of working in our global economy. There are both good and bad aspects. On the hand, there are opportunities to change the world for the better good through people's expertise and the use of new technologies (as Gabe has been talking about with Iran), or the use of new financial instruments (such as micro-financing or lending to help individuals, especially women, move forward, as Sachs recommends), or in many other ways.  On the one hand, no matter how ethical you try to be or how much you try to act out your faith, you are complicit with the bad things done by the corporation or employer you work for, and the world you live in. 

 

The Accra Confession acknowledges the bad parts in section #34 under its "Confession of faith in the face of economic injustice and ecological destruction," but it fails to address the positive parts. I like the way Andy ends his paper by focusing on what we can do with our vocations and in our daily lives, and I believe that we need to do more with this.  As Robinson says in the book some of us are reading, it is the churches job to help make disciples, and to "form and inform" people.  The church, including the UCC in its national and regional and other settings, needs to also be "formed and informed" by experts (such as Max) as well as by people who do not hold any "official" credentials other than their life stories and experiences of living in this economy and this world.  The UCC respects diversity in so many ways, and yet it fails to respect diversity of opinion and expertise at times, when it goes against what the UCC wants to advocate for or promulgate.  

 

And the recommendations at the end of the UCC resolution are so funny.  Does the UCC stop to think about WHO they are presenting this information to, when they recommend topics for study at the congregational level?  People like senior executives at major corporations, people with degrees in economics, people like Roger who know how the farming and ranching worlds work, people who just want to put a roof over their heads and feed their families and hopefully send their kids to good enough colleges?  People like Rick and all of us who need medical benefits, pensions, and perhaps someday disability income? 

 

Also missing for me in the Accra Confession and the UCC resolution are:

 

1) The acknowledgement that people, including Jesus of Nazareth, have lived in a world dominated by empires for millennia. Just read the Bible.

 

2) The acknowledgement or confession that those who take unilateral positions against globalization and our economic model are acting out of their own "ideology," just as the Confession and UCC resolution accuses others of doing through their "neoliberal ideology."  This could be a sin to confess at some point.

 

3) That without the Internet, laptops, global communications, the ability to travel globally and stay in hotels, etc., Christians could not have gathered together or promoted their ideologies or resolutions in Grand Rapids or Buenos Aires or Accra. 

 

4) The money used for these conferences and their activities could have been given to the poor instead!  But unfortunately the poor have always been with us, and according to Jesus always will be. We do have to face up to the fact, as Sachs and others try to get us to do, that poverty is worse today, in fact horrendous, and that we are all culpable in some way.  But poverty is not the only issue that the church and Christians need to address in their discipleship. We need to be aware of our own idolatries, or times when we turn penultimate concerns into our ultimate concerns (to return to Tillich).

 

I do agree with educating people, as UCC resolutions nearly always call for.  

 

I believe in educating the decision-makers and those in positions of influence and power, both in the church and in the secular world.  Again drawing on Robinson's words, we can help to "form and inform" them, so that they can be better equipped to be saints in the world in which we live.  We can seek to do this at the local congregational level, and at the national (General Synod) and regional levels within our denomination.

 

Who is at the General Synod who can stand up and speak during the resolution process? 

 

Jane Ellingwood

___________________________________________________________________________

 

Here are the title and two opening paragraphs of my paper:

 

“The Economist Meets Paul Tillich”: 

Possibilities for a Theonomous Approach to Economics Today

 

Jane Ellingwood

 

     The Economist gave a tongue-lashing in April, 2005 to Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, because Williams had discussed, in a service, the effects of free trade on vulnerable countries and workers.  In its chiding, the magazine calls the Archbishop to hearken to the belief, which it attributes to Jesus, that “church and state should stick to their core competences [sic].”[1]  Without debating what Jesus meant by his “Render unto Caesar” statement, cited in the article, one can challenge The Economist’s position, in light of developments in theology and economics since the time of Jesus.  In a twenty-first century global society, taking a theonomous approach to economics may do more to serve the needs of individuals and the world in which we live, than enforcing a traditional understanding of the separation of church and state.

     The vision of a theonomous economics developed in this paper is derived from Paul Tillich’s systematic theology and theology of culture.  The theonomous approach that is advocated here is designed to enable the understanding and pursuit of appropriate “ultimate concerns” on behalf of humanity by economists, while respecting the needs of both “self” and “world.”  The goal is to encourage economists to recognize, in their economic principles and models, the imperative of enabling individuals throughout the world to achieve balances between the ontological polarities of “individualization and participation” and “freedom and destiny.”  In our global society and economy, in which destinies are becoming increasingly interconnected, balances between these polarities must be achieved, if we are to hope for a healthy economic life for all. 

---

     [1] The Economist, “Who’re you calling naïve?,” 30 April 2005.

_______________________________________________________________

 

Here is the article from the archives of The Economist magazine

 

 

The Church of England

Who're you calling naive?

Apr 28th 2005
From The Economist print edition

The Archbishop of Canterbury takes on Adam Smith

THIS week Gordon Brown, the chancellor of the exchequer, called for a challenge to the Church of England's teaching on the sufficiency of the scriptures for salvation in the light of new evidence from non-canonical texts. His audience of economists and business leaders responded enthusiastically.

No, of course he didn't. But he ought to, if he is to follow the example of the nation's top spiritual leader, the Archbishop of Canterbury. This week, at a service to celebrate the 60th anniversary of Christian Aid, a charity, Rowan Williams called for a challenge to “naive confidence in free trade”. Free trade, he said, “forces choices on vulnerable countries, whose effects may be in the short to medium term very costly indeed to a whole generation of workers, to the environment, to political stability.”

Leaving aside the question of the short, medium and long-term consequences of protectionism to vulnerable countries, this particular repository of naive confidence in free trade believes that the archbishop would do well to hearken to the advice of his own top spiritual leader. “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's,” said Jesus, thus making clear his belief that church and state should stick to their core competences.

_____________________________________________________________________

[Richard Floyd]

I think this speaks to Jane's point that we have diverse people in our congregations with experience and expertise in the world of economics.  Last night Martha yelled out to me to come to the TV.  Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of General Electric, was on Charlie Rose.  Jeff was a parishioner of mine for many years and sat under my preaching.  He was a regular attender, served as a liturgist, and was a thoughtful and intelligent guy.  Last night he came out very strongly for health care reform, said it was good for people, the country, and business.  He confessed to Charlie Rose that he voted for the other guy in the last election since he was a Republican, which I, for the record, am not.

I bring this up because I recall Max telling me many years ago that elections and governments were increasingly becoming less important, and that many of the decisions that really impacted people and societies were made in corporate boardrooms.  I thought of this as I watched Jeff, the boss of the second largest company in the world,  and thought of him listening to my peculiar Christ and cross-centered preaching.  I wonder how long a guy like him would have stayed in the pew if I had unfurled the latest UCC anti-globalization rant.  Just wondering.

I never made like-mindedness about politics or economics the glue that made us a community.  That would have been Jesus Christ, and in him, all sorts and conditions of people can have opinions, even powerful ones.

Rick Floyd

Richard Floyd

rfl...@berkshire.rr.com

[John Cedarleaf]

Rick,

Well said. Whenever we make like-mindedness about politics or economics
the glue,then it dries out and we fall apart, as we can see from time to
time. I remember a lot of years ago there was a publiciation called
"Christian Economics." It as "right wing". Yet, there are those on the
"left" who wold think that there is a Christian economics as it relates
to political economy etc. Yes there is a prophetic word to be said but
that doesn't mean that there is a definitive word to be said on every topic.

John

> I think this speaks to Jane's point that we have diverse people in our
> congregations with experience and expertise in the world of economics.
> Last night Martha yelled out to me to come to the TV. Jeffrey
> Immelt, the CEO of General Electric, was on Charlie Rose. Jeff was a
> parishioner of mine for many years and sat under my preaching. He was
> a regular attender, served as a liturgist, and was a thoughtful and
> intelligent guy. Last night he came out very strongly for health care
> reform, said it was good for people, the country, and business. He
> confessed to Charlie Rose that he voted for the other guy in the last
> election since he was a Republican, which I, for the record, am not.
>
> I bring this up because I recall Max telling me many years ago that
> elections and governments were increasingly becoming less important,
> and that many of the decisions that really impacted people and
> societies were made in corporate boardrooms. I thought of this as I
> watched Jeff, the boss of the second largest company in the world,
> and thought of him listening to my peculiar Christ and cross-centered
> preaching. I wonder how long a guy like him would have stayed in the
> pew if I had unfurled the latest UCC anti-globalization rant. Just
> wondering.
>
> I never made like-mindedness about politics or economics the glue that
> made us a community. That would have been Jesus Christ, and in him,
> all sorts and conditions of people can have opinions, even powerful ones.
>
> Rick Floyd
>
>
>
> Richard Floyd

> rfl...@berkshire.rr.com <mailto:rfl...@berkshire.rr.com>
>
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2009, at 8:12 AM, Bct...@aol.com <mailto:Bct...@aol.com>

> wrote:
>
>> Dear people involved in the globalization discussion,
>>
>> Long post coming, because I have copied two things at the bottom of
>> this posting.
>>
>> I have read all the postings on globalization, as well as Andy
>> Armstrong's paper, the UCC resolution affirming the Accra Confession,
>> and the Accra Confession itself, but unfortunately, I have not read
>> Max's book.
>>
>> I once wrote a paper on economics and Paul Tillich's theology, in
>> response to an editorial against the Archbishop of Canterbury

>> published in /The Economist /magazine in 2005. I was silly and naive

>> enough to actually send a copy of the paper to the Archbishop and

>> /The Economist --- /how embarrassing to think about now! I have

>> copied far below the two opening paragraphs of my paper, followed
>> by the editorial. In my paper, I used books on economics and poverty
>> by Jeffrey Sachs, and on economics and religion by Robert Nelson, in
>> addition to several of Tillich's books (I took a course just on
>> Tillich).
>>
>> I believe the church and religious institutions have an obligation to
>> understand the world as it is, in all of its complexities, and to
>> rely on the intelligence and expertise of people within and outside

>> the church, without being "naive" about things, as /The Economist
>> /unfairly and inaccurately accused Rowan Williams of being.

>> send their kids to good enough colleges? People like Rick and */all
>> of us/* who need medical benefits, pensions, and perhaps someday

>> *Here are the title and two opening paragraphs of my paper:*
>> **
>> “/The Economist/ Meets Paul Tillich”:

>> Possibilities for a Theonomous Approach to Economics Today
>>
>> Jane Ellingwood
>>
>>
>>

>> / The Economist/ gave a tongue-lashing in April, 2005 to Rowan

>> Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, because Williams had
>> discussed, in a service, the effects of free trade on vulnerable
>> countries and workers. In its chiding, the magazine calls the
>> Archbishop to hearken to the belief, which it attributes to Jesus,
>> that “church and state should stick to their core competences

>> [sic].”[1] <aoldb://mail/write/template.htm#_ftn1> Without debating

>> what Jesus meant by his “Render unto Caesar” statement, cited in the

>> article, one can challenge /The Economist/’s position, in light of

>> developments in theology and economics since the time of Jesus. In a
>> twenty-first century global society, taking a theonomous approach to
>> economics may do more to serve the needs of individuals and the world
>> in which we live, than enforcing a traditional understanding of the
>> separation of church and state.
>> The vision of a theonomous economics developed in this paper is
>> derived from Paul Tillich’s systematic theology and theology of
>> culture. The theonomous approach that is advocated here is designed
>> to enable the understanding and pursuit of appropriate “ultimate
>> concerns” on behalf of humanity by economists, while respecting the
>> needs of both “self” and “world.” The goal is to encourage
>> economists to recognize, in their economic principles and models, the
>> imperative of enabling individuals throughout the world to achieve
>> balances between the ontological polarities of “individualization and
>> participation” and “freedom and destiny.” In our global society and
>> economy, in which destinies are becoming increasingly interconnected,
>> balances between these polarities must be achieved, if we are to hope
>> for a healthy economic life for all.
>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> <aoldb://mail/write/template.htm#_ftnref1> [1] /The Economist/,

>> “Who’re you calling naïve?,” 30 April 2005.
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________
>>

>> *Here is the article from the archives of /The Economist /magazine*
>>
>>
>> *The Church of England*
>>
>> *Who're you calling naive?*

>> Apr 28th 2005
>> From The Economist print edition
>>
>>

>> *The Archbishop of Canterbury takes on Adam Smith*

[herb.davis]

Dear Jane,  I think, I am not sure, that the editors of the Economist are confessing Christians.  I don't think tht willhelp but I is interesting.  Peace, Herb

 

[Jim Gorman]

Jane wrote: In its chiding, the magazine calls the Archbishop to hearken to the belief, which it attributes to Jesus, that “church and state should stick to their core competences [sic].”

 

For what it's worth, I don't think that the word "competences" is a mistake  in the context of the article.

[Bct...@aol.com]

Dear Jim,

 

Yes, as you said, the word "competences" is not a mistake in the context of the article, whether from the point of view of the article's content, or in light of the fact that it was written in the UK, not the US.  But in the US (and in our dictionaries) we typically say "competencies" not "competences" when we give the plural form of this word.  I used "[sic]" to signal to my US audience (my professor in this case) that this was not a typo on my part.  Had I originally written the paper for the purpose of sending it to the Archbishop or The Economist, I would not have put the "[sic]" in. 

 

Do you have other comments on my posting?  I'd like to hear other perspectives on what I wrote here. 

 

And with respect to your comment here about "competences," does this relate to your comments about Max's book you wrote yesterday, where you questioned his argument that his "brand" of theology should inform the globalization debate?  I read your posting and would love to hear more about your position and ideas on this subject. 

 

Jane

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________

[Scott Paeth]

My only observation at this point on the piece is that when an article uses the term "core competencies (or 'competences'!) to describe something related to the church, the genuinely don't know what they're talking about. And, when they say that Jesus taught that "church and state should stick" to to their "core competencies," they've completely missed the theological point.

Scott

[Bct...@aol.com]

Herb, 

 

I am glad to hear that the editors of The Economist might be confessing Christians.  I do like the editors in some ways, because they are brilliant and witty, and they do include religion articles.  

 

In other ways they get things wrong, as they did in their editorial about the Archbishop of Canterbury. Scott has just said it much better than I could in his response to Jim and me, so I won't belabor the point here. 

 

I would really like to hear your other comments on my posting, because I wrote it partly in response to you.  You had said you were thinking of supporting the UCC resolution in support of the Accra Confession, and you were willing to accept more input, and I provided a few perspectives in response to that request, as well as in response to the other dialogue going on in these threads.  

 

I would love to debate with you on some of these topics, in the ways that you have been debating with Gabe and others in this Open Forum.

 

Jane

_________________________________________________________________________________

[Bct...@aol.com]

Rick,

 

Thank you very much for sharing the story about Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO from GE. 

 

Your point about decisions being made in corporate boardrooms is an excellent one. As Immelt said, health care reform could end up being good for the people, the country, and business.  And we can rest relatively assured that if it isn't good for business, it won't happen.

 

So, just for the record and so that you can know me better, I just had my 30th anniversary with IBM on June 4, a week after I graduated from Hartford Seminary with my MA in Theology and Ethics. 

 

I work in a highly-paid, global headquarters job for IBM Global Technology Services, and I do all my work by conference call and e-mail working out of my home.  I am not a technical person any longer, given that I've worked in headquarters far too long, but this is the reason why I can do technical things on behalf of this Open Forum, such as scanning Willis's Thinksheets, and helping solve our mysterious problem when some of our postings were not coming through. 

 

Also just for the record, I went to Hartford Seminary because it allowed me to go part-time and take courses at night.  That is what I did in the 1980s when I got my first MA degree (from Duke), and I am entering the International PhD program part-time this fall.  Moreover, I did my MA thesis and unpaid seminary internship in a church part-time, running concurrently with each other and with some other course work, as well as with my full-time job at IBM.  

 

So I have been very busy.  And I've had my feet in multiple worlds for a while now:  the corporate world, the academic and seminary world, and the world of local congregations -- for a long time now.  And I've written about and studied a lot of other things other than the Trinity, including economics and religion. 

 

So when the debate about globalization, theology, and economics came up in this Open Forum, I wanted to participate in it.  Thank you very much for engaging in dialogue with me, and I look forward to more.

 

And I will send you, via a personal note, a copy of my sermon from yesterday, given that you and I were both preaching yesterday on the same lectionary text.

 

Jane Ellingwood

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________

[Richard Floyd]

Long post warning

Jane,

Thank you for telling us about yourself.  You have an interesting background; we already knew you were smart.

It is good to have some experienced business people in this discussion.  Those of us who have spent our adult lives in the religion business (if I can be crass about it) often see, hear and read things in the media about religion that are lacking in nuance, misleading, or just plain wrong.  And I'm not talking about just the sensationalized popular press or popular books like the Da Vinci Code, but even the NYT, the New Yorker, and the Economist don't always get religion quite right.

My own ministry had a very strong focus on teaching adults the basics of the Christian Faith without dumbing it down for them (I wrote an adult education resource called A Course in Basic Christianity).  Even so I was often frustrated by really intelligent, well-educated folks who were highly trained and knowledgeable in their own fields but were clinging to a very simplistic understanding of the faith.  They would complain that it was so complex, and I wanted to tell them that they dealt with complexity ever day in other spheres of their lives.

Some of the problem is just the explosion of knowledge and information,  and the resulting fracturing of knowledge into niches and sub-specialities.

This is a long-winded approach to my one point, which is I think the church, in much the same way, often addresses economic issues with a kind of simplicity and naivete that is lacking in nuance.  I know this frustrated some of my corporate leaders (at one point years ago the cover of Forbes had some young Turks at GE  who might be in line to replace Jack Welch and all but one were in my congregation.  Jeff eventually was chosen.)  Now I'm an old Leftie from the Sixties and had to learn how to talk with these guys, and I often came away impressed by their understanding of the world.

I became sympathetic to their complaint that some of the pronouncements from General Synod were not helpful or worse.  And  anyone who has ever been behind the scenes in the process of drafting a Synod Resolution knows it's  pretty ham-handed.  My experience is that there is a strong anti-business bias and a tendency to see issues such a free traded and globalization in black and white.  People long to speak truth to power, but there is no monolithic evil to speak to, just complex global connected webs of people and markets, governments and corporations.  Our UCC default  template is the civil rights movement:  racism bad, liberation good.  But global economic issues don't lend themselves that kind of simplicity, at least I don't think they do.

Over the years Max's perspectives have helped me move away from such simplicities.  I don't know if he is always right, but I am convinced that he is on to something when he puts forth that there are resources in our Reformed faith that could help the emerging global realities to imagine how they might be more humane, moral and just.  I look forward to seeing your sermon from yesterday.

Rick Floyd

Richard L. Floyd

rfl...@berkshire.rr.com

[herb.davis]

 Sermon Note:July 12, Sixth Sunday after Pentecost, Mk.6:14-29

Suppose "someone" has been listening to the Gospel lessons for the last few weeks.  Everything is coming up roses.  Jesus is Lord of wave and wind.  Jesus is more powerful than a legion of demons. Jesus heals the bleeding woman and raises the dead girl.  Jesus sends out this disciples and they are highly successful casting out demons and curing the sick.  So the "someone" arrives on this bright Sunday morning enjoying the beauty of the earth, settles into the pew waiting to hear the good news, the uplifting word of comfort and joy, of success and victory only to hear this powerful, graphic story of John the Baptist being beheaded.  I can almost see that "someone" dropping the hymnal and in shock saying,"I didn't come to hear about a beheading!"  I think this is exactly what Mark is hoping will happen.

 

Mark wants us to know that discipleship is not easy.  Even if we get our theology straight and our message out Herod might hear about us.  Even if Herod and Pilate sort of like us they end up killing John and Jesus.  The Gospel never promise a rose garden and we should not be surprised when, despite some favorable signs or responses the political and religious structures might crush us.     

 

Right after the success stories we read, "King Herod heard of it, for Jesus' name had become know" and we are reminded of the death of John the Baptist.  We are reminded of the helpless John the Baptist, praying in his cell while the power and might of the world, because of a slip of the tongue, order his death.   Sorry old chap but I couldn't help.  Mark wants us to be thinking about the death of the one who masters the waves and winds.   Pilate is also helpless and turns away and washes his hands.  No illusions about the world in the Gospel.

 

So we don't look for trouble.  Paul suggest that we live at peace with everyone if we can, but don't be surprised if the world at times might hate us. 

 

So the "someone "who came to church in the bright morning sun  leaves in the midst of a thunderstorm with no illusions about the evolving goodness of the world.  Will that someone continue to trust the one who calms the winds and quiets the wave and raises the death or will that "someone" trust Creaser's Pax?  We'll know next Sunday.

 

Any additions or corrections?  Any liturgical resources?  Peace, Herb

[herb.davis]

Dear Jane,  Two post in one:

1.  I don't see any discussion as private.  Anyone can jump in with wisdom or foolish at any time.  So you are welcome to join the chat Gab and I are having.  At the same time I enjoy your comments.  It's good to know a little back ground, but I don't think ones context, racial, gender, orientation, political party, education, life experience, age or good works gives one moral high ground in any discussion.  I think you made this point earlier in chap 8 of Robinson.  I don't like people being pushed out of a discussion because they are not qualified or have little experience and I don't like folks asking for special allowance if they aren't equipped. 

 

2.  Comments on chap 9:  Thanks for your summary on chap 9 on ecclesiology.  Great job, Chris will be proud.  Again this is a very helpful read for local congregations.  Our pastor mentioned the book in his sermon this week as a good study guide for churches seeking a pastor.

 

A couple of questions:

A.  Robinson claims ecclesiology is the most neglected branch of theology.  I wonder why this is the case.  I would like to suggest a reason and hope we might explore this question if Robinson is right.  I think in this culture any supernatural claim is difficult to make.  Nevin's doctrine of the church and ordination caused a lot of problems.  Barth focus on election is difficult for us.  It is hard to embrace, "people of God," "the elect," "the body of Christ" since they all focus on relationship to God, union with Christ.  For us the important aspect is what we do.  So the shoe store outlet makes sense.  Prof Walker in her book, The Emerging UCC Style" claims the UCC ecclesiology is "The Beloved Community."  The purpose here is to be a loving and caring community.  The focus shifts from the Bride of Christ which bears much fruit, to the fruit that we bear.  So our focus, our marks of the church are often reduced to caring for people's need, doing justice and peace making. 

 

I would agree that the church transforms lives but for me the focus of transformation would be more sacramental in baptism, Holy Communion and the work of the Holy Spirit.  We bear the fruits of that transformation and our lives are ones of thanksgiving for what God has done.

 

Secondly I like Robinson typology of congregations and agree that the small church as club or clan is the hardest to transform.  I think this is because pastors stay a short time and they are not trusted to be around while the old family will there.  But I am wondering if anyone has any experience in transforming any of the churches they have served. 

 

Finally and sort of a continuation of first comment I wonder if purpose if the right focus for ecclesiology.  I wonder if he picked this up from Rick Warren, "Purpose Driven Church"?  I wonder if being is not the primary focus for ecclesiology.  Just wondering.  Herb 

[Jim Gorman]

Nice start Herb.  Vintage Herb Davis.  I hope you use the line "We didn't come to hear about a beheading" in the title in the bulletin.

 

Good stuff.

 

Jim

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[John Cedarleaf]

> Rick,
Thanks for your comments. As an "old Leftie", like you, I couldn't agree
more. I've spent my whole ministry, working with "business folks" and
simple caricatures don't fit. Many are thoughtful, intelligent and
concerned with issues more than the bottom line. Yes, there is an
anti-business in many who draft resolutions for General Synod and also
for Conference annual meetings etc. Part of it is an ideological stance
on their part into which they fit everything. There may be theological
and biblical cover, but let's be honest, much is ideology. Your earlier
comments on Christ as the center of our life fit here, too. Many on the
left and the right need to remember this.

John
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard L. Floyd
> rfl...@berkshire.rr.com <mailto:rfl...@berkshire.rr.com>
>
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2009, at 7:48 AM, Bct...@aol.com <mailto:Bct...@aol.com>

>> rfl...@berkshire.rr.com <mailto:rfl...@berkshire.rr.com>
>>
>>
>

[herb.davis]

Dear Rick, John, Jane, Jim and others, It's a slow day and my vacation is
delayed so I am hanging around and wanted to keep the discussion going. I
think I agree with John and Rick on the UCC being liberal at the top and
conservative in the middle. I think that most economic resolution are
clergy driven but the laity have absences themselves from the process for a
couple of reason and are often dismayed by the result.

1. Clergy who believe General synod and Annual Meeting resolutions are
important social witness (talking the talk) know the process, have the time,
and believe they are doing something important. They have also captured the
Gospel language so it reflects a "preference for the poor" style.

2. The laity, especial corp. leaders, small business people, capitalist by
enlarge do not take our resolution very serious, do not see them as
important social witness (more an irritation), do not understand the process
or have the time and do not have the language, images, stories that relate
the Gospel in modern economic terms.

3. The result is often economic pronouncements that reflect what Rick said,
simplistic, etc.
They could be enriched if there was real participation on the part of
business laity. If the laity recovered their voice, the priesthood of all
believers status and if the clergy honored the laity public witness as being
as important the clergy's Word and Sacrament ministry. Laity ministry is
primarily the witness in the world. The clergy's primary ministry is to the
church to equip the saints for ministry. (Gabe will remember the old Laity
Project)

4. I was part of a Business/Clergy study group with Max Stackhouse in the
late 80's in response to a General Synod resolution on economics that was
influenced by Prof. Meeks at Eden, a strong voice for the poor and labor.
Max was all ready trying to equip the saints for ministry, to give voice to
business leaders so they could witness for Christ both to the church and in
the world. He had a wonderful way of using Biblical images, business
practices, and already globalization realities to give language to the laity
and maybe to the church. This was a transforming experience. I never gave
up my pro union stance but was enriched by issues that business raised. I
would hope that our next economic resolution would see the influence of both
Profs Meeks and Stackhouse and be helpful to the faithful in this time when
economy is so critical. Peace, Herb

[Jim Gorman]

I was on that study group that you refer to.  Doug Meeks, Fred Herzog, Roger Shinn, two economists, one liberal the other moderate.  Our first meeting was at Eden Seminary and Max was there.  That's when I first met him.  I think it was 1976.  Doug Meeks said that we should have more representation from women and minorities and that we looked a bit too "elitist."  I remember Max saying something like, "perhaps it's time for a group such as this to be frankly elitist."  Meeks just shook his head and said, "Max, perhaps there's another way to say that."

Then that marvelous smile...

For some reason, Max didn't join us on that national working group.

This group was honchoed by Paul Kittlaus and we met mostly in DC when Paul was with the social action office stationed there.  Then several times in New York.  I remember a funny moment when someone asked a question about the constitution and did anyone have a copy?  Roger Shinn said that he did and he immediately reached into his brief case and pulled out a copy of the Constitution of the United States.  The person asking the question said, "No, I meant the UCC Constitution."  Roger smiled and said, "Oh, you mean THE constitution."

To the point you all have been making about businesses and corporate leaders, we should note that Max doesn't let them off the hook either.  The point he struggles to make about the role of theology in globalization is too often ignored or misunderstood by economists and business folks as well as liberal theologians.

Jim

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[herb.davis]

Jim,  Thanks for the note on the study group.  I didn't realized Max was invited.  I like the elitist line.  I agree Max doesn't leave the economist off the hook.  He really takes the Gospel and the Theological task,  the Church and the Reformed tradition for real and I think wants the economist to be able to hear a voice that is often missing.  Peace, Herb  

 

[Max]

Dear friends discussing globalization.
Gabe told me to jump into this group since my name has been mentioned
a couple of times. I did not know how to find this discussion, so
Rick told me where and how to look for these posts. It is my first
excursion into group blogs. I would like to make a couple of points.
The main focus of my research and writing on economic life and on
globalization is that economic dynamics are not autonomous. Herb is
right in thinking that I try to see what theology, and more broadly,
religion, has to offer to the understanding of economics -- and I
think it is a lot although it is indirect. My convictions come out my
experience working for the old Board of World Ministries, which sent
me to India, S-E Asia, the Pacific Islands, and I later represented
Princeton Seminary at conferences and symposia in China, Korea, and
Latin America. The economies in each area have some things in common,
such as whether people have little or much, they want more, and in all
contexts the laws of supply and demand operate. But, what people want
more of and why they want what they want, and what they are able to
supply and what they demand for what reasons are quite different.
These things differ according to their view of and experiences in
family life, political power, legal systems, educational
opportunities, medical conditions and technological capabilities. In
other words, economics is less an independent cause in social
stability or change, than a result of the cultural and civilizational
fabric. And, here is the main point, these are all deeply influenced
by the dominant religion as shaped by the professional leaders of that
religion -- the clergy, intellectuals, theologians, and charismatic
leaders who appeal to the core of the faith and relate it to the
social realities the civilization faces. Under the influence of the
secularization hypothesis, religion is a by-product of economic (and
psychological) factors. The view I have come to turns this around and
puts the economic question in a larger comparative civilizational
context. It also puts the ongoing debate about whether we should have
a more socialist or a more capitalist economic system, for both sides
of these debates presume that economics is the basic force in human
relations and social life, and is either more or less just, defined by
one or the other economic ideology.. On one side justice is defined
as equality by political policy, on the other side as freedom under
legal guarantees of access and opportunity -- now modified into a
little more or a little less social democracy or democartic
capitalism.
What this has to do with globalization is that globalization is a
world-wide civilizational change that involves the wide-spread
adoption of patterns of family life, political order, legal
definitions, educational patterns and medical and communication
technologies that were historically formed by Christian theological
influences. That is now making economic globalization possible and in
some cases necessary, although the massive transition leaves the
playing field open to corruption, exploitation, and high risk
behaviors -- none of which are new and specific to globalization.. I
think contemporary Christians should baptize globalization, washing it
of its sins and set it on the paths of righteousness and developing a
theology of globalization that can guide it in our post-nationalistic
world toward the New Jerusalem to which all peoples can bring their
gifts.
Theology is the clue to the understanding and guidance of
globalization.
In Christ,
Max

[Richard Floyd]

Welcome Max,

Great to have you in this conversation, and thank you for your
helpful summary of your views in this rich post, and the sermonic
passion of your conclusion.

Can you tell the rest of us which of your books in the God and
Globalization series is the best place to start?

Also, Scott Paeth is in this discussion, and I would recommend to the
egroup your chapter in his book on Christology in the UCC, “Who Do
You Say That I Am?”

I reviewed it last spring in the Confessing Christ newsletter, Joy in
the Word, available on-line at our CC site at:

http://confessingchrist.net/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=XDCRGkoEeVA%3d&tabid=59&mid=403

In your essay you suggest that the three-fold office of Christ as
Prophet, Priest and King is a useful resource for globalization in
that the prophetic dimension has historically been empowering to the
ministry of the laity in Protestantism. Gabe Fackre and Lee Barrett,
both from Confessing Christ, also utilize the three-fold office in
their essays in Scott's book.

I hope you will follow this thread back, and comment on anything that
strikes you.

Rick

Richard Floyd
rfl...@berkshire.rr.com

[Max]

Rick, Thanks for your welcome, and I did follow the trail to your
fine review of Scott's book. Very helpful and accurate.
As to your question about which of my books in the series God and
Globalization to recommend, I would say Vol. 1, Globalization and the
Powers of the Common Life (newly out in paperback), and Vol. 4, Grace
and Globalization, which has a summary of key elements of Vol. 2 & 3,
and then my reconstructive theology for a global era. I have gotten
some good reviews from religiously alert economists and social
scientists, but few of them are from pastors or theologians.
Thanks for asking.
Max

On Jul 1, 10:44 am, Richard Floyd <rfl...@berkshire.rr.com> wrote:
> Welcome Max,
>
> Great to have you in this conversation,  and thank you for your  
> helpful summary of your views in this rich post, and the sermonic  
> passion of your conclusion.
>
> Can you tell the rest of us which of your books in the God and  
> Globalization series is the best place to start?
>
> Also, Scott Paeth is in this discussion, and I would recommend to the  
> egroup your chapter in his book  on Christology in the UCC, “Who Do  
> You Say That I Am?”
>
> I reviewed it last spring in the Confessing Christ newsletter, Joy in  
> the Word, available on-line at our CC site at:
>

> http://confessingchrist.net/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=XDCRGkoEeVA%3d&...

[Willis E. Elliott]

Jane

 

What?  IBM 30 years, & still fulltime while working on a theology PhD!  I guessed your age as 29!  So you're 29 because I said so: take it as a compliment:

you have the eager mind of

a 29-year-old, or maybe

19, or maybe

9.  Yes, 9 would be best for your God-given curiosity.

 

And thanks for putting on Open Forum two more Thinksheets.  So much thread-competition right now: Robinson, globalization,....  But maybe we'll have some responses.

 

An IBM story: Many years ago, 1:1 in his livingroom, I proposed to the IBM CEO that IBM have on its board, for the widest view, a theologian (though not me: I was happy with my deanship at NYTSeminary).  We'd been friends for years (chatting as commuters to Manhattan, & as fellow-congregants) & he could not have been more polite when he said, "I've always gone to Sunday school: isn't that enough?"  (Shortly thereafter, IBM made what seemed to me a dumb decision: to stay out of PC.  [No tight theology-implication.])

 

Grace and peace--

Willis

----- Original Message -----

From: Bct...@aol.com

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 6:48 AM

Subject: Re: Globalization, economics, theology, and people in the church

[Richard Floyd]

Max,

I think this is an important topic and I'm hoping we can get the
discussion going again here. I will order the relevant books, and
maybe even review the newest one, since I have a long-standing
tradition of doing that going back to my days as a book reviewer for
the then excellent, and now diminished, Berkshire Eagle.

In the meantime I have taken the liberty of putting up your good
summary post on my blog. You can see it at: http://richardlfloyd.blogspot.com/2009/07/max-l-stackhouse-on-god-and.html

Best,

Rick

Richard Floyd
rfl...@berkshire.rr.com

[Gabe]

Rick,

Just returned from being out of the loop for a week and "Amen" your
welcome of Max and suggestions about globalization discussion here. It
converged with what I think was proposed at the General Synod--that
there be a Church-wide conversation on this subject. (Perhaps someone
who was at the Synod can report here what transpired in the discussion
of the resolution, the result of the vote, etc.) A jumping off point
for the dialog could be a reading of Max's volume 4, after we finish
the Robinson book.

I don't think those of us reading Robinson have done much responding
to Jane's introduction to the chapter of the church. Mea culpa. I
think it is an attachment. Very important chapter and timely. Will get
to it.

Any folk who were present at General Synod might help us all by giving
some impressions about what transpired. Hope Chris sold a lot of his
"God is Still Laughing" books, that the resolution on ecumenism sailed
through, that we have a new president who will embody Rupert
Meldinius' famous phrase ( slightly altered to fit our situation) "In
essentials unity, in perspectives diversity, in all things charity,"
that the Confessing Christ booth was a smashing success....

--Gabe

On Jul 1, 10:44 am, Richard Floyd <rfl...@berkshire.rr.com> wrote:

> Welcome Max,
>
> Great to have you in this conversation,  and thank you for your  
> helpful summary of your views in this rich post, and the sermonic  
> passion of your conclusion.
>
> Can you tell the rest of us which of your books in the God and  
> Globalization series is the best place to start?
>
> Also, Scott Paeth is in this discussion, and I would recommend to the  

> group your chapter in his book  on Christology in the UCC, “Who Do  
> You Say That I Am?”
>
> I reviewed it last spring in the Confessing Christ newsletter, Joy in  

> the Word, available on-line at our CC site....
>
>

[Jim Gorman]

I'm away for the July 4 weekend in colorado and will like to return to this conversation when I get back to books and  other files.

I have read Grace and Globalization and Max's suggestion to read it is a good one.  It does have a summary of the first three books in the series.  Max even suggests to readers who have read the first three books to skip that section where the summary of the themes occurs.

I still have a question about the definition of faith and theology viz. Bush's admixture of that into the political/public sphere.  What is it about Max's defnition that makes Bush's use of faith in politics inauthentic (at the very least).  It is the first of his "worries" as I remember (liberal theology's tending toward a secularist view of economics is his third "worry" I think.

Jim

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[fcba%40comcast.net]

Any folk who were present at General Synod might help us all by giving
some impressions about what transpired. Hope Chris sold a lot of his
"God is Still Laughing" books, that the resolution on ecumenism sailed
through, that we have a new president who will embody Rupert
Meldinius' famous phrase ( slightly altered to fit our situation) "In
essentials unity, in perspectives diversity, in all things charity,"
that the Confessing Christ booth was a smashing success....

                              --Gabe

 

Gabe,

 

Yes, I did sell a lot of GISL books and BBZ even said that she would use God Is Still laughing V: The UCC Statement of Faith Catechism Joke Book in her polity class!!! (She also bought two Mercersburg theology texts from me.)  

 

As for the ecumenism resolution Lee spoke for it and it passed unanimously!!!

Wendy saw Jim Wallis and didn't see Barbra Brown Taylor because the venue was mistakenly too small. I was a working man prostituting theology to jokes. GS is great for reconnecting with people one has not seen and I reconnected with people I had not seen for almost 30 years!!

 

Both Wendy and I thought that John Thomas preached well on Sunday. Clyde J. Steckel gave a good lecture at the PRISM/STREAMS luncheon.

 

The Single Governace resolution passed though there was some fight on it. Others will be able to give you more on what actually passed and what compromises worked. It is my assumption that this means that in four years we should have the single body ruling the UCC. If we waste one quarter of a million dollars having the four boards then it appears that we will still waster one million dollars until this changes but I am not in on the discussion.

 

We did not get to hear Geoffrey Black. Being an exhibitor (not an "exhibitionist") takes a lot of time. Wendy and I did eat with both Lee Barrett and Beth Nordbick in the evening and we had a wonderfully long discussion on the concepts of "introversion/extroversion." My introverted wife might even go again merely to converse with those two great people.

 

Chris Anderson

 

 

 

 

[Willis E. Elliott]

Gabe

My vote for discussing Max 4. I've ordered it.

Grace and peace--
Willis

[Bct...@aol.com]

Gabe, Rick, Jim, Willis, Max, Scott, Herb, Chris, and others,

 

I would also welcome reading Max's vol. 4, Globalization and Grace, together.  I ordered and received both of the volumes Max recommended, and I read his chapter and Scott's introduction in the book Scott edited, Who Do You Say That I Am?  I also read Rick's review of Scott's book. 

 

I've had Scott's book for a couple of years and have never gotten beyond his intro, which I have now read for the fourth time!  But now that I am getting acquainted in this Open Forum with a couple of the other authors, I will definitely read the book this summer.

 

I will also post a summary of Ch. 10 of Robinson's book, because it is a "part two" to Ch. 9.  After that, I will turn that discussion group back to Chris!  Many thanks to Herb for responding to my summary of Ch. 9. I do hope the others will respond.  If you need the attachment with my summary in it, please let me know.

Jane

________________________________________________________________________________

[Scott Paeth]

Jane,

Well, you may be the only person besides me to have read that intro 4 times, so I'll take that as a compliment!

I'm in Israel right now doing a study tour with Brandeis University's Schusterman Center for Israel Studies. It's been fascinating, and relates to issues of both Globalization and General Synod Resolutions. When I return from my trip, I'd be happy to make a report to the group.

Scott

[fcba%40comcast.net]

I will also post a summary of Ch. 10 of Robinson's book, because it is a "part two" to Ch. 9.  After that, I will turn that discussion group back to Chris! 

Jane

 

 

Jane,

 

I am only back for a moment but am on my way to Craigville and some more time with my bride. No hurry about getting that job back again. I liked how you summarized Robinson and if I had time I'd comment.

 

Chris Anderson

[Gabe]

Robinson readers and Christ/Jane leaders,

A couple of comments on Chapt 9, ecclesiology, Part 1.

Tony likes typologies.( So do I.) He should have identified the source
of the first one,the church as People of God, Body of Christ, Temple
of the Holy Spirit. This is right out of the World Council of
Churches' study, still current, an earlier version called THE NATURE
AND PURPOSE OF THE CHURCH, later changed to THE NATURE AND MISSION OF
THE CHURCH (adding a fourth, the Church as Koinonia/Communion). Also
there is much rich material in both study books that could have been
used or cited. For all that, it is a helpful taxonomy with its
trinitarian framework.

The second typology developed from Kirk Hadaway? Yes, a sociologist's
take on types of congregations--clan, charismatic leader, corporation.
incarnational community. OK. (I like the one by an earlier team of UCC
sociologists--Vic Obenhaus and Yosh Fukamaya better, if anyone is
interested)

But how about a little theology here? If one begins with a biblical
profile of a congregation, we'd take a look at Acts 2-4, the first
one. Seen through an ecumenical lens--let's say, again, a World
Council of Church's earlier study--the case might be made that there
are four gifts of the Spirit poured out on that congregation: kerygma,
diakonia, leitourgia, koinonia. Note might be taken that these
correspond almost exactly to Dulles' famous "models of the
church." (He had 5, but the 5th was the institutionalization of the
other four, an apple among the oranges). Also there is a rough
correlation between the classical "attributes of the church'-- unity,
sanctity,, apostolicity and catholicity. And, following Tony's use of
a typology to make congregations wary of reductionism while
celebrating the good features of a given type, each of these four
describes tendencies of a given congregation, even larger ecclesial
entities such as denominations or traditions, the counsel being to
strive, by grace, toward a "full-orbed":) ecclesial reality. They also
feed into the next chapter on sacraments and ministry.

--Gabe

[Andy Lang]

Gabe, I wasn't on the floor often ... mostly working in the exhibition space and leading workshops ... but I heard (as James reported) that the single governance debate on the floor was, for the most part, civil.

 

Although I can't find a reference in the ucc.org coverage, I assume the resolution on ecumenical relations passed: it was considered non-controversial and was reported directly to the floor by Executive Council without referral to committee. It probably passed by acclamation without debate, so easy for the ucc.org reporters to miss.

 

I attended the Council on Ecumenism dinner: the room was packed, many conference ministers were there, and Lydia Veliko did a great job as MC. BBZ was honored with the biennial ecumenism award and Michael Kinnamon did a masterful job getting the post-dinner audienced fired up about ... ecumenism.

 

BBZ talked with me briefly about her current focus on the "Christian" tradition. She feels it's a neglected part of our history (which of course is true) but can yield valuable insights as the UCC continues its quest for inclusivity. She wonders if this might be a worthy subject for a future Craigville Colloquy--if it could be given an ecumenical scope.

 

Deborah Schueneman took care of our booth, which was well supplied with literature, "Jesus is Lord" buttons, and Confessing Christ pens (in the bright red color of Stillspeaking). I hope she'll have time to share her impressions here. It might be a good idea to have a laptop there at future Synods so we can demonstrate the CC website and discussion group -- and perhaps even sign people up while we have their attention. Nothing like hindsight!

 

A colleague on national staff (wearing the "Jesus is Lord" button) came up to me and said how grateful she was for Confessing Christ.

 

Beth Nordbeck, Lee Barrett and Clyde Steckel spent many hours at the Prism table--and I saw many conversations.

 

The reception for the UCC Writers Group -- which produces the "Stillspeaking Daily Devotional" and is convened by Tony Robinson -- was absolutely packed. And while they were meeting at Synod, the writers agreed to launch a daily Twitter "tweet" -- a very compressed form of the Devotional that can easily be accessed on mobile devices. You can subscribe ("follow" in Twitterese) at http://twitter.com/stillspeaking. You might want to tell younger people in your congregations about it! I'd appreciate their feedback.

 

One disappointing note: there was in theory a "chapel" at Synod (as there has been at Synods past): a room had been reserved, but it was empty: no cross, no Bible, just an empty meeting room. And, apparently, there was no chaplain! A very busy colleague took time to pray with two delegates who needed help; there was no chaplain to refer them to.

 

It's understandable that with all of the pressures leading up to a General Synod, a detail like this could be mislaid. But I'm sure volunteers would be welcome: OCC has taken responsibility for staffing the chapel in past Synods, and they've done a good job. I'm wondering if this could be a worthy project for Confessing Christ in future Synods, perhaps in partnership with OCC. We could create an inviting "safe space" for delegates and visitors, and perhaps offer brief, simple services using the orders for Morning and Evening Prayer in The New Century Hymnal. (Yes, we _do_ have a Daily Office in the UCC!) Plenty of time to talk about this.

 

Andy
 

Andy Lang
Cleveland, OH
216-926-6262
lang...@sbcglobal.net
http://i.UCC.org
http://langohio.blogspot.com

---

From: Gabe <gfa...@comcast.net>
To: Confessing Christ Open Forum <Confessi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 9:23:33 AM

Subject: Re: Globalization, General Synod, Robinson, etc..

[The Right Rev'd Richard Hammond Price, OCC, Abbot, Order of Corpus Christi]

Andy:

The Order of Corpus Christi has never staffed a chapel at General Synod.  We have been "allowed" to use the space for celebrations of Holy Eucharist which have be well attended and appreciated.  The Order was not present in Grand Rapids this year as the result of a decision to use our funds for a project which is of critical importance to the expansion of our witness and mission within  the various Reformed and Lutheran traditions which make up the Order's membership.

Several years ago, I made an offer to have the Order involved in being responsible for some kind of "sacred space" at Synod which could be used for private meditation, forms of daily prayer, and celebrations of Eucharist which reflect the variety of the traditions of the United Church of Christ.  However, I was told that it would not be possible since the chapel was the responsibility of the host conference.  

I would renew the offer for 2011 in Tampa, but I have no idea who to contact.  Perhaps you could advise me in this matter.

+Richard

[Gabe]

Andy,

Thanks much for the interesting take on the Synod and associated
events. Now...on to Craigville Colloquy 26 next week :)

--Gabe

On Jul 6, 11:00 am, Andy Lang <lango...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Gabe, I wasn't on the floor often ... mostly working in the exhibition space and leading workshops ... but I heard (as James reported) that the single governance debate on the floor was, for the most part, civil.
>
> Although I can't find a reference in the ucc.org coverage, I assume the resolution on ecumenical relations passed: it was considered non-controversial and was reported directly to the floor by Executive Council without referral to committee. It probably passed by acclamation without debate, so easy for the ucc.org reporters to miss.
>
> I attended the Council on Ecumenism dinner: the room was packed, many conference ministers were there, and Lydia Veliko did a great job as MC. BBZ was honored with the biennial ecumenism award and Michael Kinnamon did a masterful job getting the post-dinner audienced fired up about ... ecumenism.
>
> BBZ talked with me briefly about her current focus on the "Christian" tradition. She feels it's a neglected part of our history (which of course is true) but can yield valuable insights as the UCC continues its quest for inclusivity. She wonders if this might be a worthy subject for a future Craigville Colloquy--if it could be given an ecumenical scope.
>
> Deborah Schueneman took care of our booth, which was well supplied with literature, "Jesus is Lord" buttons, and Confessing Christ pens (in the bright red color of Stillspeaking). I hope she'll have time to share her impressions here. It might be a good idea to have a laptop there at future Synods so we can demonstrate the CC website and discussion group -- and perhaps even sign people up while we have their attention. Nothing like hindsight!
>
> A colleague on national staff (wearing the "Jesus is Lord" button) came up to me and said how grateful she was for Confessing Christ.
>
> Beth Nordbeck, Lee Barrett and Clyde Steckel spent many hours at the Prism table--and I saw many conversations.
>

> The reception for the UCC Writers Group -- which produces the "Stillspeaking Daily Devotional" and is convened by Tony Robinson -- was absolutely packed. And while they were meeting at Synod, the writers agreed to launch a daily Twitter "tweet" -- a very compressed form of the Devotional that can easily be accessed on mobile devices. You can subscribe ("follow" in Twitterese) athttp://twitter.com/stillspeaking. You might want to tell younger people in your congregations about it! I'd appreciate their feedback.

>
> One disappointing note: there was in theory a "chapel" at Synod (as there has been at Synods past): a room had been reserved, but it was empty: no cross, no Bible, just an empty meeting room. And, apparently, there was no chaplain! A very busy colleague took time to pray with two delegates who needed help; there was no chaplain to refer them to.
>
> It's understandable that with all of the pressures leading up to a General Synod, a detail like this could be mislaid. But I'm sure volunteers would be welcome: OCC has taken responsibility for staffing the chapel in past Synods, and they've done a good job. I'm wondering if this could be a worthy project for Confessing Christ in future Synods, perhaps in partnership with OCC. We could create an inviting "safe space" for delegates and visitors, and perhaps offer brief, simple services using the orders for Morning and Evening Prayer in The New Century Hymnal. (Yes, we _do_ have a Daily Office in the UCC!) Plenty of time to talk about this.
>
> Andy
>  Andy Lang
> Cleveland, OH216-926-6262

> lango...@sbcglobal.nethttp://i.UCC.orghttp://langohio.blogspot.com
>
> ________________________________
> From: Gabe <gfac...@comcast.net>

[stmatt...@aol.com]

You may recall that early this year Acton Congregtional Church and Confessing Christ hosted a conference on God, Globalization and Ministry Today. For those of you who are interested in the globlaization thread,  I invite you to check out www.actonc.org.  We recorded Max's morning and afternoon lectures. Scroll down the page and you'll see them. Along with an overview of his thesis, he offers observations on the global economic meltdown and the many scandals exposed. I think you'll find that these lectures demonstrate the theory and praxis that Max has in mind.  In Christ, Andy 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Floyd <rfl...@berkshire.rr.com>
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:42 am
Subject: Re: Globalization, economics, theology, and people in the church

>> passion of your conclusion.&nb sp;

>> 
>> Can you tell the rest of us which of your books in the God and 
>> Globalization series is the best place to start? 
>> 
>> Also, Scott Paeth is in this discussion, and I would recommend to the 
>> egroup your chapter in his book on Christology in the UCC, “Who Do 
>> You Say That I Am?” 
>> 
>> I reviewed it last spring in the Confessing Christ newsletter, Joy in 
>> the Word, available on-line at our CC site at: 
>> 
>> http://confessingchrist.net/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=XDCRGkoEeVA>> %3d&... 
>> 
>> In your essay you suggest that the three-fold office of Christ as 
>> Prophet, Priest and King is a useful resource for globalization in 
>> that the prophetic dimension has historically been empowering to the 
>> ministry of the laity in Protestantism. Gabe Fackre and Lee Barrett, 
>> both from Confessing Christ, also utilize the three-fold office in 
>> their essays in Scott's book. 
>> 
>> I hope you will follow this thread back, and comment on anything that 
>> strikes you. 
>> 
>> Rick 
>> 
>> Richard Floyd 
>> rfl...@berkshire.rr.com 
>> 

&g t;> On Jul 1, 2009, at 8:58 AM, Max wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Dear friends discussing globalization. 
>>> Gabe told me to jump into this group since my name has been >>> mentioned 
>>> a couple of times. I did not know how to find this discussion, so 
>>> Rick told me where and how to look for these posts. It is my first 
>>> excursion into group blogs. I would like to make a couple of >>> points. 
>>> The main focus of my research and writing on economic life and on 
>>> globalization is that economic dynamics are not autonomous. Herb is 
>>> right in thinking that I try to see what theology, and more broadly, 
>>> religion, has to offer to the understanding of economics -- and I 
>>> think it is a lot although it is indirect. My convictions come >>> out my 
>>> experience working for the old Board of World Ministries, which sent 
>>> me to India, S-E Asia, the Pacific Islands, and I later represented 
>>> Princeton Seminary at conferences and symposia in China, Korea, and 
>>> Latin America. The economies in each area have some things in >>> common, 
>>> such as whether people have little or much, they want more, and in >>> all 

>>> contexts the laws of supply and demand operate. But, what people20>>> want 

---

Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets!

[Jim Gorman]

Thanks so much Matt!  I wish that this was the presentation he made at Lakeland some weeks ago. 

 

Jim

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[Jim Gorman]

I have listened to the morning lecture and I find myself deeply grateful for Max's insights.  As I said, I wish THIS lecture had been given to our friends from Honduras and Germany at Lakeland College in early June.  We were all looking for some response to the global crisis and Max does that brilliantly, in my view, in these two lectures.

 

For those who care, I've converted these files to iTunes and I'm willing to share them in that format.  I find that more convenient for sitting and taking notes. 

 

I love the Robertson notion of "Glocal" as a combination of globalization and local which is going on in our time.

 

Jim

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[Gabe]

Jim,

Interested in your response. I attended the Acton/Confessing Christ
event that Max led and had a similar appreciative reaction. The panel
and discussion were also instructive, as was the facilitation of the
event by Andy Armstrong (not Matt).


--Gabe

On Jul 8, 12:19 am, Jim Gorman <jamesrgor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have listened to the morning lecture and I find myself deeply grateful for

> Max's insights.  As I said, I wish *THIS* lecture had been given to our

> friends from Honduras and Germany at Lakeland College in early June.  We
> were all looking for some response to the global crisis and Max does that
> brilliantly, in my view, in these two lectures.
>
> For those who care, I've converted these files to iTunes and I'm willing
> to share them in that format.  I find that more convenient for sitting
> and taking notes.
>
> I love the Robertson notion of "Glocal" as a combination of globalization
> and local which is going on in our time.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Jim Gorman <jamesrgor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks so much Matt!  I wish that this was the presentation he made at
> > Lakeland some weeks ago.
>
> > Jim
>

> >   On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:57 PM, <stmattschu...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> You may recall that early this year Acton Congregtional Church and
> >> Confessing Christ hosted a conference on God, Globalization and Ministry
> >> Today. For those of you who are interested in the globlaization thread,  I

> >> invite you to check outwww.actonc.org.  We recorded Max's morning and

> >> afternoon lectures. Scroll down the page and you'll see them. Along with an
> >> overview of his thesis, he offers observations on the global economic
> >> meltdown and the many scandals exposed. I think you'll find that these
> >> lectures demonstrate the theory and praxis that Max has in mind.  In
> >> Christ, Andy
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Richard Floyd <rfl...@berkshire.rr.com>
> >> To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
> >> Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:42 am
> >> Subject: Re: Globalization, economics, theology, and people in the church
>
> >>   Max,
>
> >> I think this is an important topic and I'm hoping we can get the
> >> discussion going again here. I will order the relevant books, and maybe even
> >> review the newest one, since I have a long-standing tradition of doing that
> >> going back to my days as a book reviewer for the then excellent, and now
> >> diminished, Berkshire Eagle.
>
> >> In the meantime I have taken the liberty of putting up your good summary
> >> post on my blog. You can see it at :

> >>http://richardlfloyd.blogspot.com/2009/07/max-l-stackhouse-on-god-and...

> >> ------------------------------

> >> Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you

> >> trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets<http://www.moviefone.com/summer-movies?ncid=emlweusmovi00000004>
> >> !
>
> > --
> >www.uccwaukesha.org
>
> --www.uccwaukesha.org

[Jean Easland]

Gabe: Our Daughter-in Law works for the South Dakota Economic Development
Corp. which makes low interest start up loan to S.D. enterprises. Three
years ago a beef kill plant was built in Aberdeen. It employs 600 people but
the tight credit situation put them near bankruptcy. An individual Chinese
citizen bought the plant. In the interview he assured Kim that what ever it
takes, "I fix it, money no problem". America is for sale and it is being
sold. The new wind generating plant at Wessington Springs is owned by
someone for Australia. In Pierre S.D. a new computer soft ware company has
moved to town and brought with it their employees, all from south India!
They want their own restaurant and Hindu place to worship. Big money is
continuing to force small producers off the land. From this vantage point
globalization looks like a take over by elite wealth. The western(as in cows
horses, and such) is all but dead. To my knowledge the wider Church has
nothing to say to this "culture". You watch some foreign entity will end up
with Ted Turners 147,000 acres here. Agriculture is still the basis of all
cultures - do you know of one that does not need to eat? Blessings from the
wide but no longer open spaces------Local Roger

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabe" <gfa...@comcast.net>

To: "Confessing Christ Open Forum" <Confessi...@googlegroups.com>

[Jim Gorman]

Thanks Gabe.  I knew that!  Slip because he still has St. Matts in his email address!

Jim

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[stmatt...@aol.com]

Hi Jim, 
    Your posts always bring to mind the colloquy we enjoyed with Douglas John Hall on the shores of Lake Erie too long ago. Good to hear from you. I'm glad you checked out the lectures and found them helpful. Though I did not hear Max's lecture in Lakeland, I think that having a predominately lay audience with a panel of professionals from the fields of law, business, healthcare and economics, helped Max focus on the "gist" of his project (which btw was his assignment).   In Christ, Andy

PS I keep my stmatts address for confessing christ list serve. It helps simplify.   

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Gorman <jamesr...@gmail.com>
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2009 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: Globalization, economics, theology, and people in the church

Thanks so much Matt!  I wish that this was the presentation he made at Lakeland some weeks ago. 

 

Jim

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:57 PM, <stmatt...@aol.com> wrote:

You may recall that early this year Acton Congregtional Church and Confessing Christ hosted a conference on God, Globalization and Ministry Toda y. For those of you who are interested in the globlaization thread,  I invite you to check out www.actonc.org.  We recorded Max's morning and afternoon lectures. Scroll down the page and you'll see them. Along with an overview of his thesis, he offers observations on the global economic meltdown and the many scandals exposed. I think you'll find that these lectures demonstrate the theory and praxis that Max has in mind.  In Christ, Andy 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Floyd <rfl...@berkshire.rr.com>
To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 11:42 am
Subject: Re: Globalization, economics, theology, and people in the church

Max, 
 
I think this is an important topic and I'm hoping we can get the discussion going again here. I will order the relevant books, and maybe even review the newest one, since I have a long-standing tradition of doing that going back to my days as a book reviewer for the then excellent, and now diminished, Berkshire Eagle. 
 

In the meantime I have taken the liberty of putting up your good summary post on my=2 0blog. You can see it at : http://richardlfloyd.blogspot.com/2009/07/max-l-stackhouse-on-god-and.html 

 
Best, 
 
Rick 
 
 
Richard Floyd 
rfl...@berkshire.rr.com 
 
 
On Jul 1, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Max wrote: 
 
> 
> Rick, Thanks for your welcome, and I did follow the trail to your 
> fine review of Scott's book. Very helpful and accurate. 
> As to your question about which of my books in the series God and 
> Globalization to recommend, I would say Vol. 1, Globalization and the 
> Powers of the Common Life (newly out in paperback), and Vol. 4, Grace 
> and Globalization, which has a summary of key elements of Vol. 2 & 3, 
> and then my reconstructive theology for a global era. I have gotten 
> some good reviews from religiously alert economists and social 
> scientists, but few of them are from pastors or theologians. 
> Thanks for asking. 
> Max 
> 
> On Jul 1, 10:44 am, Richard Floyd <rfl...@berkshire.rr.com> wrote: 
>> Welcome Max, 
>> 
>> Great to have you in this conversation, and thank you for your 
>> helpful summary of your views in this rich post, and the sermonic 

< /div> >> passion of your conclusion.&nb sp;

>>> such as whether people have little or much, they want more, and i n >>> all 

>>> contexts the laws of supply and demand operate. But, what people20>>> want 

>>> more of and why they want what they want, and what they are able to 
>>> supply and what they demand for what reasons are quite different. 
>>> These things differ according to their view of and experiences in 
>>> family life, political power, legal systems, educational 
>>> opportunities, medical conditions and technological capabilities. >>> In 
>>> other words, economics is less an independent cause in social 
>>> stability or change, than a result of the cultural and >>> civilizational 
>>> fabric. And, here is the main point, these are all deeply >>> influenced 
>>> by the dominant religion as shaped by the professional leaders of >>> that 
>>> religion -- the clergy, intellectuals, theologians, and charismatic 
>>> leaders who appeal to the core of the faith and relate it to the 
>>> social realities the civilization faces. Under the influence of the 
>>> secularization hypothesis, religion is a by-product of economic (and 
>>> psychological) factors. The view I have come to turns this around >>> and 
>>> puts the economic question in a larger comparative civilizational 

>>> context. It al so puts the ongoing debate about whether we should >>> have 

>>> a more socialist or a more capitalist economic system, for both >> > sides 
>>> of these debates presume that economics is the basic force in human 
>>> relations and social life, and is either more or less just, >>> defined by 
>>> one or the other economic ideology.. On one side justice is defined 
>>> as equality by political policy, on the other side as freedom under 
>>> legal guarantees of access and opportunity -- now modified into a 
>>> little more or a little less social democracy or democartic 
>>> capitalism. 
>>> What this has to do with globalization is that globalization is a 
>>> world-wide civilizational change that involves the wide-spread 
>>> adoption of patterns of family life, political order, legal 
>>> definitions, educational patterns and medical and communication 
>>> technologies that were historically formed by Christian theological 
>>> influences. That is now making economic globalization possible >>> and in 
>>> some cases necessary, although the massive transition leaves the 
>>> playing field open to corruption, exploitation, and high risk 
>>> behaviors -- none of which are new and specific to >>> globalization.. I 

>>> think contemporary Christians shoul d baptize globalization, >>> washing it 

>>> of its sins and set it on the paths of righteousness and >>> developing a 
> >> theology of globalization that can guide it in our post->>> nationalistic 
>>> world toward the New Jerusalem to which all peoples can bring their 
>>> gifts. 
>>> Theology is the clue to the understanding and guidance of 
>>> globalization. 
>>> In Christ, 
>>> Max 
>> 
>>> On Jun 30, 4:24 pm, "herb.davis" <herb.da...@mindspring.com> wrote: 
>>>> Jim, Thanks for the note on the study group. I didn't realized 
>>>> Max was 
>>>> invited. I like the elitist line. I agree Max doesn't leave the 
>>>> economist 
>>>> off the hook. He really takes the Gospel and the Theological 
>>>> task, the 
>>>> Church and the Reformed tradition for real and I think wants the 
>>>> economist 
>>>> to be able to hear a voice that is often missing. Peace, Herb 

---

Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tic kets!

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[Willis E. Elliott]

Thanks for the thumbnail on Synod, Andy.  You made it possible for me easily to imagine myself there.  Especially memorable for me: a national-staff colleague expressing to you her appreciation for Confessing Christ.

 

Grace and peace--

Willis

[Jim Gorman]

I too have fond memories of the shores of Lake Erie, Andy. 

I think that the problem with the lecture at Lakeland (and Rich Christensen might add to or detract from my observations) was that Max's lecture was one of great theological sophistication.  The Germans present, though English speaking, were trained in a slightly different theological idiom.  They got hung up on phrases like "Hermeneutic of suspicion and hermeneutic of trust".  The Hondurans on the other hand spoke no English and the person who had to do the translation was having great difficulty with words like "desacralization."

I wish that the assignment was exactly as he had in Acton.  Max's presentation was theoretical in the extreme which left the listener to fill in the blanks as regards his position on the current crisis.  And, I confess that I filled in all the wrong blanks.  Max's take on the crisis in his presentations at Acton convinced me that we were/are on the same page.

I still think that he leans too far toward "democratic capitalism" and perhaps too far toward "social democracy" but that is not as much to the point as his insistence on a religious/theological/ethical presence in the discussion.

Jim

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[Jim Gorman]

correction:

 

I still think that he leans too far toward "democratic capitalism" and *I* perhaps too far toward "social democracy" but that is not as much to the point as his insistence on a religious/theological/ethical presence in the discussion.

 

 

--
www.uccwaukesha.org

[Willis E. Elliott]

Gabe, you are a delightfully regurgitating typologist!

I forgot Vic & Yosh's typology of the church: can you cough that one up for us?

1

In my ministry, I've made good use of Paul Minear's "Images of the Church" & Avery Dulles' "Models of the Church."  And my participation in NCC/WCC on ecumenical theology-&-worship affected my design of the Morton (Ill.) Church, especially its main worship-area, which came to my mind's eye when you quoted "Temple of the Holy Spirit."  While the phrase's primary reference is to the people, the place where the people worship should reflect what the people do in that place: is the worship-area ("sanctuary" in the broad sense) itself an invitation to worship?  Does it look & feel like (to use another, even more ancient phrase) a house of God?  No awe, no worship.  No worship, no saints.  No saints (& here comes another ancient phrase), no community of saints (*communio sanctorum*).  No community of saints, no church.

2

Religion is primarily something human beings do, viz. WORSHIP.  Theology is about why people do it.  Ecclesiology is about how people do it.  Mission is about what people do together in consequence of having worshiped together.  And the visual center of the entire enterprise is the place where a people regularly worship together.

3

I must highlight LIGHT in the sanctuary.  How important!  The Morton worship-script (which changed eight times, according to the church year) had a lighting code (leastwise, when I was pastor): seated or standing, the worship-leader had/has 17 light-switches.  Public worship is drama, a continuation of the biblical Story.  LIGHT in the Bible is the first thing God spoke into existence.  /  In a lecture Monday  -  "Language: A one-session course in language appreciation"  -  I included (as I'd been asked) a few basic readings in the basic languages of our civilization (Heb/Gk/Lat/Ger/Eng).  All were biblical, & of course one was Gn.1.3: "Let there be Or/Phos/Lux/Licht/Light!" (4th-of-July light-bursts we see from our porch over our small city &, at the same time, strangely less impressive, on television, light-bursts over the Charles River in Boston [with sound-bursts of awe from the crowds]; & from the Hubble, photos of the lights of awesome worlds beyond worlds)  Above all, how awesome is our Lord's utterance, "I am the Light of the world."

4

Sacred spaces.  One's daily devotions are in a sacred space of place and time, as are our sacred memories, as are our prayers for the full-come kingdom of God.  /  All temples, as visualizations of transcendence, are witnesses against materialism.  /  Biblically, the tabernacle-temple metaphor is fluid.  God's tabernacle-temple on earth is metaphoric to, on the "pattern" (Ex.25.9++) of, his temple in heaven (Heb.9.11; Rev.3,12, 11.19, 15.5 [but finally - 21.22 - no temple other than the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb]).  Jesus' physical body is a temple (Jn.2.19, 21), our physical bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit (1Cor.6.18-20), & (3.16-17; 2Cor.6.16; eschatologically, Eph.2.21) Christians collectively are  -  the Church is  -  the temple of the Holy Spirit.

5

Very close in biblical usage are "the temple [Heb. *hecal*] of God" (in which God is Priest & we are devotees) & "the house [Heb. *beth*] of God" (in which God is Host [& Father] & we are guests [& children]).  Indeed, both terms refer to God's "dwelling place [Heb. *ma'on*]," the latter being more intimate (as in the last vs. of the 23rd Ps.).  (Ps.84 poetically plays with the idea of God's habitation: NRSV has "dwelling place / courts / home / altars / house / house.")

6

How, now, in these tough times, is the church as "the Temple of the Holy Spirit," to be God's House of HOSPITALITY?  The early Christians out-hospitalitized (& out-hospitalized) the gospel's competitors: how now welcome the homeless of heart/mind/body?  I'll end this meditation not with programmatic suggestions but with a few musings on God as model for our hosting.

6.1

For 57 years, people approaching the main sanctuary of the Morton church have been confronted with a raised-letters metal plaque whose inscription Loree & I came upon in the narthex of a 12th-c.

church (Boldre, Hampshire, England): "FRIEND, you enter this church not as a stranger, but as a guest of God.  He is your heavenly father.  Come then with joy in your hearts and thanks on your lips into his presence, offering him your love and service.  Be grateful to the strong and loyal men who in the name of Jesus Christ builded this place of worship, and to all who have beautified it and hallowed it with their prayers and praises.  Beseech his blessing on those who love this home of faith as the inspiration of their labor, rejoicing in the power of the Holy Spirit, and may that blessing rest on you, both on your going out and on your coming in."  (I added a few lines on the Morton church's five buildings, from 1832 to 1952, & that "Abraham Lincoln spoke" in the 1850 building.)

6.2

"...not as a stranger but as a guest of God."  From the viewpoint of God and the church, stepping into the church (whose entry is in a huge arch of transparent glass only a few steps off Main Street) transforms strangers into guests, on the pattern of the ancient NearEastern hospitality Abraham showed when, "during the hottest part of the day" he "ran to meet" three strangers (Gn.18.1-2), who became instant guests (in verses 16-22, the three men & the Lord's voice become intermingled: did Abraham "entertain angels without knowing it" [Heb.13.2 NIV: "Do not forget to entertain strangers"])?  As I type this, on the wall behind my computer is a copy of A.Roublev's 15th-c. icon, "The Trinity" (the three, as plainly dressed as Abraham's strangers, inviting the worshiper to come to the table: the composition centers on the food & the opening to come & get it).  Reversal!  The strangers/angels/Trinity are inviting all, all of us strangers beginning with Abraham!  When we enter into the icon (which was Henri Nouwen's favorite, & my copy once was his), we are guests of God.

6.3

In the house of the world, we are briefly God's guests.  In the house of the Church, we are permanently God's guests.  Evangelism is working together with God to eliminate the category of stranger.

7

Gabe, some who are reading this may not know that for you & scores of others, next week is the 26th Craigville Theological Colloquy, this year on "Spirituality and the Holy Spirit: A New Awakening for the Church?"  You will know that I wrote this meditation in light of this theme.

 

Grace and peace--

Willis

 

--- Original Message -----

From: "Gabe" <gfa...@comcast.net>

To: "Confessing Christ Open Forum" <Confessi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:53 PM

Subject: Re: Globalization, General Synod, Robinson, etc..

[Gabe]

Willis,

I don't remember the exact categories. What I do remember is that when
Dot and I wrote UNDER THE STEEPLE in 1958, Yosh told me that our
"clans" related to parts of the church building lcorresponded almost
exactly to their research on the groups found in the congregations
they studied: Pulpit, including the amen clan and lecture hall clan;
the communion table including the altar clan and the table clan; the
classroom including the forum clan and the attendance pin clan;the
fellowship hall including the our gang clan and the strawberry social
clan; the scout room including the handbook clan and the camper clan.

O well.

--Gabe

[Jean Easland]

Gabe: The wheat growers clan is rolling combines across the South Dakota
prairie winter wheat fields (wheat is of the grass family, imported from
Iraq and Iran way back there) it looks like yields vary from very poor to
average and maybe some great. There is always an area of drought somewhere
in SD and this year it is to the northeast of Pierre. Winter wheat is
amazingly drought resistant requiring only a few timely spring rains if the
fall is wet. Winter wheat is a low protein and soft wheat used in cakes,
crackers etc. Breads are made from spring wheat which is high in protein and
gluten which gives bread its body(just a few ag facts for your eating
enjoyment). Rust and fungus from Asia has now invaded our crops so
fungicides are now crucial to production. Asian rust is now a major threat
to soybeans. The dust from China's new deserts mixed with other atmospheric
pollutants are spreading invading diseases to crops all over the world.
There are now 500 new species of marine life in our harbors carried in the
ballast of foreign ships. Globalization has much more far reaching effects
than ever imagined for agriculture. Most commercial fertilizers require the
use of oil and natural gas to produce. China saw the crunch coming and
bought up the entire world supply of potash which is mined and is vital to
long-term commercial fertilizer application. The Chinese can use there
central governments economic power to create market panic in American
markets like they did two years ago with spring wheat which went to $18.00 a
bushel 5 times the normal price. Very few American producers gained from
this but the Chinese made a fortune just playing the Board of Trade. The
search for "clean" food and land will accelerate.Chinese wealth generated by
consumerism in America will be used to strengthen there world wide power and
influence over the economies of the world. With over half of the worlds
population in China and India, these two countries will and are emerging as
the world economic powers. China's "capitalist experiment" is something the
world has never seen but it exists under the authority of the Communist
ideological elite so it may be more fragile than we or they think. With a
full belly and some extra money to spend----we see the result of the cell
phone and other mass/personal communications "power". Pure capitalism
requires many buyers and many sellers, a model that has NOT existed in the
USA for a long long time. Because this is true it is possible for a new
intelligent elite to amass controlling wealth. Just some thoughts but
without a knowledge of the relationship of basic commodities a discussion of
"globalization" will make little sense. When the American Agriculture
Movement of the 80's failed, the collective power of family farmers failed.
Since then the movement has been to consolidation to larger and larger
producers. Some of our property connects to a wheat producer that runs
60,000 acres. Right now as I type millions and millions of dollars worth of
harvesting equiptment is at work. Last year Forbes Mag. came out and did an
article on the operation. Agricultural producers have never been able to
secure political power. Ted Turner however was able to get buffalo meat
added to the school lunch program. He now has the largest herd of buffalo in
the world.-------------------------
-------- I just paid pastoral visit to three daughters of the prairie;
92, 96 and 96! All are wonderful strong women who spent their lives in the
extremes of this environment. I look forward to hearing their many stories
of the dirty thirties and beyond. Blessings from the land we love---the
prairies---------- Blessings Roger

[Gabe]

Prairie Pastor Roger,

Good reasons for a theological struggle with globalization. Like a
sharp knife, the latter can hurt or heal. It looks like a given that
will not go away, unless God gets "fed up" us and Ends it all. May our
theological word be followed by our deeds until that End.

Oceanside Gabe

> ...
>
> read more »

[Willis E. Elliott]

Gabe & other Robinson readers/lurkers

 

While many principles apply to all Christian congregations, Christians everywhere should note the changing forms.  Loree & I are aware especially of differences in Chinese churches as our son Bill has been exploring them.

 

Just now, we can't think of globalization without praying for Max's recovery from a slight stroke.

 

This is primarily a note on the religion factor in America's input into globalization - a few thoughts after reading Mark Noll's "Does GLOBAL Christianity Equal AMERICAN Christianity?" (7.07 Christianity Today - an interview in light of Mark's recent book, "The New Shape of World Christianity").  /  Long ago in Craigville, I met with a group of young evangelical historians whose sense of mission included making an impact in the academic discipline of history (Lilly Foundation treating them & their families to a Craigville week, especially at the beach).  They were consciously into evangelicalsm's struggle for intellectual respectability (which Carl Henry was into as long ago as '42, when he & I were on the same seminary faculty).  Among them were George Marsden & Mark Noll, who've come in that discipline not only to recognition but to prominence.  (When I asked Mark to preach in the Craigville Tabernacle, he said he was an historian, he couldn't preach.  I said, "No problem.  We've had some preachers who couldn't preach, either."  And he preached well.)

1

David Neff's aim, in the interview, was to discuss "the myths and realities of American influence overseas."  Western money & missions should not be exaggerated.  Indigenous Christianity is, in world Christianity, a greater factor than many in the West realize.  "Forcing the missionaries to leave [China, in 1950] was the birth of Christian China."

2

"Much of the world is coming to have social structures like those in which Christian faith grew in the United States.  That social structure is after Christendom.  The development of Christian communities in the U.S. was the first large-scale effort to found, establish, guide, and nurture Christian communities after Christendom."  NOTE: America was "post-Christendom" from the start, long before any areas of the West became "post-Christian."

3

The widespread assumption that the West's global spread was a united military/religious/economic "crusade" is (I'm here asserting) anti-Christian & anti-democratic fiction.  British India, e.g., tried to keep missionaries away: "missionaries were seen as disruptive" religiously, & potentially in that "new Christians would want self-determination...hard to control."

4

Vigorous non-Western Christianity is sending missionaries to the West.  "The Western imperial era did not last very long" (from "the last third of the 19th century to 1960").

5

Missions now, as before the 1840s, is largely unsystematic, "on the run"; and "lay empowerment" is on the increase.

6

Noll is "encouraged by" the fact that "sophisticated cultural analysis is now proceeding alongside a strong evangelism missions mandate."

7

No mentioned in the interview, but a prominent feature of Mark's teaching is the "two foundings" view of American history.  While religion was a prominent factor in the founding of the colonies-states, the freedom-from-Europe push was largely driven by Enlightenment values (which in Britain & Europe provided distance from both "church" & "state").  But 18th-c. evangelicalism paralleled "the Founders" (Whitefield, who greatly impressed Franklin, died six years before the Declaration of Independence), & the 19th-c. "Great Awakenings" completed "the second founding."

 

Grace and peace--

Willis

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gabe" <gfa...@comcast.net>

To: "Confessing Christ Open Forum" <Confessi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:53 PM

Subject: Re: Globalization, General Synod, Robinson, etc..

[Jean Easland]

Gabe: We decided to lighten or life with a new puppy-what a joy we got a
Small Munsterlander. A new breed to USA but an old breed to Germany. First
imported in the 90's . They are a versatile hunting dog. Our German
Wire-haired Pointer is going on 13 so I will train a new hunting companion.
I hope the Holy Spirit overwhelms you all at your Col.so that you just sit
in awe and worship, then you all cancel everything and go out and street
evangelize----------shake the Cape to the bone with love glowing all about
you. This weeks Eph. text is a good one---marked, sealed and receivers of
the promised Holy Spirit. Ft. Pierre is a hard drinking and hard harted
town. I am so thankful that God is allowing me to do what I can to open
hearts to be softened and quickened by the reception of the Holy Spirit. I
expect something good will happen tomorrow in worship-----Blessing Ol
salty-r than you admit Gabe----------Roger. I believe with you that the
consumation is not that far off----the field ARE white for the harvest---Ol
still riding Roger