peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
reason you're an atheist.
On Nov 18, 5:04 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ.
Proof of Christ existing like proof of New York existing or proof of
Palin existing. Christian Chris must give proof for belief
Palin can give election speech on FOX News If Christ exists then you
must give proof that he can make leg grow on amputee in one second on
FOX News
Just as example only
What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
Because Christian do not give any proof
Same reason person not believe in existence of SpiderMan
> On Nov 18, 5:04 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> > would it take for you to believe in Christ.
> Proof of Christ existing like proof of New York existing or proof of
> Palin existing. Christian Chris must give proof for belief
> Palin can give election speech on FOX News If Christ exists then you
> must give proof that he can make leg grow on amputee in one second on
> FOX News
> Just as example only
> What would it take for you> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> > banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> > reason you're an atheist.
> Because Christian do not give any proof
> Same reason person not believe in existence of SpiderMan
On Nov 19, 12:04 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
Before I could become a professing Christian, the existence of the God
of Christianity would have to be demonstrated to me. Evidence for the
existence of a Supreme God, not subject to the laws of physics, would
probably require some demonstrated violation of those physical laws. I
would therefore accept any of the following as proof of God's
existence.
1) A demonstrated miracle, properly performed before accredited
observers under double-blind experimental controls, of a violation of
either the conservation of energy law, or the second law of
thermodynamics, or resolution of a quantum event below the Planck
scale, or faster than light communication. Other miracles may qualify;
consideration will be given when your application is lodged.
2) Fulfilment of a precisely specified prophecy, accurate in every
detail, of an event that could not have been known beforehand. For
example, correctly specifying the time of visibility of the next
supernova to the microsecond.
3) Solving a problem in pure mathematics on demand within an hour,
when that problem has been known to resist the best efforts of the
world's expert mathematicians for more than a year. Or resolving a
problem that is known to be computationally impossible even with the
total computing power of the universe, such as decrypting a message
encoded with a 2 billion bit key.
Of course, even if you managed to prove God's existence, I wouldn't
become a professing believer in Christianity; I would still reject it
on the grounds that it's ethically repugnant. But I would accept it as
true.
On Nov 18, 5:23 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> if you're going to ask for ironclad proof of God, then you'd have to
> be able to suggest what type of proof would qualify.
Christian Chris cannot read?I already asked very clearly what will be
proof
> Would God have to stand on the moon and wave?
Okay if he can be seen without oxygen tank and mask and video taken by
FOX News also just like FOX News take video of Christian Palin waving
in election speech
> On Nov 18, 5:10 pm, Woodbridge <Woodbri...@archaeologist.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 5:04 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> > > would it take for you to believe in Christ.
> > Proof of Christ existing like proof of New York existing or proof of
> > Palin existing. Christian Chris must give proof for belief
> > Palin can give election speech on FOX News If Christ exists then you
> > must give proof that he can make leg grow on amputee in one second on
> > FOX News
> > Just as example only
> > What would it take for you> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> > > banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> > > reason you're an atheist.
> > Because Christian do not give any proof
> > Same reason person not believe in existence of SpiderMan
On Nov 19, 12:30 pm, Woodbridge <Woodbri...@archaeologist.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 5:23 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > if you're going to ask for ironclad proof of God, then you'd have to
> > be able to suggest what type of proof would qualify.
> Christian Chris cannot read?I already asked very clearly what will be
> proof
> > Would God have to stand on the moon and wave?
> Okay if he can be seen without oxygen tank and mask and video taken by
> FOX News also just like FOX News take video of Christian Palin waving
> in election speech
Actually if I saw God on FOX, I'd be even more inclined to disbelieve
in him.
On Nov 18, 8:04 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ.
Many things. Brain damage would be one, I'm sure. Nothing serious,
just enough amnesia for me to forget all of the evidence that
disproves the divinity of Christ. Of course then you'd have to spend
the rest of my life preventing me from being exposed to it again.
> What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
On Nov 18, 5:04 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ.
Observer
First provide verifiable substantiating data for the existence of or
any act of any god ever.
Second provide scientifically verifiable substantiating data that the
god for which you supply the above substantiation is accurately
depicted by the buy bull.
Third provide scientifically verifiable substantiating data
establishing that this god depicted in the buy bull actually directly
had a causal/inspirational relationship to the production of the buy
bull.
NOTE : Chris scientifically verifiable data is that which will stand
up under the scrutiny of applied scientific method. You do know what
scientific method is , don't you Chris?
Then a rational explanation of why the buy bull is so full of
absurdities , contradictions, and errors which have been
scientifically substantiated as such. How would one explain a god that
had no knowledge of the universal laws by which his world functions.
(read Genesis what a fucking worthless piece of shit that is to say
nothing of the complete stupidity of the new testament and the
promulgation of the hideously stupid ideas relating to metaphysics or
the existence of any thing , place, creature, or condition relating
there to.
No problem Chris, if you believe in all this nonsense you surely have
the scientifically verifiable substantiating data at you finger tips.
No ? Well then it appears that you know not where of you speak and
that the objects of your belief are purely imaginary.
We await your proofs with great anticipation.
What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
Observer
Chris I am an apatheist/atheist I care not in the slightest whether of
not there exists a god for it has left no footprint , has never
interacted with humanity. All delusional misinterpretations of the
production of endogenous opiates , hallucinations, and just plain
fucking lies not withstanding.
No. I have no more choice in the matter than others do in their
belief of a god, they are simply convinced that their is one and are
unable to change their beliefs if they wished.
> Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ.
Evidence.
> What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus.
Evidence.
> There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
I haven't any evidence to the contrary, and since it accepting
unreasonable claims without evidence would be stupid, I am an atheist.
On Nov 18, 5:04 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
It's the default position. Why should I believe in any god never mind your
god?
I don't need a reason not to believe but I would need a compelling reason to
believe.
So far I haven't found one.
Why don't you tell me?
Why should I believe in any god?
Why should I believe in your particular god, jesus, and doctrine?
-- Witchy Woman, AvC Anti-Spam Brigade.
"Fear of serious injury cannot alone justify suppression of free speech and
assembly. Men feared witches and burned women. It is the function of speech
to free men from the bondage of irrational fears." --Louis D. Brandeis, US
Supreme Court Justice
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
On Nov 18, 8:04 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus.
Nothing could make me go back to "believing in Jesus." The belief in
Jesus brought me to the verge of destruction b/c of the internal
contradictions in doing so.
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
On Nov 18, 5:04 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus.
What do you think it would take for someone who was in the audience at
the Sermon on the Mount to become a professing believer in Jesus?
1. Physical evidence
2. Post death, I appear in hell or heaven
3. I'm a ghost (& I know it)
4. I come back as something or someone else & I have the power to know
it
But not much else
Max
On Nov 19, 10:04 am, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
I'm a Christian, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that God
will not tell us the exact time of the next supernova and will leave
it to us to use the brains He's given us to do our own observations.
He will leave it to us to muddle our way through a profound
mathematical paradox for the same reason, and will not perform
miracles on demand, having produced the grand miracle of the universe
in which we live. Although from time to time He might give miracles
to edify His own people.
On the other hand I think it is extremely unlikely any atheist is
going to become a Christian due to debating on the web, or that any
Christian will become an atheist for the same reason. The reason is
that the process of conversion is spiritual, and it is a two way
street. In some way God also seems to pick and choose.
John 15:16 "You did not choose me. I chose you. And I appointed you
to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last..."
Matthew 11:27 "All things have been handed over to me by my Father,
and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son
chooses to reveal him."
Revelation 3:20 "Listen! I am standing at the door knocking; if you
hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with
you, and you with me."
There seems to be some sort of control by God over who turns to Him,
yet at the same time He bids people come. We can argue all we like on
the web, but all we'll probably do is set our pre-existing positions
in concrete, on both sides. Nothing will change unless in the case of
atheists, they are even prepared to open the door. For Christians to
become atheists would mean slamming the door shut in Christ's face.
On Nov 19, 8:26 pm, etienne <etienne...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 19, 9:48 pm, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au> wrote:
> On the other hand I think it is extremely unlikely any atheist is
> going to become a Christian due to debating on the web, or that any
> Christian will become an atheist for the same reason. The reason is
> that the process of conversion is spiritual, and it is a two way
> street. In some way God also seems to pick and choose.
So, no way for a reasonable person to find God, then?
> On Nov 19, 9:48 pm, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au> wrote:
> > On the other hand I think it is extremely unlikely any atheist is
> > going to become a Christian due to debating on the web, or that any
> > Christian will become an atheist for the same reason. The reason is
> > that the process of conversion is spiritual, and it is a two way
> > street. In some way God also seems to pick and choose.
> So, no way for a reasonable person to find God, then?
On Nov 19, 5:48 am, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au> wrote:
> I'm a Christian, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that God
> will not tell us the exact time of the next supernova and will leave
> it to us to use the brains He's given us to do our own observations.
So what you're saying is God doesn't want us to believe in him?
Because my brain and the observations of the universe point away from
God, not toward him.
> He will leave it to us to muddle our way through a profound
> mathematical paradox for the same reason, and will not perform
> miracles on demand, having produced the grand miracle of the universe
> in which we live. Although from time to time He might give miracles
> to edify His own people.
Which is stupid.
> On the other hand I think it is extremely unlikely any atheist is
> going to become a Christian due to debating on the web, or that any
> Christian will become an atheist for the same reason.
It's one thing to think that atheists will not be convinced by debate.
It's another thing to have absolutely nothing with which to even
conduct a debate.
> The reason is
> that the process of conversion is spiritual, and it is a two way
> street. In some way God also seems to pick and choose.
Which is not compatible with "all loving".
> John 15:16 "You did not choose me. I chose you. And I appointed you
> to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last..."
> Matthew 11:27 "All things have been handed over to me by my Father,
> and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son
> chooses to reveal him."
> Revelation 3:20 "Listen! I am standing at the door knocking; if you
> hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with
> you, and you with me."
Interesting, that last one. It's a metaphor, obviously, but what is
the "real world" equivilent of "God knocking"?
> There seems to be some sort of control by God over who turns to Him,
> yet at the same time He bids people come.
Really? How does he bid us?
> We can argue all we like on
> the web, but all we'll probably do is set our pre-existing positions
> in concrete, on both sides. Nothing will change unless in the case of
> atheists, they are even prepared to open the door.
Except Christians assume that we aren't prepared based solely on the
fact that we're atheists and not convinced by Christian non-arguments.
While it is certainly consistent to the theme of Christian logical
fallacies you've basically set it up to prevent any sort of reasonable
debate on the subject. The height of this unproductive stance is the
whole recitation of "pearls before swine" whenever an atheist asks
support for Christianity.
> For Christians to
> become atheists would mean slamming the door shut in Christ's face.
Except as an atheist they wouldn't believe in Christ so they wouldn't
be slamming the door in anyone's face.
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 5:04 pm, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> > would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
> > to become a professing believer in Jesus.
> What do you think it would take for someone who was in the audience at
> the Sermon on the Mount to become a professing believer in Jesus?
Which one specifically? Is it the hyperbole on "the other cheek", the
discourse on ostentation, the parable of the kingdom, or the
expounding of the moral laws?
On Nov 19, 5:07 am, Saint Onan <gigacy...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> On Nov 19, 9:48 pm, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au> wrote:
> > On the other hand I think it is extremely unlikely any atheist is
> > going to become a Christian due to debating on the web, or that any
> > Christian will become an atheist for the same reason. The reason is
> > that the process of conversion is spiritual, and it is a two way
> > street. In some way God also seems to pick and choose.
> So, no way for a reasonable person to find God, then?
Any person with or without rational thinking will find God if he wants
to.
On Nov 19, 4:48 am, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au> wrote:
> I'm a Christian, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that God
> will not tell us the exact time of the next supernova and will leave
> it to us to use the brains He's given us to do our own observations.
> He will leave it to us to muddle our way through a profound
> mathematical paradox for the same reason, and will not perform
> miracles on demand, having produced the grand miracle of the universe
> in which we live. Although from time to time He might give miracles
> to edify His own people.
So in other words, the same results that we would expect if there were
no god.
A bloke calling himself Jesus would have to come down from heaven a
sort out the mess that is the bible. He would have to rip out all the
lies and the mistakes and produce a coherent and non contradictory
text.
He would then have to prove himself by a miracle of some sort - if it
is good enough for the disciples then it is good enough for me.
He would then have to account for why god was such a bastard in the
Old Testament.
He would then have to reconcile omnipotence with the existence of
suffering in the world.
He would then have to reconcile omniscience with free-will.
Once all this was done, I would have to examine my conscience to
decide whether or not he was worthy to follow, even though I might
"believe" his existence might not be enough to actually be a
Christian.
On Nov 19, 1:04 am, Chris <chrism3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> peculiar question some might say. Let's phrase it differently - what
> would it take for you to believe in Christ. What would it take for you
> to become a professing believer in Jesus. There's a great deal of
> banter on this list. Some reasonable objections. But what is the real
> reason you're an atheist.
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