Spiritual Advancement

[Rodger]

Can spiritual advancement occur when bound to a belief system?

Can beliefs be held without having a belief system?

[Marcus]

.


Belief

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia

For other uses, see Faith (disambiguation).
Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea. Formal usage of
the word "faith" is usually reserved for concepts of religion, as in
theology, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a
transcendent reality (ergo a belief in a spiritual nature and in
spiritual immortality), or else in a Supreme Being and said being's
role in the order of transcendent, spiritual things.

Belief-system.

I believe there is a place called Australia. I've never been there
but I trust in those who report on it’s existence. My belief is my
trust in their report. This affect applies to all things beyond my
direct experience of it. Even direct experience requires trust, of
the five simple senses and their limited reports. Ultimately even
consciousness itself requires a degree of trust.

A personnel belief system is fundamental to the intellectual
experience of self.

“Can beliefs be held without having a belief system? “
We carry an inherent knowing which constantly whispers truth. This is
ever present but generally drowned-out by the ravings of the ego.

The belief system is only your ability to trust. There was a little
issue between Winston Churchill and Adolf Hilter a while back. They
both said they where doing God’s work. Making the world a better
place to live. At the time, who should you believe ? It seemed
solely dependant on what side of the river you where born.

The caption “spiritual advancement” seems to snag heavily against any
form of dependency. The opposite perhaps. Spiritual advancement
being freedom any from of dependency.

Only Opinion :--
Spiritual awareness emerges as ever present, when dependency no longer
gets in the way.
In all fairness, I feel sure this is the core message of all
religions. It’s just human nature to lapses into sue-do spiritual
politics and materialism.
Left alone, surrounded by nature's peace. We would all naturally be
spiritual.

Our true nature is in acceptance and harmony with the now.




.

[MarkJ]

i don't believe in spiritual advancement....... =0

the 'clean slate' belief says that nothing is held and all falls off
since anything to do with spiritual advancement has more to do with
what you let go of than with what you gain. will this give me
spiritual advancement? doubt it. 'i' can do nothing to advance the
spiritual. the spiritual does what it does.

the belief that the dropping of belief will 'make this easier' is all
there is in thought but what makes it happen has nothing to do with
thinking.

[godszen]

Rodger wrote:
> Can spiritual advancement occur when bound to a belief system?
>
> Can beliefs be held without having a belief system?

give up now before it's too late!

oops, too late......

[Rodger]

What should consciousness ultimately trust,Marcus?

> > Can beliefs be held without having a belief system?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Rodger]

Mark,

You said,'i' can do nothing to advance the spiritual.the spiritual
does what it does'.

The spiritual does what it does? Are you not this spiritual, doing
what it does,or do you consider the spiritual as something other and
separate controlling you?

This 'i' which can do nothing,could this be 'the done'...the spiritual
advancement...the advanced spirit?And,ultimately,is this 'i' you,or
not?

You say spiritual advancement has more to do with loss than gain.That
seems right to me.On the other hand,what about,for every loss is a
gain = balance?

About,'the belief that the dropping of belief will make all this
easier'...is it about the belief in dropping belief?
I don't get,'it has nothing to do with thinking'. Belief has nothing
to do with thinking? Clear me up,bro.

[Ram]

When a thought is lost (disappears) what is gained? Belief is
something deemed to be true until proven otherwise. Being convinced of
something is belief (which may or may not be true) whereas conviction
is truth that cannot be disproven (therefore not merely a belief). I
don't need to believe that every appearance is destined to disappear.
Simple observation is enough to support that conviction. That
consciousness and all of its content is an appearance is not merely a
belief. Initially some faith, based in earnestness and the spirit of
open-minded enquiry, is required to allow for the possibility that
something said by one who is self-realized may be true. Without some
initial leap of faith there is no room to allow for the proving or
disproving of what has been heard, and one simply remains stagnant in
their belief.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Rodger]

When 'a' thought is lost what is gained? One thought follows
another...moment to moment.When...as...the moment passes it is only
lost in...to... the present moment.

What happens when thought is lost?

Observation may support conviction (which is ultimately still
belief),but there are innocent persons in prisons.Believe it,or not!

When it comes to consciousness,neither belief nor conviction is
required to have it,know it,be it.Simply observe that you are
consciousness,consciously observing.

Although 'the spirit of open-mindedness' and being open to
possibilities sounds good...is good...open mind is not really
possible.

[MarkJ]

> The spiritual does what it does? Are you not this spiritual, doing
> what it does,or do you consider the spiritual as something other and
> separate controlling you?

Why would a statement describing an aspect of myself mean that I think
it's separate? This body's tongue is pink, covered in saliva and
taste buds. Do I now think that my tongue is a separate entity
controling my taste? Would I say 'I am pink, covered in saliva and
taste buds'? Description can not be done without creating distance
from what is being described right? Even if it is me that is being
described, it still must be put in some form of 'external' format in
the imagination or communicating it would be impossible. Truthfully
(what ever that means) I have no way of describing anything about me
from this perspective but must pretend to be outside of me by use of
thought and imagination. It isn't really happening but I am
pretending it is. Just like I am pretending to be someone.

> You say spiritual advancement has more to do with loss than gain.That
> seems right to me.On the other hand,what about,for every loss is a
> gain = balance?

I say that there are methods and beliefs that make that statement. I
used the name 'clean slate' to identify what one might be called.
From this perspective I look at belief statements and neither accept
or reject them. I hold on to every day knowledge like 'how to change
the oil in a car' but not 'what am i' or 'how do i live' type belief
statements or the knowledge they prescribe. I don't see those as
necessary. If asked that type of question, I answer from what is here
now immediately and spontaneously.

> About,'the belief that the dropping of belief will make all this
> easier'...is it about the belief in dropping belief?
> I don't get,'it has nothing to do with thinking'. Belief has nothing
> to do with thinking? Clear me up,bro.

Belief has to do with thinking, it is thinking and often the belief is
held in hopes that it will make living easier in some way. I don't
hold that. What is making things happen is not confined by my
belief. Though many say 'my perception creates my reality', my belief
confines my perception. If I say 'I don't know but I will find out'
or 'I'll see when it happens' I am saying that I have no idea what is
going to happen or what is happening but I am open to experience it in
what ever way it unfolds. Holding any preconceived notions and, once
'what ever is happening' is past, hanging on to any interpretation of
the event is unnecessary for me.

Conviction or faith, while important to many, is not something I care
about. I don't need faith when all that is necessary is to look and
see for myself. What is happening is happening with or without my
faith or conviction. My knowledge or lack of doesn't change it in any
way. That is not a statement of faith. Just an experiencial
observation.

Belief or not. It only impacts the way I think.

Does that clear it up?


Mark

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Ram]

"there are innocent persons in prisons.Believe it,or not!"

- I believe it, unless proven otherwise.

"open mind is not really possible."

Huh? Is there some point behind this wordplay, or just close-
mindedness?

:O)

[Ram]

"I don't need faith when all that is necessary is to look and see for
myself."

- Sounds like conviction to me.

Faith is simply a temporary tool. Ignored by most, useful to some, and
a thing of the past for a few.

[MarkJ]

I guess it could be called conviction if viewed externally.

I would describe it more as wide eyed curious nakedness than what I
see described as the definition of conviction.

That nakedness continues to deepen in sensitivity completely on its
own. I don't see it as unique to me but in everyone naturally but may
be obscured by thought and distraction. The 'gut feeling' may be an
obscured view of it. I don't know or remember.

I have to agree that Faith is a tool and like all tools should be put
away where it belongs when your done with it.

Mark

[Ram]

What remains when curiousity is satisfied and dissipates?

Nakedness deepening isn't really naked is it, if it is clothed in any
sense of a deepening. A good opportunity for a segue into a quote from
the "Avadhut Gita" but the motivation is lacking. Where's empty when
we need him?

Gotta run, nice chatting with you.

[MarkJ]

Just descriptive language and like all descriptive language can be
contradicted or found in flaw.

Curuosity is just describing the way sensory experience is approached.

Nakedness is just to say that the skin is bear and sensative.

Just words.

[Ram]

Yep, more than one way to skin a bear.

How do you kill a cat? Point a gun (or a finger) at the cat, and out
of curiousity, the cat will inevitably come up to have a sniff. BOOM!
Curiousity killed the cat. No more cat, no more curiousity.

:O)

[MarkJ]

poor kitty.

this curiosity is unassuming undirected uncontrived inquisitiveness

the nerves on the back of the eye are curious.

the flower is curiously looking to the sun

there is no curiousity about why only curiousity being curious.

= )

[Rodger]

Point is,there is no such thing as open mind.Believe it,or not.

[Rodger]

Yes,thank you.(ruckus raising again)

'I don't need faith when all that is necessary is to look and see for
myself'. Good one.

[MarkJ]

wish I knew what it meant..... =)

[empty2]

Hi Ram,

Still here, just watching....but sorry, only 'nothing' to say, as
usual.

(www.beempty.com)

[empty2]

Is mind the collective noun for all its components, - thoughts,
memory, perception, sense of 'I' etc, or is Mind the totally 'open'
emptiness in which these may or may not momentarily appear?

"it's all in the mind" indicates its infinitely open capacity to
contain all.......yet always it remains pure and untouched, as itself,
completely empty.

Sorry to play with definitions, another name for the nameless, but
this one is 'closer than you think'. Where are you looking? Where are
you seeing? What is this you, this mind that is all, a
multiplicity..........yet nothing particular at all?

One, totally open, - so open it has no boundaries nor centre, up/down,
left or right, nor 'size', no-thing and no concept, - one single (not
even that) Mind.

True, nothing here differs from me (mind as a momentary identity/
manifestation).........but in me (Pure Mind/Emptiness) the concept of
difference cannot even arise.

[empty2]

....no sight, no sound.......nor this concept of their absence...

Why did you wake 'me' up, Ram?

Just to express the potential Sandeep ('lighting the way') of what
would or could be if it was or could, but can't?

[empty2]

As suggested......from the Avadhuta Gita:

Chapter 4

Verse 3: "I have developed no false notion that all this reality comes
into existence or that this unreality comes into existence. I am free
from disease, - my form has been extinguished."

Verse 9: "There is nothing which pervades or is pervaded. There is no
abode nor is there the abodeless. How shall I speak of void and non-
void? I am free from disease, - my form has been extinguished."

Verse 10: "There is no-one to understand and nothing, indeed, to be
understood. I have no cause and effect. How shall I say that I am
conceivable or inconceivable? I am free from disease, - my form has
been extinguished."

Verse 11: "There is nothing dividing, nothing to be divided. I have
nothing to know with and nothing to be known. How shall I then speak
of coming and going, my child? I am free from disease, - my form has
been extinguished."

Verse 25: " There is verily no versification where one knows nothing.
The supreme and free one, absorbed in the consciousness of the
homogeneous being and pure of thought, prattles about the truth."

[Rodger]

it's all in the mind.

'all' is in the mind.

what is this mind that is all? a multiplicity...every
particular,that's all.

one...without a second...has boundries.
containing all...is all,as all.'without separation' is the boundary.

there is nothing outside you...'all' is in mind.

the boundries of mind may expand but however far the expansion,that's
as far as it goes.and,'as far as it goes' is mind's boundries.

'beyond mind' is of mind, as mind contains all...is boundary,as mind
contains all...is it's own boundary...contains it's own boundries.

having boundries,mind is not open...however far expansion extends.

however far expansion extends,however momentary the appearance,mind
will always be within those limits.

[empty2]

If the expansion of mind that you talk about consists of thoughts,
concepts, feelings and things, and the concept of 'you' as all, then
yes it is limited like the frog knowing no more than its pond.

If you notice, thoughts (and all of the above) come from no-where and
go to nowhere. Heaven forbid that they get trapped within the limits
of your mind, rebounding off its 'walls' eternally! Thank god for
emptiness!

That which comes from nowhere, even momentarily, then goes to nowhere,
can hardly be said to exist in the middle. If apparently it does, that
middle, or mind wherein anything is perceived must be so porous as to
hardly exist either viz-a-viz the emptiness on either side.

But you and I, Rodger are like parallel railway tracks never to meet!
I prefer to say there is no beginning or end and therefore the middle
is deprived of consequence or significance. You prefer to say it
begins when you see it and ends when you don't and in the middle/
meantime this, you, is all that is.

Two of us riding nowhere
Spending someone's
Hard earned pay
You and me Sunday driving
Not arriving
On our way back home
We're on our way home
We're on our way home
We're going home

Two of us sending postcards
Writing letters
On my wall
You and me burning matches
Lifting latches
On our way back home
We're on our way home
We're on our way home
We're going home

You and I have memories
Longer than the road that stretches out ahead

Two of us wearing raincoats
Standing so low
In the sun
You and me chasing paper
Getting nowhere
On our way back home
We're on our way home
We're on our way home
We're going home

You and I have memories
Longer than the road that stretches out ahead

Two of us wearing raincoats
Standing solo
In the sun
You and me chasing paper
Getting nowhere
On our way back home
We're on our way home
We're on our way home
We're going home

We're going home
Better believe it

[Anandanand]

Hi Empty,

I am kind of broaching in. "It is not you that speaks, it is thy
father who speaks through you"

While being bound by the senses one has to backtrack to the source of
energy that drives these senses, to know that a tree falling in a
forest makes a sound. Through the same senses one has to know that no
sound was ever created.

In that sense it's all you, in the same sense it's all emptiness.

does that make any sense ? at least non-sense ?

[Rodger]

Thoughts do not come from no-where.There is no where for thoughts to
come from.Thought is nowhere...now here.Having no where to come from
and no where to go to,thought is trapped within it's own limits or
bounderies of now.

The no-where which thought seems to come from,the no-where thoughts
thinks it comes from,is thoughts attempt to fill it's own
emptiness.This emptiness is always with thought,as thought...is
thought.The emptiness is not a separate item,or place that thought can
come from.If though can be said to come,it comes with and as...not
from.

[Rodger]

Hi,Andy!

Broach on in,buddy.

'In that sense it's all you,in the same sense it's all emptiness'.

Right...all that emptiness is you.There is nothing outside you.All
that emptiness is you as you,within you,etc.

If it is a matter of coming from,emptiness comes from you rather than
you coming from emptiness.

I may be coming from the point of view of emptiness,but whatever the
point of view is that point of view does not come from emptiness...it
comes from you,as it's all you.There is nothing outside you,so the
only place to find this emptiness is inside you,as you.

[empty2]

Hi Anandanand, and Rodger,

Well, 'you' as everything and nothing........call it what you like, as
long as it's not personal, as in frog in a pond.

Me, I understand none of this twisty mind-stuff, Rodger.....too much
of a pain to try......give me only emptiness any day.....even no
concept of here or now, that requires an I (or you) to know it.

So back to sleep.

Goodnight.

> > > > > > > > > > > thinking.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[Rodger]

sweet dreams.

> > > > > > > > > > > to do with thinking? Clear me up,bro.- Hide quoted text -

[Ram]

12. If a speaker says that the unmoving Brahman has itself become the
moving visible creation, or that the moving creation is Brahman, this
will in many situations only create confusion and arguments without
any clear conclusion.

13. It is an error if he states that the moving and the unmoving are
both only Life-Energy (Chaitanya) alone that appear in different forms
yet cannot explain their distinct natures.

14. In this way, he unnecessarily creates confusion in people's minds
that cannot be resolved. This only results in many incorrect
conclusions and causes a great deal of confusion.

15. If he says Illusion Parabrahman, and that Parabrahman is a
delusion, this only shows the delusional nature of his knowledge
through his speech.

- Samartha Ramdas from Dasbodh

[Anandanand]

Hi Empty,

A good sleep is necessary for spiritual advancement.

> ...
>
> read more »

[empty2]

Yo!

> > > > > > > > > > > > You say spiritual advancement has more to do with loss than- Hide quoted text -

[jivadas]

Poetic Faith [the only kind I recognize] is what Coleridge called 'the
willing suspension of disbelief'. I call it the 'as-if' phenomenon, or
pretending.

Begorrah, praise the Lord [may the Angels rain showers upon Him!] is
another matter.

On Aug 23, 10:06 am, Ram <ram.samar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When a thought is lost (disappears) what is gained? Belief is
> something deemed to be true until proven otherwise.


Being convinced of
> something is belief (which may or may not be true) whereas conviction
> is truth that cannot be disproven (therefore not merely a belief).

Conviction is getting sentenced to some penitential state of mind.

I
> don't need to believe that every appearance is destined to disappear.
> Simple observation is enough to support that conviction. That
> consciousness and all of its content is an appearance is not merely a
> belief. Initially some faith, based in earnestness and the spirit of
> open-minded enquiry, is required to allow for the possibility that
> something said by one who is self-realized may be true. Without some
> initial leap of faith there is no room to allow for the proving or
> disproving of what has been heard, and one simply remains stagnant in
> their belief.

Christians often speak of a 'leap' of faith. That is how they manage.
When Jesus heals the Centurion's son, the Centurion says 'Lord, I
believe: help thou [help me against] my unbelief!' ['Help' here means
'prevent'.]

Then he believes, and the miracle is done.

xØx
jd

[Ram]

Do you have faith in these stated beliefs? Are you convinced?

When first told that the MahaRamayana was a blessing to mankind, did
you automatically believe it before any exposure to it? When first
hearing that Ramana was a great rishi, did you know it to be true
without any knowledge of Him? Or was there some leap of faith required
until these truths were verified for yourself? Suspension of belief or
disblief, leap of faith; same thing, different words.

;~)

Really enjoying reading Yoga Vasishtha JD! Thanks!

[MarkJ]

Why is Faith or Begorrah necessary? In what way do they change or
influence what is happening?

Why is any control over circumstances needed? Why is a miracle
necessary? What is being praised when Begorrah is proclaimed?

To me, these are all cultural ideas and have nothing to do with our
true nature.

A man says 'help me keep my wife in this relationship with me, her
body is dying.' to his icon of faith.
If she stays he will see a miracle, if she goes he will see a curse or
a test of faith.
To me, both are false and are learned perspectives.

What is there that we need to believe? Can't I just say 'I don't know
but my eyes are open to see what will happen.'?

Mark

[Rodger]

'Can't I just say,I don't know but my eyes are open to see what will
happen next'?

Won't help...not if you sill got your hand over them.

> >  jd- Hide quoted text -

[Rodger]

'Why is control over circumstances needed'?

I can't help it...due to circumstances beyond my control.

On Aug 27, 1:57 pm, MarkJ <mark_jordan2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Rodger]

'To me,these are all cultural ideas and have nothing to do with our
true nature'.

Where do your ideas come from?
What is your (learned?) perspective regarding our true nature?

And,who the hell is Begorrah? Faith's sugar-daddy?

And,why are you asking all the questions? Is it necessary? Will they
influence or change what is happening? By the way,what is happening?

On Aug 27, 1:57 pm, MarkJ <mark_jordan2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[MarkJ]

It happens on its own.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Rodger]

What happens on it's own?

[MarkJ]

Questions are backward statements.

From what I see, all ideas come from the same place.

To me, our true nature is an imaginary idea whose essence is living
unscathed concurently with all of the ideas and talk about it.

Apparently, Beggora is an exclamation meaning "by God" according to
references.

My questions will do nothing and are completely unnecessary.

For me, the stimulation of these senses is being interpreted as an
exterior world of happenings defined by prior conditioning.

If I pull my hand from my eyes I am here now.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

What we call 'happening'.

[Jerry Miller]

Belief for me is that which I suspect to be true, but cannot prove upon this plane of existence. I "believe" my spirit will outlast my present incarnation. Possibly "true," but presently only belief.

[Rodger]

Jerry,

Mark has said,questions are backward statements.Would that make
statements backward questions?

As I understand what you're saying,there is a suspicion that your
spirit will outlast your present incarnation,but along with that
suspicion is doubt...you are open to the possibility that your spirit
will not outlast this present incarnation.There is a question about
that.Is that a correct understanding of what you're saying?

[jivadas]

On Aug 27, 5:12 am, Ram <ram.samar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you have faith in these stated beliefs? Are you convinced?
>
> When first told that the MahaRamayana was a blessing to mankind, did
> you automatically believe it before any exposure to it?

Yes. It had the endorsement of Ramana. {It's probable that he used
the Laghu-Vasishtha, the excellent abridgement, in public; but no
doubt he had access to the Nirnaya Sagar edition for his private
reading}.

When first
> hearing that Ramana was a great rishi, did you know it to be true
> without any knowledge of Him?

No.
I was an ex-poet, es-playwright, ex-Auditor [Singer Corp.], newly
Hippie commune-ist, camping in the woods of Saltspring island,
carrying in my pack a copy of Shankara's Viveka-Chudamani in the
Prabhavananda/Isherwood translation; and a copy of Ramana's Collected
Works in the Osborne translation; and a well-worn copy of Ram Dass's
BE HERE NOW. Ram Dass was my first contact with the Sage of
Arunachala.
My practice became to focus the mind on the Hridayam, and accepted
the locus or _sthAnam_ as the Maharshi described it: above the navel
and below the chest, two digits to the right of the median of the
breastbone. But instead of practising enquiry, sometimes I would stare
at the Magic Photograph, that great Cartier-Bresson portrait with its
eyes full of love.
One day, in bed, with eyes closed, I was able to visualize the
portrait; and it dissolved into the experience of Savikalpa Samadhi.
I'll be discussing Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa in the groupSite sometime
in the next month or so, when the Translation is at the appropriate
point. I call them Space and Fire.
I enjoyed the Fire, but was afraid, at the time, to enter Space,
for fear of getting lost there.

> Or was there some leap of faith required
> until these truths were verified for yourself?

There was once an example of pure Begorrah faith in my youth, when I
went to the Mercy Seat at a Salvation Army meeting, and met God, and
went Soldiering for a couple of years, but I blush to recall those
days. I soon moved on to Catholicism, and a Primitive Benedictine
monastery. But meeting God stuck with me. At Christ in the Desert, I
listened to the silence.
But I moved on through zendos and Krishna temples and other such
places, and my test of a doctrine has always been the same: SHOW ME!
What is most enjoyable about the Vasishtha is that if you do as it
says, and says again, and again and again and again, then you will
attain Nirvana.
But it is not necessary to take it on faith. YV offers a vast
multitude of practices that lead to yogic experience. Experience leads
to belief. And you are ready for the next Canto. Lack of confirming
experience leads to doubt, and the only cure for that is Begorrah.
Arunachala Shiva! Or else a renewal of suspended disbelief as you
begin the next Canto.
But the best way to read YV is to pretend that you are Rama while I
translate, pretending that I am a Valmika bard.

xØx
jd

[Jerry Miller]

Nope. Nor am I hedging my bets. I'm just keeping an "open mind" on the subject. What I believe is what I believe. We have had this discussion before, and as long as I (rawgod) am alive to have this discussion the answer will remain the same whether I want it to or not. My belief will not make untruth truth. Nor will my unbelief make truth untrue. Truth is truth, and belief is belief. I am just being as honest as I know how to be. Life, and therefore death, is full of surprises...

[Rodger]

Nope!!?? Aw,man!
Oh,well. :)

(There's no such thing as an open mind.)

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Jerry Miller]

I do wonder why you bracket your statement, Rodger?

 

I have a mind, and it is my mind. It is not up to anyone to tell me in what state my mind can be. If I state my mind is open, as in open to new possibilities, who is to say it is not open. Only I can say that, and I do not say that. (However you mean your statement, that is your truth.) Brackets added just for you...

[Rodger]

I'm a bit uneducated,Jerry.I don't really know about proper puncuation
and all that.The brackets were like a 'ps' at the bottom of a
message...you know,like a 'by the way'.And,of course,it was said to
keep a conversation going.No real hidden agenda or anything like that.

About open mind...why did you put it this way,'open mind'.Looks sooo
enclosed.Ya know?
And,are you open to the possibility that there is no such thing as
open mind?

ps(by the way)...thanks for the brackets.Just for me,huh?You're a nice
guy,Jerry. :)

pps(or,is it pss?)...it is not for me to tell you what state to keep
your mind in,but 'playfulness' is not really a bad state...not in my
mind anyway.

[Rodger]

here's an old chinese proverb i just made up...

when the heart is open to the spirit of playfulness,the possibility of
something new...something different or other emerges on the
scene.perhaps,wedging it's way into a mind otherwise closed.

(made up for all...not just you,Jerry)

[Rodger]

or,you can remain closed...and empty,too.

[empty2]

or, to amuse yourself......say the opposite of anything anyone says,
sounding penny-wise but pound foolish.....

(do I hear the sound of one hand clapping......or slapping? Or maybe
one ass crapping.......)

>"when the heart is open to the spirit of playfulness,the possibility of
something new...something different or other emerges on the
scene.perhaps,wedging it's way into a mind otherwise closed.
(made up for all...not just you,Jerry)"

We live in hope.......it 'all' being you.

"Awareness limited by a sense of now, emptiness as a part of
something, it's all you means it isn't me, heart open, mind otherwise
closed, no such thing as an open mind, remain closed and empty
too".........Rodger, what exactly are you trying to say?

oooh, sock it to me baby!

does I love ya? does I love ya? you better believe it, man!

(sorry, I'm learning to speak American.......

[Rodger]

there's really only one ass...you just happen to be it's whole.

of course,to amuse myself.

what am i trying say? what are you trying to hear?

did a tree fall? did vibrations strike the ear? were they interpreted
as unpleasant?

learning to speak american,are you? that's nice.me,too.

put a sock in it,baby.

:)

[Ram]

"When first told that the MahaRamayana was a blessing to mankind, did
you automatically believe it before any exposure to it?

Yes. It had the endorsement of Ramana."

- A clear example of faith in the master, in the simplest of terms
that I'm using. Nothin' more, nothin' less. Then it was proven in your
own experience, and has become manifest in/as your Life.

No need to pretend about being Rama. His story is the story of the
Self.

Praise be to the anthill's krupa. (and krupa-das!) Pranams and Thanks!
again.

BTW - This body/mind's first exposure to Ramana was from "Be Here Now"
as well, way back in '79.

Jai Ram!

[Ram]

It's nice to be nice.

:O)

[empty2]

>what am i trying say?

that's no answer

>what are you trying to hear?

something worth hearing and hopefully making sense.....I've seen you
do it now and then but then sun gets clouded in a mist of strangely
muttering obscurity, totally closed, for example, to the idea of no-
one to think or be.

>did a tree fall? did vibrations strike the ear? were they interpreted
as unpleasant?

huh?

In English, ass means a donkey, a nice innocent animal, or
fool.......maybe you mean the arse that follows wherever you go...

>put a sock in it,baby

did a tree fall? did vibrations strike the ear? were they interpreted
as unpleasant?

What would RodgerNow be without friends to play with?

Dish and get dished.......would that be a universal law in your
opinion?

I confess I was hoping for a little bit more.......but you're just too
nice

(:)

On Aug 30, 9:46 pm, Rodger <rodge...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[MarkJ]

Ok, so now your making stuff up?

Looks good to me even if it is made up. Isn't that what those old
bastards did way back when? I'm sure they'd like me to believe they
were inspired by some greater authority. It all comes from a greater
something anyway.

[Rodger]

Ok,so tell me what's worth hearing and makes sense.I'll repeat it back
to you,for you.After all,this site is dedicated to you,what makes
sense to you,and only what's worth hearing to you.Nothing else should
matter but this since everything but that is emptiness anyway.

Like Ram said,it's nice to be nice.Above all I want to be
nice.So,again,what are you trying to hear?

You say you've seen me do it now and then.Really?

Since when have you ever seen me? Since when have you ever seen anyone
or anything other than yourself? (Remember,'it's all you'?)

Closed... to the idea...of no-one...to think...or be?

Big belly laugh.

If,In English,ass means a donkey then why not just say donkey,ass? Why
bother heaping all that additional junk upon the poor innocent
creature?So he can follow you around like some fool?

Now is now.Stop being an ass,and let the donkey be.

Stop your whining and complaining because you aren't getting from me
what you are hoping for yourself.

Can't know if this is what you hoped for but,hey...what you see is
what you get.

[Rodger]

And,those old bastards way back now are doing the same.

One old bastards greater authority is another old bastards greater
something.

Why make up something that looks bad? So I can know better? So my
better can look better than your better? So my better can look like
the best better?

Hey,look everyone...my better is best!

Oh,really? Wanna bet?

If I could get my best better in line with your best better,would I be
empty,too? Or,just full of made up shit?

Hey...as long as it's the best made up shit...

[empty2]

Ok, ok, Rodger, no need to get your knickers in a twist.......

Sorry I tweaked your tail a bit....playfully, just feeling like a
little fun.

Amusing for a while, but hardly in keeping with the thread (spiritual
advancement)......more like a spiritual stalemate if you ask me (no,
don't bother!)

.........miror, mirror, on the wall.........

Better and best? Surely it's about ideas, not personalities or
ownership.

I see you've jumped on my post in the other thread (dare I say, - as
usual?)......so see you over there....

[Rodger]

whose tail is tweaked? you are the one complaining about not hearing
what you want to hear.i offered to do that for you.again,what do you
want to hear?be more specific this time.'something of
value'...'something that makes sense' are rather loose terms,if you
ask me,making no good and clear sense,leaving them with little value.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO HEAR? i'll gladly say it for you.in that way you
can only get the best of ideas and be better in spiritual
advancement...you can be the bestest spiritually advanced personality
owned.

c'mon,man...sock it to me.what do you want to hear?

[empty2]

Oh, Rodger, Rodger, haven't we had enough of this?

What you said on the other thread was (mostly) ok by me, but you keep
on insisting on there being an I that is empty, whereas that can never
be really empty - that's the point.......much as you said re seeing.
So then, do you reckon this I is eternal and there will always be a
sense of I that will never dissolve?

As for this very egotistical little ding-dong, throwing personal
swipes at each other, it serves no purpose.....

Like blind men flailing about trying to hit something that isn't
there.

[Rodger]

Empty2,

When I've had enough I'll let you know.I have only been responding to
a post originated by you.In other words (with my bottom lip puckered
out),you started all this,man.

Well,I'm glad what I said on the other thread was (mostly) ok by
you.Is this spiritual progress?

The I is empty...empty of other,or inseparable from itself.

What I say may seem like a jumbled mess(all convoluted and shit)but,if
you would like to come out of your own jumbled mess,perhaps something
of value may be there in what I say.Either way,makes no difference to
me.

Life without beginning,no end,has no point of origin.It does not 'come
from',so has no emptiness beyond or other,other than the the emptiness
it comes with,comes as.In fact,it is not even correct to use the word
'comes'.

There is no empty separate from full...no not-knowing separate from
know.There is no other as other requires division,and the only
division is self-deception.

Do I reckon this I is eternal?

Does a bear shit in the woods? Well,if he lives there...

I do not live in the eternal,the eternal lives in me.

As for this egotistical throwing swipes at each other serving no
purpose...if that is a discovery for you,then perhaps the purpose of
spiritual advancement has been served.

> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[empty2]

You're right, I started it....

All a bit of a waste of time, really,

Getting you all worked up.

Sorry 'bout that.

(;)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > consciousness and all of its- Hide quoted text -

[Rodger]

What's to be sorry 'bout? Like energy,time can't really be wasted.

> > > > > > > > > > > conviction- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

-Why make up something that looks bad? So I can know better? So my

better can look better than your better? So my better can look like

the best better?-

I couldn't agree more, well maybe. Fashion and taste. Is my belief
better or the way I present it? Hey look everyone, my belief system
is best! It's all made up shit.

Watch out now. That could challenge some sentamental feelings about
'the old ways' and 'ancient wisdom'. I might wind up back in the
'your ignorant if you don't appreciate ancient wisdom' catagory.

[Rodger]

I would bet you appreciate a good movie (whatever that is to you) as
much as the next.But,when you leave the theatre...

There's enough right here,right now for me to believe in.Like,old dogs
and children,and watermelon wine.

I was once told that ignorance is the highest state available to man.

[MarkJ]

> I was once told that ignorance is the highest state available to man.

Amen bro!

Not knowing and not naming is a fine place to live.

Watching kids change as the grow and getting lost in the Arizona sky
is plenty.

I find it hard to stay engaged long enough to sit through most
movies. A lot has to be going on.

[Ram]

Some prattlings from Rumi:


"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase each other
doesn't make any sense."

"There is a way between voice and presence
where information flows.
In disciplined silence it opens.
With wandering talk it closes."


"The Guest House
This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
As an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they're a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond."

[Rodger]

hmmm...maybe there's something to some of them old,ancient
bastards. :)

[empty2]

hmmm...yes. (:)

> > as a guide from beyond."- Hide quoted text -