Advaita - the heart of the matter or a matter of the heart?

[empty2]

There's been a lot of discussion re. compassion, but what about love?
Is it the same?

In India/Nepal there are (at least) 2 words for love.......1) Maya,
for the 'falling in' kind, and 2) Prem, for the 'spiritual' kind.


What about the love that makes a mockery of reason?


Most if not all jnanis have been known to express great devotion.


Love and devotion.......don't those words tug the heartstrings of
Advaitins? Even just a little?


Is it just another thickener, or the soup/broth itself?


Does love need two.............or is it only one?


Or is it a mystery?


Anyone care to comment?

[MarkJ]

To me, it is another term to identify a natural spontaneous 'action'
or 'energy'. (both are also terms used identify another observation).
The natural action may not look like 'love' from all perspectives;
i.e. a man walks by a farm where the farmer is putting a horse 'out of
its misery'.

Anger is an energy. Lust is an energy. Love looks to me like a catch
all for many different energies.

I use the word Love but I really don't think it is any different than
saying 'I care about' or 'This is important to me' or 'I really want
this'.

To me, it's just another meaningless term we use to identify something
naturally occurring.

How many different ways can I use 'dude'? A whole lot.

[Gary]

Who wants to know?
Who falls in love?
Who has great devotion?
Who hates?
Who likes?
Who sucks at games of skill? Me, I tell you.

On Sep 20, 8:29 am, empty2 <pldre...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Mahakali]

empty2 wrote:
> There's been a lot of discussion re. compassion, but what about love? Is it the same?


In India/Nepal there are (at least) 2 words for love.......1)
Maya,for
the 'falling in' kind, and 2) Prem, for the 'spiritual' kind.
What about the love that makes a mockery of reason?

What about the Bhuddist idea of emptiness out of which (unconditional)
love arises? I.e. emptiness out of which everything arises.


I can't answer the other questions because I am not an Avaitin,
however, I doubt that in the coldness of the intellectual
understanding of a jnanis, bhakti is a priority. However, there could
be deep gratitude arising for the guru, the teaching etc etc.


Love does not need two because it is about non-separation...and it is
not a thickener or a soup but a bouillon (Oxo to you).


Kali

[Ram]

Indeed Gary, none other.

:~)

> > Anyone care to comment?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[empty2]

Mmmm...doesn't look like there's much mileage in this one.....might
have to shut up, sit and be still this Sunday!

Dear Kali (not an Advaitin?.....then what is?) as Ram points out
elsewhere, the 'feeling' of the Absolute is an oxymoron (self-
contradictory) since no concept of anything can be applied thereto,
nor even whether anything 'arises' out of it or not......

In this apparently manifested picture, 'compassion' seems to be the
partner of 'suffering' and like gratitude, the seeing of someone else,
whereas the focus of love may also be the 'unseen' and nothing to do
with suffering.......indeed, the 'feeling' may be sufficient unto
itself.

Ramakrishna was one jnani/bhakta who would often lose body-
consciousness and enter samadhi when singing devotional songs about
love for the divine. As Ramprasad, his favorite poet, sang:

"What good is there even in Nirvana?
Mixing water with water -!
See, I do not wish to become sugar,
I want to eat sugar!"

.......and, according to Ramakrishna, there isn't much difference
between the two......although he apparently had some difficulty
sustaining the separation of 'tasting' sugar......in the ecstasy of
love!

So.......is love just another term for an energy or action naturally
occuring, MarkJ? (though every manifestation is spontaneously naturaly
'occurring', yes, I agree) Is it just Oxo, bouillon or whatever the
master-chef uses to thicken the spontaneous broth of the moment that
is.........or could love be transcendental too?

And if love is defined simply as 'attraction', what brings us all
here...to Advaita.......now?

PS. MarkJ, it always interests me that, being compassionate humans, we
lovingly put animals out of their misery.......yet insist on ekeing
out every last drop of suffering in humans!

......just Sunday talking......

[godszen]

empty2 wrote:
> it always interests me that, being compassionate humans, we
> lovingly put animals out of their misery.......yet insist on ekeing
> out every last drop of suffering in humans!

hahaha

[Anandanand]

There are two paths which mind of a seeker follows. One going forward
towards duality and one going backward towards non duality, or the
source. This is just a way to express. The source being expression
less, any expression, imo, is not valid (of course the jnanis know
better). Anything which has expression, imo, needs two (duality).

[godszen]

Anandanand wrote:
> There are two paths which mind of a seeker follows. One going forward
> towards duality and one going backward towards non duality, or the
> source. This is just a way to express. The source being expression
> less, any expression, imo, is not valid (of course the jnanis know
> better). Anything which has expression, imo, needs two (duality).

the sense of duality comes from a sense of "me" and a sense of "you"

this happens simultaneously

subsequently, when the sense of "me" goes away, all of the "you's"
go away too

now here is the interesting part, it is possible to see "everything"
as your self, and it is also possible to see "no-self" in everything

the mind and it's conceptual overlay is a tricky thing

[Mahakali]

Hi Empty

ok...I can change my mind and be called Advaitin: I just don't like
labels.

The feeling of the Absolute is an oximoron and cannot be put into
words. In fact, it is only possible to point to that and not describe
it, as language cannot go so far as to describe the Absolute - if this
would be possible, then, its direct opposite would be found. When the
seeing of the emptiness of all things is occuring, then, love can be
realized.

The seeing of devotion cannot tug the heartstrings in this situation
because it contains the idea of a separate individual performing
something to someone else.

Enjoy your shopping!

Kali

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Rodger]

yet impossible to see without the seeing that is seen as me and you.

duality comes about as this seeing sees no other.

this seeing which sees no other expresses as if the other is...as if
the other is seen.

source,if expressionless,would not,could not express expressionless.

imo would not,could not be valid,imo.

expression does not require two.expresses as if.

life,being,always has it's otherness about it...me and you.

[empty2]

Hi Kali, happy Sunday! You've got more left of it then me!

Well I and I are back from shopping (un-en-lightened except
financially!), - we had a lovely time feeding the 'body' and drumming
up desires for what to buy......mostly more food and clothing for the
'body', - though some would say one of us never went or came back from
anywhere......never left the movie-seat, in fact.....while the other
was just dreaming, as usual.

Glad to know you are an Advaitin now, though I always thought of you
as an Advaitin zen, - though of course, what's in a name?

>"When the seeing of the emptiness of all things is occuring, then, love can be realized".

Empty in, and empty out........maybe it's love, but it only gets a
name this side of heaven, like water rushing to the ocean.

"It must be love, sweet love".......not even the tiniest tugging of
the heartstrings there.....?

>"because it contains the idea of a separate individual performing
something to someone else.

.....or the love of the mighty, bounteous love of the Self of
all.....consuming each and every form of Itself for breakfast?

Jai, Jai, Mata Kali, Ki Jai!

[Rodger]

The seeing of emptiness is an oxymoron.

I don't like labels,yet everything I see I label...pointing to that,to
that,to that.

Rarely do I point to this.
Instead say,not this,not this,not this.

When this is realized,I am that.

I can change my mind and be that instead of that,but never not be this
which is that,or that,or that.

Whether Advaitin or not-Advaitin,I am this... that is, not-two.

[Rodger]

I am this heart of all that matters.

[empty2]

....and this heart is all that matters.

:)

[Rodger]

I and I may be back,but I have no yet gone.What did you buy us?Or,will
it be kept all for you?

Right,what's in a name?
Only me.
And,you.
Back to back.
Empty of other.
Dreaming of two.

[Rodger]

Absolute,Lee.

:)

[Anandanand]

On Sep 21, 2:29 pm, Rodger <rodge...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> imo would not,could not be valid,imo.
>

You may be right imo.

[MarkJ]

Hello empty2

'And if love is defined simply as 'attraction', what brings us all
here...to Advaita.......now?'

IMO - a few reasons maybe:
the desire to boost ego in display of mystical knowledge.
the desire to pass on a belief and affect change in something.
the desire to connect with minds in debate and affirmation
the desire to find a truth that will equal freedom from suffering
the desire to have fun and play
the desire to entertain and be entertained
the desire to practice typing

'PS. MarkJ, it always interests me that, being compassionate humans,

we
lovingly put animals out of their misery.......yet insist on ekeing

out every last drop of suffering in humans!'

Misery loves company.

[Mahakali]

Hi Empty..so, it looks like you've been splashing out on food and
clothes this afternoon! Very nice!


And, yes, as you mentioned in your previous post, it is the love of
the mighty, bounteous love of the Self that supports us and everything
all the time. But remember, what's get consummed is your body and not
You...You is always there.

Have a nice week ahead.

Kali

[empty2]

....and there I was thinking it was for the pure love of Advaita!

Duh...silly me. :)

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[empty2]

Hi Kali-so,

>"You...You is always there."

Pity......I and I were kinda hoping one would get eaten by the other
so to all intents and purposes there'd be no more I and you.

(Kali hasn't had Her breakfast yet!)

[empty2]

>"Have a nice week ahead".

Ah yes, the week ahead.......from now on Monday to now at midday
Saturday.......then AdvaitaNow on Sunday...just like now.

A lot of nows, but who nows? Maybe only one.

You too,

Empty-doo-da-day!

PS. did anyone check it out....... http://www.beempty.com/theavadhutagita160.htm
....?

On Sep 22, 12:54 am, Mahakali <Maha.Ka...@googlemail.com> wrote:

[Rodger]

Yes,checked it out.Thanks for sharing,Empty2.

On Sep 21, 6:22 pm, empty2 <pldre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >"Have a nice week ahead".
>
> Ah yes, the week ahead.......from now on Monday to now at midday
> Saturday.......then AdvaitaNow on Sunday...just like now.
>
> A lot of nows, but who nows? Maybe only one.
>
> You too,
>
> Empty-doo-da-day!
>

> PS. did anyone check it out.......http://www.beempty.com/theavadhutagita160.htm

[Mahakali]

Hi Empty...you are so funny....:-)

Kali

[winterpoodle]

When it quietly sweeps you off your feet.......call it what you want.
The more that's said the deeper you dig away from it.
Love, all the same

[Richard]

Welcome to the group.

[Gary]

winterpoodle:

I wasn't sure if I should approve your membership. We have had twenty
gmail applicants appear at one time. Someone is flooding many of the
groups with bogus memberships. I approved yours on a lark and now I'm
glad that I did. Welcome.
Gary

[Anandanand]

Welcome

[Marcus]

.

Greetings Winterpoodle, enjoy the ride.



Thanks Empty2 great link.

http://www.beempty.com/theavadhutagita160.htm


Sri Tulsiram Baba, said :-

“I, the purest pure, homogeneous reality, alone am immortal because I
am bodiless as well as birthless. How can it be said again that I am
deluded, when hallucination never exists in 'Me' – the Super
Awareness?”



Sri Siddhu Baba, said :-

“One single Truth is filled up tightly within its own periphery.
Distinction between the pervading and the pervader exists only in the
eyes of ignorance. To He who is beyond limitation, sense perception is
quite impossible to achieve, either through direct or indirect means.
'He' is in no way perceived by ignorance, that is why 'He' is regarded
as a 'Free Man'.”


Congratulations kali,
On graduating as a Advaitin although I always thought you where.
Don’t worry about the warring of labels thing, it helps others colour
in their picture. Just don’t allow yourself to believe in them.

Empty2 asked ;- “compassion, but what about love?
Is it the same?”

Only opinion :-
Yes, just at different levels of intensity. The band-width for this
human psychological occurrence is very wide. Ranging from mild
interest to supreme ecstasy. The condition drives it owner beyond
the confines of self preservation. Highly recommended for any
ailments of the physical body as it simulates the immune system,
endorphins and adrenaline. Clearly one of pleasure attributes of the
human genome. Warning. Can also be the sauce of great pain and
suffering when left unfrequented or denied.

God-consciousness is described a becoming pure love. Which perhaps is
the best wordy way of depicting the emancipation of the human spirit
from the illusions of separateness and duality. The logical way of
managing this powerful human occurrence is to direct it at all
“things” simultaneously, including the self. In the absence of
judgement, all the phenomena is equal. This maintained, ho what a
wonderful world. (luey Armstrong)

Love the essential altruism.

There is no opposite to love. Only it’s denial or indifference, which
leads to fear which generates anger.

Watch out for that unconditional love it can bit you on the ass.


Love you all, always.




.



On Oct 15, 7:23 am, Anandanand <hgdin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Welcome

[empty2]

>"Thanks Empty2 great link.

http://www.beempty.com/theavadhutagita160.htm "

Yo Marcus, you got the new improved version with 'rogues gallery' pics
of Nepali avadhutas! Glad you liked it. Distinctions as to who said
what seem to get harmlessly blurred here, and even Sri Tirtha Lal gets
carried away with the spirit of Dattatreya's utterances. A few of
these people I know a little about and intend to add an "about the
pictures" section soon. The others I intend to find out what I can
next visit to Nepal. The pictures are from a full version of the
Avadhuta Gita in Nepali by TL which would be nice to get translated
one day.

I always remember Sri Tirtha Lal catching his breath at the sight of a
large totally naked man at Allahabad station as we passed in a
rickshaw. He insisted on stopping and getting out, then said to wait
for the man to come over......which he did, dreadlocks and all,
accompanied by a few dogs. TL offered him a cigarette but he said he
didn't smoke. He stood there for a while, then wandered off with the
dogs. TL was in a kind of ecstasy for a while after, saying "That man
is a king!" again and again.

The glory of India is that such people are traditionally revered as
the epitome of human achievement. Having nothing, they are everything.

(did someone mention global financial crisis?)

Welcome Winterpoodle, .....you sound very cosy (:)

[herenow]

Yeeeaaarrrhhhh !!!!

Welcome aboard matey!

Pay no attention to the verbosity...they/we? don't really mean
anything by it.

[Marcus]

.


Thanks Empty2.
Much appreciated, I am building this temple with very small pieces
each day. Each piece is much appreciated.

That story of a chance encounter with the apparent “drop-out” of
society.

“"That man is a king!" again and again.”

When the Guru seemed inspired I strangely understand. Often when
witnessing the homeless in London one can-not help but question. Are
these people in fact, totally free of the delusion of reality and
enjoying being present in it’s purist form. In the absence of
judgement and in full acceptance of their right to chose. Have they
let go of all that which binds us to the illusion of self. Looking
dirty and being smelly is only my judgement. Totally free,
unperturbed by the expectations of others and in total harmony with
the self. Must add. London is filled with refuges and aid workers
for these people but most prefer to sleep on the streets.

Tricky ground. Not sure if I could walk around naked. Don’t want to
put people off their dinner.

Or is possible to argue this is too much freedom, as if there could be
such a thing ???

Thanks again.



.

> > > Welcome- Hide quoted text -

[empty2]

Who's to say, Marcus?

It seems risky to generalise, though as Dylan sang "When you got
nothing, you got nothing to lose".

But they do say......it takes one to know one.

.....on the other hand, seeing all as manifesting the supreme and only
Self sounds pretty good too.

Nakedness is frowned on in India too.......but not regarding these
people. There is an epithet of the Supreme - I think it's
"Chidambaram" (anybody know?) that means 'clothed in space'.

[Richard]

Digambara=clothed in space
(dig=space; ambara=garment)

The Digambara were an ancient sect in India whom the ancient Greeks
labeled gymnosophists (naked philosophers).

"The image of Dakshina Kalika is awesome. She has a fanged mouth,
looks terrifying, has dishevelled hair, has four arms and is adorned
with a necklace of human skulls. She holds a newly severed head and a
swords, her other hands shows the mudras which dispell fear and grant
boons. She is the colour of a thundercloud, dusky, and is *completely
naked (digambara, clothed in space)*. Blood trickles from the sides of
her mouth, and her earrings are two corpses of young boys. She has
rising, large swelling breasts, and is seated in intercourse on the
body of a corpse. She laughs loudly. The corpse is Mahadeva Shiva in
his form of Mahakala and the whole scene is within the cremation
ground."

[empty2]

Thanks Richard.......memory ain't what it used to be!

Ah, Kali!

Sri Ramakrishna once had a vision of Her emerging pregnant from the
Ganges, giving birth, nurturing then eating the baby.

Such is life!

The ultimate 'femme fatale"!

[Anandanand]

Ramkrishna was also a Paramahansa (similar to Digambar).

[winterpoodle]

Hi Gary, Anandanand.Richard,Marcus and Herenow and all,

Thanks for your welcome.

Good to be aboard.

There was a natural attraction. The danger is the spiral into theory
traps the joy is singing from the fountain within.

Today I was to join a retreat for three days with Stuart Schwartz in
Aherlow Castle Co Tiperarry. That would be the first 'retreat' I have
ever attempted. Keen to meet him in the flesh although we have
communicated. I can't reccomend his book 'The Great Undoing' enough.
He was a 'pupil' of Robert Adams (The Silence of the Heart) who
himself spent the last three years of Ramana's life at Arunachala. But
lifehas its own plans I am confined to the hard floor with backpain.
The cause? Changing a lightbulb. Now; the discoursive mind could have
a field day with such a scenario. For such discourse I enter the skin
of my alter ego 'Rudra' whose musings along with others may interest
ye at www.therudrachronicles.blogspot.com

Love and light

Winterpoodle

> > > Anyone care to comment?- Hide quoted text -