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Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 07:37:11 -0400
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Subject: Re: [CTHackerspace] Re: Is it time to buy a 3D Printer ?
From: L C <trigger...@gmail.com>
To: cthackerspace@googlegroups.com
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Thanks Bill, I had to reread the material a couple times on the PLA.
Just a guess but it must make it vastly easier to make a "consumer" machine.
Still the layer thickness spec of 100 microns (.0039") has me drooling. I
did read on the the makergear site that they did a Yoda build at 20
microns<%20%20http://www.makergear.com/blogs/frontpage/6591695-20-microns-i-am>.
I am inferring that the slicing program will slice however thin a layer
that you want, and that on the computer side the current tools will
generate machine paths for whatever you want, but that on the machine side
it may or may not perform?
I really like the idea of a 100 micron machine. Could it be that this is a
advantageous characteristic of the PLA material?
Lee
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 9:01 PM, William Saturno <wsatu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't even think about that possibility. Good catch, Lee.
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:54 PM, Jeff Myer <jm...@myermountain.com> wrote:
> > Lee,
> >
> > You are correct, Pla only. They are offering the following for abs:
> >
> > http://store.makerbot.com/replicator2x.html
> >
> > This is a bit tough to get past for serious prototyping especially seeing
> > that pla doest glue up well.
> >
> > I had not taken notice of that previously. Guess they have been keeping
> word
> > of this this limitation low key.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:36 PM, L C <trigger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Looking at the Makerbot Replicator 2 specs but it is a PLA machine. Not
> >> for ABS?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Jeff Myer <jm...@myermountain.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> An interesting couple of posts. The more recent of the posts incited
> me
> >>> to chime in differently than I originally intended to Specifically, I
> was
> >>> intending on simply putting out some quick thoughts on Make versus
> Buy. The
> >>> linked article regarding DRM on printable items got me a bit more
> fired up
> >>> on 3d printing from more of a philosophical standpoint.
> >>>
> >>> For the simple answer of make versus buy, I do think that the price and
> >>> availability of assembled, ready to go 3d printers on the market today
> >>> really drive the need to ask the make versus buy question. At one end
> of the
> >>> spectrum, you have the SolidDoodle and some of the PrintRBot offerings
> >>> available in a ready to go configuration for under $500. On the other
> end
> >>> (of the consumer targeted machines) you have Makerbot Replicator,
> MakerGear
> >>> M2 and others in the $1800-$2500 range ready to go. It appears that
> the
> >>> higher end of the spectrum will get you dual head extrusion and speed
> over
> >>> the lower end machines. The higher end machines also seem to be
> comparable
> >>> to commercial machines with resolution and print quality.
> >>>
> >>> Compare these machines to kit and diy options that are currently out
> >>> there, and it is no longer as simple as a dollar to dollar comparison.
> For
> >>> example, one can easily spend over $500 in parts for a Reprap Mendel
> and
> >>> still need to spend significant time assembling, adjusting, breaking
> and
> >>> fixing before an acceptable print comes out. Why not just fork over
> the cash
> >>> for a SolidDoodle which runs out of the box. Without getting into a
> >>> discussion of pros and cons of each machine, I think that a big part
> of the
> >>> question is whether you are more interested in the journey or the
> >>> destination.
> >>>
> >>> For myself, the time spent getting the CT Hackerspace Mcwire repstrap
> up
> >>> and going was invaluable in teaching me about 3D printing. In the end
> the
> >>> speed of the machine made it practically useless however I know far
> more
> >>> than I would have learned just following along on the internet.
> >>> Incidentally, I really want to belt drive the X&Y axes on the CT
> Hackerspace
> >>> machine and make the thing worthwhile.
> >>>
> >>> Flash forward to about 2 weeks ago when I purchased a fully assembled
> >>> Printrbot Jr at the Maker Faire. This machine was $399 (Special price
> for
> >>> MakerFaire) fully assembled. The fully assembled part was a bit of
> >>> mis-information as I still needed to instal the control board after
> >>> unpacking the machine. After some simple set-up and calibration, I am
> >>> printing some fairly decent objects. Overall, I am very happy to be
> able to
> >>> go from a need or idea to physical item very quickly with this
> machine. It
> >>> is, in my mind, a utilitarian machine. It is not an art piece machine.
> Could
> >>> I tweak and tweak to get better resolution and speed? I sure could.
> For now
> >>> however, I intend to take it for what it is and put it to work making
> >>> functional pieces upon need or whim. If I print something that I
> absolutely
> >>> need to be of higher quality, I can always send it off to somebody
> else with
> >>> a higher quality machine or a printing service. The truth is that
> most of
> >>> what I am interested in is more functional than aesthetic. Don't get
> me
> >>> wrong, I am happy with the quality of the prints, they are just not
> >>> currently on par with commercial machines or the upper end of the
> consumer
> >>> machine world.
> >>>
> >>> If you are still reading, I will delve briefly into the philosophical
> end
> >>> of things. Amidst all of the discussion that ensued after it became
> clear
> >>> that Makerbot was going closed source with aspects of the Replicator
> 2, I
> >>> thought a lot about Open Source and what it meant to 3D printing
> becoming
> >>> accessible to the hobbyist and consumer.
> >>>
> >>> My conclusion is that the community behind the reprap project, coupled
> >>> with an open source mentality did something really incredible with 3D
> >>> printing. The community collaboratively engineered a low cost version
> of a
> >>> device/technology that was otherwise quite expensive and very
> "closed". I
> >>> also believe that it still the open source community that is driving
> the
> >>> state of the art for low cost 3d printing forward; Not the producers of
> >>> ready to print machines. With that in mind, I sincerely do hope that
> the
> >>> availability of ready to print, closed technology, solutions does
> not, too
> >>> severely, dilute the pool of talent and the wealth of innovation that
> has
> >>> allowed low cost 3d printing to evolve so quickly.
> >>>
> >>> On the other hand, perhaps what has happened with 3d printing
> represents
> >>> a new evolutionary model for innovation and the breaking down of the
> >>> barriers previously imposed by the capital based model for development
> of
> >>> new technologies. Perhaps the consumer grade 3D printer has passed the
> point
> >>> of diminishing returns for community development. Perhaps it is time
> to look
> >>> for the Next Big Closed Technology to make Open via community based
> open
> >>> source development.
> >>>
> >>> If that is the case, then what is to become of low cost 3d printing?
> >>> Will the technology state of the art migrate back to corporate
> interests and
> >>> become more closed? I do believe that will be the case however I also
> >>> believe that if it does swing too far in the closed direction, there
> will be
> >>> a community that will open it back up. The most important thing is
> that an
> >>> open source community continues to thrive by pushing the boundaries of
> >>> technology through leveraging the collaboration and horsepower that
> can
> >>> only be practically achieved in an open model.
> >>>
> >>> So, Make vs Buy? I believe that the time has come where if you are most
> >>> interested in printing objects to support your artistic or intellectual
> >>> pursuits, you should buy. If you are interested in becoming a 3d
> printing
> >>> expert and/or furthering the technology, at some point you must be
> building
> >>> a printer or improving upon a purchased printer.
> >>>
> >>> Jeff
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Triggerdog <trigger...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting news.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/12/myhrvold_patent_3d_printing/
> >>>>
> >>>> From Wikipedia a bit of info on the company "Intellectual Ventures"
> >>>>
> >>>> Intellectual Ventures is a private company notable for being one of
> the
> >>>> top-five owners of U.S. patents, as of 2011.[1] Its business model
> has a
> >>>> focus on developing a large patent portfolio and licensing these
> patents to
> >>>> companies. Publicly, it states that a major goal is to assist small
> >>>> inventors against corporations. In practice, much of their
> revenue[citation
> >>>> needed] comes from licensing patents from other corporations and then
> filing
> >>>> lawsuits for infringement of patents, a controversial practice known
> as
> >>>> patent trolling.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Saturday, October 13, 2012 6:01:03 AM UTC-4, Triggerdog wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I just saw that the Makerbot Replicator 2 is shipping, I was
> wondering
> >>>>> if it is time to just buy a 3D printer and make things or is all the
> time
> >>>>> building one worth it? I did want to make things with it after
> all;-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not to long ago if you wanted one you had to build it (or buy a $20K
> >>>>> Dimension).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now I am not so sure.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I need a 3D printer buyers guide but one's I've come across are not
> >>>>> current enough.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Anybody that has a comment or can point me to useful info would be
> >>>>> great.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lee
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>>> Groups "CT Hackerspace" group.
> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/CTHackerspace/-/MmneBmz8YxcJ.
> >>>>
> >>>> To post to this group, send email to CTHackerspace@googlegroups.com.
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >>>> CTHackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >>>> For more options, visit this group at
> >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/CTHackerspace?hl=en.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> >>> "CT Hackerspace" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to CTHackerspace@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >>> CTHackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >>> For more options, visit this group at
> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/CTHackerspace?hl=en.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> >> "CT Hackerspace" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to CTHackerspace@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> CTHackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >> http://groups.google.com/group/CTHackerspace?hl=en.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> > To post to this group, send email to CTHackerspace@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > CTHackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> > http://groups.google.com/group/CTHackerspace?hl=en.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "CT Hackerspace" group.
> To post to this group, send email to CTHackerspace@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> For more options, visit this group at
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>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Bill, I had to reread the material a couple times on the PLA.=A0 <br=
><br>Just a guess but it must make it vastly easier to make a "consume=
r" machine.<br><br>Still the layer thickness spec of 100 microns (.003=
9") has me drooling.=A0<a href=3D"%20%20http://www.makergear.com/blogs=
/frontpage/6591695-20-microns-i-am"> I did read on the the makergear site t=
hat they did a Yoda build at 20 microns</a>.=A0 I am inferring that the sli=
cing program will slice however thin a layer that you want, and that on the=
computer side the current tools will generate machine paths for whatever y=
ou want, but that on the machine side it may or may not perform?<br>
<br>I really like the idea of a 100 micron machine.=A0 Could it be that thi=
s is a advantageous characteristic of the PLA material?=A0 <br><br>Lee<br><=
br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 13, 2=
012 at 9:01 PM, William Saturno <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:wsa=
tu...@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">wsatu...@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:=
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I didn't even think about that possibili=
ty. Good catch, Lee.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:54 PM, Jeff Myer <<a href=3D"mailto:jmyer@myer=
mountain.com">jm...@myermountain.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Lee,<br>
><br>
> You are correct, Pla only. =A0They are offering the following for abs:=
<br>
><br>
> =A0<a href=3D"http://store.makerbot.com/replicator2x.html" target=3D"_=
blank">http://store.makerbot.com/replicator2x.html</a><br>
><br>
> This is a bit tough to get past for serious prototyping especially see=
ing<br>
> that pla doest glue up well.<br>
><br>
> I had not taken notice of that previously. Guess they have been keepin=
g word<br>
> of this this limitation low key.<br>
><br>
> Jeff<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:36 PM, L C <<a href=3D"mailto:triggerdog@=
gmail.com">trigger...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Looking at the Makerbot Replicator 2 specs but it is a PLA machine=
. =A0Not<br>
>> for ABS?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Jeff Myer <<a href=3D"mailto:j=
m...@myermountain.com">jm...@myermountain.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> An interesting couple of posts. =A0The more recent of the post=
s incited me<br>
>>> to chime in differently than I originally intended to Specific=
ally, I was<br>
>>> intending on simply putting out some quick thoughts on Make ve=
rsus Buy. The<br>
>>> linked article regarding DRM on printable items got me a bit m=
ore fired up<br>
>>> on 3d printing from more of a philosophical standpoint.<br>
>>><br>
>>> For the simple answer of make versus buy, I do think that the =
price and<br>
>>> availability of assembled, ready to go 3d printers on the mark=
et today<br>
>>> really drive the need to ask the make versus buy question. At =
one end of the<br>
>>> spectrum, you have the SolidDoodle and some of the PrintRBot o=
fferings<br>
>>> available in a ready to go configuration for under $500. On th=
e other end<br>
>>> (of the consumer targeted machines) you have Makerbot Replicat=
or, MakerGear<br>
>>> M2 and others in the $1800-$2500 range ready to go. =A0It appe=
ars that the<br>
>>> higher end of the spectrum will get you dual head extrusion an=
d speed over<br>
>>> the lower end machines. The higher end machines also seem to b=
e comparable<br>
>>> to commercial machines with resolution and print quality.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Compare these machines to kit and diy options that are current=
ly out<br>
>>> there, and it is no longer as simple as a dollar to dollar com=
parison. =A0For<br>
>>> example, one can easily spend over $500 in parts for a Reprap =
Mendel and<br>
>>> still need to spend significant time assembling, adjusting, br=
eaking and<br>
>>> fixing before an acceptable print comes out. Why not just fork=
over the cash<br>
>>> for a SolidDoodle which runs out of the box. =A0Without gettin=
g into a<br>
>>> discussion of pros and cons of each machine, I think that a bi=
g part of the<br>
>>> question is whether you are more interested in the journey or =
the<br>
>>> destination.<br>
>>><br>
>>> For myself, the time spent getting the CT Hackerspace Mcwire r=
epstrap up<br>
>>> and going was invaluable in teaching me about 3D printing. In =
the end the<br>
>>> speed of the machine made it practically useless however I kno=
w far more<br>
>>> than I would have learned just following along on the internet=
.<br>
>>> Incidentally, I really want to belt drive the X&Y axes on =
the CT Hackerspace<br>
>>> machine and make the thing worthwhile.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Flash forward to about 2 weeks ago when I purchased a fully as=
sembled<br>
>>> Printrbot Jr at the Maker Faire. =A0This machine was $399 (Spe=
cial price for<br>
>>> MakerFaire) fully assembled. The fully assembled part was a bi=
t of<br>
>>> mis-information as I still needed to instal the control board =
after<br>
>>> unpacking the machine. After some simple set-up and calibratio=
n, I am<br>
>>> printing some fairly decent objects. Overall, I am very happy =
to be able to<br>
>>> go from a need or idea to physical item very quickly with this=
machine. It<br>
>>> is, in my mind, a utilitarian machine. It is not an art piece =
machine. Could<br>
>>> I tweak and tweak to get better resolution and speed? I sure c=
ould. For now<br>
>>> however, I intend to take it for what it is and put it to work=
making<br>
>>> functional pieces upon need or whim. =A0If I print something t=
hat I absolutely<br>
>>> need to be of higher quality, I can always send it off to some=
body else with<br>
>>> a higher quality machine or a printing service. =A0The truth i=
s that most of<br>
>>> what I am interested in is more functional than aesthetic. =A0=
Don't get me<br>
>>> wrong, I am happy with the quality of the prints, they are jus=
t not<br>
>>> currently on par with commercial machines or the upper end of =
the consumer<br>
>>> machine world.<br>
>>><br>
>>> If you are still reading, I will delve briefly into the philos=
ophical end<br>
>>> of things. Amidst all of the discussion that ensued after it b=
ecame clear<br>
>>> that Makerbot was going closed source with aspects of the Repl=
icator 2, I<br>
>>> thought a lot about Open Source and what it meant to 3D printi=
ng becoming<br>
>>> accessible to the hobbyist and consumer.<br>
>>><br>
>>> My conclusion is that the community behind the reprap project,=
coupled<br>
>>> with an open source mentality did something really incredible =
with 3D<br>
>>> printing. The community collaboratively engineered a low cost =
version of a<br>
>>> device/technology that was otherwise quite expensive and very =
"closed". I<br>
>>> also believe that it still the open source community that is d=
riving =A0the<br>
>>> state of the art for low cost 3d printing forward; Not the pro=
ducers of<br>
>>> ready to print machines. With that in mind, I sincerely do hop=
e that the<br>
>>> availability of ready to print, =A0closed technology, solution=
s does not, too<br>
>>> severely, dilute the pool of talent and the wealth of innovati=
on that has<br>
>>> allowed low cost 3d printing to evolve so quickly.<br>
>>><br>
>>> On the other hand, perhaps what has happened with 3d printing =
represents<br>
>>> a new evolutionary model for innovation and the breaking down =
of the<br>
>>> barriers previously imposed by the capital based model for dev=
elopment of<br>
>>> new technologies. Perhaps the consumer grade 3D printer has pa=
ssed the point<br>
>>> of diminishing returns for community development. Perhaps it i=
s time to look<br>
>>> for the Next Big Closed Technology to make Open via community =
based open<br>
>>> source development.<br>
>>><br>
>>> If that is the case, then what is to become of low cost 3d pri=
nting?<br>
>>> Will the technology state of the art migrate back to corporate=
interests and<br>
>>> become more closed? =A0I do believe that will be the case howe=
ver I also<br>
>>> believe that if it does swing too far in the closed direction,=
there will be<br>
>>> a community that will open it back up. The most important thin=
g is that an<br>
>>> open source community continues to thrive by pushing the bound=
aries of<br>
>>> technology =A0through leveraging the collaboration and horsepo=
wer that can<br>
>>> only be practically achieved in an open model.<br>
>>><br>
>>> So, Make vs Buy? I believe that the time has come where if you=
are most<br>
>>> interested in printing objects to support your artistic or int=
ellectual<br>
>>> pursuits, you should buy. If you are interested in becoming a =
3d printing<br>
>>> expert and/or furthering the technology, at some point you mus=
t be building<br>
>>> a printer or improving upon a purchased printer.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Jeff<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Triggerdog <<a href=3D"mai=
lto:trigger...@gmail.com">trigger...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Interesting news.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a href=3D"http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/12/myhrvol=
d_patent_3d_printing/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/=
10/12/myhrvold_patent_3d_printing/</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> From Wikipedia a bit of info on the company "Intellec=
tual Ventures"<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Intellectual Ventures is a private company notable for bei=
ng one of the<br>
>>>> top-five owners of U.S. patents, as of 2011.[1] Its busine=
ss model has a<br>
>>>> focus on developing a large patent portfolio and licensing=
these patents to<br>
>>>> companies. Publicly, it states that a major goal is to ass=
ist small<br>
>>>> inventors against corporations. In practice, much of their=
revenue[citation<br>
>>>> needed] comes from licensing patents from other corporatio=
ns and then filing<br>
>>>> lawsuits for infringement of patents, a controversial prac=
tice known as<br>
>>>> patent trolling.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Saturday, October 13, 2012 6:01:03 AM UTC-4, Triggerdog=
wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I just saw that the Makerbot Replicator 2 is shipping,=
=A0I was wondering<br>
>>>>> if it is time to just buy a 3D printer and make things=
or is all the time<br>
>>>>> building one worth it? =A0I did want to make things wi=
th it after all;-)<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Not to long ago if you wanted one you had to build it =
(or buy a $20K<br>
>>>>> Dimension).<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Now I am not so sure.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I need a 3D printer buyers guide but one's I'v=
e come across are not<br>
>>>>> current enough.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Anybody that has a comment or can point me to useful i=
nfo would be<br>
>>>>> great.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Lee<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>> --<br>
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to th=
e Google<br>
>>>> Groups "CT Hackerspace" group.<br>
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit<br>
>>>> <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msg/CTHackerspace/-=
/MmneBmz8YxcJ" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/CTHackersp=
ace/-/MmneBmz8YxcJ</a>.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:CTH=
ackerspace@googlegroups.com">CTHackerspace@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
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en</a>.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
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>><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
--f46d043c82227e974404cc03577a--
Message from discussion Is it time to buy a 3D Printer ?
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