Imagine that you've been training BJJ for a few months and have been
enjoying everything that's involved with the training: the technique,
the camaraderie, the confidence that you've developed, the friendly
mat rivalries that you've developed with your training partners, the
locker room trash-talking, trying to guess who's going to be the next
person to get promoted, and the fact that there are no expectations or
pressure to perform.
Then one day, as your class ends, your instructor calls you up and
rewards you with your belt promotion to the next rank. Are you happy,
heck no! The first thing that crosses your mind is denial because you
don't think you're good enough yet. The next thing that crosses your
mind is the person that you think is better than you that didn't get
promoted and how they're going to feel. And it doesn't help as you
walk towards the locker room, you hear some people whispering about
how you shouldn't have gotten promoted before they did. And as you
leave the school that night headed for home, a moment that should be
celebrated has become a moment filled with anxiety and fear....
> Then one day, as your class ends, your instructor calls you up and > rewards you with your belt promotion to the next rank.
*This, in my humble opinion, speaks volumes about your abilities if a truly true Sensei hands you a belt and tells you that you are qualified to such-n-such a level. *
> Are you happy, > heck no!
*Not happy, well then maybe you are normal. I am Roku-dan and still feel, at least half the time, that I am barely a good brown belt.*
> The next thing that crosses your > mind is the person that you think is better than you that didn't get > promoted and how they're going to feel.
*If you are truly deserving and have practiced dililgently then you should not be contemplating all the things that couda, shouda, woulda, occurred if you had done this, or that, or whatever. If they are feeling left out or what ever then they still have a way to go.
Not all promotions are done for technical knowledge or physical performance. Sometimes it is the esoteric values of the Way that warrant recognition. Then again, if you don't feel it in your heart then regardless of what belt you wear you don't deserve it.*
> And it doesn't help as you > walk towards the locker room, you hear some people whispering about > how you shouldn't have gotten promoted before they did.
*Their problem so they should show up for the next training session, put thier thoughts and ego's in the locker, get dressed, hit the dojo floor and train harder and longer.*
> And as you > leave the school that night headed for home, a moment that should be > celebrated has become a moment filled with anxiety and fear....
*Tsk, tsk, tsk, put this thought from your mind and enjoy the present moment. Enjoy nature and your attained sense of that which is one, the Tao. Let the mind be in the now and not in either the past or the future for this moment is the only thing that is real. Live it and let the rest go.
If you have followed the way and attained any level of the way then all this other stuff is just verbal harangue and let it go, stay in the moment, be in the present, enjoy that and forget the rest. * Respectfully,
Charles -- Charles E. James
"Remain nonreactive, calm, assertive and absolutely alert when confronted with challenging people or situations. Immediately accept the situation, be one with it, then out of alertness will come a response." - Echart Tolle
"Fear, that which is manifested by the ego who focuses on the past and future. Overcome fear by becoming tuned to only the present; the now; this moment; nothing more; nothing less." - James
Having started an at ATA school, yes, I often feel like I don't
deserve the belt I wear, but that mostly has to do with my personal
feelings regarding the ATA and how quickly and often they test for
rank. Yes, I can properly demonstrate the required techniques up to my
belt level, and with all the extra work that I put in at the dojahng,
I can do quite a bit more, but I often don't agree that those
requirements are a high enough standard. Luckily, my instructors
agree, and have dissolved their affiliation with that franchise.
I still don't think that the black belt I will (eventually) earn will
be quite as...worthy of respect...as what other people have done, but
I also know that it's not the only thing that I have been training in.
Man! Very good thread subject. I agree with Charles, but don't agree
with you kadid.
ALL of us could point to someone we think is more deserving of the
same rank. I can point to many myself - including me on some days!
However, what I'm sensing is more of a belief that your school's rank
doesn't measure up to those awarded at other schools. I think this may
be just a "grass is always greener" self-judgment. All I ever had to
do to feel proud of my school's relatively few black belts and dan
promotions was to go to a tournament. There I saw so many examples of
pettiness, immaturity, cheating (or sliding down into the "gray
area"), favoritism, and outright theft - and that was among the "black
belts!" From the little I know of you (what you write and how you
interact), you should be considered a credit to your school,
instructors, and parents - somebody done something right.
Don't judge your rank by anything but what it is - a grade awarded
according to the standards of your school/association. The real belt
is worn inside and shown on the outside by how you treat others. So
there!
> Having started an at ATA school, yes, I often feel like I don't
> deserve the belt I wear, but that mostly has to do with my personal
> feelings regarding the ATA and how quickly and often they test for
> rank. Yes, I can properly demonstrate the required techniques up to my
> belt level, and with all the extra work that I put in at the dojahng,
> I can do quite a bit more, but I often don't agree that those
> requirements are a high enough standard. Luckily, my instructors
> agree, and have dissolved their affiliation with that franchise.
> I still don't think that the black belt I will (eventually) earn will
> be quite as...worthy of respect...as what other people have done, but
> I also know that it's not the only thing that I have been training in.
Thank you for the kind words, Nathan. I just acknowledge the fact that
where I started was a mcdojo, although certainly my instructors
challenge us to higher standards consistently, and would never allow
their students to demonstrate such behavior as you mention! Yikes! For
the first year I trained, it was out of total respect for my
instructors and what *they* taught rather than what was required by
ATA. It's been fascinating to watch the school change (and grow!) now
that we are no longer affiliated with such franchises. I do know that
Sir will not give me a black belt until I have earned it in his
opinion, and since I respect him, I have to trust that when he thinks
I have earned it, I actually will have. Until that time, I just do my
best =)
And frankly, whatever rank you have in a specific style is not going
to do you any good on the street. A bad guy isn't going to know I'm a
red belt in tkd and train in haganah - until I don't go down as easily
as he expects a skinny white girl to ;-)
I do think that if you trust and respect your instructor, you can
trust and respect whatever belt level he/she feels you have earned in
whatever style/school you train in. I'm just not sure that a "black
belt" means the same thing in all schools - would a first dan black
belt in an ATA tkd school measure up to a first dan black belt from a
Korean school, for example?
On May 1, 7:37 pm, TDA Training - Nathan <tdatrain...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Man! Very good thread subject. I agree with Charles, but don't agree
> with you kadid.
> ALL of us could point to someone we think is more deserving of the
> same rank. I can point to many myself - including me on some days!
> However, what I'm sensing is more of a belief that your school's rank
> doesn't measure up to those awarded at other schools. I think this may
> be just a "grass is always greener" self-judgment. All I ever had to
> do to feel proud of my school's relatively few black belts and dan
> promotions was to go to a tournament. There I saw so many examples of
> pettiness, immaturity, cheating (or sliding down into the "gray
> area"), favoritism, and outright theft - and that was among the "black
> belts!" From the little I know of you (what you write and how you
> interact), you should be considered a credit to your school,
> instructors, and parents - somebody done something right.
> Don't judge your rank by anything but what it is - a grade awarded
> according to the standards of your school/association. The real belt
> is worn inside and shown on the outside by how you treat others. So
> there!
> > Having started an at ATA school, yes, I often feel like I don't
> > deserve the belt I wear, but that mostly has to do with my personal
> > feelings regarding the ATA and how quickly and often they test for
> > rank. Yes, I can properly demonstrate the required techniques up to my
> > belt level, and with all the extra work that I put in at the dojahng,
> > I can do quite a bit more, but I often don't agree that those
> > requirements are a high enough standard. Luckily, my instructors
> > agree, and have dissolved their affiliation with that franchise.
> > I still don't think that the black belt I will (eventually) earn will
> > be quite as...worthy of respect...as what other people have done, but
> > I also know that it's not the only thing that I have been training in.- Hide quoted text -
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:06 PM, <kadid...@yahoo.com> wrote: > I do think that if you trust and respect your instructor, you can > trust and respect whatever belt level he/she feels you have earned in > whatever style/school you train in. I'm just not sure that a "black > belt" means the same thing in all schools - would a first dan black > belt in an ATA tkd school measure up to a first dan black belt from a > Korean school, for example?
I have no experience with ATA, but I (obviously) have experience in Korea. Taekwondo is a BUSINESS here, and mostly it's a KID business all about making PARENTS happy. In general, Korean parents want their students to do the best, and if they don't do the best, they'd better be like everyone else at least.
Switching examples for a moment--English education. The majority of hogwons (private institutes) are about keeping the parents happy. What do parents want? White--preferably North American--young women who speak English as a first language. Put the resume of a fresh out of college white girl against a certified black ESL teacher and who gets hired? The moms want the white girl, so the (on paper) least qualified gets the job and the moms are happy. Furthermore, at the majority of hogwons, the moms want grades. BUT heaven help anyone if their baby doesn't get an A. I have yet to hear of ANY student getting less than an A- or B+ at their hogwon, and this includes children who flat out won't speak English. After all, give the good grade to little Minsu is as good as little Mina and mom will keep paying for classes. In fact, this is even the case at public schools. Sure students are ranked (everyone knows who number 1 in the class is) but nobody fails. The only failure in school comes in their final year, when they take their college exams (and teenage suicide momentarily jumps...like it does every year during the test time). Until then, ALL students are the same.
Now, apply the moms' wishes and dads' paychecks to taekwondo schools.
(And yes, I specify mom and dad because in most Korean households the fathers work and the mothers control the money and try to keep their kids really busy so they can have their own mom time at home with other ajummas.)
In response to Amanda: Yeah... when I was in the U.S. I thought martial arts in Asia were much stricter with training and more hardcore, but taekwondo is the national sport of Korea--and mostly a kiddie activity. It's fun. Do jangs play soccer together and take ski trips, and as Amanda pointed out, it's a business. Sure, people learn the forms and you have to test for dans in front of the national boards, but it's not the super-strict lifetime training obsession I expected it to be.
To give you an idea, I started taekwondo eight months ago and tested for first dan last week. Granted training is daily and I don't know what the results will be for another few days, but I definitely don't yet "feel" like black belt material. However, what I did at the test was really no different than what the other students from other schools demonstrated. I know what I'm supposed to know at this level and on most days it looks pretty good. I trust Sa Beom Nim.
There is a self-esteem component attached to the original question. I'm curious if men and women approach feelings of "worth" associated with a belt/rank differently.
"Don't judge your rank by anything but what it is - a grade awarded according to the standards of your school/association. The real belt is worn inside and shown on the outside by how you treat others. So there!"
Truer words have rarely been spoken.
Cheers, Diana
On 5/2/08, Amanda S. <ama...@amandashopa.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:06 PM, <kadid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I do think that if you trust and respect your instructor, you can > > trust and respect whatever belt level he/she feels you have earned in > > whatever style/school you train in. I'm just not sure that a "black > > belt" means the same thing in all schools - would a first dan black > > belt in an ATA tkd school measure up to a first dan black belt from a > > Korean school, for example?
> I have no experience with ATA, but I (obviously) have experience in > Korea. Taekwondo is a BUSINESS here, and mostly it's a KID business > all about making PARENTS happy. In general, Korean parents want their > students to do the best, and if they don't do the best, they'd better > be like everyone else at least.
> Switching examples for a moment--English education. The majority of > hogwons (private institutes) are about keeping the parents happy. > What do parents want? White--preferably North American--young women > who speak English as a first language. Put the resume of a fresh out > of college white girl against a certified black ESL teacher and who > gets hired? The moms want the white girl, so the (on paper) least > qualified gets the job and the moms are happy. Furthermore, at the > majority of hogwons, the moms want grades. BUT heaven help anyone if > their baby doesn't get an A. I have yet to hear of ANY student > getting less than an A- or B+ at their hogwon, and this includes > children who flat out won't speak English. After all, give the good > grade to little Minsu is as good as little Mina and mom will keep > paying for classes. In fact, this is even the case at public schools. > Sure students are ranked (everyone knows who number 1 in the class > is) but nobody fails. The only failure in school comes in their final > year, when they take their college exams (and teenage suicide > momentarily jumps...like it does every year during the test time). > Until then, ALL students are the same.
> Now, apply the moms' wishes and dads' paychecks to taekwondo schools.
> (And yes, I specify mom and dad because in most Korean households the > fathers work and the mothers control the money and try to keep their > kids really busy so they can have their own mom time at home with > other ajummas.)
Regardless of the org and its pension to rank quickly. If you have the basic requirements for your Sensei and still feel like you are not up to the proper level then I would suggest you do as I did when I received my black belt.
I felt that it was to early and that I did not meet the standards I felt were required to be at that level even tho Shodan is really recognition that you persevered to become a student of karate. In my opinion the kyu levels are merely novices who aspire to train in karate and the time spent there is to show themselves they truly desire to train/practice the way.
So, when Henry Onshi called me in front of the class, took off his black well worn obi, handed it to me, and said, "Here ya go james", then smiled and asked me to run the class I was totally out of water. I then, here is my point now, decided that I would work and do what ever it took to live up to the challenge.
Every promotion I received since has been basically the same and only this last one did I truly feel I had finally come to the level, be it the minimal of that level, I feel I have justified within myself.
So, go for the gusto, practice, train, do what you feel is necessary to reach the level you aspire to be at and then feel good that you made that decision.
On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 4:21 PM, <kadid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Having started an at ATA school, yes, I often feel like I don't > deserve the belt I wear, but that mostly has to do with my personal > feelings regarding the ATA and how quickly and often they test for > rank. Yes, I can properly demonstrate the required techniques up to my > belt level, and with all the extra work that I put in at the dojahng, > I can do quite a bit more, but I often don't agree that those > requirements are a high enough standard. Luckily, my instructors > agree, and have dissolved their affiliation with that franchise.
> I still don't think that the black belt I will (eventually) earn will > be quite as...worthy of respect...as what other people have done, but > I also know that it's not the only thing that I have been training in.
-- Charles E. James
"Remain nonreactive, calm, assertive and absolutely alert when confronted with challenging people or situations. Immediately accept the situation, be one with it, then out of alertness will come a response." - Echart Tolle
"Fear, that which is manifested by the ego who focuses on the past and future. Overcome fear by becoming tuned to only the present; the now; this moment; nothing more; nothing less." - James
> Don't judge your rank by anything but what it is - a grade awarded > according to the standards of your school/association. The real belt > is worn inside and shown on the outside by how you treat others. So > there!
This statement is excellent and a good start...there is more to it than this yet this is a real important part.
Charles
-- Charles E. James
"Remain nonreactive, calm, assertive and absolutely alert when confronted with challenging people or situations. Immediately accept the situation, be one with it, then out of alertness will come a response." - Echart Tolle
"Fear, that which is manifested by the ego who focuses on the past and future. Overcome fear by becoming tuned to only the present; the now; this moment; nothing more; nothing less." - James
Everybody who answered has had great advice, and I probably can't add
much, but consider this situation:
you train for a while until your sensei says it's time for yellow
belt. you begin to compare yourself against the "average yellow belt"
who is, by the way, about halfway to the next rank, and you feel that
you are lacking.
you train for a while more, get more ranks, finally sensei says it's
black belt time. you look at all the other shodans (who are halfway
to nidan) and feel lacking.
because it generallytakes longer for each rank, this phenomenon gets
worse and worse.
when they tell you it's time for 6th dan, if you are still in the
compare myself to others mode, then you have to compare yourself to
folks that have been 6th dan FOR YEARS.
this is made worse in organizations where different dan levels wear
different colors. for instance, in our organization, you wear black
belts from shodan to godan then you wear red and white belts for 6th,
7th, and 8th. then you wear red belts for 9th and 10th.
think about how the guy feels going from ikkyu to shodan and having to
put on a black belt when the average guy wearing a black belt has been
a black belt for years and may be 3rd or 4th degree. These guys he is
comparing himself to have >probably< been black belts longer than he
has even been doing martial arts. when you advance from 5th to 6th
dan and have to put on the red and white belt for the first time, the
only guys around for you to compare yourself to might have been dan
ranked longer than you've been alive!
so...longwinded way of saying:
1) the rank system is not a linear progression - more of a exponential
curve, so if youre going to compare yourself to others it will only
get worse and worse.
2) everybody feels what youre talking about. but if you let it lead to
rank inflation, where your students have to know more than you did to
get shodan and their students have to know even more to get to shodan,
pretty soon you have an even more stupid rank system where you have to
practive 15 years to get shodan, which is supposed to only be the
"first step."
On May 1, 3:56 pm, "jsxaescce...@yahoo.com" <jsxaescce...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Imagine that you've been training BJJ for a few months and have been
> enjoying everything that's involved with the training: the technique,
> the camaraderie, the confidence that you've developed, the friendly
> mat rivalries that you've developed with your training partners, the
> locker room trash-talking, trying to guess who's going to be the next
> person to get promoted, and the fact that there are no expectations or
> pressure to perform.
> Then one day, as your class ends, your instructor calls you up and
> rewards you with your belt promotion to the next rank. Are you happy,
> heck no! The first thing that crosses your mind is denial because you
> don't think you're good enough yet. The next thing that crosses your
> mind is the person that you think is better than you that didn't get
> promoted and how they're going to feel. And it doesn't help as you
> walk towards the locker room, you hear some people whispering about
> how you shouldn't have gotten promoted before they did. And as you
> leave the school that night headed for home, a moment that should be
> celebrated has become a moment filled with anxiety and fear....
This is a realy interesting thread!! And wow, I didn't realize I had
been stereotyping quite so much - thank you all for your patience and
teachings! I had never thought about tkd also being a business in
Korea, frankly I usually think of anything commercialized as American,
although now that it has been pointed out, I had a "duh!" moment. It
does make me feel a little better, though =)
In response to Mokuren Dojo's post, though, I agree - comparing
yourself to others isn't going to get you anywhere you want to go, no
matter if you think you are better or worse than anyone else.
I also had a conversation with Sir several months ago on this topic -
he had started focusing my training more on what I will need for black
belt, and I didn't feel I was ready for it - and he told me not to
think of black belt as a final destination. In terms of technique, it
is only a test to see if you have mastered the basics. In terms of
attitude, like others have said, it is on the inside. I try to
remember that, but it is hard sometimes. This thread has been a good
wakeup call for me!
"Remain nonreactive, calm, assertive and absolutely alert when confronted with challenging people or situations. Immediately accept the situation, be one with it, then out of alertness will come a response." - Echart Tolle
"Fear, that which is manifested by the ego who focuses on the past and future. Overcome fear by becoming tuned to only the present; the now; this moment; nothing more; nothing less." - James
I once asked that same question to someone and my answer was "wear the
belt, not as a reminder that you are ON that level, but as a reminder
that you need to work extra harder to GET to that level."
Wether i am on that level or not, keeping that answer in my mind has
always given me an extra boost to push myself a little bit harder.
I hope this makes sense to you all. It sounds right in my head.lol
It's an interesting and provocative question. False praise tends to
reduce respect for the praiser. So an instructor who tells me "good
energy" or "nice stances" when it's not true, loses my respect for him/
her and demoralizes me in general.
But I don't think that's the heart of your question about whether I
feel I deserve my belt (which is black). For me, earning a black
belt, meant understanding that the black belt was just another step in
a process. It was only the beginning of the next stage.
