Something Changed about 35 or 40 years ago
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Tom
Jan 25, 2008, 11:57:59 PM1/25/08
to Adventist Education Forum
Every societal group (whether it is a country or simply a company) has
a culture that leaves its mark on the landscape. For countries it is
often their distinctive architecture and for smaller groups like an
office of workers, it may be the neatness of the employee lounge.
Changes in architecture or neatness of the lounge may signify a change
in the philosophy, core value or morale of the group. To a new people
coming into that office lounge, they may not have known that at one
time the lounge was very clean. The only thing they know is the
current condition of that somewhat dirty lounge and soon the new
employee is absorbed into the current culture and just accepts the
culture the way it is.
It appears to me that there was a change in our Adventist society on a
significant scale about 35 or 40 years ago by the relics left behind
in North America. I am of the impression the Adventist society within
the States was in an expansion mode up until that time. I say that
based on very limited data of my personal observations that most of
the schools and churches I have seen are of a 35 to 40 year vintage.
Then something changed in our Adventist culture. Something changed at
our core (at least that is what it looks like to me).
I do not believe it is as obvious as WWII or Rock n Roll or other
national event because I do not notice the same architectural evidence
for other faiths. It appears to be something very specific to
Adventists.
Does anyone have some perspective on this observation?
Tom Krazan
Central California
tomk...@gmail.com
a culture that leaves its mark on the landscape. For countries it is
often their distinctive architecture and for smaller groups like an
office of workers, it may be the neatness of the employee lounge.
Changes in architecture or neatness of the lounge may signify a change
in the philosophy, core value or morale of the group. To a new people
coming into that office lounge, they may not have known that at one
time the lounge was very clean. The only thing they know is the
current condition of that somewhat dirty lounge and soon the new
employee is absorbed into the current culture and just accepts the
culture the way it is.
It appears to me that there was a change in our Adventist society on a
significant scale about 35 or 40 years ago by the relics left behind
in North America. I am of the impression the Adventist society within
the States was in an expansion mode up until that time. I say that
based on very limited data of my personal observations that most of
the schools and churches I have seen are of a 35 to 40 year vintage.
Then something changed in our Adventist culture. Something changed at
our core (at least that is what it looks like to me).
I do not believe it is as obvious as WWII or Rock n Roll or other
national event because I do not notice the same architectural evidence
for other faiths. It appears to be something very specific to
Adventists.
Does anyone have some perspective on this observation?
Tom Krazan
Central California
tomk...@gmail.com
kurtk...@yahoo.com
Jan 26, 2008, 8:02:38 AM1/26/08
to Adventist Education Forum
There was a major revolution in the youth of the church at that time
and called bible study groups. Kids were getting together to read the
Bible and came to some conclusions that the interpetations may not
have been the same as their parents had. Many of the youth were not
willing to accept church as it was. They wanted something different
only problem was they didn't control the purse strings and the older
generation wasn't going to support the youth so the youth walked.
Thus growth slowed.
The next major change came about with a new breed of ministers to the
pulpit in that about this time we had an influx of ministers who had
been converted at a later age and had not been raised in SDA
educational systems and did not have the loyalty to those
institutions. When all they heard at "Workers meetings" was evangelism
and numbers they were able to refocus church resources away from
education and into evangelism. Nobody wanted to face the music that
the youth were walking out the backdoors faster than the converts were
coming in the front.
Along those same lines is the fact that many churches went away from
the temple plan of support for schools and many young parents who had
benefitted from it felt a slap in the face that funds were being
deverted to bring new people in instead of helping them educated their
childern. Those of us who have been around know that when a church
school dies it isn't too much longer than the church dies (we havent'
been able to figure out how to keep people living forever).
> tomkra...@gmail.com
and called bible study groups. Kids were getting together to read the
Bible and came to some conclusions that the interpetations may not
have been the same as their parents had. Many of the youth were not
willing to accept church as it was. They wanted something different
only problem was they didn't control the purse strings and the older
generation wasn't going to support the youth so the youth walked.
Thus growth slowed.
The next major change came about with a new breed of ministers to the
pulpit in that about this time we had an influx of ministers who had
been converted at a later age and had not been raised in SDA
educational systems and did not have the loyalty to those
institutions. When all they heard at "Workers meetings" was evangelism
and numbers they were able to refocus church resources away from
education and into evangelism. Nobody wanted to face the music that
the youth were walking out the backdoors faster than the converts were
coming in the front.
Along those same lines is the fact that many churches went away from
the temple plan of support for schools and many young parents who had
benefitted from it felt a slap in the face that funds were being
deverted to bring new people in instead of helping them educated their
childern. Those of us who have been around know that when a church
school dies it isn't too much longer than the church dies (we havent'
been able to figure out how to keep people living forever).
Garland Cross
Jan 26, 2008, 8:47:52 AM1/26/08
to Adventis...@googlegroups.com
Tom,
My husband and I started teaching in our schools in the middle 60's and have always thought our kids have changed just as much as TV has changed in the years since!
Our church if subject to change if we "eat" the same "bread" the world is - that which is passed out from Hollywood!
Pam & Garland
Tom <tomk...@gmail.com> wrote:
My husband and I started teaching in our schools in the middle 60's and have always thought our kids have changed just as much as TV has changed in the years since!
Our church if subject to change if we "eat" the same "bread" the world is - that which is passed out from Hollywood!Pam & Garland
Tom <tomk...@gmail.com> wrote:
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
John Vixie
Jan 26, 2008, 10:53:51 AM1/26/08
to Adventis...@googlegroups.com
Pam,
I agree that TV has changed over the last five
decades. But for me, to put Hollywood and TV as the reason our
church has changed doesn't really explain what happened.
Read what kurtk...@yahoo.com said in his post
this morning. That's more what I saw happening during the past forty
years.
For some of my academy classmates in the middle 60's,
a reason they left the church was because of how they were treated in church
school.
For others, as Kurt said, people wanted
change.
I had classmates that wanted to make the church
better. They had what they thought were good ideas for doing just that,
but the people at the top (academy faculty, administration, and
conference administrators) didn't want to make any changes. And again
as Kurt pointed out some people with the money wouldn't help, so
a few of my friends left, not right away of course, but over the
years.
I know several classmates who wanted reasons for what they
were being told they "had to do", and a common answer was "because I said so and
I know what's best for you", or "that's just the way we do things here,
like it or leave."
Once, sitting in the principal's office at Upper Columbia
Academy in front of the administrative committee, the academy
pastor said to my friend, "And if you leave this church, you won't make it
to heaven, so straighten up." (He left the church
anyway.)
I started teaching in church school in the early 70's so
I've been around a few less years than you. But from what I've seen over
the years, and with most of the people I know that have left the
church, they left because of how they felt they were treated.
These are just three reasons plus all the
reasons that Kurt wrote, and the way I see it, there are as many
reasons as there are people who have left.
Our academy class has its 40th reunion this
spring. It will be interesting to hear other reasons.
John
Elaine Pugh
Jan 27, 2008, 1:54:51 AM1/27/08
to adventis...@googlegroups.com
It is so easy for subtle shifts to occur in a system, any system, and our system is no exception. Hence the words of inspiration to 'watch and pray'. Shifts can occur on the peripherals of a system without devastating the whole, but when a shift occurs at the center, macro change is inevitable. In a system of belief, the center of belief must needs be revisited on a steady, and continual basis to maintain it's integrity.
Perhaps it is time to take inventory of what the center of our belief is, as individuals, and collectively as churches, conferences, unions, divisions. Does the pre-eminence of Jesus Christ sit squarely in the middle of our beliefs? Do we teach Him in the light of His pre-eminence? As opposed to just stories of His birth, works on earth, death on the cross, and that we serve a risen Savior. Our Savior is all of these things, but so very much more. There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. Does it enter every lesson we teach? Does grace issue without measure to every student we teach? Does our belief generate a passion, a zeal, an urgency in every relationship we enter into? Are our stated beliefs manifested in our day to day lives? Do the children perceive double standards, or a single standard? More importantly, is our belief simply in Jesus Christ? It is then that 'all these things will be added unto us', and we will know what order to file 'all things' in. Such things as eternity, the second coming, the twenty two tenets of our faith, etc, and etc., will all fall into place, behind the awesome and wonderful, most incredible knowledge of Jesus Christ, Him crucified and risen, and now seated on the right hand of God, all for you and me.
The acknowledgement of this Source of all grace is what brings us all to our knees, and from where gratitude springs eternal, and our belief generates life through our faith in Jesus. Where His Spirit abides, there is heaven on earth. We are told the outcome, - 'by this shall all men know you are my people, that you love one another as I have loved you'. We have to become a loving and forgiving people. A Jesus people. Forgiving, because we are none perfect, and since none of us are perfect, neither is the church/conference/union/division. All have made mistakes and come up short. Rather than dwell on what should/could/would have been IF, let's all be willing to examine our own hearts, or better still, ask Him to search our hearts and know us. It is how we relate to these mistakes that grows our characters. We're not victims, or rather, we don't have to be. We believe in a God who can take what is wrong and make it right! How great is that? He can create out of nothing! If we see that a problem exists, it is up to us to do all we can to fix it, allowing the Holy Spirit to simply work through us, in love. The Lord our God is able to replace hurts with faith, hope and love, and love keeps no record of wrongs.
Has anybody checked out the educational model Tiger Woods is building? Why don't we put our heads together and come up with some creative models that will showcase Christian development in our world today?
Perhaps it is time to take inventory of what the center of our belief is, as individuals, and collectively as churches, conferences, unions, divisions. Does the pre-eminence of Jesus Christ sit squarely in the middle of our beliefs? Do we teach Him in the light of His pre-eminence? As opposed to just stories of His birth, works on earth, death on the cross, and that we serve a risen Savior. Our Savior is all of these things, but so very much more. There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. Does it enter every lesson we teach? Does grace issue without measure to every student we teach? Does our belief generate a passion, a zeal, an urgency in every relationship we enter into? Are our stated beliefs manifested in our day to day lives? Do the children perceive double standards, or a single standard? More importantly, is our belief simply in Jesus Christ? It is then that 'all these things will be added unto us', and we will know what order to file 'all things' in. Such things as eternity, the second coming, the twenty two tenets of our faith, etc, and etc., will all fall into place, behind the awesome and wonderful, most incredible knowledge of Jesus Christ, Him crucified and risen, and now seated on the right hand of God, all for you and me.
The acknowledgement of this Source of all grace is what brings us all to our knees, and from where gratitude springs eternal, and our belief generates life through our faith in Jesus. Where His Spirit abides, there is heaven on earth. We are told the outcome, - 'by this shall all men know you are my people, that you love one another as I have loved you'. We have to become a loving and forgiving people. A Jesus people. Forgiving, because we are none perfect, and since none of us are perfect, neither is the church/conference/union/division. All have made mistakes and come up short. Rather than dwell on what should/could/would have been IF, let's all be willing to examine our own hearts, or better still, ask Him to search our hearts and know us. It is how we relate to these mistakes that grows our characters. We're not victims, or rather, we don't have to be. We believe in a God who can take what is wrong and make it right! How great is that? He can create out of nothing! If we see that a problem exists, it is up to us to do all we can to fix it, allowing the Holy Spirit to simply work through us, in love. The Lord our God is able to replace hurts with faith, hope and love, and love keeps no record of wrongs.
Has anybody checked out the educational model Tiger Woods is building? Why don't we put our heads together and come up with some creative models that will showcase Christian development in our world today?
Elaine Pugh
Tom
Jan 27, 2008, 1:27:32 PM1/27/08
to Adventist Education Forum
Although there are not a lot that participate on this forum, there is
some remarkable knowledge, history, and creativity, and I have made
some good friends. Plus I think this collective knowledge can make a
difference in Adventist education, now and in the future. For
example, all of this blogging is helping me improve my spelling and
grammar. Just too bad I waited so long, I could have at least gotten
a grade out of deal.
The Tiger Woods educational model is very interesting. Thanks for the
tip, Elaine, you are the best. http://www.tigerwoodsfoundation.org/
You need flash to view this site properly. Flash is free.
I think that Kurt's response and the following ones specific to the
Adventists sounds more logical to me but that is just a personal
bias. I came into the faith by simply attending an Adventist church.
A couple years later I was then exposed to a Daniel/Revelation
seminar. I found it very interesting and I listened with great
intent. But now that I have heard several of these "canned
presentations" I find myself thinking about the style of presentation
and the delivery method. I now come away with two very distinct
underlying messages, first, the world today is terrible (and will get
worse soon) and second, you can not trust anyone in the world. Both
are somewhat fatalistic but are necessary for the urgency our doctrine
to be correct.
During the time of the Millerites, the believers sold everything and
just waited for the end, lethargic. Also James White (prior to
marrying Ellen Harmon) had once refused to marry a young couple
because it would be the opposite of a profession of faith of the
immediate coming of Christ.
Today, I walk away from these Daniel/Revelation seminars sometimes
with a depressed fatalistic feeling. So because of that, I have begun
to wonder, has our own efforts with scary posters and high impact
evangelism using powerful colorful ugly images on very large screens
had a secondary effect on our congregation? Most people attending
these seminars are existing older church members (many of long
standing). Has our evangelistic techniques shut down our enthusiasm
to celebrate our relationship with God here on earth? The message
also seems to repeatedly say, there is no hope (at least not here on
earth) and there is no time to make a difference except to save
yourself.
So as crazy as this may sound, I almost get the mental picture that
the high impact Daniel/Revelation seminars using the color projector
have had a significant negative impact on our enthusiasm and hope for
our ability to spread the word within our own local communities and
within our life time. That would have begun to happen about 35 years
ago with the introduction of the slide projector. And I think it has
affected not only our school growth but the new construction of
churches and other community institutions like rest-homes. Both
churches and schools are constituent controlled. The Adventist
hospitals are on their own track.
It is an interesting fact that in South American the "Adventist
Organization" is growing and owns many types other facilities and
institutions (beyond churches and schools) that service their
communities. Within the entire multi-state Pacific Union Conference
there is only one rest-home and that is in Northern California (of
course, former Ellen White country). Ellen White told us to go out
and build great institutions.
I till think she was right. You can not except a community to know
you if you are not known to the community. That is simply Marketing
101, oops evangelism. I used the wrong word.
Well for me, if there are still some sheep out there, I want to be a
sheep herder! But I am new to the block so, I think I will look over
the fence and see what the other non-Adventist sheep herders are
doing. Plus someone said the cattle rustlers even had some better
techniques, so I would like to check them out to before my pastor
finds out what I am doing. So good luck to those other rustlers (oops
wrong word, sheep herders) out there in Adventist country. Lets round
them up for the Lord!!!!!!
your brother in Christ,
Tom Krazan
Central California
Having a Kick being an Adventist
ps. I knew when I joined this group, I was in good company. Any
group that is lead by a fragile little old pacifistic lady interested
in picking a fight with the Irish Catholics has to be my kind of
people. Short on brains but long on faith.
.
some remarkable knowledge, history, and creativity, and I have made
some good friends. Plus I think this collective knowledge can make a
difference in Adventist education, now and in the future. For
example, all of this blogging is helping me improve my spelling and
grammar. Just too bad I waited so long, I could have at least gotten
a grade out of deal.
The Tiger Woods educational model is very interesting. Thanks for the
tip, Elaine, you are the best. http://www.tigerwoodsfoundation.org/
You need flash to view this site properly. Flash is free.
I think that Kurt's response and the following ones specific to the
Adventists sounds more logical to me but that is just a personal
bias. I came into the faith by simply attending an Adventist church.
A couple years later I was then exposed to a Daniel/Revelation
seminar. I found it very interesting and I listened with great
intent. But now that I have heard several of these "canned
presentations" I find myself thinking about the style of presentation
and the delivery method. I now come away with two very distinct
underlying messages, first, the world today is terrible (and will get
worse soon) and second, you can not trust anyone in the world. Both
are somewhat fatalistic but are necessary for the urgency our doctrine
to be correct.
During the time of the Millerites, the believers sold everything and
just waited for the end, lethargic. Also James White (prior to
marrying Ellen Harmon) had once refused to marry a young couple
because it would be the opposite of a profession of faith of the
immediate coming of Christ.
Today, I walk away from these Daniel/Revelation seminars sometimes
with a depressed fatalistic feeling. So because of that, I have begun
to wonder, has our own efforts with scary posters and high impact
evangelism using powerful colorful ugly images on very large screens
had a secondary effect on our congregation? Most people attending
these seminars are existing older church members (many of long
standing). Has our evangelistic techniques shut down our enthusiasm
to celebrate our relationship with God here on earth? The message
also seems to repeatedly say, there is no hope (at least not here on
earth) and there is no time to make a difference except to save
yourself.
So as crazy as this may sound, I almost get the mental picture that
the high impact Daniel/Revelation seminars using the color projector
have had a significant negative impact on our enthusiasm and hope for
our ability to spread the word within our own local communities and
within our life time. That would have begun to happen about 35 years
ago with the introduction of the slide projector. And I think it has
affected not only our school growth but the new construction of
churches and other community institutions like rest-homes. Both
churches and schools are constituent controlled. The Adventist
hospitals are on their own track.
It is an interesting fact that in South American the "Adventist
Organization" is growing and owns many types other facilities and
institutions (beyond churches and schools) that service their
communities. Within the entire multi-state Pacific Union Conference
there is only one rest-home and that is in Northern California (of
course, former Ellen White country). Ellen White told us to go out
and build great institutions.
I till think she was right. You can not except a community to know
you if you are not known to the community. That is simply Marketing
101, oops evangelism. I used the wrong word.
Well for me, if there are still some sheep out there, I want to be a
sheep herder! But I am new to the block so, I think I will look over
the fence and see what the other non-Adventist sheep herders are
doing. Plus someone said the cattle rustlers even had some better
techniques, so I would like to check them out to before my pastor
finds out what I am doing. So good luck to those other rustlers (oops
wrong word, sheep herders) out there in Adventist country. Lets round
them up for the Lord!!!!!!
your brother in Christ,
Tom Krazan
Central California
Having a Kick being an Adventist
ps. I knew when I joined this group, I was in good company. Any
group that is lead by a fragile little old pacifistic lady interested
in picking a fight with the Irish Catholics has to be my kind of
people. Short on brains but long on faith.
.
Mel Wade
Jan 27, 2008, 2:53:17 PM1/27/08
to Adventis...@googlegroups.com
Can we get so focused on reaping that we forget to sew?
--
Mel Wade
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
http://www.melwade.com
--
Mel Wade
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
http://www.melwade.com
annab...@aol.com
Jan 27, 2008, 2:47:47 PM1/27/08
to Adventis...@googlegroups.com
I read these recent posts with great interest. But I've not responded, probably for fear that my comments may not "measure up" to that elusive level of "holiness or godliness' that many long time Adventists expect. I have found Tom's comments to be provocative. In fact, I "googled" him to learn more about this man from Central California who dared to express his feelings and concerns regarding the 'dying' Adventist education system. As a lifelong Adventist, I attended both church and public schools, graduated from Adventist institutions and for a while, worked "in the system". Our local school, Golden Gate Academy finally closed its doors 2 years ago. There was both a lack of support within the constituent churches and from the local conference officials. But there was high interest from non Adventists who felt that the school provided a safe haven in the inner city. In fact, many of us wanted to have the school re-designated as a mission school, thereby able to serve a higher percentage of non-adventists. This would have been evangelism at its best! But we "didn't qualify." Now a non-adventist group is operating a charter school on the property, and other groups have expressed interest in the property. I am currently working with a group from another state that is planning to develop a state of the art Adventist church school that is not run by the church or denomination, but one that upholds the principles that we all believe in. Thank you for the link to the Tiger Woods school.
Comments like that last posting from Tom or lectures at campmeeting by Herb Larson give me hope. More concrete examples of success would be useful and much appreciated.
Anna Blackman
Comments like that last posting from Tom or lectures at campmeeting by Herb Larson give me hope. More concrete examples of success would be useful and much appreciated.
Anna Blackman
From: Tom <tomk...@gmail.com>
To: Adventist Education Forum <Adventis...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:27 am
Subject: [EdForum] Re: Something Changed about 35 or 40 years ago
Erik Borges
Jan 27, 2008, 4:55:04 PM1/27/08
to adventis...@googlegroups.com
Hi
I have always wanted to develop a school like the one you are working on. If you need any more teachers/administrators let me know.. Would love to be part of it..
God Bless,
Erik Borges
Central California
I have always wanted to develop a school like the one you are working on. If you need any more teachers/administrators let me know.. Would love to be part of it..
God Bless,
Erik Borges
Central California
To: Adventis...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [EdForum] Re: Something Changed about 35 or 40 years ago
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:47:47 -0500
From: annab...@aol.com
mom2twoboys
Jan 28, 2008, 8:36:57 AM1/28/08
to Adventist Education Forum
Tom--you have some good thoughts re: canned Daniel/Rev seminars. I
am not old enough to know anything before the 70s (was born at the
very end of the 60s).
Your comments about the fatalistic view of life on earth are spot on,
IMO. Now that's how I was raised, and I don't know how things were
"back in the day" (like when my parents were growing up in the 50s/
early 60s). I do know though that we have not stressed relationship
with God as much as we've stressed all the dos and don'ts of being an
SDA. One of my Christian (but non-SDA) students in HI pointed out
that "we Adventists" were so busy pointing to the end of time that we
did not teach how to live a Christian life in the here and now. I've
kept that in my mind ever since.
In various kinds of research, I've come across some Christian schools
that have been marvelous looking (there was one in Canada I saw
recently that looked so inviting I would have sent my kid to it had I
lived anywhere near it). Tom is absolutely right in telling us that
our websites must appeal to someone looking for the first time. we
may not know how to do it, but we should find someone who can help us
out and make it good. The website must reach out and grab a parent
and make them think, how could I send my child any other place?
Michelle
am not old enough to know anything before the 70s (was born at the
very end of the 60s).
Your comments about the fatalistic view of life on earth are spot on,
IMO. Now that's how I was raised, and I don't know how things were
"back in the day" (like when my parents were growing up in the 50s/
early 60s). I do know though that we have not stressed relationship
with God as much as we've stressed all the dos and don'ts of being an
SDA. One of my Christian (but non-SDA) students in HI pointed out
that "we Adventists" were so busy pointing to the end of time that we
did not teach how to live a Christian life in the here and now. I've
kept that in my mind ever since.
In various kinds of research, I've come across some Christian schools
that have been marvelous looking (there was one in Canada I saw
recently that looked so inviting I would have sent my kid to it had I
lived anywhere near it). Tom is absolutely right in telling us that
our websites must appeal to someone looking for the first time. we
may not know how to do it, but we should find someone who can help us
out and make it good. The website must reach out and grab a parent
and make them think, how could I send my child any other place?
Michelle
Tom
Jan 28, 2008, 11:26:48 AM1/28/08
to Adventist Education Forum
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Provocative? No, I am more provocative than an amateur photographer.
If one takes enough pictures at least one or two will look good. So
the more we talk, the more we share, the more we learn, the more we
make things better. That means that each one of us plays a very
important role in this very important problem solving process.
The way to improve the process is to get more photographers working
with us. I suggest we all invite some of our Adventist and non-
Adventist friends that are interested in education to come to this
blog. The blog address is:
http://groups.google.com/group/AdventistEdForum
Our blog has only 165 members. I just joined a Finnish blog with
twice the number of members (what a mistake). They are too active and
I can't understand a word. Oops! Some ideas seem good at the time
but????
The other thing we can all do is to let the general public know that
we are Adventists and that we are Christians! That is first! That we
are nice people, second. And then, we think it is a good idea to read
the Bible. Next, how about having Bible study with us. And lastly,
would you be interested in visiting our church on Sabbath?
This process really starts with us. And I do mean us and not our
pastors. We need to let people know that there are these really nice
people in town that are Adventists. One way to be real nice people is
to do something really nice, like volunteer at community events that
are non-Adventist. It is very easy to make new friends (non-
Adventists and mostly non-Christians, this is the target audience for
those that have forgotten) at these types of events, even if it is an
other Christian denomination event (but don't tell your pastor because
he will be afraid you will think about jumping ship but of course you
won't unless the food is better).
It is our turn to be real cool ACTIVE ADVENTISTS in your COMMUNITY.
We can come out of the closet if we choose to. Look, the gays did it
and now they are a powerful political group. Everyone loves a gay!
Too bad we did not start first, we could of been the ones already
featured on prime time TV!
Okay everyone, lets march out and impact the world by being nice
Adventists doing good works to win souls for Jesus. The major
networks will say: "THOUSANDS OF ADVENTISTS INVADE AMERICA, WHERE DID
THEY COME FROM?" The evening news would say, "The US government and
CIA knew nothing about these Adventist cells located all across
America while the general public says, 'Who are they?'. Top officials
report, 'We were totally caught off guard by this Christian
activity.'"
Mom2twoboys, will you handle the auditions, while Anna gets
sponsors?
blessings,
Tom Krazan
Central California
Provocative? No, I am more provocative than an amateur photographer.
If one takes enough pictures at least one or two will look good. So
the more we talk, the more we share, the more we learn, the more we
make things better. That means that each one of us plays a very
important role in this very important problem solving process.
The way to improve the process is to get more photographers working
with us. I suggest we all invite some of our Adventist and non-
Adventist friends that are interested in education to come to this
blog. The blog address is:
http://groups.google.com/group/AdventistEdForum
Our blog has only 165 members. I just joined a Finnish blog with
twice the number of members (what a mistake). They are too active and
I can't understand a word. Oops! Some ideas seem good at the time
but????
The other thing we can all do is to let the general public know that
we are Adventists and that we are Christians! That is first! That we
are nice people, second. And then, we think it is a good idea to read
the Bible. Next, how about having Bible study with us. And lastly,
would you be interested in visiting our church on Sabbath?
This process really starts with us. And I do mean us and not our
pastors. We need to let people know that there are these really nice
people in town that are Adventists. One way to be real nice people is
to do something really nice, like volunteer at community events that
are non-Adventist. It is very easy to make new friends (non-
Adventists and mostly non-Christians, this is the target audience for
those that have forgotten) at these types of events, even if it is an
other Christian denomination event (but don't tell your pastor because
he will be afraid you will think about jumping ship but of course you
won't unless the food is better).
It is our turn to be real cool ACTIVE ADVENTISTS in your COMMUNITY.
We can come out of the closet if we choose to. Look, the gays did it
and now they are a powerful political group. Everyone loves a gay!
Too bad we did not start first, we could of been the ones already
featured on prime time TV!
Okay everyone, lets march out and impact the world by being nice
Adventists doing good works to win souls for Jesus. The major
networks will say: "THOUSANDS OF ADVENTISTS INVADE AMERICA, WHERE DID
THEY COME FROM?" The evening news would say, "The US government and
CIA knew nothing about these Adventist cells located all across
America while the general public says, 'Who are they?'. Top officials
report, 'We were totally caught off guard by this Christian
activity.'"
Mom2twoboys, will you handle the auditions, while Anna gets
sponsors?
blessings,
Tom Krazan
Central California
Mel Wade
Jan 28, 2008, 12:18:03 PM1/28/08
to Adventis...@googlegroups.com
When these types of discussions come up, I am reminded of a vision of Ellen White. I believe her first vision is her while very profound is often forgotten. It establishes principle we should never forget. Take some time to read it your self.
Here's my summary: Everything is dark. She looks for the Advent people and is told to look higher. There they are on a narrow path that leads to the Holy City. There are two significant thing on the path (besides the people). Jesus is at the head, leading the group. There is a light at the back that lights the path so they can see where top put their feet. At times the group gets discouraged. When that happens, Jesus waves his hand and casts beams of light over the group and they are cheered. She is told the light at the back is the midnight cry (the "bridegroom" is coming!). Some deny that light and for them it goes out and they lose their footing, stumble, fall.
That is just the first part. There's more. You can read the full vision here: http://www.nisbett.com/reference/ew/ew1.htm
Some observations:
Here's my summary: Everything is dark. She looks for the Advent people and is told to look higher. There they are on a narrow path that leads to the Holy City. There are two significant thing on the path (besides the people). Jesus is at the head, leading the group. There is a light at the back that lights the path so they can see where top put their feet. At times the group gets discouraged. When that happens, Jesus waves his hand and casts beams of light over the group and they are cheered. She is told the light at the back is the midnight cry (the "bridegroom" is coming!). Some deny that light and for them it goes out and they lose their footing, stumble, fall.
That is just the first part. There's more. You can read the full vision here: http://www.nisbett.com/reference/ew/ew1.htm
Some observations:
- Two lights. One at front one at back.
- Both are very important.
- Don't try to switch their order - Don't forget that our focus must always be Jesus.
- A bridegroom is someone with which we have an very close relationship.
- Most importantly, don't forget about the back one - its a very important driving force, but not our focus.
- The people are much closer to heaven than she realized.
- Don't forget the destination.
- Keep reading, we can't get there on our own...
Elaine Pugh
Jan 29, 2008, 12:59:32 AM1/29/08
to adventis...@googlegroups.com
Thank you, Mel. That was, indeed, food for the soul renewing our hope.
Elaine Pugh
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:18:03 -0800
From: m...@melwade.com
To: Adventis...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [EdForum] Re: Something Changed about 35 or 40 years ago
mom2twoboys
Jan 29, 2008, 4:23:37 AM1/29/08
to Adventist Education Forum
I wonder what it does take to "qualify" as a mission school. We tried
that, too, and found that we didn't qualify either, with less than 35%
of our students SDA. What are the qualifications? Maybe we need a
new designation--an "outreach" school that really is reaching to
unchurched, non-SDA students but is run by SDA administrators and
teachers. (I guess I wouldn't necessarily call it that in the name--
that would scare people off.) I have found, though, that many
churches are afraid of an outreach school.
Anna--who will oversee the school you are involved with? I think of
all the nitty gritty stuff that conferences and unions do for
schools / teachers (like education upgrading, teacher certification,
curriculum, etc). How will you deal with that separate from a union
or conference?
Michelle
On Jan 28, 3:47 am, annab41...@aol.com wrote:
> I read these recent posts with great interest.? But I've not responded, probably for fear that my comments may not "measure up" to that elusive level of "holiness or godliness' that? many long time Adventists expect.? I have found Tom's comments to be provocative.? In fact, I "googled" him to learn more about this man from Central California who dared to express his feelings and concerns regarding the? 'dying' Adventist education system.? As a lifelong Adventist, I attended both church and public schools, graduated from Adventist institutions and for a while, worked "in the system".? Our local school, Golden Gate Academy finally closed its doors 2 years ago.? There was both a lack of support within the constituent churches and from the local conference officials.? But there was high interest from non Adventists who felt that the school provided a safe haven in the inner city.? In fact, many of us wanted to have the school re-designated as a mission school, thereby able to serve a higher percentage of non-adventists. This would have been evangelism at its best! ? But we "didn't qualify."? Now a non-adventist group is operating a charter school on the property, and other groups have expressed interest in the property.? I am currently working with a group from another state that is planning to develop a state of the art Adventist church school that is not run by the church or denomination, but one that upholds the principles that we all believe in.? Thank you for the link to the? Tiger Woods school.
>
> Comments like that last posting from Tom or lectures at campmeeting by Herb Larson give me hope.? More concrete examples of success? would be useful and much appreciated.
> ________________________________________________________________________
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -http://webmail.aol.com
that, too, and found that we didn't qualify either, with less than 35%
of our students SDA. What are the qualifications? Maybe we need a
new designation--an "outreach" school that really is reaching to
unchurched, non-SDA students but is run by SDA administrators and
teachers. (I guess I wouldn't necessarily call it that in the name--
that would scare people off.) I have found, though, that many
churches are afraid of an outreach school.
Anna--who will oversee the school you are involved with? I think of
all the nitty gritty stuff that conferences and unions do for
schools / teachers (like education upgrading, teacher certification,
curriculum, etc). How will you deal with that separate from a union
or conference?
Michelle
On Jan 28, 3:47 am, annab41...@aol.com wrote:
> I read these recent posts with great interest.? But I've not responded, probably for fear that my comments may not "measure up" to that elusive level of "holiness or godliness' that? many long time Adventists expect.? I have found Tom's comments to be provocative.? In fact, I "googled" him to learn more about this man from Central California who dared to express his feelings and concerns regarding the? 'dying' Adventist education system.? As a lifelong Adventist, I attended both church and public schools, graduated from Adventist institutions and for a while, worked "in the system".? Our local school, Golden Gate Academy finally closed its doors 2 years ago.? There was both a lack of support within the constituent churches and from the local conference officials.? But there was high interest from non Adventists who felt that the school provided a safe haven in the inner city.? In fact, many of us wanted to have the school re-designated as a mission school, thereby able to serve a higher percentage of non-adventists. This would have been evangelism at its best! ? But we "didn't qualify."? Now a non-adventist group is operating a charter school on the property, and other groups have expressed interest in the property.? I am currently working with a group from another state that is planning to develop a state of the art Adventist church school that is not run by the church or denomination, but one that upholds the principles that we all believe in.? Thank you for the link to the? Tiger Woods school.
>
> Comments like that last posting from Tom or lectures at campmeeting by Herb Larson give me hope.? More concrete examples of success? would be useful and much appreciated.
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -http://webmail.aol.com
Tom
Jan 29, 2008, 10:58:56 AM1/29/08
to Adventist Education Forum
Thank you Mel for that wonder link to Sister White's words. One of
her comments is, "The Lord has shown me repeatedly that it is contrary
to the Bible to make any provision for our temporal wants in the time
of trouble." That really makes perfect sense to me. And your
comments in this blog refocusing on Jesus is absolutely correct. And
may I add, the importance of our personal relationship with Christ and
the seriousness nature of salvation. But this is where the big
picture gets a little cloudy for me.
It seems like too many deeply religious senior Adventists say all
these scholarly things but at the same time they crawl up into a fetal
position of profound faith within a single person cocoon waiting
lethargically to be jettison into the End Times as we collectively
yell "Wo to the Catholics." I also notice that if a new member brings
up a different idea that someone finds an "Ellen White ball and chain"
to shackle to their neck and there appears to be little or no
improvement to our numbers, facilities, or our evangelistic efforts.
As a side observation, Adventists only have communion (the word
sometimes confused with social "communication") a few times a year.
It is a beautiful event. However, Adventist seem to have this need to
yack constantly even when exiting to the foot washing area. Our
Catholic counterparts do not yack in church or act like Grand Central
Station with multiple trips to the bathroom during mass. What they
lack in biblical understanding, we seem to lack in reverence in the
sanctuary and the desire to meet the needs of others (like feeding the
local poor), as Christ did. Therefore I ask, who is more holy in
God's eyes? Who is closer to Christ? Who is more Christ like?
Dear Brother Mel, this is not directed at you or anyone else on this
blog. Please do not misunderstand. I am so glad to have met all of
you through this wonderful tool of communication. You collectively
have personally touched my life and helped me understand the love of
Jesus. Thank you so much.
At the same time I know there are so many good Adventists doing so
many good things in the world for Christ. With God's help and his
guidance maybe more can pull on the tug rope of faith for our
fellowman through this wonderful organization known as the Adventist
Church. There is just so much opportunity for us Adventists to do
something good for God's children before the End Times. I just some
how think Jesus would want us to do that.
Tom Krazan
Central California
her comments is, "The Lord has shown me repeatedly that it is contrary
to the Bible to make any provision for our temporal wants in the time
of trouble." That really makes perfect sense to me. And your
comments in this blog refocusing on Jesus is absolutely correct. And
may I add, the importance of our personal relationship with Christ and
the seriousness nature of salvation. But this is where the big
picture gets a little cloudy for me.
It seems like too many deeply religious senior Adventists say all
these scholarly things but at the same time they crawl up into a fetal
position of profound faith within a single person cocoon waiting
lethargically to be jettison into the End Times as we collectively
yell "Wo to the Catholics." I also notice that if a new member brings
up a different idea that someone finds an "Ellen White ball and chain"
to shackle to their neck and there appears to be little or no
improvement to our numbers, facilities, or our evangelistic efforts.
As a side observation, Adventists only have communion (the word
sometimes confused with social "communication") a few times a year.
It is a beautiful event. However, Adventist seem to have this need to
yack constantly even when exiting to the foot washing area. Our
Catholic counterparts do not yack in church or act like Grand Central
Station with multiple trips to the bathroom during mass. What they
lack in biblical understanding, we seem to lack in reverence in the
sanctuary and the desire to meet the needs of others (like feeding the
local poor), as Christ did. Therefore I ask, who is more holy in
God's eyes? Who is closer to Christ? Who is more Christ like?
Dear Brother Mel, this is not directed at you or anyone else on this
blog. Please do not misunderstand. I am so glad to have met all of
you through this wonderful tool of communication. You collectively
have personally touched my life and helped me understand the love of
Jesus. Thank you so much.
At the same time I know there are so many good Adventists doing so
many good things in the world for Christ. With God's help and his
guidance maybe more can pull on the tug rope of faith for our
fellowman through this wonderful organization known as the Adventist
Church. There is just so much opportunity for us Adventists to do
something good for God's children before the End Times. I just some
how think Jesus would want us to do that.
Tom Krazan
Central California
Mel Wade
Jan 29, 2008, 11:03:25 AM1/29/08
to Adventis...@googlegroups.com
This all begs the question, "How does this affect what I do in the classroom?" Yes, our church has problems - always will because we are all human. But what do I do as a teacher? How does what I do in my little corner of the world affect the church as a whole?
Richard Thomason
Jan 30, 2008, 7:37:10 AM1/30/08
to Adventis...@googlegroups.com
I’ll bite and share my thoughts on these Q’s… (not directed at you personally however, but to each of us, myself included.)
"How does this affect what I do in the classroom?"
Model to your students. Talk to your students, don’t just teach. Dialog with your students, openly using a Web 2.0 tool like a Blog, Chat tool, or Wiki tool. (Actually, I’m pretty convinced www.Ning.com is a solution for me since I can keep it private. I just have to research the legal aspects now. Let’s all check into it. We need Web 2.0 solutions we can host internally on private networks so we can more freely teach our young how to communicate well in a 21st Century world.)
This all begs the question, Yes, our church has problems - always will because we are all human. But what do I do as a teacher?
Model, communicate, dialog, share. Model, communicate, dialog, share. Model, communicate, dialog, share. Model, communicate, dialog, share. Don’t forget prayer. <smile>
How does what I do in my little corner of the world affect the church as a whole?
No offense meant, but it sounds like you, (or anyone who asks this question), is still thinking like an 18th Century teacher. You are no longer in a “little corner of the world”!!! God has given us a gift in technology, and we so often overlook the single greatest use of it – COMMUNICATION. Today’s Internet has greatly flattened our world. (If you’ve not read “The World Is Flat” by Thomas L. Friedman, I highly suggest it.) This flattening is clearly for the purpose of spreading the gospel, IMHO, because I take the approach that technology is not here because of a few smart men (only), but through God’s grace that we (faithful Christians), can more effectively reach “all the world” and fulfill our commission. Just look at what a few grade school students have done to relieve suffering in Africa for example. (I’m trusting you’ve heard the stories.)
Thanks for the stimulating dialog. J
Richard Thomason
MCE
Tom
Jan 31, 2008, 10:57:35 AM1/31/08
to Adventist Education Forum
Hi Richard, I am in very much agreement with you about the use of WEB
2.0 technology. There are a lot of really cool free services out
there. Just a general question, what is the preference with Ning
(which I noticed had some Adventist socially unacceptable groups) as
compared to something more like Blogger where I know I can control the
"corporate" links to undesirable sites?
Mel, I am sorry for being so long winded on this blog but you have
just hit the nail on the head. Because of this blog, personal emails
from folks from this blog and other contacts in Adventist education,
something hit home for me about a month ago. Let me start with few
words of lead in. There is a demand for Christian education at least
in most areas of the country that I have been able to get statistics.
Those groups wanting Christian education are usually willing and able
to pay full tuition. There is a subgroup of parents without the
financial ability that also want Christian education for their
children. Other Christian educational institutions are finding ways
to incorporate those less advantaged individuals into their system
without bankrupting their system. Homeschooling has taken many
Adventist parents with the ability to pay away from our brick and
mortar schools. Those Adventist parents often use a product called A
Beka Academy, a Christian homeschool product. In general and across
the nation, Adventist Christian education is not considered a "good
value" for the investment and many parents believe there are better
alternative choices.
Now this is the part that I just figured out, however, everyone else
already knew it (my problem being a new Adventist). Adventist schools
are locally owned and operated (that is, the day schools in the US).
Here is my spin on the issue. We are a franchise model without the
benefit of well developed franchise resources except for marketing
material, accreditation, and HR assistance. We are forced to think
about only one school, our local constituent school. What if we were
free to think about the entire system? Here are some wild ideas.
Take a recently closed boarding school and reopen it as a special
school for trouble kids of the rich. Rich people will pay as much as
$40,000 a year for their screwed up kids, just look at Brittney
Spears. There is big money in that specialty market and that money
could be reinvested into Adventist education national wide. It would
also promote our faith in a general sense.
We develop educational content every day. Some teachers are better
than others. Lets capture that talent. Put a video cam in the hands
of a teenager and let them post it to YouTube (or SpiritFlash) or live
stream to another campus using DimDim (with two way interaction and it
is free). All this stuff is free and most of it works really nice!
Podcast the thing but let the Union or the NAD manage the distribution
of the content over time to other schools as they come on-line with
the concept of "Shared Content".
Partner with 3ABN, or their satellite supplier. There are 3 open
channels on my box at home. These channels are open and are unused at
the moment. It is a low tech solution to get quality content to a
small school room in a rural area for cheap using a common TV. Place
a 3 page workbook and a one page quiz in a pdf format on the internet
and bingo, that teacher has her resources for that day's math class
and the quiz. Post all this stuff to IUniversity or what ever it is
called on ITunes. Its free!
Have the delivery of the content managed by the NAD (or the Union) and
not by the originating math teacher in front of the camera. Let's
engage the entire system of Adventist education truly into an
educational system and not just a bunch of helpless old men sitting
around talking about the past.
Let the kids work the cameras and do the up loading. They understand
the terms "bit torrent," posting, they can text message, they know
ITunes, etc. Most of our leaders don't even blog, much less email.
If Donald Trump owned all this real estate, he would make it work.
And conversely, put some of this stuff in the hands of our very
creative young and make Adventist education an Evangelistic Mission
again. Give the kids the rules and the boundaries for the project and
I will guarantee you, they will solve the problem beyond our wildest
dream of the thoughts of us old men. Youth is the beginning of wisdom
of the next generation. We just need to recognize it and not be
afraid of it.
Educating our Adventist children needs to beyond the single campus
concept. It needs to be better (or at least as good) as homeschool
products. We need to leverage the social benefit, both the immediate
and life long benefit of having Adventist relationships that
homeschoolling can not offer. Because those benefits are real. We
will only be able to grow the faith in the future if we stick together
as a religious group.
I spoke with an architect that consults with a lot of faith based
organizations. His comment was, that most successful faith based
educational systems have to rely on a certain component of external
(or non-constituent funding). He specifically mentioned the Jewish
community and how advanced their were. He said, they plan on
attracting at least 30% non-Jews to the system to be able to fund the
quality of institution that they want to build. He also said by
having an open campus to all, they are able to attract a significant
amount of non-Jewish corporate money. He said, their institutions are
great! What an interesting perspective.
a brother in Christ
Tom Krazan
Central California
2.0 technology. There are a lot of really cool free services out
there. Just a general question, what is the preference with Ning
(which I noticed had some Adventist socially unacceptable groups) as
compared to something more like Blogger where I know I can control the
"corporate" links to undesirable sites?
Mel, I am sorry for being so long winded on this blog but you have
just hit the nail on the head. Because of this blog, personal emails
from folks from this blog and other contacts in Adventist education,
something hit home for me about a month ago. Let me start with few
words of lead in. There is a demand for Christian education at least
in most areas of the country that I have been able to get statistics.
Those groups wanting Christian education are usually willing and able
to pay full tuition. There is a subgroup of parents without the
financial ability that also want Christian education for their
children. Other Christian educational institutions are finding ways
to incorporate those less advantaged individuals into their system
without bankrupting their system. Homeschooling has taken many
Adventist parents with the ability to pay away from our brick and
mortar schools. Those Adventist parents often use a product called A
Beka Academy, a Christian homeschool product. In general and across
the nation, Adventist Christian education is not considered a "good
value" for the investment and many parents believe there are better
alternative choices.
Now this is the part that I just figured out, however, everyone else
already knew it (my problem being a new Adventist). Adventist schools
are locally owned and operated (that is, the day schools in the US).
Here is my spin on the issue. We are a franchise model without the
benefit of well developed franchise resources except for marketing
material, accreditation, and HR assistance. We are forced to think
about only one school, our local constituent school. What if we were
free to think about the entire system? Here are some wild ideas.
Take a recently closed boarding school and reopen it as a special
school for trouble kids of the rich. Rich people will pay as much as
$40,000 a year for their screwed up kids, just look at Brittney
Spears. There is big money in that specialty market and that money
could be reinvested into Adventist education national wide. It would
also promote our faith in a general sense.
We develop educational content every day. Some teachers are better
than others. Lets capture that talent. Put a video cam in the hands
of a teenager and let them post it to YouTube (or SpiritFlash) or live
stream to another campus using DimDim (with two way interaction and it
is free). All this stuff is free and most of it works really nice!
Podcast the thing but let the Union or the NAD manage the distribution
of the content over time to other schools as they come on-line with
the concept of "Shared Content".
Partner with 3ABN, or their satellite supplier. There are 3 open
channels on my box at home. These channels are open and are unused at
the moment. It is a low tech solution to get quality content to a
small school room in a rural area for cheap using a common TV. Place
a 3 page workbook and a one page quiz in a pdf format on the internet
and bingo, that teacher has her resources for that day's math class
and the quiz. Post all this stuff to IUniversity or what ever it is
called on ITunes. Its free!
Have the delivery of the content managed by the NAD (or the Union) and
not by the originating math teacher in front of the camera. Let's
engage the entire system of Adventist education truly into an
educational system and not just a bunch of helpless old men sitting
around talking about the past.
Let the kids work the cameras and do the up loading. They understand
the terms "bit torrent," posting, they can text message, they know
ITunes, etc. Most of our leaders don't even blog, much less email.
If Donald Trump owned all this real estate, he would make it work.
And conversely, put some of this stuff in the hands of our very
creative young and make Adventist education an Evangelistic Mission
again. Give the kids the rules and the boundaries for the project and
I will guarantee you, they will solve the problem beyond our wildest
dream of the thoughts of us old men. Youth is the beginning of wisdom
of the next generation. We just need to recognize it and not be
afraid of it.
Educating our Adventist children needs to beyond the single campus
concept. It needs to be better (or at least as good) as homeschool
products. We need to leverage the social benefit, both the immediate
and life long benefit of having Adventist relationships that
homeschoolling can not offer. Because those benefits are real. We
will only be able to grow the faith in the future if we stick together
as a religious group.
I spoke with an architect that consults with a lot of faith based
organizations. His comment was, that most successful faith based
educational systems have to rely on a certain component of external
(or non-constituent funding). He specifically mentioned the Jewish
community and how advanced their were. He said, they plan on
attracting at least 30% non-Jews to the system to be able to fund the
quality of institution that they want to build. He also said by
having an open campus to all, they are able to attract a significant
amount of non-Jewish corporate money. He said, their institutions are
great! What an interesting perspective.
a brother in Christ
Tom Krazan
Central California
Richard Thomason
Jan 31, 2008, 7:37:17 PM1/31/08
to Adventis...@googlegroups.com
Good question. My preference with Ning is that it's more MySpace like in
that you've got many sections to it which can all be modified. My reason
for mentioning it here on Edforum is for those with older age students for
whom ads aren't a big issue. I think it would make a great platform for
teacher social networking as well. For younger students, I think Ning would
be very attractive. All of my 4th-8th graders think so anyway.
The downside, as you pointed out, is the advertising, and I'm in dialog with
them about whether they'd be willing to strip the advertising for educators,
but I'm not holding my breath. <g> After all, ads are how they make their
money. Another educator has apparently asked for similar considerations to
no effect. I certainly don't think I can use it for elementary age students.
that you've got many sections to it which can all be modified. My reason
for mentioning it here on Edforum is for those with older age students for
whom ads aren't a big issue. I think it would make a great platform for
teacher social networking as well. For younger students, I think Ning would
be very attractive. All of my 4th-8th graders think so anyway.
The downside, as you pointed out, is the advertising, and I'm in dialog with
them about whether they'd be willing to strip the advertising for educators,
but I'm not holding my breath. <g> After all, ads are how they make their
money. Another educator has apparently asked for similar considerations to
no effect. I certainly don't think I can use it for elementary age students.
I may be missing your point about non-SDA groups on Ning. Google Groups and
Yahoo Groups have them also. Controlling the ads are really the only
drawback I see.
Richard T.
MCE
Tom
Feb 1, 2008, 10:39:35 AM2/1/08
to Adventist Education Forum
Sorry Richard for not being clear. On the front page of Ning there is
a graphic for a group showing two young gay boys kissing. I am
probably one of the most liberal Adventists in the clan but I truly
believe that there is a specific need for parental control of the
timing of provocative real life information that needs to be shared
with each child on their own special time table. Other wise this
provocative information can result in experimental perversion as
compared with developing into true mature love. This guidance is what
parents and teachers bring to the table as compared to children doing
self instruction through random surfing on the internet.
There is nothing on Ning that stops your students from clicking onto
that gay site for young boys. If you are teaching at Andrews, I would
have no problem with that. But if you are leading young people (still
very much in their formative years) to social sites that not only have
back doors BUT FRONT DOORS to soft porn, I have a problem with that
approach.
Simply said, let a young boy find a Playboy and he will look at it.
So dad, hide the Playboys. Most these social sites purposely do not
hide the Playboys. Perversion adds subscribers and numbers add to
their value during an IPO in the eyes of the venture capitalists.
That is simply biz and has nothing to do with morality. Business is
neither moral or amoral, only business leaders are which determines
how they use the tools of their trade.
Why don't you consider an alternate. Instead of sending the kids to a
point, click and drop (no brains needed) social webpage building site,
why don't you teach the kids Dreamweaver, Frontpage, Flash, Java or
some other "real" internet development tool that has career value for
the future. It teaches a trade, it provides a creative outlet, there
are very cheap sites to post on, this would be much more insulted form
a lot of that creepy stuff including the creeps, and it would be
cutting edge for Adventist education and not just a copy cat. There
is a Christian school here in Fresno that has focuses that creative
web energy of their students into an electronic newsletter that has
been recognized as being the "Best in the Nation" for several years in
a row. We can do something like that. Their electronic newsletter is
doing so well that it now attracts business advertisement dollars.
And these guys are not even Jewish. Here is their website.
http://www.thefeather.com/
This site is all run by kids that are same age as ours. Wow, what
inspired children can do!
It seems to me that we, Adventists, expect less out of our kids and
somehow we get it. Can that be added as another prophetic fulfillment
for a Dan/Rev seminar? I like when we scare people to death and then
ask them if they want to be an Adventist. Sounds like a good rational
strategy, maybe Pepsi will what to try it for awhile.
Tom Krazan
Central California
a graphic for a group showing two young gay boys kissing. I am
probably one of the most liberal Adventists in the clan but I truly
believe that there is a specific need for parental control of the
timing of provocative real life information that needs to be shared
with each child on their own special time table. Other wise this
provocative information can result in experimental perversion as
compared with developing into true mature love. This guidance is what
parents and teachers bring to the table as compared to children doing
self instruction through random surfing on the internet.
There is nothing on Ning that stops your students from clicking onto
that gay site for young boys. If you are teaching at Andrews, I would
have no problem with that. But if you are leading young people (still
very much in their formative years) to social sites that not only have
back doors BUT FRONT DOORS to soft porn, I have a problem with that
approach.
Simply said, let a young boy find a Playboy and he will look at it.
So dad, hide the Playboys. Most these social sites purposely do not
hide the Playboys. Perversion adds subscribers and numbers add to
their value during an IPO in the eyes of the venture capitalists.
That is simply biz and has nothing to do with morality. Business is
neither moral or amoral, only business leaders are which determines
how they use the tools of their trade.
Why don't you consider an alternate. Instead of sending the kids to a
point, click and drop (no brains needed) social webpage building site,
why don't you teach the kids Dreamweaver, Frontpage, Flash, Java or
some other "real" internet development tool that has career value for
the future. It teaches a trade, it provides a creative outlet, there
are very cheap sites to post on, this would be much more insulted form
a lot of that creepy stuff including the creeps, and it would be
cutting edge for Adventist education and not just a copy cat. There
is a Christian school here in Fresno that has focuses that creative
web energy of their students into an electronic newsletter that has
been recognized as being the "Best in the Nation" for several years in
a row. We can do something like that. Their electronic newsletter is
doing so well that it now attracts business advertisement dollars.
And these guys are not even Jewish. Here is their website.
http://www.thefeather.com/
This site is all run by kids that are same age as ours. Wow, what
inspired children can do!
It seems to me that we, Adventists, expect less out of our kids and
somehow we get it. Can that be added as another prophetic fulfillment
for a Dan/Rev seminar? I like when we scare people to death and then
ask them if they want to be an Adventist. Sounds like a good rational
strategy, maybe Pepsi will what to try it for awhile.
Tom Krazan
Central California
Richard Thomason
Feb 1, 2008, 6:58:08 PM2/1/08
to Adventis...@googlegroups.com
Perhaps I'm the one not being clear. :) consider the following points
please:
1. The graphic you refer to is actually a page deep from the home page,
requiring one to click on either the "All Social Networks" link at the top,
or the "Explore More Social Networks" link near the bottom. (Yes, I'm
splitting hairs! <grin> See point 4 for solution.)
2. As it stands right now, I do not "officially" condone using Ning.com for
elementary or secondary age students, nor did I state we should be. I also
did not intend for my thoughts to be construed as a plug for a specific site
over another. Apologies if they did. I am looking at others, like Christian
based www.xianz.com for one. I do really like the features available in
Ning and haven't seen them elsewhere. Yes, like Google Groups, or Yahoo
Groups, it can be used for less desirable content.
3. I did state the legal aspects needed to be researched, if one were
considering use for students under age. Personally, should I decide Ning is
useful for my curriculum, I'll determine how well I can protect students
from the home page and other portions of their site, just as most of us in
education do for MySpace and other social networking sites.
4. Perhaps I should have provided a bit more detail about what happens when
you create a Ning site. Once you've created a Ning site, you have a URL that
can be pointed directly to, such as mysite.ning.com, thereby skipping the
home page altogether. IF... I were going to use Ning as a social networking
solution my students could use, I would naturally provide a link on our
school web site that would point my students directly to a login page for my
"private" Ning site, perhaps called mce.ning.com. Does this keep them from
going to Ning.com at home and searching through the groups? Not a bit.
There are other measures to help address that though.
I trust that clears up any misconceptions. :) Let me know if not.
please:
1. The graphic you refer to is actually a page deep from the home page,
requiring one to click on either the "All Social Networks" link at the top,
or the "Explore More Social Networks" link near the bottom. (Yes, I'm
splitting hairs! <grin> See point 4 for solution.)
2. As it stands right now, I do not "officially" condone using Ning.com for
elementary or secondary age students, nor did I state we should be. I also
did not intend for my thoughts to be construed as a plug for a specific site
over another. Apologies if they did. I am looking at others, like Christian
based www.xianz.com for one. I do really like the features available in
Ning and haven't seen them elsewhere. Yes, like Google Groups, or Yahoo
Groups, it can be used for less desirable content.
3. I did state the legal aspects needed to be researched, if one were
considering use for students under age. Personally, should I decide Ning is
useful for my curriculum, I'll determine how well I can protect students
from the home page and other portions of their site, just as most of us in
education do for MySpace and other social networking sites.
4. Perhaps I should have provided a bit more detail about what happens when
you create a Ning site. Once you've created a Ning site, you have a URL that
can be pointed directly to, such as mysite.ning.com, thereby skipping the
home page altogether. IF... I were going to use Ning as a social networking
solution my students could use, I would naturally provide a link on our
school web site that would point my students directly to a login page for my
"private" Ning site, perhaps called mce.ning.com. Does this keep them from
going to Ning.com at home and searching through the groups? Not a bit.
There are other measures to help address that though.
I trust that clears up any misconceptions. :) Let me know if not.
The immediate point I was hoping to make, was simply to pique interest in
taking advantage of the new Web 2.0 tools that can be used to enhance
communication in our many unique situations.
As for your suggestion about teaching "real" internet development tools like
Frontpage, Dreamweaver, Java, Flash, etc, I think it's right on target, but
can we start a new thread to keep that separate from this one? It's getting
long. :)
Sincerely,
Richard Thomason
MCE
annab...@aol.com
Jan 27, 2008, 10:20:57 PM1/27/08
to Adventis...@googlegroups.com
Hi Erik.
The group is just starting and will have the first meeting in early February. We anticipate opening no later than fall 2010, but hopefully 2009. I'll keep you posted if you are interested.
Anna
The group is just starting and will have the first meeting in early February. We anticipate opening no later than fall 2010, but hopefully 2009. I'll keep you posted if you are interested.
Anna
Erik Borges
Feb 10, 2008, 8:45:01 PM2/10/08
to adventis...@googlegroups.com
ok sounds good.. :) thanks much.. erik
To: Adventis...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [EdForum] Re: Something Changed about 35 or 40 years ago
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:20:57 -0500
From: annab...@aol.com
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