Christians Can't , don't read the bible
thea
<tlnob2@bellsouth.net>SACRED SYMBOLS CONNECTING NORTH AMERICA TO
MU nevernwo.blog spot.com/
SLABS FROM PATAMBO.--These two slabs were found by William Niven in an
ancient grave on the banks of the river Rio del Oro in the state of Guerraro, Mexico. They are not the work of a very ancient civilization like those of Chimalpa, Remedios et cetera. This civilization occupied Mexico less than 12,000 years ago as is shown by the inscription on one of the tablets, "returned to the region of darkness" which was submerged Mu.
Ice: The Ultimate Disaster Their actual age I cannot estimate. Each slab has a top and bottom division. The divisions are formed by a carved line running horizontally across
the face of the slab near its center. The central figure in each of the top divisions is a conventional, symbolical head of Quetzalcoatl the bearded or feathered serpent, the symbolic serpent of the Creator in one part of Mu, and corresponds with Naga or Narayana the seven-headed serpent of Oriental countries. The ancient peoples of North America had various names for their Serpent of Creation. The Quiches, called it Gucumatz, the serpent covered with feathers.[paragraph continues]
The catastrophe 65 million years ago:
According to Sheldon Nidel, Sheldon has had communication with the Sirians since childhood. He has been taken aboard their ships and eduated in their galactic schools. From his long time acquaintance with the Sirians he has been able to add missing pieces to the puzzle of our ancient past. Much of this information can be further studied in his book , 'You are becoming a Galactic Human'. Although there are indicators that a catastophe happened here on earth 65 million years ago, Sheldon was able to add more on this but his dates
show 35 million years ago. ..a 30 million year difference. As time goes on and more evidence surfaces from our lost past, we will then be able to get a better handle on these dates. But whether it be 65 or 35, I believe that we are all more than convinced
that civilization did not start only thousands of years ago in the Land of Eden with Adam and Eve.
However, something did happen to man at that time. Below we will look at the possibilities that civilizations may have started around the world and the the Leumurian Continent may have been the hub. In the time before time there were 3 other moons and three times these moons crashed into earth destroying the life and civilizations that had been built there. In between the destruction of the 3rd moon and the coming for the 4th moon which is our moon a tall blonde blue eyed race lived on the Island of Atlantis. Floods and an Ice Age followed the destruction of the third moon. 65 Million Years Ago Scientists believe a crater was formed by an asteroid or comet which slammed into the Earth more than 65 million years ago. It is this impact crater that has been linked to a major biological catastrophe where more than 50 percent of the Earth's species, including the dinosaurs, became extinct.
26 Million Years Ago the Dinoid (from Bellatrix system in the constellation of Orion) and Reptoid colonies (from one of the lesser known stars in the constellation of Sagittarius) arrive and inhabit Earth . A mammalian species of humans evolved which we now call pre-cataceans.. The pre-cataceans developed their spiritual side extensively - Reptoids and Dinoids had colonies still here on Earth and were using the pre-cataceans for an food supply and exchanging some technology with them. Evolving from the mamalian species came 3 civiliaztions which coexisted in harmony, trading among one another for 8 million years,. 10 Million Years Ago -Dinoid /Reptoid Alliance (from Bellatrix) come to stop the cooperation with the pre-cataceans - they believed they were superior and should therefore control all other beings. Over next 10,000 years the Earth Dinoids and Reptoids become more and more influenced by the Bellatrix Dinoid/Reptoid Alliance. Dinoid/Reptoids decide -during these 10,000 years- to destroy the entire pre-catacean race through various psychological war tactics . Pre-cataceans sense this aggression
(through their high psychic abilities) and realize the threat presented now by the Dinoid/Reptoid civilizations.
8 Million Years Ago Pre-cataceans leaves Earth and others evolves into present day cataceans (dolphins and whales) nevernwo.blog spot.com/
Pre-cataceans decide to implode their fusion reactors located in the Ural Mountain
range (with the Earth Spiritual Hierarchies giving them the permission to do so) in a preemptive counter strike. - Pre-cataceans divide into two groups : 1 group evacuates out of our solar system (to the constellations of Pegasus and Cetus), and the other group begins to alter themselves physically so that they may enter the oceans and there
find a haven. This transformation process occurred over a period of 4 million years and the pre-cataceans therefore became the present day cataceans (i.e. the dolphins and whales).
Dinoid/Reptoid civilizations were destroyed on Earth. Survivors evacuated to planet Maldek.
Pre-cataceans then implode their fusion reactors, thus destroying 98% of the Dinoid/Reptoid civilizations; the remaining 2% evacuated to the planet Maldek (a planet within our solar system) . -
First Traces of Man came from Vega to replenish the Earth
With the Dinoid/Reptoid now no longer being present on Earth, the Earth Spiritual Hierarchies and the cataceans had to find a suitable guardian for the land. They searched the galaxy to a distance of approximately 80 light years from the Sun. - After 2 to 3 million years of searching the galaxy, a primitive aquatic species that was starting to emerge from the oceans was discovered on the fourth planet of the Vega system.
This, I believe to be, is where the origin of the Fish Gods tradition take root. sutherland
This species had creation myths, a language, and a hunting and gathering culture. The Spiritual Hierarchies of the Vega system were then asked if they would permit this particular species to be vastly altered genetically to accelerate their evolution so that they may become a guardian species. The Vega Spiritual Hierarchies agreed. Thus the
traces of the first humans was in the Vega star system.
More Space Technology
Their technology improved very quickly, and once they had developed star travel technology they started to migrate into nearby star systems (for a period of 2.5 million years) 4 Million Years BC , The Galactic Federation was formed - Sirius B was colonized and Earth was selected for seeding 2 Million Years BC Mars and Venus were colonized and a Hybornean colony was founded on Earth. This again conforms to H.P. Blavatsky's beliefs. Venesians as they look like today (Val Thor in the center,,Guests living in the sub levels of the White House ) 1 Million years b.c 'Their Back'
Nevernwo blog spot com/
Dinoid/Reptoids were building up their forces in the planet Maldek during all this time. - Dinoids/Reptoids have a mass attack on both our solar system and also the nearby ones - Colonies on Earth (Hybornea), Mars and Venus were totally destroyed. - Dinoids and Reptoid therefore regain control over the solar system for a period of 80,000 years.
But Not For Long..Asteroid Belt was formed from the destruction of Planet Maldek
Nevernwo blog spot com/
In response to this the Galactic Federation planned a counterattack to reintroduce humans into this system. They arranged for a battle planet (4 times the diameter of the Earth) to come into the solar system and destroy the planet Maldek - which was the Dinoid/Reptoid stronghold. The remains of the planet Maldek are what we can now see as the asteroid belt
900,000 BC
Lemurian Colonies Began
Human colony was again founded on Earth (it was called Lemuria) – Over the next 850,000 years the Lemurians spread right across the face of the planet 500,000 Years BC Lemurians founded what was called daughter colonies (the main ones being
Atlantis, Yu - what is now Central China and Tibet, and also the Libyan/Egyptian colony)
100,000 Years BC
Seperation of Man Begin Resulting in War and Destruction
Atlantis, Yu and Libyan/Egyptian colonies are declared daughter empires As the empires developed the Atlanteans began to acquire a feeling of uniqueness about their culture that led to feelings of separateness from the other daughter empires.
After some time the Atlanteans felt that THEY should become the mother empire, and quickly began to have a strong desire to destroy the Lemurians in order to gain full power.
Enters Renegade Pleidians and Alpha Centaurians http://nevernwo.blogspot.com/
The Atlanteans then began forming alliances with renegade Pleidians and Alpha Centaurians (which had hierarchical systems of government) to further develop their technologies
25,000 Years BC
Atlantis declares War against Mu and Allies http://ne vernwo.blogspot.com/
Earth's Second Moon and Great Flood
After waiting patiently for many years for just the right moment to attack the Lemurian empire, the Atlanteans decided to attack and destroy Lemuria with the help of their renegade allies. They would accomplish this by taking the Earth's other moon (Earth had 2 moons in those times) out of orbit by using force fields until it was as close as
possible to the Lemurian empire, and then the moon was destroyed resulting in a catastrophic shower of meteors. This destroyed much of Lemuria, but this also resulted in many pressures being inflicted upon the tectonic plates : resulting in the gas chambers under Lemuria to implode and thus sink most of the Lemurian continent.
From Atlantis To The Great Flood Shamballah or the Kingdom of Agartha
http://n ev ernwo.blogspot.com/
Yu empire would not bow down to the hierarchical rule of Atlantis and Libyan/Egyptian empires and was thus forced to literally go underground. Today, they form what is known as the Kingdom of Agartha or Shamballah. Atlantis forms 10 ruling districts, each with its own King. These Kings together formed the governing council of Atlantis.
25,000 - 15,000 Years BC
The Kingship Lines Are Established
The royal governing council of Atlantis decide that a new form of government was desperately needed in which a superior ruling class could be established and sustained by their pretense that they had been empowered by a God-Force. Autocracy was thus born and was in full control enforcing a period of peace and stability (One World Government)
Dna Manipulation Takes Place Reducing man's consciousness and making them more controllable (slaves)
They also started experimenting with peoples' DNA and genetics in order to make them more controllable. This also resulted in peoples consciousness being reduced, life spans contracted, and psychic/spiritual abilities decreasing dramatically.
15,000 - 10,000 Years BC
More War ..Catastrophies Noah's Flood
Throughout the years there are many wars among the various empires due to underground movements of people that wanted to have the Lemurian "philosophy" back in place (i.e. no hierarchy). These wars led to vast destruction. As a last resort the warring empires decided to attack the opponents crystal temples (which were responsible for maintaining two frozen layers of water about 15,000 - 30,000 feet above ground which protected people on Earth from the harmful sun's rays and also ensured
a stable weather pattern at all times) Unfortunately, the attacks were made simultaneously and caused the Firmament (the water layers) to be broken down and thus millions of gallons of water thus poured down onto the surface causing what is known biblically as "The Great Flood" (6000 years ago) The breakdown of the Firmament also resulted in the polar icecaps freezing and also the many climatic variations we have today to form.
After The Flood
Only about 2 million people survived the Flood (from an original 65 million). Unfortunately many of the survivors were the mutant humans (the ones that had been genetically altered by the Atlanteans into a much lower state of consciousness). Also, the fact that the firmament was now no longer in existence resulted in the DNA and thus
consciousness breaking down even further.
The Gods Descended
A few different renegades (from Pleides, Alpha and Beta Centauri) came to different places on Earth after the Flood, seeing it as an opportune time to establish their own desired ideologies and also be seen as "godlike" and thus reverenced (since there were mainly only mutant humans left). The humans were therefore easily controlled by these
renegades.
Establishing A Kingship Line of "Divine Right"
Since no form of disobedience to these new "gods" was allowed, the concept of ruling by "divine right" became inculcated on Earth. This concept of worshipping an elite has continued through to modern times. Culture would rise against culture in wars claiming that the elite they themselves worshipped were superior to the elite of the opposing
faction. - We are now in times, though, that will finally bring to an end an approximate 10,000 years of "semi-consciousness" and regain our full consciousness that we deserve. This will be due to our entire solar system coming into contact with what is known as the "Photon Belt" . This is predicted by the Mayan Calendar to be 2012, December Reference : You Are Becoming a Galactic Human by Washta, Virginia Essene, Sheldon Nidle
DATING 'INTELLIGENT' MAN BACK 65 MILLION YEARS Yes, Maybe Man Goes Back even further than what even Sheldon Nidle thinks .
Although Science digs their heels in when it comes to dating man back further than thousands of years ago, they do agree than dinosaurs have been around for millions of years. But if we can put man with dinosaurs than science must concede that man is millions of years old as well.
. In the riverbed of the Raluxy River in Texas, people found some footprints of dinosaurs that existed in the Cretaceous period.
Archaeologists were amazed when they found 12 fossils of human footprints only 18.5 inches away from the footprints of dinosaurs. Furthermore, one of the human footprints overlaps with a dinosaur footprint. Scientists cut the fossils, and found that there were some traces of compression in the section under the footprint, which proved that this fossil couldn’t have been counterfeited. And in the same terrain nearby, scientists found a fossil of a human finger and a man-made hammer.
In a cave in Peru, people found thousands of artworks made of stones that dated back to 200 million years ago. There are surprising pictures on some of them: a pilot was operating a strange flying object above a herd of dinosaurs, and some people were
attacking the dinosaur with axes!
Obviously, highly developed human beings once coexisted with dinosaurs. Scientists have found that dinosaurs died out suddenly 65 million years ago, a fact that still
cannot be explained....or can it? A possible explanation would be that a catastrophe happened at that time and destroyed the human civilization and most species of animals, including the dinosaurs. This conforms with Sheldon Nidle's history for that time.
1.6 The city of Mohenjodaro was destroyed because of suddenly raised temperature.
The site of the city of Mohenjodaro was found in the valley of the Indus River in today’s Pakistan. The excavation began in 1920 and has revealed that people at that time had achieved a highly developed culture comparable to the modern cosmopolitan culture. Houses were built with fired bricks. And in every household, there was an all but
perfect drainage system. Water from upstairs toilets could be passed from pipes in the wall into the sewers, and there were access points in the sewers for regular cleaning! Furthermore, some households were even equipped with special rubbish bins so that they could discard rubbish from upstairs. Many human remains were found in the site of the city. These people were not buried in the tombs but looked like they had died suddenly. One of the excavators said: “Obviously, all of them died suddenly because of some kind of abrupt change.” It can be confirmed that the ruin of the city and the death of its inhabitants were caused by suddenly raised temperature.
These cities were suddenly destroyed at the peak of their prosperity over one night 1200 years ago. Why did they perish so suddenly?
Archaeologists presume that an intense earthquake could have destroyed these cities.
This earthquake might have happened in 7th or 8th century AD, because the coins and treasure found by the divers were all of the Byzantine period. Archaeologists tried to describe what happened on that disastrous night some 1200 years ago: a huge earthquake tore the city into parts, and a deep abyss appeared in the central area of the
cities. Water ejected from the crack to the sky, swallowing streets, buildings and people instantly. More and more water surged into the cities, and the earth went deep into the sea. Soon the cities disappeared from the surface of the sea. Countless lives were buried at sea; almost nobody could have escaped from this disaster. Reference:
http://www.zhengjian.org/sci/sci/home/newscontent.asp?ID=10682
Interesting isn't it -- can't believe the Bible - but you can believe this then, can't you??
for they are the ones,
that let the light in.
Medusa
<Medusa4303@yahoo.com>On Jun 29, 11:32 am, "thea" <tln...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
<snip>
> Interesting isn't it -- can't believe the Bible - but you can believe this then, can't you??
> thea
> Blessed are the cracked,
> for they are the ones,
> that let the light in.
You surely are cracked.
Medusa
thea
<tlnob2@bellsouth.net>Date: Sun, Jun 29 2008 10:33 am
From: Medusa
trog69
<tom.trog69@gmail.com>you are indeed a whackadoodle. Fool.
Medusa
<Medusa4303@yahoo.com>thea wrote:
> Date: Sun, Jun 29 2008 10:33 am
> From: Medusa
> On Jun 29, 11:32 am, "thea" <tln...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> <snip>
> > Interesting isn't it -- can't believe the Bible - but you can believe this
> then, can't you??
> > thea
> > Blessed are the cracked,
> > for they are the ones,
> > that let the light in.
>
> If this last statement is true, you _are_ blessed up the ying-yang!
> You surely are cracked.
> Medusa
>
>
> Wow! I sure can get your chain rattled can't I :). You'd better have something better to say than this because I don't argue with fools!!
Bye.
Medusa
thea
<tlnob2@bellsouth.net>From: trog69
you are indeed a whackadoodle. Fool.
for they are the ones,
that let the light in.
trog69
<tom.trog69@gmail.com>(through their high psychic abilities)...
high psychic abilities = being eaten by dinosaurs = ("Uh, hey Fred,
why's that sabre-toothed tiger looking at us funny? Uh-huh-huh-huh, uh-
h aaaaaa!")
> 25,000 Years BC
> Atlantis declares War against Mu and Allieshttp://nevernwo.blogspot.com/
> Earth's Second Moon and Great Flood
> After waiting patiently for many years for just the right moment to attack the Lemurian empire, the Atlanteans decided to attack and destroy Lemuria with the help of their renegade allies. They would accomplish this by taking the Earth's other moon (Earth had 2 moons in those times) out of orbit by using force fields until it was as close as
> possible to the Lemurian empire, and then the moon was destroyed resulting in a catastrophic shower of meteors. This destroyed much of Lemuria, but this also resulted in many pressures being inflicted upon the tectonic plates : resulting in the gas chambers under Lemuria to implode and thus sink most of the Lemurian continent.
> From Atlantis To The Great Flood Shamballah or the Kingdom of Agartha
> http://n ev ernwo.blogspot.com/
>
> read more »
philosophy
<smwilson@tpg.com.au>First, what I say about the Bible is this:
The Bible exists. No doubt about it. It is how the people are told to
"interpret" the contents of the Bible that I really disagree with.
If we take a literal interpretation of the OT then it is pure
negativity.
That does not sit well with me, being a basically positive person.
If we take a literal interpretation of the NT, then it is divisive - a
them an us mentality. I would ditch Paul completely, so that wipes
out most of the NT. There are only two sentences that make sense
in the NT, and those are the ones which purport to be the "new
covenant". So, we then come down to "who or what is the Lord thy
God?" Well, I don't have one in the literal sense, so that bombs me
out.
Now, to your tome.
Why should I believe anything that is written there?
Even if it did happen as you say, so what? What has this got to
do with me? Please explain.
> 25,000 Years BC
> Atlantis declares War against Mu and Allieshttp://nevernwo.blogspot.com/
> Earth's Second Moon and Great Flood
> After waiting patiently for many years for just the right moment to attack the Lemurian empire, the Atlanteans decided to attack and destroy Lemuria with the help of their renegade allies. They would accomplish this by taking the Earth's other moon (Earth had 2 moons in those times) out of orbit by using force fields until it was as close as
> possible to the Lemurian empire, and then the moon was destroyed resulting in a catastrophic shower of meteors. This destroyed much of Lemuria, but this also resulted in many pressures being inflicted upon the tectonic plates : resulting in the gas chambers under Lemuria to implode and thus sink most of the Lemurian continent.
> From Atlantis To The Great Flood Shamballah or the Kingdom of Agartha
> http://n ev ernwo.blogspot.com/
>
> read more »
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>
Why, thank you for taking the time Thea, for posting such a tome.
First, what I say about the Bible is this:
The Bible exists. No doubt about it. It is how the people are told to
"interpret" the contents of the Bible that I really disagree with.
If we take a literal interpretation of the OT then it is pure
negativity.
That does not sit well with me, being a basically positive person.
If we take a literal interpretation of the NT, then it is divisive - a
them an us mentality. I would ditch Paul completely, so that wipes
out most of the NT. There are only two sentences that make sense
in the NT, and those are the ones which purport to be the "new
covenant". So, we then come down to "who or what is the Lord thy
God?" Well, I don't have one in the literal sense, so that bombs me
out.
Now, to your tome.
Why should I believe anything that is written there?
Even if it did happen as you say, so what? What has this got to
do with me? Please explain.
--
------------------------------------------------
Trance Gemini
Irrationally held "truths" may be more harmful than reasoned errors.
-- Thomas Henry Huxley
Which God Do You Kill For? --Unknown
Love is friendship on fire -- Unknown
thea
<tlnob2@bellsouth.net>>Date: Mon, Jun 30 2008 4:26 pm
>From: philosophy
>Why, thank you for taking the time Thea, for posting such a tome.
>First, what I say about the Bible is this:
>The Bible exists. No doubt about it. It is how the people are told to
>"interpret" the contents of the Bible that I really disagree with.
>If we take a literal interpretation of the OT then it is pure
>negativity.
>That does not sit well with me, being a basically positive person.
>If we take a literal interpretation of the NT, then it is divisive - a
>them an us mentality. I would ditch Paul completely, so that wipes
>out most of the NT. There are only two sentences that make sense
>in the NT, and those are the ones which purport to be the "new
>covenant". So, we then come down to "who or what is the Lord thy
>God?" Well, I don't have one in the literal sense, so that bombs me
>out.
>Now, to your tome.
>Why should I believe anything that is written there?
>Even if it did happen as you say, so what? What has this got to
>do with me? Please explain.
Well, you don't accept the Bible -- and so, smart ass that I can be, I decided to see if I could find something else that was acceptable to you. :) Now, don't take me seriously!!
All joking aside: Actually, what you say about the Bible is the way I felt before I met a pastor who was 75 years old and could explain it in such a way as to de-program parsonage-itis out of me. And, after I was de-programmed that is when my father let me know that he had been *brain-washed* by the denomination he had pastored in for over 40 years.
When I learned to understand the Bible was what it said -- and that *this didn't mean this* and *that didn't mean that*, I was set free.
Like I have stated before. The Old Testament is 4,000 years from Adam to Jesus and is Jesus' genealogy. In other words, the family lineage of Jesus is given with the good, bad and indifferent. The family tree is very interesting when I started to pay attention as to who was being talked about -- who it was - and who was who. The who, why, what, when and where meant I was studying the why's as much as to whom was being addressed. Taking into account Genetics made the OT interesting to me also.
One day on my way home from work, I was sitting at a stop light listening to a pastor on Christian Radio, and he made a statement that all of a sudden made sense -- he said that the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5, 6, and 7, was not for today, but was for the kingdom in the future. When he said that, it was like a lightning flash of truth hit me. All of a sudden I knew that I didn't have to try to be *poor in spirit*, etc. But, then he said that St. Paul and his epistles were for today as St. Paul is talking to the Gentiles, and we are Gentiles. It made sense. Also, St. Paul for emphasis in Galatians 1:8 and 9, -- *If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached, let him be accursed.* [The biggest problem for me was that I was reared on the Old Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Hebrews through Revelation.--when I found out that this wasn't applicable to my way of living -- I was really set free.]
St. Paul is the one who teaches God's grace toward mankind. Tells us in Romans 1:21 why the Jews were set aside, so God could deal with all of mankind. They are still in apostacy, as they will not receive Jesus as their Messiah, as a nation. In a future time, they will accept Jesus, and when they do, the Kingdom Age will be.
When I discovered that St. Paul in the first Chapter of Ephesians gives us the KEY to understanding who is being spoken to -- wheee!!! Ephesians 1:4 -- *God chose us in Jesus before the foundation of the earth.*
I looked up *foundation of the earth* and found out that there are three things - there is *from* *after* and *before*. St. Paul here said we are *before*. *After and from* the foundation are always talking to the Jews. I had heard as a young girl that there was a KEY, but no one could tell me what it was. When I discovered this was how to tell WHO is being spoken to -- it was freedom!!
I'll leave it here for now. If you are interested in more of this, let me know and I will help or send you in the direction I started at--thea
Observer
<mayorskid@gmail.com>I am afraid that you have not answered the question . You quoted the
bible which can not logically be used to substantiate the bible.
Talk about brainwashed , you are owned by an insidious master of the
process. And you were done no good thereby.
All you have said to us is that you believe the bible because someone
told you to which , if you will forgive me for saying so, Is
exceedingly inane.
Have you no understanding of critical thought ? Do you not know how to
reason using scientific method?
What scientiffically verifiable proof have you that the legends
proffered in the bible are any more then wild flights of fantasy
produced by ignorant goat Neolithic herders?
I am sorry but you have been egregiously deceived.
Please dig deep and see if you can give us verifiable data to
substantiate that this hodgepodge of metaphysical nonsense .
If not in that same digging try to analyze why anyone should believe
such inane stories.
Regards
Psychonomist
philosophy
<smwilson@tpg.com.au>I am free too, but did not need to go through
what you did. So enjoy your life, and don't be
so serious. Be happy!
yarrido@aol.com
<yarrido@aol.com>doesn't make any sense from git-go. The new testament, at least, did
not exist in its compiled form in the first century church but was a
collection of letter and other documents that were passed among the
believers and widely accepted by them. They were written by, not only
one, but multiple writers that claimed to have either directly
witnessed the events they wrote about or carefully investigated those
events and people who were eye-witnesses written about in their
writings. Now, to say that all the books of what we know today as the
bible were a part of it as a single publication rather than numerous
sources is just plain disinformation.
Consider this...if we were to find new ancient manuscripts that
contained a whole new book and examined its contents and and found
them to be completely consistent with the writings of the four gospels
and indeed the whole of new testament and scholars and theologians and
church leaders would all come to the conclusion that this is a
heretofore unknown, yet canonical gospel that should be included in
the new testament...is it then an appropriate document to substantiate
the bible only until it is incorporated into the bible and then it is
something that cannot be logically used to substantiate the bible?
What sort of sense does that kind of reasoning really make?
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com>> Consider this...if we were to find new ancient manuscripts that
> contained a whole new book and examined its contents and and found
> them to be completely consistent with the writings of the four gospels
with the 4 canonical ones? Dan Barker, in his Easter Challenge,
claimed that is not possible to write an account of Jesus'
resurrection in a way that is consistent with all 4 canonical gospels?
thea nob
<thea.nob4@gmail.com>yarrido@aol.com
<yarrido@aol.com>On Jul 6, 8:07 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
subject?
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com>On Jul 7, 11:48 am, "yarr...@aol.com" <yarr...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jul 6, 8:07 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
>
> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 6, 2:37 pm, "yarr...@aol.com" <yarr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > Consider this...if we were to find new ancient manuscripts that
> > > contained a whole new book and examined its contents and and found
> > > them to be completely consistent with the writings of the four gospels
>
> > Is it possible to write a new gospel that is completely consistent
> > with the 4 canonical ones? Dan Barker, in his Easter Challenge,
> > claimed that is not possible to write an account of Jesus'
> That was not my illustration or my argument. Why are you changing the
> subject?
canonical gospels. The question of whether such a book is possible is
relevant to your scenario.
Observer
<mayorskid@gmail.com>Let's get to the nut cutting.
Contained in this wildly flight of primitive imaginations are the
following:
a god
angels
demons
heaven
hell
It you have not been egregiously deceived by superstitious bullshit ,
then you should be able to supply scientifically verifiable proof of
their existence.
You can not , no man/woman ever has. What can not be verified through
scientific method is useless.
Your bible is wild ass superstition .
Jesus is just an other god fraud.
Regards
Psychonomist
Now, to say that all the books of what we know today as the
> bible were a part of it as a single publication rather than numerous
> sources is just plain disinformation.
> Consider this...if we were to find new ancient manuscripts that
> contained a whole new book and examined its contents and and found
> them to be completely consistent with the writings of the four gospels
> and indeed the whole of new testament and scholars and theologians and
> church leaders would all come to the conclusion that this is a
> heretofore unknown, yet canonical gospel that should be included in
> the new testament...is it then an appropriate document to substantiate
> the bible only until it is incorporated into the bible and then it is
> something that cannot be logically used to substantiate the bible?
Observer
Bull shit . Explain why anyone should believe in the "other worldly"
crap.
Psychonomist
>
> - Show quoted text -
thea nob
<thea.nob4@gmail.com>Observer
<mayorskid@gmail.com>On Jul 7, 12:25 pm, "thea nob" <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> All I can say is that I know my God is alive!!!
You apparently have lost the ability to understand the difference
between believing and knowing. So sad.
And that is the reason so
> many fight so hard against Christianity -- because it is a *know-so
> salvation*!!! And, to get it all I had to do was believe that *God raised
> Jesus from the dead*
Idiotic superstitious bull shit. Jesus is just another god fraud.
Romans 10:9.
> And, yes I know it sounds weird!! however, not having a God must be the
> worst thing that can happen to a person. I know I am a preacher's kid and a
> believer which is rare! And yes, philosophy at the u of CA certainly did
> nothing to make me a believer -- however, I lucked out apx. 50 years ago
> because my prof. knew I had been brain washed in a denominational church and
> so played the devil's advocate - and made me know that I had to search out
> the answers for myself. So I did. I was certain I understood how to get
> the power of God to work in my life through all my problems. The secret is
> well hidden in the Bible, it is "OFFER UNTO GOD (JESUS) THANKSGIVING"
I owe the bastard nothing especially any thanks. The wounderful
quality of my life for the past forty years lies in my escape from
the sewer of christian filth.
> Psalms 50: 14-15 works if you work it. IN THE DAY OF TROUBLE, CALL ON ME
> (JESUS), I WILL DELIVER YOU, AND YOU WILL PRAISE (GIVE THANKS) TO ME!!!
I hope you never have dire occasion of trouble wherein you depend on
this god fraud to help you.
It
> works -- try it -- it works, because if it works for little ole ladies like
> me - it will work for you!! IF YOU GIVE THE SACRIFICE OF PRAISE (Hebrews
> and Psalms) - the answers come quickly.
> thea
You are so immersed in ignorance and superstition that there is little
hope for your recovery. Sorry about that.
I wish you well
Psychonomist
thea nob
<thea.nob4@gmail.com>Observer
On Jul 7, 12:25 pm, "thea nob" <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> All I can say is that I know my God is alive!!!
You apparently have lost the ability to understand the difference
between believing and knowing. So sad.
Observer
And that is the reason so
> many fight so hard against Christianity -- because it is a *know-so
> salvation*!!! And, to get it all I had to do was believe that *God raised
> Jesus from the dead*
Idiotic superstitious bull shit. Jesus is just another god fraud.
Observer
Romans 10:9.
> And, yes I know it sounds weird!! however, not having a God must be the
> worst thing that can happen to a person. I know I am a preacher's kid and a
> believer which is rare! And yes, philosophy at the u of CA certainly did
> nothing to make me a believer -- however, I lucked out apx. 50 years ago
> because my prof. knew I had been brain washed in a denominational church and
> so played the devil's advocate - and made me know that I had to search out
> the answers for myself. So I did. I was certain I understood how to get
> the power of God to work in my life through all my problems. The secret is
> well hidden in the Bible, it is "OFFER UNTO GOD (JESUS) THANKSGIVING"
I owe the bastard nothing especially any thanks. The wounderful
quality of my life for the past forty years lies in my escape from
the sewer of christian filth.
Observer
> Psalms 50: 14-15 works if you work it. IN THE DAY OF TROUBLE, CALL ON ME
> (JESUS), I WILL DELIVER YOU, AND YOU WILL PRAISE (GIVE THANKS) TO ME!!!
I hope you never have dire occasion of trouble wherein you depend on
this god fraud to help you.
Observer
It
> works -- try it -- it works, because if it works for little ole ladies like
> me - it will work for you!! IF YOU GIVE THE SACRIFICE OF PRAISE (Hebrews
> and Psalms) - the answers come quickly.
> thea
You are so immersed in ignorance and superstition that there is little
hope for your recovery. Sorry about that.
I wish you well
Psychonomist
>
>
Keith MacNevins
<kmacnevins@gmail.com>Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>
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Enters Renegade Pleidians and Alpha Centaurians http://nevernwo.blogspot.com/
The Atlanteans then began forming alliances with renegade Pleidians and Alpha Centaurians (which had hierarchical systems of government) to further develop their technologies
25,000 Years BC
Atlantis declares War against Mu and Allies http://ne vernwo.blogspot.com/
Earth's Second Moon and Great Flood
After waiting patiently for many years for just the right moment to attack the Lemurian empire, the Atlanteans decided to attack and destroy Lemuria with the help of their renegade allies. They would accomplish this by taking the Earth's other moon (Earth had 2 moons in those times) out of orbit by using force fields until it was as close as
possible to the Lemurian empire, and then the moon was destroyed resulting in a catastrophic shower of meteors. This destroyed much of Lemuria, but this also resulted in many pressures being inflicted upon the tectonic plates : resulting in the gas chambers under Lemuria to implode and thus sink most of the Lemurian continent.
From Atlantis To The Great Flood Shamballah or the Kingdom of Agartha
Yu empire would not bow down to the hierarchical rule of Atlantis and Libyan/Egyptian empires and was thus forced to literally go underground. Today, they form what is known as the Kingdom of Agartha or Shamballah. Atlantis forms 10 ruling districts, each with its own King. These Kings together formed the governing council of Atlantis.
25,000 - 15,000 Years BC
The Kingship Lines Are Established
The royal governing council of Atlantis decide that a new form of government was desperately needed in which a superior ruling class could be established and sustained by their pretense that they had been empowered by a God-Force. Autocracy was thus born and was in full control enforcing a period of peace and stability (One World Government)
Dna Manipulation Takes Place Reducing man's consciousness and making them more controllable (slaves)
They also started experimenting with peoples' DNA and genetics in order to make them more controllable. This also resulted in peoples consciousness being reduced, life spans contracted, and psychic/spiritual abilities decreasing dramatically.
15,000 - 10,000 Years BC
More War ..Catastrophies Noah's Flood
Throughout the years there are many wars among the various empires due to underground movements of people that wanted to have the Lemurian "philosophy" back in place (i.e. no hierarchy). These wars led to vast destruction. As a last resort the warring empires decided to attack the opponents crystal temples (which were responsible for maintaining two frozen layers of water about 15,000 - 30,000 feet above ground which protected people on Earth from the harmful sun's rays and also ensured
a stable weather pattern at all times) Unfortunately, the attacks were made simultaneously and caused the Firmament (the water layers) to be broken down and thus millions of gallons of water thus poured down onto the surface causing what is known biblically as "The Great Flood" (6000 years ago) The breakdown of the Firmament also resulted in the polar icecaps freezing and also the many climatic variations we have today to form.
After The Flood
Only about 2 million people survived the Flood (from an original 65 million). Unfortunately many of the survivors were the mutant humans (the ones that had been genetically altered by the Atlanteans into a much lower state of consciousness). Also, the fact that the firmament was now no longer in existence resulted in the DNA and thus
consciousness breaking down even further.
The Gods Descended
A few different renegades (from Pleides, Alpha and Beta Centauri) came to different places on Earth after the Flood, seeing it as an opportune time to establish their own desired ideologies and also be seen as "godlike" and thus reverenced (since there were mainly only mutant humans left). The humans were therefore easily controlled by these
renegades.
Establishing A Kingship Line of "Divine Right"
Since no form of disobedience to these new "gods" was allowed, the concept of ruling by "divine right" became inculcated on Earth. This concept of worshipping an elite has continued through to modern times. Culture would rise against culture in wars claiming that the elite they themselves worshipped were superior to the elite of the opposing
faction. - We are now in times, though, that will finally bring to an end an approximate 10,000 years of "semi-consciousness" and regain our full consciousness that we deserve. This will be due to our entire solar system coming into contact with what is known as the "Photon Belt" . This is predicted by the Mayan Calendar to be 2012, December Reference : You Are Becoming a Galactic Human by Washta, Virginia Essene, Sheldon Nidle
DATING 'INTELLIGENT' MAN BACK 65 MILLION YEARS Yes, Maybe Man Goes Back even further than what even Sheldon Nidle thinks .
Although Science digs their heels in when it comes to dating man back further than thousands of years ago, they do agree than dinosaurs have been around for millions of years. But if we can put man with dinosaurs than science must concede that man is millions of years old as well.
. In the riverbed of the Raluxy River in Texas, people found some footprints of dinosaurs that existed in the Cretaceous period.
Archaeologists were amazed when they found 12 fossils of human footprints only 18.5 inches away from the footprints of dinosaurs. Furthermore, one of the human footprints overlaps with a dinosaur footprint. Scientists cut the fossils, and found that there were some traces of compression in the section under the footprint, which proved that this fossil couldn’t have been counterfeited. And in the same terrain nearby, scientists found a fossil of a human finger and a man-made hammer.
In a cave in Peru, people found thousands of artworks made of stones that dated back to 200 million years ago. There are surprising pictures on some of them: a pilot was operating a strange flying object above a herd of dinosaurs, and some people were
attacking the dinosaur with axes!
Obviously, highly developed human beings once coexisted with dinosaurs. Scientists have found that dinosaurs died out suddenly 65 million years ago, a fact that still
cannot be explained....or can it? A possible explanation would be that a catastrophe happened at that time and destroyed the human civilization and most species of animals, including the dinosaurs. This conforms with Sheldon Nidle's history for that time.
1.6 The city of Mohenjodaro was destroyed because of suddenly raised temperature.
The site of the city of Mohenjodaro was found in the valley of the Indus River in today’s Pakistan. The excavation began in 1920 and has revealed that people at that time had achieved a highly developed culture comparable to the modern cosmopolitan culture. Houses were built with fired bricks. And in every household, there was an all but
perfect drainage system. Water from upstairs toilets could be passed from pipes in the wall into the sewers, and there were access points in the sewers for regular cleaning! Furthermore, some households were even equipped with special rubbish bins so that they could discard rubbish from upstairs. Many human remains were found in the site of the city. These people were not buried in the tombs but looked like they had died suddenly. One of the excavators said: “Obviously, all of them died suddenly because of some kind of abrupt change.” It can be confirmed that the ruin of the city and the death of its inhabitants were caused by suddenly raised temperature.
These cities were suddenly destroyed at the peak of their prosperity over one night 1200 years ago. Why did they perish so suddenly?
Archaeologists presume that an intense earthquake could have destroyed these cities.
This earthquake might have happened in 7th or 8th century AD, because the coins and treasure found by the divers were all of the Byzantine period. Archaeologists tried to describe what happened on that disastrous night some 1200 years ago: a huge earthquake tore the city into parts, and a deep abyss appeared in the central area of the
cities. Water ejected from the crack to the sky, swallowing streets, buildings and people instantly. More and more water surged into the cities, and the earth went deep into the sea. Soon the cities disappeared from the surface of the sea. Countless lives were buried at sea; almost nobody could have escaped from this disaster. Reference:
http://www.zhengjian.org/sci/sci/home/newscontent.asp?ID=10682
Interesting isn't it -- can't believe the Bible - but you can believe this then, can't you??
theaBlessed are the cracked,
for they are the ones,
that let the light in.
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Observer
<mayorskid@gmail.com>On Tuesday, July 8, 2008 9:00:39 AM UTC-7, thea nob wrote:
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 4:17 AM, Observer <mayo...@gmail.com> wrote:
Observer
On Jul 7, 12:25 pm, "thea nob" <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> All I can say is that I know my God is alive!!!
You apparently have lost the ability to understand the difference
between believing and knowing. So sad.
Believing is knowing through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said HE would send a comforter to us (the Holy Spirit) and HE did!So -- believing is a knowing!!I just feel so sorry that you could not have been at a place where you would know that the Holy Spirit was there. Few so-called churches know anything about Jesus. Oh, they can talk a good stick - but that is all there is. And the ones that seem to know more have the 7-11 song services which are hype a song with 11 words sung 7 times. It hypes the audience!! Ain't religion fun??!!But, there is something more if you are willing to search personally for it. And you have to do the work. God says when you search for ME with your whole heart - I will come to you!! I will heal your land - remember Job in the OT. Whee! he had everything, but lost it all, and then gained it all back because HE would not say that GOD did it to him. So, Job ends up better off than he was at the first. Where are you going?theaObserver
And that is the reason so
> many fight so hard against Christianity -- because it is a *know-so
> salvation*!!! And, to get it all I had to do was believe that *God raised
> Jesus from the dead*
Idiotic superstitious bull shit. Jesus is just another god fraud.
I know that MY JESUS is not a fraud. HE does what HE says HE will do in the Bible. And exactly like HE said HE did.Do you remember the story of Israel when they came out of Egypt? Do you remember the story of the Death Angel going through Egypt and everyone losing their first-born? God protected only the ones who had put the blood on their door posts. They couldn't put it on their neighbors, they couldn't take care of their Egyptian friends, they could only put it on their own door post. And, guess what, God protected the ones that did what HE said to do. Sounds silly, doesn't it. But today GOD in Jesus Christ says, come to me and I will take care of you. God is saying to us today, believe that I raised MY SON FROM THE DEAD, and I will accept you.thea
====Three Reasons Why I Know God Does Not Exist, by Jack Maurice of Orlando Freethinkers and Humanists
1) Lack of empirical scientific evidence or proof
“What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.” – Christopher Hitchens
Jack
Historically, all gods are considered nothing more than myths. Over 2,500 gods have been worshipped to date which is strong evidence our ancestors used gods for political power and reassurance for their belief in the afterlife. Ask yourself, of all those gods what are the odds of your god being the right one? Or if you were born in the Middle East would you believe in the Christian god or in the Islamic faith? Could it be your faith is predetermined by the country of your birth or determined by the faith of your parents?
In reality, the religious or theists aren’t any different than atheists. We are all born atheists. No child is born believing in the miraculous conception of Jesus, that Muhammad is a prophet or that Joseph Smith was chosen by God to spread Mormonism. Rather children are taught, mostly by their parents/guardians, to believe religious doctrines. But even those who are self-identified as Christians, Jews, Muslims or any other religion are still atheists in respect to other Gods. Therefore, if you’re ever asked, do you believe in God you can honestly reply, ‘which one?’ Don’t forget some of the very first people to be called atheists were Christians.
2) Lack of reason, critical and reality-based thinking
By definition, faith and belief is not based on truth or facts, but typically on personal opinions, emotion experiences. Fear of death, guilt and the condemnation to hell are also huge motivators that adhere to religious beliefs. For example, there is no evidence to refute that heaven and hell are nothing else except human volitional inventions created to control people’s behavior via hope and fear. Furthermore, most believers and religious faithful tend to be more susceptible to following or believing authority figures (i.e. clergy, politicians etc.) rather than using critical thinking skills to question non-reality-based concepts.
Think about it, how many reasonably normal people today believe in unicorns, fairies, and leprechauns? How about werewolves and zombies? Rightfully so, the beliefs in these story-book mythological characters, for the most part have disappeared. But unfortunately the ‘business’ of religion continues to perpetuate the existence of their heaven, hell, and the afterlife therefore stunting the evolutionary growth of human-kind.
3) I don’t believe in god because… I’ve read the bible
And I’ve also studied the Ten Commandments’ (all of them) which is the supposed believers guide for their morals and ethics. But unfortunately, the bible is a blatantly repulsive, (Isaiah 13, Hosea 13, Numbers 31), sexist (1 Corinthians 14, 1 Tim 2) and immoral diatribe against the human race. It’s a loosely written collection of allegorical stories (parables), fables and mystical tales designed to control primitive uneducated, starving, and easily manipulated people. In conclusion, with respect to morals and ethics you need to ask yourself these two questions: 1) name a moral statement or action, uttered or performed by a religious person that could not have been uttered or performed by an unbeliever?, and 2) if the god of whom the Bible speaks is a loving, forgiving, peaceful deity then why does he speak of the following tenets?
a) Demand that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath. – (Exodus 31:15)
b) Command us to kill teenagers who drink too much. (Deuteronomy 21)
c) Empower us to enslave people of other nations. – (Leviticus 25:44, Titus 2:9, and Exodus 21:20)
d) Command that we oppress women and kill people who happen to be homosexual. – (Leviticus 20:13)
Observer
Romans 10:9.
> And, yes I know it sounds weird!! however, not having a God must be the
> worst thing that can happen to a person. I know I am a preacher's kid and a
> believer which is rare! And yes, philosophy at the u of CA certainly did
> nothing to make me a believer -- however, I lucked out apx. 50 years ago
> because my prof. knew I had been brain washed in a denominational church and
> so played the devil's advocate - and made me know that I had to search out
> the answers for myself. So I did. I was certain I understood how to get
> the power of God to work in my life through all my problems. The secret is
> well hidden in the Bible, it is "OFFER UNTO GOD (JESUS) THANKSGIVING"
I owe the bastard nothing especially any thanks. The wounderful
quality of my life for the past forty years lies in my escape from
the sewer of christian filth.
Yep! and all that is requested is that we say THANK YOU, JESUS. Simple - so simple a child can do it. I can agree that a lot of what I was taught as a child was filth. But, as an adult I cannot have that as an excuse for my own laziness. For ultimately, I have to stand on what I believe - and if by chance, there is a judgement - I can guarantee you that you will not be able to play the *blame game*!!theaObserver
> Psalms 50: 14-15 works if you work it. IN THE DAY OF TROUBLE, CALL ON ME
> (JESUS), I WILL DELIVER YOU, AND YOU WILL PRAISE (GIVE THANKS) TO ME!!!
I hope you never have dire occasion of trouble wherein you depend on
this god fraud to help you.
My Jesus has come to my rescue many times. I have lived this way for a good number of years now, and I can guarantee that anyone who makes JESUS LORD -- by saying THANK YOU, JESUS will discover blessings and all the good things GOD has to offer HIS PEOPLE. And when trouble comes, I found the cure-all in Psalms 50:14 and 15. Offer unto God Thanksgiving, and in the day of trouble call on HIM, HE will delivery you, and YOU SHALL PRAISE HIM!! You see I worked this -- and I know it works!! If GOD will do something for little ole' ladies like me, I know HE IS BIG ENOUGH to do miracles for YOU TOO!!!thea
Like most people (especially those raised Christian, like I was), I had always assumed that Jesus Christ had really existed, even though he may not have been divine. After examining the biblical, extra-biblical, and early Christian evidence, along with the myths of the time, I have concluded that there is no reliable evidence that Jesus actually existed — and significant evidence that he was purely mythical.
Biblical Evidence
The typically accepted story of Jesus is a hodge-podge of stories primarily from the gospels, from Paul and the other epistle writers, and from the book of Revelation. The first step is to separate these sources, to see what the authors wrote about. This is made difficult by the fact that there's been significant editing, copying, and even forgery. The authors, editors and transcribers did not treat the writings as sacrosanct and unchangeable. Instead, they often treated the stories of Jesus as tales that could be modified to further their own agendas, or to make for better tales. [1]
The apocalyptic book of Revelation gives no support for the historicity of Jesus and can be dismissed easily as a reliable source, because of its other-worldly, hallucinogenic images.
The earliest known references to Jesus are in the writings of Paul (ne Saul of Tarsus), who had a “vision” of Jesus while he was on the road to Damascus. Paul's writings are part of the epistles, which were written after 48 CE [Common Era, equivalent to A.D.]. If there had been an actual Jesus, Paul should have written about his life and teachings. He didn't (except for a few well-known interpolations). [1] Paul and the other epistle writers — including Peter — don't seem to have known any biographical details of Jesus' life, or even the time of his earthly existence. They don't refer to Bethlehem, Nazareth, Galilee, Calvary or Golgotha — or any pilgrimages to what should have been holy sites of Jesus' life. They also don't mention any miracles that Jesus was supposed to have worked, his moral teachings, his virgin birth, his trial, the empty tomb, or even his disciples. [1]
I find this astounding! The most basic details that we've been told about Jesus' life were unknown to the earliest Christian authors. It wasn't that they simply neglected to mention these details. There were many places that Paul and the others could have referred to the disciples or used Jesus' moral authority to emphasize their own points, but they didn't. [1] The simple explanation is that these details didn't exist yet, and wouldn't exist until the gospels were written about twenty or more years later.
To the epistle writers, Jesus appears to have had little or no earthly existence. [2] Paul is anything but a witness for the actual existence of Jesus, explicitly saying that he never met Jesus but just saw him in his “vision.” Paul and Peter refer to themselves as apostles (messengers), not disciples (followers). Paul said he was not inferior to “super-apostles” who preached of a different Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:5 and 12:11), and he explicitly opposed Peter (Galatians 2:11) — which makes no sense if Peter had physically known Jesus. Paul also describes both his own and Peter's “vision” of Jesus using the same word. [1] This means that Paul didn't think that Peter followed an earthly Jesus, but (like him) a spiritual sky god savior that could only be known thru revelation. This savior was a spiritual intermediary between God in Heaven and men on Earth. Paul even admitted that that all his ideas came from revelation and not from any man. [3] In other words, he made it up or got his inspiration from Jewish Scripture and other religions. Two prime candidates are Zoroastrianism and Mithraism, which had a center in Paul's hometown of Tarsus.
Jewish Scripture was the main source for Paul [1], probably using the Greek translation (called the Septuagint) [4]. He thought that the heavenly existence of its predicted messiah was revealed to him by God (Galatians 1:16) and in Scripture, with Jesus as the spiritual intermediary between heavenly God and earthly man — not as a recent living person, but as a mystery hidden for long ages past [5], or to be revealed. [6] Paul often referred to Jesus as “The Christ” (a spiritual term). Even the name “Jesus” appears some 218 times in the Septuagint, so it was not a new name to those familiar with the translation [4]. Paul also never even indicated when Jesus' life, sacrificial death and resurrection occurred, but implied that they had happened in the spiritual past. He also blamed Jesus' death on evil demons, not the Jews or the Romans as in the gospels. Paul's concept of an unblemished, sacrificial, humiliated savior came out of Isaiah 52-53 and Daniel 9. [1] This idea helped make Christianity more popular among the lower classes during the first couple of centuries. They could identify with a righteous man unjustly crucified by the despised ruling class, but who was eventually triumphant. [7]
Another problem with Paul is that his famous “vision” of Jesus has all the earmarks of an epileptic brain seizure. We now know that epilepsy can cause religious delusions, hyperreligiosity (excessive concern with religion), hypersexuality (excessive concern with sexual matters), and hypergraphia (an overwhelming urge to write). These are all characteristics that could be used to describe Paul, as revealed in his letters. Perhaps epilepsy is the “thorn” that tormented him, which he referred to in 2 Corinthians 12:7. We can also tell that people were accusing Paul of lying, because he attempted to defend himself in Romans 3:5-8.
The main biblical references to Jesus are in the gospels, which were written by unknown authors after 70 CE (and quite possibly decades later). In a semi-literate and superstitious society, that's a long time after Jesus' supposed life — a long time for myths to grow. Most scholars agree that the first mention of what we call the gospels was by Papias in about 140 CE [8], altho he only referred to Mark and Matthew. All four gospels are first mentioned by name in 180 CE, by Irenaeus of Lyons. [8]
Mark is the earliest gospel. It is ungrammatical [9] and betrays its author's lack of knowledge of the geography and social situation of Palestine — showing that the author was not a local. [8], [10] Luke copied the error in geography (Luke 8), while Matthew changed the location and number of men (Matthew 8). [8] Mark's author also made the mistake of having Jesus quote from the Greek translation of Scripture (the Septuagint), instead of the original Hebrew. [8] Both Mark and John begin with Jesus already a grown man — with no virgin birth, magic star, or other childhood stories. A strong case can even be made that the gospel of Mark was written as a re-telling of the Homeric epics. [11]
The gospels of Matthew and Luke disagree on the year and other details of Jesus' birth, including his lineage. Matthew has him born in the Bethlehem home of Joseph, during the reign of Herod the Great (who died in 5 or 4 BCE [Before Common Era]). Luke thinks he was born in a stable during the census conducted by Quirinius in 6 CE — a difference of at least 9 years! Matthew didn't write about the census, and Luke didn't write about the wise men or Herod's “slaughter of the innocents.” Matthew and Luke disagree wildly on Jesus' ancestry, including even his grandfather. (Matthew 1:16, Luke 3:23). Plus, the lists in Matthew and Luke differ from 1 Chronicles 3. Note that even listing Jesus' male ancestry disagrees with the doctrine of a virgin birth (which was added later in the myth-making process). Some apologists claim that Luke lists Mary's geneology, but that's impossible because Mary isn't mentioned and because at the time women were not thought to contribute any genetics to a baby, but were thought of as a fertile field where the seed (Greek: “sperm”) was planted.
If the gospels were written by eyewitnesses, why did they wait so long and why don't they describe Jesus? Why were the gospels written mainly in third person format (like a story), instead of first person format? The gospels often quote Jesus' thoughts or words when he was alone or with other people. These are examples of fictional narratives, not history. Why do the gospels of Matthew and Luke plagiarize much of Mark (and add the childhood stories)? Of Mark's 666 original verses, some 600 appear in Matthew (with improved grammar), some 300 in Luke. [9] The gospel of Matthew oddly refers to Matthew in the third person. The gospel of Luke states that it was written as a retelling of previous accounts. The gospel of John also oddly refers to its supposed author in the third person, and hardly refers to Jesus as a real person with a real life. Like Paul, the author viewed Jesus as more of a sky god.
We know that the gospels have been changed over time, with editing and errors by transcribers, and even material differences between the different translations. [8] Biblical scholars have shown that the last twelve verses of Mark (16:9-20) were added in the second century, likely to give Jesus post-resurrection activities. The story of Jesus and the adulteress (a favorite of mine because it teaches personal responsibility) was not in the original gospel of John. Evidence shows that it was likely added in the Middle Ages. [12]
Why should we trust the unknown authors and editors of the gospels? How do we know that they weren't wacky or knowingly writing fiction? We can even tell that the authors attempted to fulfill scriptural prophesy, because they got it wrong in many places: [13]
- Jesus was born in Bethlehem to (incorrectly) fulfill Micah 5:2.
- Matthew and Luke disagree on Jesus' male ancestry, and thus also with the virgin birth.
- Mary was a virgin to (incorrectly) fulfill Isaiah 7:14.
- Jesus' family went to Egypt to (incorrectly) fulfill Hosea 11:1.
- Herod did the “slaughter of the innocents” to (incorrectly) fulfill Jeremiah 31:15.
- Jesus was from Nazareth to (incorrectly) fulfill Judges 13:5.
- On Palm Sunday Jesus impossibly rode two animals at once to (incorrectly) fulfill Zechariah 9:9.
- Jesus' hands and feet were pierced on the cross to (incorrectly) fulfill Psalm 22:16.
- Judas was paid 30 pieces of silver to (incorrectly) fulfill Zechariah 11:12.
There's even reliable evidence that Nazareth was uninhabited at the time of Jesus. [8], [14], [15] In an attempt to show that Jesus fulfilled scriptural prophesy, the unknown author of Matthew apparently confused “Nazareth” and “Nazarene” (a person from Nazareth) with “Nazirite” (a man who lives apart and has made a vow of abstinence). [13]
These errors aren't too surprising if you realize that the authors' native tongue was probably Aramaic, the (Old Testament) Scripture was originally in Hebrew, and they were writing the gospels in Greek.
All this disqualifies the gospels as any sort of reliable eyewitness accounts. For more insights on the reliability of miracles or eyewitnesses, here are useful quotes:
“No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle unless that testimony be of such a kind that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish.”
— David Hume, Of Miracles (1748)“Is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is, therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie.”
— Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)“It is a fact of history and of current events that human beings exaggerate, misinterpret, or wrongly remember events. They have also fabricated pious fraud. Most believers in a religion understand this when examining the claims of other religions.”
— Dan Barker [16]
Christian historicity researcher David Fitzgerald wrote, “In the earliest Christian writings, such as the seven genuine epistles of Paul, Christ is a spiritual being revealed in Jewish Scripture, rather than a recent historical figure. Decades later the anonymous author of what we call ‘The gospel according to Mark’ wrote an allegorical story of this mythological Christ set in pre-war Judea, borrowing from many ancient religious and literary motifs. The idea of a Christ come to earth was irresistible; later Christians loved the story and couldn't help but make their own corrections and additions to ‘Mark's’ text, turning a purely literary creation into the basis of their own imagined biographies. Dozens of these gospels were written, and centuries later four of them were eventually selected to form the beginning of our familiar New Testament.” [17]
Some early Christians even admitted the mythical origins of Christianity. Arguing with pagans around 150 CE, Justin Martyr said, “When we say that the Word, who is the first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus).” [16]
The Jesus story reeks of mythology, with magic being added as the story was re-told over time. [16] If the earliest Christians thought of Jesus as a spiritual sky god, his appearance in the later gospels as a living man must have been a fictional creation.
Some people claim that many of Jesus' disciples and apostles died for their beliefs, and this proves that Jesus must have existed and been divine. However we don't even know if the disciples existed, much less how they died. All of the information about them comes from later stories and the Bible, which we've seen is highly questionable. Even if the stories about the apostles are true, they could easily have been deluded or crazy.
Other Religions and Myths of the Time
Studying other religions and myths of the time, and the (non-orthodox) competing versions of Christianity, is complicated by the fact that many of their texts and references to them were not copied or were destroyed by faithful Christians (especially during the notorious book-burnings of the fourth and fifth centuries). Once a Christian sect gained absolute political power under Emperor Constantine in the fourth century, opponents were compelled by threat of death, prison, or dispossession to fall in line. [7]
Christianity has many similarities to what we know of previous religions from Greece, Persia, Egypt and still other places — and is by no means unique. There were more than a dozen other deities and saviors (Mithra, Osiris/Serapis, Inanna/Ishtar, Horus, Perseus, Bacchus, Attis, Hermes, Adonis, Hercules/Heracles, Tammuz, Asclepius, and Prometheus) who were resurrected after violent deaths. Many of these gods had their births announced by stars, had a virgin mother and divine father (or other miraculous birth), or had tyrants try to kill them as infants. The two main Christian holidays were incorporated from earlier pagan rituals and festivals. Easter (near the spring equinox, and with its fertility symbols of rabbits and eggs) was named after the pagan Anglo-Saxon goddess Eostre. Christmas was formerly the Roman festival Saturnalia (for the god Saturn), and more than a dozen gods were born on December 25 (the old winter solstice, when the sun is “reborn” and starts rising in the sky) — Jesus, Mithra, Zeus/Jupiter, Horus, Attis, Dionysus, Adonis, Tammuz, Hercules/Heracles, Perseus, Bacchus, Apollo, Helios, and Sol Invictus.
Mithra had the most similarities to Jesus. Mithra was born in very humble circumstances with shepherds watching, had twelve disciples (as in twelve signs of the zodiac), raised the dead, was often depicted with a halo, and was known as “The Light of the World” and “The Good Shepherd.” After he died, he joined God to judge the souls of the dead. Thru him sinners could be reborn into eternal life. Because Mithra was a sun god, he was worshipped on Sundays. His followers had ritual meals of bread and wine, which represented his flesh and blood. It's not surprising that Mithraism died out as Christianity spread.
The Christian custom of the Eucharist (with bread and wine) was likely derived by Paul from Mithraism, because drinking blood has always been an abomination in Judaism.
Former fundamentalist Robert M Price wrote, “In broad outline and in detail, the life of Jesus as portrayed in the gospels corresponds to the worldwide Mythic Hero Archetype in which a divine hero's birth is supernaturally predicted and conceived, the infant hero escapes attempts to kill him, demonstrates his precocious wisdom already as a child, receives a divine commission, defeats demons, wins acclaim, is hailed as king, then betrayed, losing popular favor, executed, often on a hilltop, and is vindicated and taken up to heaven.” [18]
Extra-Biblical Evidence
As for the extra-biblical historicity of Jesus, there is absolutely no reliable contemporary evidence that he ever even existed. He made no impression on any historian of the first century. If Jesus existed or if the spectacular events in the gospels really happened, they would have been noted by many writers — including Philo of Alexandria (who wrote extensively about Judea during the alleged time of Jesus), Seneca the Elder, Pliny the Elder, Justus of Tiberius, and over thirty others. [8], [17] None of these men referred to Jesus or the fantastical biblical events. The earliest extra-biblical supposed references to Jesus or Christ are in one paragraph and one sentence in the writings (about 93 CE) attributed to the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (who also wrote about Hercules). Here are the supposed references, in his Jewish Antiquities:
18.3.3 — “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”
20.9.1 — “...brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James...”
The sentence is far too brief to mean much. The phrase "who was called Christ" is awkward and was likely inserted by a transcriber. Plus, a few lines later Josephus refers to Jesus, the son of Damneus. This is likely the Jesus referred to in the sentence. [17] The paragraph looks like just about everything a Christian could hope for, to prove that Jesus actually existed. Unfortunately, it's an obvious latter insertion — almost certainly created by “church historian” Eusebius, who first referred to it shortly before Emperor Constantine's Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. We know this for several reasons:
- Despite the fact that Josephus' writings were widely read, no Christian or scholar before Eusebius refers to it, especially not the Christian scholar Origen, whose library Eusebius used. [8], [17]
- Origen even wrote that Josephus did not believe in Jesus Christ. [8]
- If the pious Jew Josephus had truly thought that Jesus was the Messiah, he would have become a Christian.
- It's unlikely that Josephus would have referred to the accusing Jews as “the principal men among us.”
- There never was a “tribe of Christians.”
- Copies of Josephus' works existed, that lacked either reference to Jesus. [8]
- The style of the text is radically different from the rest of his writings.
- The text is completely out of context with the paragraphs around it, and interrupts their story line. The next paragraph begins, "About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder..." This refers to the previous paragraph, where Pilate had his soldiers massacre a large crowd of Jews in Jerusalem.
- Josephus wrote extensively about many minor people of the time. A single paragraph and sentence for the Messiah is impossible.
With these two spurious references removed from Josephus' writings, he becomes strong negative evidence for Jesus. If Jesus had existed, Josephus would have written extensively about him.
There are some supposed second century references to Christians or Christ - by several men. In about 100 CE, Pliny the Younger referred to Christians in Asia Minor, but he didn't refer to Jesus. The most used Christian reference from that century is by Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 CE). He purportedly wrote around 117 CE about “Christos” being executed by Pontius Pilate. However, Tacitus would have used Jesus' name, not his religious title “Christos.” Notedly, Tacitus' reference was not mentioned by Origen, Eusebius, Tertullian (who quotes a great deal from Tacitus [8]) or Clement of Alexandria in the third century. It was likely added in 1468 by Johannes de Spire of Venice, because no mention is made of it in any known text prior to then, but there are many later references. [8], [19] Another writer, Suetonius, in about 120 CE referred to a man named Chrestus and his Jewish followers. However, “Chrestus” is the correct Latin form of an actual Greek name, and is not a misspelling of “Christos.”
Even if the references by Josephus, Tacitus, and others in the second century are original, they only amount to second-hand testimony or hearsay written 60 or more years after the purported events, or simply refer to Christian beliefs of the time. The fact that modern Christians have to rely on these supposed references exemplifies the weakness of their claims for an historical Jesus Christ.
Some people think that the Shroud of Turin is physical evidence for the existence of Jesus. However, scientific analysis shows that the Shroud is a forgery. It depicts a man two inches taller in front than he is in back, its “blood” is actually the pigment red ocher (real blood would be black), and it's been carbon-dated to 1260-1390 CE (consistent with when it was first “discovered” in 1357). It's also ludicrous to think that the Shroud was kept hidden for over 1300 years until the crusaders came to the Middle East, looking for souvenirs to take home (like most tourists). Some enterprising forger likely made a bundle.
Could it be that “The Greatest Story Ever Told” is just a story? Is one of the most influential characters in history just a myth? Have billions of people believed in a fictional messiah? Did people die for their Christian faith in vain? This isn't so far-fetched; people believe lies all the time, and even kill or die for them or for their religion. Look at Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, the Solar Temple, 9/11, suicide bombers, and the almost countless wars and slaughters based completely on religion.
Because many people's minds are infected with religion, they don't like to question the existence of their savior or prophet. Religion causes people to accept irrational ideas with little or no evidence. If I were to say that banana Popsicles can make people invisible, most people would likely ask for a little proof. But, a very old book emulates other myths of the time and says that 2000 years ago some guy was born with a ghost as his father and a virgin as his mother; this guy did miracles, was killed, came back to life, and rose bodily up to heaven — and billions of people accept the story seemingly without question.
So, let's look at the evidence we have. From the earliest Christian epistle authors such as Paul, we have little to indicate that Jesus was a real person. And, we have strong evidence that to them he was just a spiritual sky god, constructed from earlier myths. From the later (and unknown) writers of the gospels, we have a story that grew over time, with more fantastical events added as the story was told and re-told — just like a myth. None of the gospel authors even claimed to have met Jesus. From the historians of the first century we have nothing. Nothing.
For more on Christian historicity and atheism, seewww.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Debate.html#hist andwww.godlessgeeks.com/WhyAtheism.htm
Copyright © 2009, 2010, 2011. Mark W. Thomas. All rights reserved.
Observer
It
> works -- try it -- it works, because if it works for little ole ladies like
> me - it will work for you!! IF YOU GIVE THE SACRIFICE OF PRAISE (Hebrews
> and Psalms) - the answers come quickly.
> thea
You are so immersed in ignorance and superstition that there is little
hope for your recovery. Sorry about that.
I wish you well
Psychonomist
>
>What I am talking about is USING THE BIBLE -- not just reading it for fun!, but putting it into practice the way it says to do. Then, THE BIBLE becomes something more than. And to be ignorant is to not "study to show thyself approved unto GOD". You study the Bible, and JESUS will see to it that you know you are LOVED IN HEAVEN!!thea
John Stockwell
<john.19071969@gmail.com>There was a problem regarding the presence of certain plants and animals on widely separated geographic locations
which led to the suggest that "land bridges" existed connecting these locations. Now, there are some bonafide land bridges,
such as the Bearing Strait land bridge which existed during the last ice age. With the development of precise bathymetric
mapping and plate tectonics theory, there really is no place for Mu, Lemuria, or Atlantis. Many archaeologists view
the Atlantis story, which is really just one paragraph in Plato's dialog, Timaeus.
Today we know the continents move and have maps of the ocean subsurface, so there is no place for these.
-John
thea
<thea.nob4@gmail.com>Are you a *pig*?
Observer
<mayorskid@gmail.com>On Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:31:41 AM UTC-7, Keith MacNevins wrote:
Imagine the psychotic-observer in a discussion with Socrates, or Einstein (before he published his theories) or the current Dalai Lama. Nothing much in the way of scientific proofs to offer, so the psychotic-observer would call them all stupid fools and idiots for superstitious filth. Says a lot more about the psychotic-observer in my view.
John Stockwell
<john.19071969@gmail.com>thea
<thea.nob4@gmail.com>who doesn't realize that gmail accounts are separate accounts??
it's you who did something you shouldn't have done --
thea
>> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
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Ian Betts
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